 I'm Marianne Sasaki, you're watching Life in the Law. I'm thrilled today to have our guest today, another really difficult get. I've been begging him to come on the show for since I started, and finally he acquiesced. So I really appreciate it. I have Manmi Rana from Clay Chapman. Did I say that correctly? You said it right, yes. Okay. I go by Manu at the office. We refer to him as Manu at the office. We work together and we're here to talk about the life and times of a young lawyer in Hawaii. So once you- I'm not young actually. You're young. Young lawyer division is 36 or cut. But that's just- I'm talking about a law. Okay, okay, all right. The middle tier, the middle level associated with the experience we're gonna talk about today. So but tell me about why did you go to law school? I know you went to the University of Hawaii and you graduated cum laude, which is very impressive. So did you always want to be a lawyer or- Well yeah, I decided after college actually. Oh yeah? I was looking to be a teacher. A teacher? Yeah, but then I saw I got student loans. Right. And no, and you know, I'll make the big bucks. I know, yeah, yeah. Well actually no, what I started off with I did AmeriCorps while I was at Seattle University. Really? And I used to tutor like homeless kids or transitional children. And I just didn't like what was going on within the educational system. Oh, it's horrible, right? It's falling apart. And then also, oh sorry. No, no, go ahead. Also found out about their families. And one of the issues that kinda got highlighted during my last year at Seattle University was a lot of single parents, but also particularly single mothers. And especially if they're going through abuse and a lot of transitional families. That's a lot to take on. You really have to have a super calling for that, right? So it's something I wanted to be interested in. And so I wanted to be able to represent them. And I know one particular lady, she went through a divorce and it was not a great result for her or for a child. Yeah. And so that kinda started. I wanted to do my interest in public interest, but also particularly working with domestic violence. Yeah. And you did that, didn't you? Yeah, I did. My first internship, actually my first internship in Hawaii and then my first job, I mean, attorney job was with the domestic violence clearinghouse, which is now the domestic violence action center. I can't, I mean, that is such hard work. I mean, I've done just a very little bit of family law and it's really, really, it takes a special person. Well, it was good. I mean, in the sense of the work, it was, I mean. Challenging. It was not, it's nonprofit. So it was exactly the big bucks or anything like that. But coming out of law school, the good thing about the domestic violence action center, and this is what family law in general is that you're kinda thrown in court as soon as you start. They do, they send you, they don't care. Yeah, and me, we started with TROs. And it was working with victims and representing them in family court. You know, TROs, it wasn't like, it's not something that you'll see on TV or anything or something that's kind of... Yeah, but there's so many. But it wanted to professionalize it through you in court. So you have to face a judge, you have to face opposing counsel, you deal with your client, and yes, you help her, not only you, usually her, sometimes me, you gotta help them in court, but also what happens outside of court. Right, you're sort of like a counselor, like shoulder to lean on, and like, I mean like a personal counsel, a counsel legal counsel, but also like they, I think you solve a lot of problems that aren't legal problems too, I mean, helping people. Yeah, but I think that's part of being an attorney. Is helping people? Yeah, I mean, especially for your client. I mean, you may have different goals. That's the right attitude. You gotta be a counselor to them, and you know, I mean, and Julia, I had a situation with shiny attorney and he was a counselor, and so that kind of helped me out. Right. So I think that's not, somebody can learn a law school, that's something that's got to offer. That's something that you're sort of born with that you learn in life, right? I, yeah, I wish I was more of a counselor. I think you're more sympathetic than I am. What are you very sympathetic? I don't think so. I like to do deals. I like, you know, transactions and you know, but so. You still gotta take care of your clients. I do, and I would do anything for my clients. I love my clients, I would do anything for them. And you gotta counsel them, although they may have different obstacles. Right, no. It's still a counselor. I'm there for them 24-7, they know that. And they take advantage of that too, a lot of them. I'm there for 12 hours a day, maybe eight if it's on a Friday, then after, no, I'm just kidding. I want to talk to the young lawyers and tell you that you're always a lawyer no matter where you go in a matter, what you do, right? No, you are, you are, you are, you are, yeah. Every situation people look to you for whatever. From the grocery store to- Really? And you know, that's how the clients come too. Yeah, that's true, that's true. So