 I think it's about time to get started. I'm Cliff Lynch the director of CNI and I'd like to welcome you to this project briefing, which is part of our spring 2020 virtual member meeting. And that virtual member meeting will actually run all the way through the end of May. So, plenty more still to come. We have a presentation today on fostering user experience culture across campus and I have a feeling that this in some ways is taken on a new timeliness in the last month or two. All of a sudden, virtually everything we're doing now is technology mediated and hence utterly sensitive to user experience factors. Rebecca Blankenstone from the University of Arizona libraries will give our presentation. We will take questions at the end. There is a Q&A tool down at the bottom of your screen. If you use that, it will bring up a text box and you can enter questions at any point as they occur to you during the presentation. And we'll batch them up and do them at the end. Diane Goldenberg Hart will materialize after Rebecca's presentation and moderate the Q&A. And with that, it just remains to me to thank Rebecca for doing this. And thank you all for joining us. And over to you, Rebecca. Sure. Thanks, Cliff. Hi, everybody. Thank you for being here. It is really nice to be here. I appreciate you taking the time out of your days, which are strange days these days to come and meet with me and hear a little bit about some of the things I've been working on at the University of Arizona. So I'm going to be speaking about some initiatives that we've been undertaking in the last couple of years to really foster a UX culture across our campus. So building community, removing barriers to UX research and design, and also supporting the building of expertise among our staff, our faculty, and our students. So I'm Rebecca. I've been working at the University of Arizona about 15 years now. I started out in instruction and reference. I did some instructional design type of work. And then I moved and shifted into user experience, which I've been focusing on about the past 10 years, primarily by leading our website usability and our content strategy efforts. Over the years I shifted from our instruction team to our technology team, where I, in the technology team, I managed a web design and UX team. And then the past three years I've been housed within our administration of the library. So kind of broadening the scope of my work and helping tie UX practices into our strategic planning process and our assessment efforts. And also helping to kind of build that capacity for UX through consulting and training among our staff. And as any good UXer kind of working hard to improve all of the things. So whether it's our websites and our digital space or physical spaces, and also our services and how people interact with them. And the rest of the team at our libraries that I oversee. And so I say that we're a small yet mighty team because we actually only have two full time people, which is myself as a UX strategist, and then Bob who is our UX designer he's here on the left. The team is made up of student employees and interns and the students staff come from a variety of backgrounds including English graphic design, data science, MIS. And I'm very fortunate this semester because we've had three interns and three student workers, and we have one called Rachel who is not pictured here but this is kind of just to give you a sense of the team. There's a kind of variety of design research and content projects across the library. So right now, for example, we're working on our website menu architecture. So kind of the information architecture of our websites. We do a lot with website contents improvements, and we're working on improving our room reservation process and policies, which I think will shift a lot post pandemic, and also improving our interviewing and our hiring processes to be more inclusive. We do a bit of sort of traditional UX and also internal UX has become something we've more recently taken on our model is kind of like UX as a service. So we're similar to an internal design agency where we support efforts across the library. And because we are very limited in our capacity and our staffing, I'm also focusing a lot lately on what people call design ops and research ops. And so you may have heard of dev ops, which is essentially how do we improve what we do how we do it in order to be more effective more efficient and more impactful. So I'm doing things like expanding our reach to toolkits through templates and through training to really broaden the scope and the impact of our work. And for a little bit more context, I'm going to spend just a moment now talking about how I define UX. And so it is a turn that's not always understood the same when you ask from person to person. And when people think of UX, they might often focus on the visual design aspect, or the user research aspects, or the assessment aspect, but in practice and the way that I think about it at my library and on our campus. UX is really this multi disciplinary venture. So UX as a discipline and as a profession includes kind of these three core components of research design and implementation. So it includes psychology and anthropology and people who study human behavior and human technology interaction. So how services and products made people feel. It also includes obviously the visual and interaction design components. Many UX designers will have their masters in fine arts or visual communication. And thinking about how to express ideas and communicate in ways that make sense to people. And then there's the nuts and bolts of implementing the designs, implementing the services and the products. So many web developers, programmers and engineers are going to play a key role in how something actually works and functions to then achieve the experience that we're going for. And another way to frame UX is looking at it through the life cycle of design thinking. So this is a graphic by Neilson Norman group that represents the design thinking process, which is often used in product design and innovation. It's a very creative exploratory process that you've probably heard a little bit about. But put simply, the idea is that we need to first understand human behaviors. So human challenges their motivations. With