 Ysgrif Elligwn i fynd i ymddian nhw, ond, yn y beth yn mwysigol 13045 yn llunio yn смотреть llawer i unrhyw yng nglychiad i Scotland. Felly, os nid i'n teimlad iawn i ymdag i gael i ni, os wrth gwych yn griffanol i meryddio вот iddyn nhw, o'r ddiwedd cyfelfiith? Mell yn eu gwlad rhywbeth i sut i gael i gael i gael i gael i'n gilydd i'r ddiwedd a rhaid i gael i'r ddigon i helw ar gyffredinol i gael i gael i 14 munutes. Erich Fraser, as the first Scottish Veterans Commissioner, was the first such post in the United Kingdom. With some reservations, which have, I think, resulted in some subsequent exche penalty, his appointment was welcomed by members across the chamber, who adopted a non-partisan position in keeping with the real, genuine and tangible cross-party accord to provide the highest possible support and opportunities for our armed forces, for our veterans and their families, who choose to make Scotland their home. Members recognise that the way in which public services and support for veterans were provided in Scotland were good, but they were developing and improving. I acknowledged, as others did, that more could, should and would be done to ensure that those are coherent and as good as they could be. A commissioner, we agreed, could bring that holistic perspective to our and our partner organisations, policy development, challenging perceptions and bringing experience and independent views to bear on the issues of importance to veterans, holding those responsible to account also in order to drive further improvements. At the same time, the commissioner also has a major part to play in promoting and highlighting the undoubted talents and skills of our strong and robust veterans community. This cohort of veterans is often an untapped resource that can and should offer so much to their communities, to employers and to the Scottish society as a whole. When he began his work, the commissioner, Eric Fraser, spent a considerable length of time engaging with a wide range of interests in policy teams in local and Scottish Government, providers of services accessed by veterans, veterans organisations and, vitally, employers of veterans. Crucially and in my opinion rightly, Eric invested a lot of time speaking to and hearing about the real-life experiences and opinions of individual veterans themselves. Who better to articulate how veterans are treated on leaving the military and returning to civilian life? Who better to spell out the difficulties they faced in finding a home, establishing a business, getting a job, developing skills and ensuring that their families are settled? Who better as well to tell us what actually works in the real world, what needs improving and what needs to change? As a result of those discussions and a full and thorough examination of what is already in place, the commissioner published his first report, Transition in Scotland, on 27 March. He provided a copy of that report to Alex Ferguson, as chair of the cross-party group on veterans, and members can also find a copy in Spice. I would congratulate the commissioner on the tremendous progress that he has made to date and I would welcome his recommendations and his findings because they can help us to further improve the support that we provide to veterans. To help and promote and publicise that report, I was delighted that Alex Ferguson very kindly hosted a reception here in Parliament on 1 April. Alex, Eric and I, and indeed many of the MSPs here, had the opportunity to meet case stakeholders, veterans and employers with a wide variety of experiences to share. I hope that, like me, all those who attended found the evening informative, inspiring and incredibly worthwhile. I can think of two particular suggestions which were mentioned to me that night, which we have taken up since then. The reception itself focused on two main areas, employment and housing. I was delighted that Eric and indeed Alex spoke so warmly about the steps that the Scottish Government has taken in those areas to date and felt able to echo my very strong belief that veterans and their families are a considerable and sometimes underutilised asset to the country. The vast majority of veterans make a seamless transition from the military into employment, into business and into civilian life. They have a considerable, formidable and enviable skillset, sometimes a skillset of which they themselves are not as aware as perhaps they might be. They are leaders, they work well under pressure and they are adaptable and they are also strategic problem solvers. They bring a whole range of real, tangible skills as well as, for example, drivers, doctors, nurses, clerks, IT and communications experts, engineers and trades people, exactly what we are looking for in a modern Scotland. Those skills that they develop have been forged and tested in some of the most demanding situations imaginable and have not been found wanting. During the reception, I met veterans who had established businesses, who have built successful careers in the public and private sectors and who gave their time freely in support of the third sector and their communities. They are, as we all are, fathers, mothers, friends and neighbours, they are an integral part of civic society and they live in our cities, our towns, our Scotland. I met small and large