 All right, today I'm with Natasha Bertha and we're gonna talk about marketing and kind of what she has been learning, how she has been growing. She is a member of my MasterHeart Business Mentoring Group and she's been helpful to, well, a lot of people in the group and she does similar things actually to what I do. She helps heart-based solopreneurs, small businesses reach more of their ideal clients and the sort of technical aspects behind all that too. Anyway, Natasha, thanks for doing this and I'm looking forward to this conversation. Thanks, George. Yeah, it was a good moment for me to find a kindred soul in the world in terms of someone who's a marketer but also doesn't wanna just keep spouting out the same stuff as certain other marketers and who, like, I love the way you challenge norms and that you let us be true to ourselves and still be focused on growing. So that's how I love. And I wanna ask you about that because there's a lot of being true to ourselves in the sort of more spiritual space, spiritual business, spiritual marketing space. I guess what I'm trying to say is that is it true to ourselves to work on a some kind of consistent basis? Is that being true to ourselves? Or is it more like, I'm just gonna follow my flow, whatever I feel like doing today, that's really being true to myself. And this is interesting, our station because some people say, and I'm bringing this forward in a sort of an attitude of I actually don't know. And I'm genuinely curious. If someone says, I just followed divine guidance throughout the day, it makes me curious. It's like, wow, you really know what God is saying or God is, or a source is saying to you at all times, you are just astounding. I should study under you. I should mentor under you because you just follow divine guidance all day. So I'm asking you the question. I'm having some questions from you because you are a very spiritual person. You, do you wanna just say a little bit, just touch on your background a little bit here? Yeah, I guess so. I guess things that some people don't know about me because they meet me in this marketing context is when I was 16, I left high school and everyone told me that I should do a commerce degree because I was great at maths and I did enjoy the subject commerce at school but I was also a complete feminist punk rebel. And there was no way I was gonna work for the man. That's awesome. I love it. I just wanted to pause and say, I love it. It's hilarious. It's such a funny journey. So I was really politically driven and I just didn't wanna be put in any kind of box and I still feel that's all very active for me still. And I was also really looking because I was raised atheist, such a different path to you but I was raised completely atheist and I felt this emptiness. And I was reading every book about religion trying to understand, well, what is Christianity? What is Sufism? What is like all these things that I keep hearing about are at all kind of Buddhist books. And I was doing yoga classes and then I ended up going really deep in a deep yogic immersion and I used to shave my head and wear orange and I have a Sanskrit name, yoga vanim, which is, I still relate to that. That's what that means. Deep sleep, that's like my reality. I've seen that word in your profile somewhere, you know. I could, it's a bit confusing because Facebook went through a phase where they said, if you use a pseudonym, we will close your account. So I was like, oh my God, okay, I better use my Christian name. And it sort of feels like a nice separation in some way that like, oh yeah, just my Christian name for work. That's all the legal paperwork stuff in that. But if people, my clients get this hunch, like, what should I call you? I feel like I shouldn't call you Natasha. I'm like, well, and then I tell them, look, you can call me yo, you can call me yogi or yoga vanim, like that's actually the name I use with friends. But so I kind of vacillated with that for a long time because I was a young person, I was a bit lost. I was like, go deep yogic and then ditch that and then go deep, like anti spiritual because I had a bit of a tough time in that yoga community where I was like, if that's spiritual, I don't wanna do that. And then went through a lot of different things and got to a point where I was working as a barista and I thought, I was 30 something. And I thought, my God, if I'm still doing this when I'm 50, I'm not gonna be happy. So I need to get a degree because that's something I didn't do. And here where I lived, there was arts which is literature based arts, nursing or commerce. And I was like, there's no way I'm gonna be a nurse but I'll do a few of each arts and commerce subjects to see which I prefer and which I do better at. And I was just smashing commerce out of the ballpark. I would just get really great grades in that without trying very hard. So I did that not really knowing what direction that would take me feeling really strongly like I wasn't into marketing. That marketing was about manipulation. I had so many deep ingrained values about compassion and love. And there was no way I was gonna be part of that. So I tried, oh, maybe I'll do an accounting major. I tried all the different things. HR, blah, blah, blah. And then I had this amazing lecturer who was so into the creative side and the beauty of it and connecting with people. And he was so engaged and the content was great. And I was like, okay, systems and creativity and communication are actually three big strengths for me and maybe marketing is a fit, but it has to be my way. So there is a place where, yeah, people might see that I'm promoting myself as a marketer but there's a much longer and more ingrained part of my life that's