that deep understanding of our users of our audience, we can then explore viable solutions and then we can test them with real people. And so once we test them with that ensuring that we're meeting the goals that we're setting out to achieve. So US researchers designers writers testers and problem solvers really play a key role throughout the product development life cycle. Does that make sense. It's kind of harping in a virtual environment I can't see the feedback of hopefully that makes sense. If it doesn't feel free to ask questions in the chat. And so why does this all matter. And Cliff kind of mentioned this as well that I think it matters even more now, given our current situation our current circumstances. But let's think for a minute about why it matters in the context of libraries and higher education. So good UX practices are really going to be critical and I think even more critical to meeting the mission of our institutions. So we need to advance student success. We need to advance research or productivity. And in order to do that we really need to understand the needs, the expectations and the challenges of our students and our faculty in order to better serve them. So UX is going to help us design better websites, but it's also going to help us design better systems that are services and spaces, like keeping those end users in mind and how they behave how they interact. And then UX is also going to help us focus in on what has the most impact. So when we have a clear and a deep understanding of what matters most to our users, we can then better target our effort and target our resources towards those things, especially important now right. So now that I've convinced you that UX is important, which you probably already knew and that's why you're here. Let's just talk a little bit about how this now evolving on my campus. So it's primarily through a community that we call UX at UA. UX at UA was started in fall of 2017. This was after a conversation that I had with a designer who's in our research office. Her name is Gianna Biacca. And we realized that people were doing UX work across our campus, but that very few people actually had UX in their job titles. So we didn't have an easy way to connect with one another. And so I really appreciated finding a fellow UX minded colleague, and we both realized that there really wasn't an easy way to make those sorts of connections on our campus. And one of the reasons is there's no single UX program. There's no UX degree. There's no central office for UX on our campus. Very few campuses have that type of thing. And there's people that are doing UX work and that are studying UX methods across many departments, many disciplines. We wanted to create a mechanism for finding these other UXers on our campus, and then using that to build relationships, building collaborations and learn about UX together. We started out small. The first couple of meetups were just that fall semester 2017. We watched webinars we went out for food and drinks afterwards. And then slowly but surely we got a little more traction. And by the end of 2018, we had grown pretty immensely. So in early 2019, we decided to create a website. And at that point we established a mission for what we were really all about what UX at UA was. We wanted to share what we are as a learning community. So we're a community of practice. And our aim is to grow our UX expertise across our campus. And we do this in a number of ways. Primarily we started by doing professional development and networking activities through things like meetups. And we're also providing a low barrier, easy to access tools and techniques that people can use and adapt. Our aims are really for UX enthusiasts at all levels, whether you just heard about UX, or you're working full time in the field to feel both empowered and inspired. So to develop skills and tool sets to level up and build your expertise. And also seeing community and relationship building as a core part of our mission so fostering connections within you with UXers both within Tucson and also beyond. And so we do find that it's not just people on campus who are interested in connecting with us. And when we do these meetups we find that about a third of the people who attend are actually not affiliated with our campus, but they're out there in the industry. They're working in the field of UX or they're trying to transition into the field of UX. So this is I'm sorry it's really dry. I was telling the speakers this morning, we're hitting 100 degrees today in Tucson. This is my first time this year which I'm very excited about, but I'm in a dry space I'm drinking some water. I apologize. So a leadership team of organizers formed over the past couple of years. And this is where we're at today. So it includes faculty and staff from a variety of departments from the libraries you can see that Bob, America, Emma and yashu are all part of the organizing team. And she leads the technical writing program for the English department, and she had a new major that was recently approved in technical communication that has a core UX research methods class. And we also have Eliza and Sarah who are in our digital learning office, and they play a key role in designing interfaces for students and instructors within our course management system, which is D2L. And Emma works with the College of Humanities. She's a recent graduate of the School of Information, where she focuses on human computer interaction, and she's done a UX career path. And then we have Victoria, who works in the business school, and she leads a team of students software developers within the business school. So this team you can see pretty diverse lots of different backgrounds here, and we meet biweekly to connect on projects, organize events and act as kind of that connection hub for campus UX focused initiatives. And we have a number of communication channels. So I mentioned that our websites launched last year, about a year ago from now. And it's a place where we post events but we also post resources. So links to past presentations templates and tools. And we're trying to build out that section on the site. We also have a section called learn about UX which is geared towards the newcomers. And we have a section on campus initiatives which I'll