I heard a story, I don't know if this is a true story, that you came in for a job interview at Clay Chapman and you were hard on the spot. No, that's not true. I took me three interviews, actually. Really? But they kept not saying, we're going to find something for you. Because they liked you so much. Yeah, well, yeah, well, it's not too like. Yes, yes, don't. But no, I heard that Jerry Clay was basically said, shook your hand and said, well, you know, welcome or something like that. And- Yeah, I know, Mr. Clay was great. When I found out about the job, my first day went to his office and thanked him. He's a great guy. I mean, it's a great firm. Clay Chapman's a great firm to work for. It's the people are very, very smart. They're very, very industrious, but they don't have any elevated attitude, which is a big problem usually with lawyers. You brought up the topic of being a young associate. This is my first, I mean, I started a year ago, my first time really working in a firm. Really? Yeah, because it was a non-profit, then I worked for a private attorney. Not to say one was better than the other. This is better. I work for a private attorney. I work for a firm. I'll tell you, a firm is better. Listen to me young lawyers, a firm is better unless you have find a very, very special soul practitioner. You have to find a very, very special person. Otherwise you tear your hair out. I mean, it's really hard. For young attorneys, the way, oh, for me, what my experience is, there's kind of a bit of looking. Not in the sense that I was in the Wild West prior to Clay Chapman, but you have somebody checking on you and saying, okay, this is what I need to be done. I mean, not that they don't want to hear your opinion, but it helps a young associate or a new associate. Training, like a new associate, yeah. Well, there's processes in place of how to do things and their people came before you and you don't have to recreate the wheel every time you do something, which I don't know if it was your experience, but it was my experience when I was practicing with a soul practitioner, I was on my own really, pretty much, left on my own devices, so. And by the way, the story you heard about me being hired on the spot, I made that up. Did you really? I just spread it around. So that's, well, Mono's like the up-and-coming lawyer to look for. That's marketing right there for you. Yeah, you want, okay, so you want to go to Mono for what kind, what do you practice and what do people want to come to you for? Right now we're doing bankruptcy and we're doing evictions and then I do some collections, but that's kind of been transferred to Jonathan Gilbert also. Oh, really? Oh, okay. So, but when you say bankruptcy, like what kind, not personal bankruptcy, do you? Well, right now, we represent the creditor and usually it's in the context of, we have a chapter 13, the debtor wants, and it's in connection with a foreclosure usually in the state court. So debtor usually wants a payment plan, wants to be able to stay at their home. So we obviously represent the interest of the secured creditor. So any banks that are listening out there, they should take note of your credentials and the personal service you that you will receive at Clay Chapman. So do you find the work challenging? I mean. Because you didn't have any experience in this area before, right? So you've been learning, right? Very little. Prior to joining Clay Chapman, I had experience in foreclosures. It is a different, it's different in the sense that not necessarily you're trying to conduct a sale, get a sale confirmed or working with borrowers to see if a loan modification happens. It's pretty standard documents, but one minute you could be doing a chapter seven or 13 and it just comes down to protecting interests of the client. And his business, good know. I mean, obviously post-2009, business in foreclosures and bankruptcies was tremendous, I'm sure. But yesterday came out in the paper that Americans' income jumped most significantly since the early 1960s. So is the area still very busy? I mean. It's still busy. There has been a steady, I guess, or a stop of an incline of bankruptcies being filed in Hawaii. Well, nothing could be like after 2009, 2010, yeah. That opened up a whole. That was a really scary time. Yeah, it was. It really was. And I represented banks and lenders and it was quite a balancing act. It wasn't just straightforward now. This is what foreclosure is. Foreclosure defense came around at a time. So one thing I learned from Mr. Ramora, it is kind of, it's not so straightforward as it used to be. It is, now it's more litigated now and it is things. Well, people know if they're right, they know their rights and they know how to work the system a little better, I think. And state court judges and bankruptcy, the bankruptcy judge, Judge Harris is taking notice of that. So it's not so much where you got a contract and there's a breach and there's no reason you can go straight forward. We can talk forever what happened in 2008. But like, so tell me, how does it get complicated? Like, is it things that the bank does, things that the person in the house does? It could be what the bank does. Because the chain of title