about spiritual growth. I love it. Yeah, that's why that's what we're having. So back to that question, right? And again, I'm approaching it out of curiosity because I know that I know nothing. I mean, I mean, I know nothing compared to the truth if you wanna say that or the reality which is far grander and far more mysterious than I can imagine. And what I do know that is that I am grateful for a good life right now, a good business. Those are probably everybody here knows I kind of follow a system. I make plans, I strategize and then I just work as much as I possibly can and enjoy your productivity throughout the day just following my plans. And of course I keep tweaking the plans all day. This was coming from my past when I grew up rebelling against discipline because I grew up having to take piano lessons and violin lessons and trying to get good grades and coming from the Chinese culture, immigrant culture. It's like there was a lot of pressure for all that. And so I was, I had a tough time as a kid. I grew up really through college, I had a tough time. Through my twenties, I had a tough time because I kept rebelling against discipline and structure wasn't until I learned it really in the past seven to 10 years of my business where Joe for productivity was born was like, there is a way, there's a way through this. It's like you can make friends with discipline and structure and systems and show up. I like to say uninspired but willing. It's like the other day I found myself saying, you know what, I actually believe a lot in taking uninspired action because I'm uninspired most of the time. And yet if I'm uninspired most of the time if you told me that Georgia's have to be consistent, no, I'm not gonna be. If you want me to be inspired and consistent, sorry, I'm gonna close my business because I'm not inspired most of the time. I really am not. Like if you were to give me a choice, I would be on the couch watching videos, playing video games, eating potato chips all day and walking my dog when he needs to walk. And that's my entire day would be that. And so I had to learn to say, okay, no, I don't feel like writing what I'm gonna write. I don't feel like making a video, but I'm gonna make a video. I don't feel like writing a sales page, but I'm gonna make a sales page because I don't feel like even meeting with clients, but once I start meeting with them, I'm enjoying myself. I didn't want, I don't want to do any interviews, but once we're here, there's a joy here. There's a heart connection here. And so I know that I just have to, the first few minutes, practice breathing into it. And then once I'm into it, maybe it sometimes takes me half an hour. And then I'm like, oh, I'm so proud I did that. But so that's how I have found my way through. And so I'm so curious about the people who say, I just followed divine guidance all day. Like, wow, that's amazing. How is your business going? I mean, usually they have lots of lots of drama and ups and downs, which I feel like, oh my God, I wouldn't want that in my own life. I'm really grateful to have a really super calm life, super stable, calm life. Some people would call it boring. I call it joyfully, I curate my life essentially, but sorry, long, long lecture. I want to bring you back because you have such a great integration of that, because you help people with systems. And yet I wanted you to tell the story of your past. And so I feel like a lot of people watching and listening can relate to you. Tell us then, how have you done this? Yeah, I have a number of clients also who want to just follow their flow. Yes. So my people, they are like mystical, they're tapped into something, I like to channel something through and they feel very constricted and constrained by any planning. So I understand that approach. I have been there for many years in my business. I didn't even quite remember what I was doing because I don't have any record of what I was doing, right? So before I had a calendar system, I'm not sure, I don't know how I pulled it off, but I did manage to build my business. So I mean, it's possible to be that, and I was that person, I was like, no, no, having a system is not gonna work for me because I'm a free agent, I'm a rebel. And when I would even try to set up a structure, I would just rebel against it. And my husband laughs, he's like, but you even rebel against the things you know are good for you. I'm like, yeah, it shits like, maybe I shouldn't swear on this one. It drives me crazy as well. Feel free to swear, please. Because there's that part of me that understands that would be good. That would be good for me if I would stop X or start Y, but there's so much tension of like, how to get that to happen. So I don't know really what I did for all those years, but I did pull it off to do certain things. Then I had a bunch, like a couple of years of coaching with a woman who does what I would say is more pure coaching where really they create space for you to work through your process that don't make suggestions and it's very self-driven. And I understand that that's impactful because I was practicing that and I would coach others and I would really not say much. And it's so interesting using these leading questions and reflecting back to people, just watching someone navigate a problem and seeing them reveal their solutions and then seeing them have buy-in and implement those. So I love coaching and I had a couple of years. I just wanna say, I love how you described that. That it's brilliant. And I think, I believe in that too. It's like, we all have the answers within us, which is why back to, can we just live through divine guidance? Well, I mean, if you run that experiment and you find that that works