talk about a little bit later. Slack was our first communication channel and it continues to be an active space where people are posting jobs, they're posting articles. They're asking for feedback on a variety of things. And then we have meetup, which is where we post our monthly meetups to get people to RSVP and come to those. We just started Instagram last summer, or sorry last semester, where we highlight people. We also share photos from events. And we've experimented with a motivational Mondays where we quote designers and researchers to kind of inspire those new UXers. This semester we also created a LinkedIn space to promote our events and share articles from medium. And I'll talk about our medium publication a little bit later. The site here at UXUA.Arizona.edu, if you're interested in taking a look, you can see a little bit more there. So I did mention that Slack is our primary communication tool. I also would call it our community building tool. We have just over 300 members on our Slack workspace. I pulled a screenshot here from our introductions channel to give you a sense of the makeup of the group. You can see that we have some faculty and instructors who are teaching UX related coursework, such as prototyping, product design testing. We have faculty from business, from library and information studies, fine arts, computer science, anthropology, just to name a few. So again, really multidisciplinary. We have graduate and PhD students who are considering a UX career path. Most often we find this, a lot of PhD students are interested in UX research. So Alex in the example here is a PhD student in sociology. We have other popular disciplines like psychology, linguistics, English and anthropology. And when these PhD students start looking for jobs outside of academia, they often find UX positions becoming more common. We also have a lot of staff from different units across campus. So such as Maya. Many of them are working on a website redesigns or other digital projects and are looking for support and expertise. We also have people that work in campus IT, campus web services, disability resources, and our Office of Instruction and Assessment. And we're getting quite a few undergrads as well. So Jason, for example, is studying computer science. He's heard about UX. Undergrads, we often seem to see students interested in technical or business side of UX, where grad students are often more interested in the research side. It's one of the things we're missing. So we do have meetups. We used to have in person meetups every month for the past couple of years. And these tended to be off site at a local pub of some sort, we would have a mix of informal networking, as well as a formal presentation or a structured activity. Some of the types of topics we've covered are presentations on cognitive bias on creating a UX portfolio. We had a design thinking 101 workshop. And we've also done activities around persona building journey mapping and card sorting for information architecture. And so now we have shifted these two virtual meetups during the pandemic. We had our first fully virtual meetup earlier in April using zoom. And this was on the topic of remote work. So we actually had four UX professionals from across the country come and talk about their experience working remotely, including how they collaborate, communicate, stay motivated during isolation. This is Marcel and Marcel is a product designer from Washington, and he's talking about the ergonomics of his workspace setup. So I've covered some of the main ways that we're building out this community. So now I'm going to shift and talk about a few specific initiatives on how we're working to reduce barriers to UX research and UX design. Something that we've been doing in the library for a few years now is called tiny cafe, and it's essentially a pop up station that allows us to do lightweight user research for low cost and low effort. We set up a table in a high traffic area, provide some drinks and snacks in exchange for a few minutes of the participants time. This is a photo of my two colleagues America and Laura stationed outside the health sciences library, doing some quick usability testing with a medical student. But word of tiny cafe has gotten out on campus, in part because we've talked about it at some of our meetups. And so it's becoming more visible or it was becoming more visible in the library lobby we would have it every week so people would come by walk by and see it. And so it's now something that we're exploring providing as a campus service. So the library is really well positioned, and that we have space and we have a lot of students coming in and out of our doors on a daily basis. In normal times, of course, and not long before the pandemic outbreak, our colleagues at campus it asked that they could run their own tiny cafe in the library. So they did. They tested wireframe of the student engagement hub, which is something that's going to impact every student on our campus. And they scheduled these bi weekly. So they started coming in every other week. And we've also had advisors from the think tank, which is next door to the main library, come in and do their own tiny cafe to get feedback on a video and a new service that they were offering. We haven't yet figured out how to replicate this in the world of physical distancing, but we are hopeful to continue to share those kind of lightweight models for UX testing to encourage broader, more frequent more iterative testing of products and services being developed across campus. So similarly, our tech core partners, which are over at the College of Management started hosting lightweight UX UI testing within the library this past semester. So they use our new VR studio, which are the perfect technology setup for them. They had snacks available as students to complete a number of tasks on the computers that we had set up, and they were able to mirror the students screens on a larger screen to observe their interactions on the screen. So similar to tiny cafe, they scheduled these regularly to try and get feedback, iterate on their design, and then get more feedback. Another thing that we're trying to build up is a set of tools and templates. So this is a screenshot of our websites. I've been starting to think of this as a