is a huge thing, right? The chain of title is the sign of mortgages. There was issue of, was some documents notarized properly and what does a transfer to another from one lender to another finance institution, what is required? Right, do you need acquiescence from the borrower? I mean, does the borrower have to agree if you sell on a loan like that? Or, I mean? Well, I mean, if you're going to one lender to another, no, that happens all the time. Student loans get one minute, you're paying Sally May the next minute. So it doesn't really matter. But there can be a rupture in that chain of this. It can, and it's something that you, as an attorney for the lender, you need to be well versed in and aware of. Well, I'm going to take a quick break and you can tell us how we should be well versed and aware of what the bank does with our money. You're watching Life in the Law. I'm Marion Sasaki with Manu Rana. We'll be right back. Aloha, everybody. My name is Mark Shklov. I'd like you to join me for my program, Law Across the Sea, on ThinkTechHawaii.com. Aloha. Hello, my name is Crystal. Let me tell you, my talk show, I'm all about health. It's healthy to talk about sex. It's healthy to talk about things that people don't talk about. It's healthy to discuss things that you think are unhealthy because you need to talk about it. So I welcome you to watch Quok Talk and engage in some provocative discussions on things that do relate to healthy issues and have a well-balanced attitude in life. Join me. Hey, everybody, my name is David Chang and I'm the new host of the new show, The Art of Thinking Smart. I'm really excited to be able to share with you secrets on giving yourself a smart edge in life. We're gonna have awesome guests and great mentors of mine from the political, military, business, nonprofit, you name it. So it's something for everybody. Hi, welcome back. I'm Marion Sasaki. As I said earlier, I'm with Manurana. He's an associate, my colleague at the law firm of Clay Chapman. And we're just talking about bankruptcy law and the difficulty sometimes tracing the, alone as it goes from bank to bank to bank. And what do they do? They don't assign it, right? Or there's a trap in the thing? No, I mean, no, generally, you know, they don't assign it to bank to bank. They, you know, why has a recording system? So I mean, They do a recording system. No recording system. And so generally that's how, especially if a mortgage gets transferred, that's how it's something you can keep track of. And, you know, for the most part, the assignment mortgages are not an issue. I mean, if there's a break of chain or something like that, then that's obviously something we bring up with the client. So it just comes to, you know, making sure that, you know, the eyes are dotted and the keys are crossed. In the sense that making sure that, you know, recording is done properly. It has to be perfect, they'll still reject it. Right, land court, you know, it's very particular. And you get, you know, if it's recorded in land court and then, you know. It's solid, right? So it's a sigh of relief for a lot of lenders and stuff. And usually that's taken care of prior to the, you know, case being filed, but not all the time, you know, and that's why you got things like foreclosure defense or, you know. See, this is why people, nobody on earth would do the job a lawyer does, like with dotting the eyes and crossing the T's and reading the documents we read. It's the most, you know, I remember when I first started practicing, I was like, I can't do this work. We should give this to a lawyer. I'm not, you know, but it's just hours and hours of making sure everything is perfect and fixing, fixing other people's mistakes, which is even harder than making sure things are perfect in the first place. That's why you need a good support staff. So I'm going to jump around because I want to jump around. I like to jump around. So, well, so how long have you been practicing? About seven years. Oh, so that's not very long at all, really. No. And so what do you, do you have, do you do pro bono or do you? I do do pro bono. I do do some family law. Really? And I still do some, yeah, mainly family law if it's pro bono, some divorces and unfortunately guardianships. Oh. And like recently I just finished a guardianship. Really? A guardianship of a child? A child, yeah, a child, yes. So I mean, because I told you I worked at DVAC, domestic violence. So I always wanted to kind of stay within family law of some sort, but, you know, I'll see my obligation to the firm come first. Right, right, right. But it is a fascinating practice and you know, we do trust in the states, I do trust in the states and that's a type of family law as well. I think, oh, sorry, from my experience, that's the second, is family law or trust the state? That's the question, you're gonna get the real story. They're interconnected and it goes from birth to death, and everything you need in between, that's what you really need a lawyer for, you know? I just, that's where I was earlier today. I was, we did a will and a trust for some people. And that's, I really feel like that's helping people. Like family law also, you get the sense of helping