 Thanks for staying with us on the breakfasts on POSTV Africa. We're taking off as hot topic now. And what is trending as it is, at least to a lot of us, is that reps has proposed a change from presidential to parliamentary system of government. Don't forget that when we had our independent in 1960, it was the parliamentary government that was handed down to us by our colonial masters, which is the British government. They still practice parliamentary system of government till today. But after a while, maybe after the first six years, we resorted to becoming a presidential system of government following after America. And now some 60 House of Reps members are proposing that by 2031, at least, there should be a return or a transition to parliamentary system of government. So we have some guests here to discuss it with us. We have Mr. Joe Fermi-Dagunro, public policy analyst. Good morning and welcome to the program, Mr. Fermi-Dagunro. Good morning. We also have Mr. Abraham Great, a public affairs analyst on the show. Good morning and welcome to the program. Good morning. Thank you for having me again. Thank you. Okay, let's begin with just the basic question. Parliamentary system of government. Are you for or against it? Let me begin with Mr. Fermi-Dagunro. Well, it's not what I personally for or against it. It's about the people. You said in your introduction that this is what's handed over and that we changed it. Now we want to change it again, hopefully. The most important thing is not about the system that we run. That is good as well. But we still have money. People still have money. Whether it's parliamentary, whether it's elementary, whether it's, call it any name. The annoying thing about the kind of government or the system we run is that people go there to steal money, not everybody though. The idea of being a politician to make fast money, that is what we should discourage. It is not really, the system of presidential is quite expensive. And that's why you have these kind of problems we are having. Even when you do parliamentary, people still find a way to inflate budgets, do a lot of all these things. We have to appeal to the hearts of Nigerians who are politicians to take it easy and to make sure that they go there to serve the people right from the world. When you have the chancellor, you have the chairman, you have the people in the state and at the federal level. Yes, look at what is going on in Jami. Look at what is going on in the UK. Look at everywhere where the practice takes. There's a sort of control, but it's the heart of the people. It's the conscience of the people. And our law has to be strengthened because we don't have the law to take care of the consequences of if you do something silly, you face the consequence. Look at what happened. The prime minister, COVID, he had a party, he lied and you know what the rest is history. He was thrown out of the place and look at the S checker. A lot of all these things you can even take from UK if you are staying in, if you want to start with the UK example and look at even in America where the presidential system is being practiced. Donald Trump is facing a lot of charges right now. We are not facing the people of this country. Politicians are not facing the consequences of their doings and that is the most important thing. Look at what is going on in some MDA. Look at even the judiciary, the Supreme Court we read that there was a kind of financial improprieties there. So at that level, these things are going on even at the assembly. So it is not just changing from presidential to parliamentary. It is about our people. It's about the conscience of our people. Look at what is going on about hoarding of foods. And a lot of all these things you can count. The people are fed up. So it is not what you are bringing to them. They will look at it, yes, if truly we want to save costs. If truly we want to think about the people, yes. The parliamentary system will be good for us. But then who are the people to go in there again and do the same thing they have been doing in the presentation and are you sure that the lawmakers will even approve that? It is a good idea to keep the people busy and the topic that will keep everybody talking again, not looking at what the problem. But this is not the right time because this time around people are facing inflation and the people are facing hunger. People are facing a lot of other things. So telling them we want to change from presidential to parliamentary or elementary or tertiary or call it any name. People are not interested right now. People just find a way to feed themselves and their family. People want to send their children to school. They want to live a happy life. So if the people who are the same politicians we go there, they will still practice what they are practicing. It is party party for jungle kind of thing. And that is what is annoying to the masses of this country. Okay, Mr. Great, let's hear your thoughts as well. Yeah, I agree totally with my co-guest. A bad president is the same as a worst prime minister. It doesn't matter what you have. This topic jumped very quickly at me because I've just submitted in the last few weeks an academic paper only defining the Nigerian system of governance. And I called it the era of a copied democracy. We have to go back to the genesis of where we are at. That it is not just that Nigeria were practicing regional system of governance or that we