playbook that we can then share broadly so that anyone, even a UX newbie can come to this playbook, get the tools that they need, and then dive into some UX research testing and design. So this is still in the early stages, but it's become a priority of mine to kind of build up in the coming months. One of our other initiatives. And this is one of the biggest barriers to UX research is access to participants. So the tiny cafe model won't always work, especially when you have more targeted audience in mind. So we've been exploring how we might create a participant pool to use for recruitment, and the idea is that it would allow people to easily recruit for a variety of UX studies. So our campus IT, our Office of Student Engagement and Career Development and our research office are all really interested in this. And we've prototyped a simple sign up form that asks people to help us improve the university, and we're looking at an email management tool like Mailchimp to manage this on the back end. At a campus level, though, I will say this gets really tricky. We're working with privacy, permissions, human subjects research, IRB. And so at this moment we've kind of focused in on something a bit more sustainable or attainable, I guess. So what we're working on now is a small scale pilot just within the library on this participant pool. So since we have a lot of student employees who are now working remotely and can't do their normal library jobs, our pilot consists of those students. So we have 85 library student employees that are now in a participant pool, and we're using this through the rest of the semester the next couple weeks. And obviously we're doing this all remote, these are all remote opportunities. And we're mostly doing asynchronous things, things that we can send out to students that they can complete on their own time. One advantage of this approach is that students are getting paid for their work time. So one of the challenges of a remote tiny cafe is we can't provide food and coffee, right? What's the incentive? The students are compensated for their time if they're student employees, but this works pretty well under the current circumstances. And this is a screenshot of the form that we use to get students to sign up. The header reads make an impact without being here physically. We used type form for this, which is great because it has an integration with MailChimp, so it helps us manage that database on the back end. And we're hoping that what we learned from this pilot is going to help inform our broader participant pool that we're hoping for down the road. So I talked about building community and reducing barriers to UX research and design. And now I'm going to talk through some ways that we're helping people across campus to level up their skills and build that expertise among our students, our staff and our faculty. So since last fall, we've been offering a drop-in consulting once a week in the library. We've since moved these virtually, so now we do these through Zoom, but we're still having them every Monday and we're still having people stop in. And the aim of these drop-in hours is to help people in crafting user research studies, creating prototypes of designs, making sense of findings if they do UX research. I don't know what to do with the results. And also just improving, giving them feedback on their designs, on their contents, whatever it is that they're creating. And this has been pretty successful overall. You never know what's going to happen when you do a drop-in hour, but we've had a pretty good turnout considering only two instances of all of the weeks of the past two semesters did no one show up. So we've always had people coming by and asking us questions. We did have one particular drop-in hour where we had seven people come by in one hour, which was pretty good. We are trying to get a good sense of the overall needs of our campus. So one thing that we're doing is asking people who come to the drop-in hour to fill out a short survey afterwards. And so we found that the audience includes students, staff and faculty, and the types of questions people have range from getting feedback on their websites to how to approach an overall design to tips on user research and recruitment. So as we expand kind of the UX as a service, especially if you're kind of broad on the scope to think about campus level, this is kind of helping us inform the types of services that we might offer that would fit the needs that we're hearing about. I did mention that we have some courses that teach UX in different departments. So here are two examples from the semester, the School of Law and the English department. So because we have this community now, we've been able to connect people to these instructors to strengthen their teaching. So for example, we had people from the UX at UA community give guest lectures and facilitate workshops and even review student assignments. So student prototypes giving them feedback on that. And we're hoping to do across disciplinary students project showcase that includes students from different courses showing off their UX projects. We're not doing it in May as we originally hoped pandemic kind of shifted that plan, but we're hoping maybe to try something for the fall semester. I mentioned earlier that we started a medium publication so it's called UX Ed and the tagline is sticky problems and design stories from the University of Arizona community. So we're using this as a platform to share our work and again level up and inform the broader University community about tools techniques, best practices, ideas of things that they can do in their own context. So the publication right now includes project write ups, tutorials and reflections. I've highlighted here, an article that my colleague Bob wrote about how we redesign our library hours on our website. And so that is all I have for today we've got, I think four minutes left for questions. So I'd love to hear your thoughts and questions. Thank you, Rebecca. That was a whirlwind of information and fascinating. And I just want to be sure you have plenty of time to take a drink and relax a little bit. Thank you. I can appreciate it really. It's 100 degrees outside. I'm inside but there's no AC in this room. Oh my gosh earlier I had this really nice