people. You know, signing a big, you know, documents in a big contract, you don't get that warm and fuzzy so much. Right, right. You have that interpersonal connection with the client. So where do you see yourself in five years? Do you have a plan? Do you have a, what would you like to do? I'll see, I'm gonna, you know, try to excel. Work hard at the firm? Yeah, well, I'm gonna hang on your co-pills. Yeah, no, we're gonna work hard together. I want an office with that kind of view, that's what I want. Yeah, well, yeah. You should, that's what I want too, actually. I have a little tiny sliver of a view. See how pathetic we are as lawyers? We don't want much, just give us a little money and a view and we'll work 12 hours a day. So yeah, well, I think this is, Clay Chapman is a great firm. It's wide open. I think it's growing. I think the practice is being elevated. So I think it's a great place to be right now, you know? Right, the thing I was impressed with and I think Mr. Ramoro said this, they want to be a generational firm. Right, yeah, they want to say it. Did you really call Steven Ramoro, Mr. Ramoro? No, no, no. You're just doing it on TV, right? I'm doing it on TV, right. It's Steve Ramoro. Well, certain partners I call by Mr. Clay. Mr. Clay. Mr. Clay, Jerry, you call Mr. Clay? Yeah, yeah. I call Jerry, Jerry. Hi, Jerry, how are you doing? Well, I think you deal with him more. A lot, I deal with a lot. And poor Jerry, the name partner in our firm is laid up for weeks and weeks and so I hope he's watching today and see that we're, I hope we're doing the firm proud, Jerry. So. Where do you see yourself, five years? Well, I would like to be, I would like to be a partner, you know? I'd like to be Bob Chapman. If I could be any partner, that's who I would be. Aim high. Like, you know, that's one thing I learned about going to Harvard, right? Like, I wasn't even going to apply, right, to Harvard Law School. And I didn't want to spend the money and it was $50, I didn't want to spend the money. And my husband was like, you're, this is nonsense, you just send it in, you never know. And because I was so certain I wouldn't get in. And lo and behold, you know, the following fall I was going up to Cambridge and I was going to Harvard Law School. So like, I think if I'm going to dream, I'll dream big, you know, so, yeah. Well, big names to drop, Cambridge, Harvard. Yeah, well, you know, but, you know, it's only, it really is not such a big deal. If you put one foot in front of the other, you end up in Harvard. That's all you have to do is please everybody every step of the way. If you can suck up that much, you too can go to Harvard Law School. So, now you spend time in New York as well, right? Actually, I took the bar in New York. Did you think about going there? I did, I did. I was in, I guess, transition. I took some time off from work. And then I was thinking of doing international law. And really the only way, I mean, from Hawaii, unless you started from the beginning and, you know, you worked with businessmen or various institutions, is, I was thinking of getting my LLM, but I think. I thought of getting my LLM. I applied to get my LLM. Oh, did you? Yeah, yeah. Then I didn't take it. I wish I had, actually. Well, I stopped you from. Well, it was my last year of law school and it would have meant one more year of law school and I just couldn't, I just couldn't deal. It was in taxation, which I happened to love. But they accepted me, but I was like, oh, do I really want to go to another year of law? And plus there was this huge salary beckoning me from, you know, so, you know, yeah. So it's hard to say no to, you know, like one of, like a top firm. So I didn't do the, I took the money grabbing, not the academics look. Oh, you got it now. So, did you spend any, well, like what? Actually, I, New York only visit like three times and I was there for like maybe a week or so. So it was really because I was looking to Fordham and to go into that area. And plus international law, I think you did. Does Fordham have an international law program? Oh, they did. Oh, okay. An LLM program. So I was looking into that. But I wanted to get into practice and then I started doing my own family law cases for a little while. Right. It's fun to have your own practice. It is. It's challenging. But it's fun. You have to work all the time. You know, it's, and it's hard when you're just starting out, it's really hard. You know, but you have to just keep hanging in there. I mean, I think that's the answer, right? I mean, you know, to being a successful lawyer is you just, it's called a practice for a reason. Oh, it's a business. And any business you got to be, you got to hang in there. Right, yeah. Keep going, keep going, keep going. So, and now you're married. Yes. You have a lovely wife. Thank you. And she's studying to be an accountant, maybe. Right, yes, yes. So that'll be, you'll be a power couple. The most boring couple. No, that's a perfect couple. I'm a bankruptcy attorney and I count it. That's great. I need, I think I'm going to change it. I see you in Kakaako. I see you in a penthouse in Kakaako. So. Well, you asked also what I wanted, five years. I do want to get back into more