for you and you're really happy with the way it flows, I would say, cool, like don't do the calendar system. Like don't do it, it's fine. And I know this is very alive for you at the moment because we're doing that thoughtful loving calendar process in Master Heart, which is really lovely. And I actually thought, oh no, I don't need to do that because like I'm totally doing a calendar already. But as soon as I stepped into the practice and being like evaluating that and trying to explain it to other people, I started to remember all my little current disgruntlements with my calendar and the little things that are slipping away and the way that things aren't happening. So I'd say the calendar is just a big fat experiment. And I'm okay with that because I think marketing is a big fat experiment. And I think life's a big fat experiment. So if you think you don't like the calendar, maybe just try and see. And I'll just repeat the name a big fun experiment. Yeah, I mean, whatever you like to call it. And I'd say without the coaching, I don't know if I could have come into the calendar thing because it's very much like from me. I don't feel like George is making me do it. And like no one's making me do it. I just have become ready, like I've become ripe. And I think that's the thing as well, that there are different types of people. Like you've had your journey and your process and you have a certain what's constitution and certain genetic dispositions and conditional dispositions that make this point in time ripe for you to use this practice in this process. And I guess I've come to that through that my partner does the same meditation practice in me and he is so into it. He doesn't understand why everyone in the world doesn't do it. I'm like, well babe, everyone's constitutionally different and we have this different ripeness. So I guess that's the thing. Like I see certain people adamantly stating that they don't have the calendar. They live in a state of flow and they will not do it. I'm like, cool, like that's their truth. They're even like wherever they're just in a different space evolutionarily. And that's cool. And for me, the calendar is like, I'm so in love. I feel more productive than ever. I understand what needs to happen. And I have a similar experience to you where I've been trying to write a sales page and I've been telling myself, I'm not a good writer. And the first time I sat down at the blank page like this with my hands on the keys. And I was like, seized up. I was like, oh, just write one sentence. And I did. And then boom, like this huge floodgate of writing came out that I didn't even know I was capable of. So there is something in that. And I wonder for certain people what will help them in that time block to take the first step because I find that that first step then opens something up. Something comes for me. Thank you. This is brilliant. I mean, and you speak to all this from such a grounded space of having your own experience but also having known a lot of clients and colleagues who have gone. And thank you for saying that it is, everybody has their own path. Some of us share a similar stage, obviously. That's why we can use similar tools. But just because someone isn't using a tool or a method or the George Cal system or whoever system, that meditation that your husband uses or my energy reboot or whatever. It's like, you're right. It's like, it's so easy for us. If something is working so well for us, it's so easy to have that blind spot and say, well, everyone, this is gonna work for everybody, wouldn't it? And so for me, I know I should just state myself. It's easy for me to become evangelistic about a method that works so well for me which actually has some benefit because evangelism and marketing are related. It's like the passion that I have to say, please try this. This worked well for me, does come through and it does infect some people to say, sorry, wrong word, especially these days. It does influence or inspire some people to say, well, let me go and try that. So thank you for giving the permission for people to have different pathways. So I wanna talk a little bit about how you work then with clients. I love that you have the coaching background. I love that you have obviously the marketing strategy, philosophy, viewpoints that you're really strong on that now. And you also have the technical. And so what kind of clients do you most enjoy working with and how do you like to work with them? What kinds of issues or goals do you like to help them with? Yeah, well, I've tried a few different things over time. A few years ago, I spent a whole year on this program that I invented out of my own head and I would not work with people in any other capacity except this one capacity. And I have my worst financial year ever because it wasn't actually grounded in research. I just plucked it out of my pretty head. And so that was a good, I can vouch for that, that that does not work. And then on the side of that program, I was doing this one-on-one work with people as like the money work, the money. So swapping hours for time for money, sorry. So working at an hourly rate for clients, doing website edits or email set up of automations or whatever, anything really, kind of working like a VA really in my mind, not working at that high strategic level that I love. Or anyway, there's lots of things I love. I really need novelty. And then I spent a year just being like, right, now I'm going to just work for the hourly rate. And that was fine. And I was like, okay, but there's only that many hours in the week. So how can I grow my business? So I tried having a team on the premise that, you know, I would pay the team X and then I would charge the client