employers with specific recruitment policies in place to maximise the use of the endowed skills of veterans. I also met veterans who found the whole experience, though, of leaving the military, daunting and difficult. It is vital that, for that small number that require it, appropriate, effective and comprehensive support is readily available. The commissioner's report, in my opinion, captures all of these views, these experiences and these opportunities. He has made recommendations on where we can work with a range of partners, such as local authorities and the Ministry of Defence, in order to further improve the support that is available to those who are leaving the armed forces who choose to make Scotland their home. As I said a few moments ago in broad terms, I welcome all those recommendations and officials in the Scottish Government are now looking in detail at what we can do to take them forward. In the meantime, I would make the following specific observations about some of the main areas that Eric has focused on, first of all in relation to housing. I entirely agree with the commissioner that service leavers wishing to settle in Scotland should be made aware of how housing legislation and systems work here. I should say that I have said now for a number of years, I believe that the MOD and the UK Government should ensure that when somebody joins the armed forces on day 1, a plan should be started for their employment and their housing and their health provision for when they leave the service. We will continue to work closely with the UK Government to ensure that advice and briefings on housing and homelessness accurately reflect the position here in Scotland, so that service leavers choosing to settle here are aware of the differences in policy and approach on where to go for assistance. We have produced a tailored housing options leaflet entitled a Scottish housing guide for people leaving the armed forces and ex-service personnel which provides information on housing options and where to go for further advice and support. The guide was widely distributed to the minister of defence, including military bases in the UK and abroad, as well as to advice and support agencies and social housing providers. For our part, Scottish Government officials will continue to monitor, to update and to ensure that any information available is accurate, informative and relevant, and they will play their part in ensuring this gets to those who need it most. Housing is and will remain a priority for this Government, and access to good quality housing is a vital part of the Government's drive to secure economic growth, as well as to promote social justice, strengthen communities and tackle inequality. We also recognise that some service leavers and ex-service personnel can face particular challenges finding housing, and we are committed to working with the commissioner and others to ensure that they are not disadvantaged by their service or the circumstances they find themselves because of this. We also wish to help social landlords to understand their requirements and the ability that they have in allocating their houses. We published a social housing allocation practice guide, which includes guidance on housing issues for ex-service personnel, and also encourages social landlords to give fair and sympathetic consideration to applicants leaving the armed forces. The guide provides practical examples of approaches being used by landlords to manage allocations, including in relation to ex-service personnel. In relation to employment, it identifies a range of ways that we and others can help those leaving the armed forces. It identifies also, of course, the UK Government and the MOD. To help those leaving the armed forces to find a job is clearly one of the most crucial aspects of making a successful transition. My officials will explore further how best we might promote modern apprenticeships, placements, employer recruitment of service leavers and, crucially, refine, develop and improve the mechanisms for getting the right information and advice to the service leaver. If you think about it for a moment, some of the advice and the number of organisations that stand ready to help veterans, at least 400 charities, for example, can be of such a scale that it can blind a person coming out to where the right place is to go for the best possible support. I agree that the wealth of youth employment initiatives and opportunities that the Government supports and delivers through partners such as Skills Development Scotland should be clearly signposted to early service leavers and veterans. It is important that this group is aware of the range of offers and opportunities for them to make a successful transition to civilian life. It is not clear that the support available via the third sector organisations and charities is sufficiently well publicised, co-ordinated and aligned with the mainstream offers, which are already available in Scotland via Skills Development Scotland and colleges, particularly for those veterans under 25 years of age. I agree that there are opportunities that are aligned to publicise and to link the network of veterans support services offered across Scotland through my world of work and other partners' websites. My officials have discussed this with Skills