fan going I'm like that's gonna be too loud. Yeah, 100 degrees boy. Wow, I'm really impressed. I had a lot of stuff to cover to that was fascinating. Really just how user focused that project is how you've managed to bring in entities from across campus and even into industry. Really impressive and a lot of people are already asking questions so I don't want to delay and I want to get right to their questions and just a reminder if you want to type in your question in the q amp a box Rebecca will be happy to answer that live. So just starting out with one question from Steven Bell right now. Have you been able to get staff in other areas of the library such as research services or access services to use design thinking as a process for problem finding and solution development. Yes, I could give a whole nother presentation on something we did a couple years ago which I have presented on before. We shifted our whole strategic planning process to be a design thinking process. And so we had it was, you had to opt in to the process but we had 117 of our 150 staff opt in to participate. So the majority of our staff have now actually been trained in design thinking methods and mindsets and thinking. And so that was a huge win I think for us and it was timed really well when you X moved from technology into administration to be like oh I understand now why there's a relationship between user experience strategic planning assessments. It's a human centered approaches to what we do and how we prioritize our work and how we make decisions. So I think that that yes we have had people. We do a lot of some of the projects I'm working on right now are with research and learning librarians on their LibGuides on content that they're putting together and to support instructors on the websites and tutorials we had an email this morning from one of our instructional design librarians. They're working on creating some new tutorials that they want student feedback on. So they're actually using the participant pool now to get some feedback from students on tutorials they're creating. So, so yes I've been very fortunate and it's, it's definitely been fostering across the library as well. Not as many of them come to our UX at UA meetups as I would like, but sometimes I'll be surprised at who does come so we'll have a medical librarian who I had no idea was interested in this. We'll show up and say oh I'm actually building a website as part of this grant project and I want feedback. And so yeah it's, and I think even more so in the virtual space that we're all in now, we're going to see more of that. That's really interesting and, and are you offering drinks and snacks to to attract them. It's so hard to do I've been trying to figure out how to do like a virtual pizza party. Some company that was doing that and I couldn't get approval for funding to just have everyone on my team get pizza delivered to their house at the same time. Oh, needs to get creative and incentives. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for that great question Steven and moving along. We have a question from Matt Jordan now. Matt says I noticed that you didn't seem to mention anyone from the campus marketing in the leadership team of UX at UA. Perhaps I missed it if you did is that by design or are there competing initiatives there. This is not by design and interestingly so Tia Peterson was one of our primary organizers and she was in our marketing unit on campus and then she left and got a UX job in Phoenix. So we did have someone who was key to marketing on our campus that was one of our actual organizers. It was interesting though because sometimes there's a tension between marketing and UX. I've seen this in the industry as well where it's sort of the UX pulling from users and marketing pushing to users and sometimes there's a little tension there. We haven't really experienced much of that but she was very much our kind of UX advocate within marketing and then she left and they just filled her position two weeks ago. So I'm hoping that we'll get more of marketing back in there. It's not by design and I would love to have them partner with us. That was a great question. Thanks Matt. We have a question from Boaz Nadad mains right now from who asked do you provide certification to students working on this program. We don't but we've talked about it so that was one of the reasons our student engagement and career development was really interested is they would love to do if nothing else like a badging program around UX. We've talked about the scaffolding approach of first the student participates in a UX study of some sort, then they observe someone else doing it then they help take notes and then eventually they get to be the one facilitating the study. And so we've talked about building that in and having a structure where if it's not a certification is some kind of badging or something. I don't currently have that, but it's definitely there's interest in it, using kind of the experiential learning aspect to because that's something that our student engagement folks are really interested in and preparing people for jobs as well and having a thing they can put on their resume. Yeah. Okay. And another question he he asked in the library context. Sometimes the UX channel is used to drive particular changes that are not always popular with staff. Have you thought about ways by which the UX agenda is less controversial. It's, I mean, I've been doing this work for a long time so I don't let it get to me when things don't seem as user focused as I would love for them to be because there's a lot of times are competing priorities and there's organizational goals and user goals and how do you find that beautiful then diagram where it's everyone is happy and everyone wins. A lot of it's yeah it's sort of culture shift and it's prioritization I do think that having our administration identify UX as a strategic initiative essentially that that's given us more cloud that's given us more influence. But it's also I've been working here for 15 years so I built a lot of relationships and I've, I've, I'm not the only one like it's not just me UX library and it's, there's people that really care about us across the organization and all different departments. So kind of finding those champions and