family law. Do you? Yeah, working with DV victims. I'll support you at the firm with that. I, because I really, I think it's fascinating family law. And I think there's like, it's like, it's a good revenue stream, frankly. I really do. Right, but it's probably for me, it was the, although I do feel like I'm a lawyer, a bankruptcy lawyer, I just felt most fulfilled at that time, personally. Right, right, right, right. Well, we should, we should, we should come up with a plan and put it before the, well, yeah. I learned that doing pro bono, I mean, I could do more, you can always do more, but that's something, one avenue I'm going to continue. Are you active in the bar? Yeah, I'm, right now I'm in collections and bankruptcy. And I, I go once a month to the family law. You do? Yeah, yeah, I was, they're the most, out of all the associations, one of the best organized. The family law? Yeah, they're very organized. Section, yeah? Yeah, probably in the country too. Really? Yeah, they really take their, like, bar meetings, conventions seriously. You should come to the Hawaii Woman Law Association meetings. The men come all the time and it's like a great, because they understand the complexity of balancing work, life, you know, experience and a lot of them are single mothers and a lot of the work they do is to, you know, encourage young women lawyers or women who maybe are single mothers want to become lawyers. It's really kind of a fascinating group. It's really, yeah, I think you could find a lot of connections there. You could meet a lot of people there, I think. Well, yeah, I mean, that'd be great. I'll take you next time. I mean, I was raised by a single mother, you know, from up in when I was eight years old to now. Really? Yeah, my dad passed away, unfortunately, from cancer. Oh. And now, but she just took on everything that was in front of her. Really? Yeah, she, I mean, not to go too much off the... No, let's hear, I'm so curious. A week after my dad died, she went back to work. A week. That's amazing. A week. I mean... She's tough. Yeah, five times ever. I don't know, I'm not tough as her. Well, you know, I have to say, and I hope this doesn't, but Indian mothers made a steal, man. I think so. They really are. It's like, I hate to say, you know, I've been mothered in general. Mothers in general, it's true. But, you know, the intellectuality and the determinist and the persistence, it's a cultural. I think it's a cultural phenomenon, you know? So I can sort of imagine how determined she was when you were young. And was she, did she have high expectations for you? I don't know, I mean, she always wanted me to do well. Yes. I did. Gotta do well in studies. But she wanted me to have, like, outside life. She made sure I went to dances. Right, right. Usually I went stag, but... So what do you like to do in your spare time now? Do you swim? Go to the beach, swim. That's what I try to do after work, like a magic island, swim. And not to eat so much, but I'm not done. No, not doing so well now. No, you know, I... I do like to eat and swim. I love to eat, too. Oh, and I have to say that Manu, Manu's wife, but Manu and his wife, supply some of the most delicious Indian food I've had in Hawaii. I think, I mean, I think we need to have a better Indian choices. It's like killing me. I used to eat Indian twice a week in New York. And here, you know, I go like once a month or whatever, and I go and I moan and complain. Or she needs to give cooking lessons, would be probably the best thing. Spread her knowledge around. Now, she's from India, Nidhika, yeah? Yeah, she is. And so how does she like Hawaii? How's she adjusting? She's doing all right. Yeah. Yeah, she's liking it. Yeah? It was hard in first, but she's getting used to it. Yeah, you have to make friends. Yeah. I mean, it's hard for me from coming from New York. You know, you don't have anyone to talk to and everything seems very different. Right. And how's her learning had to drive? I was going okay. Yeah? I still don't know how to drive. Everybody should know that, that I'm terrified of driving. If you have any driving tips, join the conversation, call 415-8712474. I'm terrified. Tell me how I can learn how to drive. Can you hypnotize me, maybe? I don't know. But definitely call in if you have anything to say, 415-8712474. So do you have any tips for me driving? Why am I terrified, man? I'm not terrified of anything. Why? Because it's a giant machine that you can giantly harm vests. You've got to take control of the giant. It's the one thing that has eluded me. I really, very little has eluded me. I failed three times. Two times, oh my God. I was that 16th. Oh, I find that to be a very uplifting story. That's very good. On that uplifting note. My mom passed the first time. Did she? Of course she did. My dad did it. So there you go. There you go. The indomitable, what's your mother's name? Oma. The indomitable Oma Rana. Thank you so much for producing Mano. Mano, thank you so much for coming on today. I really appreciate it. I hope you all enjoy the show. You can see us obviously every week here on Think Tech Hawaii from one to two, one to one to two, one to one 30 on Wednesdays, Life in the Law. I'll see you soon.