have a system of parliamentary in place. We would have to remember that there was first the era of the copied democracy when we were forming the country before the independence where Awolowo had worked with the British, worked on the British systems to ensure that Nigeria worked or have a proper regional system that would be in form of parliamentary system. And just at the eve of that we have a new, I call them the sons of Oxford that went with them to America and then jettisoned the proposed agenda from Awolowo to them bringing to Nigeria the system that we now practice, which is democracy. I am a proponent of good governance, but I have problem with democracy. I always am often called democracy a secrecy of supremacy because there is no country. I haven't seen one country that actually practices that develop their nation directly with democracy. Democracy seems to have been working in systems where countries have built their system before and then they invite democracies to regulate things. Look for example in Nigeria what Awolowo was proposing at that time. Look at our diversity, look at the way we are positioned as a country, how many languages, how many cultures, the differences that we have. And it was, don't forget that it was Awolowo at that time who proposed that we should have the Southeast, South, South, Southwest, South. We now practice invariably we are working in that kind of a system now today. You said this person is from the South, that person is from the Southwest, but it is not constitutionally so. We just practice it as a work. So you imagine a situation like the UK for example or like Canada if Nigeria had gone where we have six prime ministers and one president. But no matter what we have there is still a problem, a major problem of resource control in Nigeria where derivation, the resource control, the fiscal budget there is an endemic system in Nigeria of corruption. And that is the core thing. But that can at least, we can begin to have a variance to how the system work that it can work a little bit if we have a parliamentary system like I will not compare it with the UK, I will say at least like the UAE. In the UAE you have six or seven different kingdoms and what goes in Dubai may not be the same thing that they are practicing in Abu Dhabi. Each of them have their own constitution, have their own laws. That will allow somebody who want to practice Sharia law that has been there before the formation of Nigeria to continue in their practice. That will allow someone in the West who believe in their traditional worship or what have you that they want to go ahead with that. That will allow us to be able to have a breather. But the system that we have at the moment makes even corruption a lot more pervasive because it invests a lot of power on the central. The executive power in Nigeria is the greatest curse on Nigeria. Okay sir, so from what I can get here, you're clearly for the parliamentary system of government and so Geofemic doesn't mind whether it's parliamentary, elementary, tertiary, whatever it is. So that's where we are now. But my question is what advantages can the parliamentary system of government give us and is Nigeria even capable of this change in the system of government at this point? Yes, if you look at it, it will definitely reduce the cost of governance. If well practiced, it will reduce the cost of governance. Like Abraham was saying, the system we give room for regional democracy, let me put it that way, whereby people will vote for the people they want and the power will not be concentrated too much on the executive. The power will still lie within the people, within the chambers and we are not going to have a extreme cost of governance. So that's the one number one. Number two, I still repeat, corruption is the bane of our society. Stealing, there's no other word for it, stealing of government money, people's money is one of the major problems we have. We have excuses for everything. Look at the other day, they said somebody forged the presidency signature to collect millions of dollars out of the central bank for goodness sake. They used this person and they said the money was given out in cash. So there's no camera to capture the person. There's no way to verify that person. It is in this country you hear regularly ghost walker. It is in this country we have had some past snake swaddling. A lot of these excuses. So now somebody say, oh, I don't know. It is maybe one voodoo, something. So why all these excuses for goodness sake? And somebody who has a case in court will still leave court and get an injunction and one contest to be a presidential candidate. So all these things, you know, you don't really know and then where to go from. We don't know how is the working. What is the workings of the system? How is it going to benefit the people? And then the funny thing is this, they've taken the people for granted. Four years thereafter, they come back again, the people will still go and vote. So that's why you see most of the young people, they don't really care much about all these things. And you see they are concerned and they are fed up with a lot of what's going on. So now parliamentary, in theory, we reduce costs. In theory, we give voice to the people at regional level, in theory. But in practice, how do we practice that? I said, unless we begin to have consequences for some of these things we do. So if you don't, how do you do this? What's