helping make that happen. We don't do. I don't think we do a lot of controversial things. People think they're controversial they're not telling me so I think it's maybe just over time. The hardest part was probably when we did our big content strategy initiative where we had to delete a bunch of content on the website and remove permissions from people, things like that because it was. We had a lot of redundant contents a lot of out of date stuff a lot of bad links things like that. So that was probably the hardest controversial shift but then that's like a couple years and now we're. Yeah, resolved I guess we figured out how to do that well so. That's an interesting question an interesting challenge. Thank you. Thank you for asking that. And now moving on to another question from Steven Bell what do non library UX professionals think of library websites, or the products we get from third party vendors. Do you want them to take a look or try to show them what we're dealing with moderate to high friction interfaces that we don't have much control over or input on UX. Yeah, it's some. So I was, I went to a virtual conference last week which is the UX conference by Nielsen Norman group. A lot of times I think a library's have it so bad because we're so dependent on our third party tools and most of them are so terribly designed and the interface was not the priority and it's we see students and faculty struggle and struggle and struggle every day with these things. But I felt a little bit better going to that industry conference and realizing it's not just us, like there's people in insurance, and there's people in financial companies and a lot of them do deal with their party products as well. But at the same time, I think it's a huge challenge for libraries because we don't have much control and if we do and you make a change to something and then they do an update, then everything breaks. And so how do we make those decisions around that. I think it's. Yeah, it's, it's a challenge I do I mean go it's the original question. What do they think of library websites or the products. I think it depends on the library website. I was, I was, this was sort of shocking to me but we went to a user journey mapping activity with students from across campus. That was run by our central it because now our central it is more UXC focused than they used to be, and they were asking about websites across campus and what they thought of them, and the library website was one of their favorites, which made me really happy and really surprised. I think it really depends on the library website and how much effort you put into making it usable and responsive to student needs, but the third party tools mostly are really. I mean it depends that always depends but some of our discovery tools or databases don't follow conventions and patterns that users are used to. So that's why they don't do as well. They're harder for people to opt in and start using them. If they don't follow their mental model of what they think a search experience is supposed to be like, for example, very interesting. And Steve also asks, how would you run. How would you run things like tiny cafe or UX studio, if we were mostly virtual in the fall, you've probably thought about this. Yeah, we are having that question next Tuesday so I'll get back to Tuesday afternoon have it all figured out of the heart. I mean, how do we get the incentives. I think we have the technology to do the thing is just how to get people to sign on to do the thing with you. So there's there's a tool called Miro, which I've been using this week, which is essentially a way to replicate the sticky note and whiteboard experience virtually. I do another thing in my library called the talkback board, where we just stick a whiteboard in the lobby and ask a question and have students fill out responses. We can't do that anymore either. Can we do a virtual version of that. But then it's how do you reach the people and incentivize the people to participate. So that's the biggest challenge I think I think we can design the things. We are using some scheduling software so my interns are doing some scheduled usability tests. Right now it is just with student employees because they're getting paid to do it. I don't like the idea of taking students time and not giving them anything in return, but maybe we put maybe we do a raffle where they're entered in a raffle, and someone wins an iPad and mail it to them. So we're thinking about those types of creative ways to incentivize. But I still want to do it I want to keep the the ongoing lightweight UX testing fixture alive. So if you have to do it virtually we'll figure out a way. Yeah, or maybe even small gift cards or something like that. Gift cards are really hard for us to do there's paperwork and social security numbers and it's a hard one. Yeah, that makes sense. We have another another question that just came in as well. Who updates content on your website is it a subgroup the UX team any library staff. Yeah, so we have a train highly trained pool of content managers who go through a specific training. We have an editorial style guide we, I think we have somewhere between 12 and 15, something like that content managers that are dispersed across the library and departments. But we have a slack channel we have an email list we have meetings with them. So it is kind of a very coordinated approach. But yeah, we kind of locked down there's, yeah, I teach a whole course on that content strategy and how we did that. But it is, it's very structured and yeah, it's trained people. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure if you've gotten all that trouble. You want to make sure that you maintain the standards that you implemented sure. Yeah. Well, if anybody has any more questions, please go ahead and type them in I do see that we are at the, we're beyond the end of our time and Rebecca's been most gracious to stick around and answer these questions. Just a fascinating talk an interesting topic and clearly a tremendous amount of interest so thank you again for coming to see and I to talk about it thanks to all of our attendees for coming and spending some time with us here this afternoon. I'm seeing thank yous coming in for you Rebecca. So, you know, virtual applause out there.