X plus a profit margin, as well as me doing things with clients. And the plan was for me to sort of work at the strategy level and the team to work at the implementation level. There is still a degree of that that I do and that I enjoy. And so what has been great for me this year is when I came into MasterHard, I thought I was going to transition my business from a marketing business to a personal transformation and healing business. And I think I didn't understand. Like, I guess I got the hunch like I was going to have a transition, but I thought that was the transition where whereas we did the planning workshop just before MasterHard. And we looked at the different stages of business as you classify them. And I recognized that I could grow if I fully embraced that I'm at stage two, which is kind of being fully booked at one-on-one. And then with a view to moving into stage three, which is creating more courses and more leverage products in my business, which I had done a little bit of. Pardon me, I've got pay fever. Oh yeah, I hate that, me too. And so that's my main focus this year, I would say is moving from stage two in business to stage three, which means moving from being fully swapping hours for dollars to having more products that are scalable. And with a view to eventually, I mean, this is the like online dream is having, you know, that's what we all hear about, oh, like leverage and scale and like passive income and all of that. And it always seems so elusive for so many people, including my clients, like they all want to run a course. They all want to have evergreens. They all want to do products that are scalable. And I realized that just plucking something out of my head's no good. So I've been doing lots of market research, which has been paying off and I'm running some beta versions of courses that I'm getting really excited about, getting lots of insights from, as well as still serving my one-to-one clients. So it's a lovely sustainable way to transition because I don't have to go, oh, dump all the one-on-one work and just suddenly leap into this hard transition into courses. It's like, oh no, I can do both. I can serve people and I can run courses. And I had all kinds of doubts, like would people like being pissed off with me because I'm like not available one-on-one anymore? But I haven't. I don't have to face that because I'm still doing both. And I may still do both next year. I don't know what will happen. Yeah, yeah. And the fact that you have a team helps with that because that they can be your scaling, your implementation arm of your business. But the other thing is once you decide to do less of the one-to-one, you can always refer work out. You know, and that's what I find myself doing. And it's a joy because then people can still ask me all day long for one-on-one, but that's okay. I have these wonderful people that you should reach out to when you are one of them. I hope it's okay. I had fun on some people to you. Yeah, that's great. It's great for them. Thank you. I didn't really say who they are, who my people are and what I do for them. Yes, yes, yes. So my people are usually like me, very spiritual minded, and they're either coaches or mentors or they're healers of some kind. That's the kind of people I normally work. And women is who I normally work with because I'm like a raging feminist and I seem to just attract women and that's fine. And I love to help people with websites. I've been really enjoying Facebook ads and also email marketing. I like the automations and also Instagram ads. Oh yeah, Instagram ads, because that's part of it. And then the team sometimes does- And email marketing, okay. Yeah, the team also- Email is tough. Social media posting for people. Like if they have that one piece of content, then we can turn it into the carousel, the LinkedIn post. Like we can tease it out. So that's super fun. I enjoy that, but I am really enjoying running courses as well. Awesome. Well, that's why you're always on my list of people that I refer if someone says, all right, George, I like that you have courses, but I like to actually work with somebody one-on-one to get the stuff done. And I said, well, gosh, Natasha Bertha, she's one of the people who knows all my stuff. She herself knows other stuff. That's good stuff. And she can help you actually implement it or have a team to help you. So thank you for doing that and for having that availability. Well, any kind of inspiring send-off thoughts that you wanna share as we close out here? I think I realized yesterday on a call I was talking about email subject lines and I realized there are all the industry recommendations that are just gonna get kind of yelled at you and that those marketers have a big budget and you are their target market and they know all your pain points. So you don't have to listen to them. It really is enough to be in integrity, in alignment and you don't need a fancy subject line if you're just talking to someone as if you love them and you actually do, you can't help but love the people you work with. You get really into each other's jam and that's so beautiful. So you don't have to try so hard. If it feels fine to write something wacky as a subject line or something very you as an email subject line, give it a try. See what happens. Like it's not all about industry standards. There is a lot of fun and experimentation and expression that you get to have as well. Wonderful, wonderful reminder and I 100% agree with that. So thank you Natasha for what you do, how you do it. You're just warm hearts and you're sharp mind. So grateful to have you in Master Heart but just to be in each other's universe. So thank you. Thanks to you George, it's lovely to see you.