it called now? This social welfare program. It's a good idea. But if it is the social welfare program we're using still in money again, money does not get to the poor. It's getting to the rich and the rich are getting richer. So now what do we do? Look at the charges on the bank. Look at the charges. I mean, you can name them. It is just about our people. It's just about conscience for goodness sake. Let the lawmakers, let them think about the conscience. Let them have the conscience that will resolve some of this issue. Let them begin to ask questions till today nobody knows exactly what the lawmakers are earning. We just want to hear that, oh, the one is the one that they increased their budget. And what is this budget for? Have you ever seen anywhere in the world where a lawmaker distributes rice and beans? It is not done. And these are the things. Palliative is a world that people do not want to hear again. I think some people, if they have the opportunity, they will delete it from the dictionary because it is not becoming something that we just misuse. We use that word carelessly and people are not enjoying the palliatives. So these are the things. I am very clear about this that let's begin to work on the conscience of our people. Let's talk directly to our people and let's begin to have a system whereby we respect. We don't respect the system. We don't respect our people. We don't respect ourselves. These are moral issues. These are fundamental issues until we approach that, until we begin to see change in all these situations. I think whatever system we operate will still have this problem. That is just my conclusion that whatever system people are prepared to go for it and say, okay, let's try this again. But are you sure that the people in government will sign or will make it happen? I doubt because they are benefiting from this presidential system. A lot of people, a few people are benefiting from it and they will fight back. Okay. Well, people will fight back. There's always a fight back. Let's also hear your final take on this, Mr. Great. Like I said earlier, a bad prime minister is as bad as the worst president. But my concern more is in terms of our diversity, in terms of our complex as a nation we are, there is a way we can make do with what we have at the moment, if there is sincerity, because the current government or the government, almost every government we have had, have been quite punitive in their approach to corruption. America practices what we have and I have an issue with Western culture in that when we copy from them, they give us a kind of a cacophonous kind of system or policies and we just run with it. Look at America, for example, America practices federalism, but they have a caveat and the caveat is the electoral college. So no matter how the election goes, there is still a set of people, 530 or there are about a number of them, who still determines and you see that in the case of Al Gore versus Bush, you saw that in Hillary Clinton versus Trump. Where there was, you know, Hillary won the vote by over 2 million people. There's still a set of people who still, so in my own way, in my own thinking, America is not a democratic government. Their line for me is a line. They have a system that is almost similar or different completely to the UK, but it's definitely not democracy because there are a few number of people who actually determine the outcome. And if you want to tell me what, if there is anything worse than corruption in Nigeria, it is election. You see, this election is extremely toxic, divisive. The election of every four years would not make Nigeria a sustainable country. We hate each other. We bring bigotry. We bring religion. In fact, after elections, sometimes it takes us 10 years to recover from some election. Some people still hate people. There's something I call apoptosis, which is in biology where a cell is dying from itself. Nigeria is killing itself from inside itself because somebody, because I voted for somebody else, will go after me looking at my LinkedIn, looking at your businesses, bringing somebody down, you know, trying to disrupt just because we don't think alike. Just because. And that's what China has eliminated. When China reduces the number of elections, it seems as though China is a capitalist country. No, but they don't have election to deal with. So they went straight into economy. Nigeria every four, four years is destroying Nigeria. Okay. Well, thank you so much. Maybe we'll have, we'll propose a, a presidential election system of government, presidential, parliamentary, traditional, all joined together to give us a presidential system. But we'd like to thank you gentlemen for coming on the show. We, we don't have much time, but one thing is sure. Sincerity is what will take us anywhere, no matter what the system of government is. And that, that much we agree upon. So Mr. Joe Femi Dagon Roe, thank you so much for coming on the program. And Mr. Abraham. Great. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you. All the best. Enjoy the day. Thank you. Thank you. So we've been talking with Joe Femi Dagon Roe, a public policy analyst and Abraham Great, who goes also with public affairs analysts are talking about the proposed change or transition from presidential election or presidential system of government to parliamentary. We'll take a break now. And when we return, we'll be looking at another hot topic. Stay with us.