Development Scotland who advise that they will be happy to work with partner organisations to fulfil that recommendation. One thing that struck me has been very important over the years now, which I have been responsible for veterans in the Government, is that very often that transition to civilian life is the most daunting thing that they have experienced, even including those very dangerous experiences that they may have had while in the armed forces. The idea of having to be responsible for first of all getting a job, getting a house sometimes, budgeting in that house, holding down a tenancy, those things can be quite a daunting prospect for people who very often will have had their accommodation, their food, their wage, their travel options provided or at least organised for them. That itself can be a very worrying experience. For those reasons, I think that the commissioner's recommendations are both timely and welcome. He identifies quite rightly the importance of getting the preparatory work done correctly before and in the run-up to leaving the armed forces. We don't have responsibility for that. If I'm honest, it's not always been easy to influence the Ministry of Defence in relation to that and that's not just me saying that, I think that you'd find the same comment being made in Wales and elsewhere. But Eric Fraser, because of his long experience, he was twice defence attache in Washington, has worked with the Ministry of Defence. We're very hopeful that those links will help us to establish a more productive relationship in that regard. He's already identified a number of ways in which the Government, local authorities, public, private and third sectors can and should play their part to ensure that the information support provided at that crucial stage fully reflects the distinctive nature of devolved services in Scotland. I want to push forward that agenda. For my part, I would like to look to all strategic partners to play their full part and I have no doubt that they will. We may not get it completely right immediately. I'm not pretending that we have it right just now, that's one of the reasons why I appointed the commissioner. It's going to take time, a substantial effort will be required but I would want to congratulate Eric on his excellent report. I think that it struck the right balance between showcasing what is working well, what needs wider adoption and where gaps need to be filled. It holds up crucially, I think, veterans and their families as assets to businesses, to society and to Scotland. I think that that key message which was the central part of the reception that we held must be recognised, endorsed and promoted. That's a challenge for me, for the Scottish Government, the public and private sector, large and small and for Scotland's ex-service charities. Can I just say a few words of foreclosing in relation to the Labour Party amendment? I think that the amendment is well intentioned. The Scottish Government for our part supports Public Scotland and a Legion Scotland's insult to injury campaign and unlike other parties we have included a specific pledge in our Westminster manifesto but we believe that those who have been injured in the service of their country should get the full value of war disablement pensions and will work to ensure that that's not treated as income replacement of entitlement to other benefits. I believe that the right way to address that situation is for the UK Government to align the war pension scheme with the AFCS so that there's a fair and consistent approach. Even if you think for a second or two about somebody, perhaps a veteran in a care home in Scotland who for very legitimate reasons has then moved to the rest of the UK and that entitlement in which they had in Scotland doesn't transfer, that would be a real shock to the system. That's the reason why I think it's best dealt with by a joint approach. Ben Macintosh. Minister recognised that Poppy Scotland and Legion are calling not on the UK Government to realign pensions but specifically for the devolved administrations including the Scottish Government to realign its policy on care charges that this is entirely a matter for devolved competence. It's got nothing to do with pensions, it's all to do with whether or not we charge those pensions. There's quite a bit of time minister. I think that Ben Macintosh couldn't be more wrong. If he was aware of how the campaign started in the first place and the subsequent nature of the involvement of Legion Scotland and Poppy Scotland to a campaign that started in London, he would know more about that. I spoke to Poppy Scotland actually on this this morning. They were very surprised by this amendment. There'd been no approach or discussion of the Labour Party in advance of this. The point that I was going to make is that we are willing to explore this. We want to take a fair and consistent approach while we explore with causally the options to create a fairer system for charging for social care to accept Labour's amendment at cost to local authorities. I think that we are trying to achieve the same thing here. We have managed to have consensus in these debates in the past and I know that consensus is really valued by the veterans community. I would appeal not saying right away but during the cost of the debate for the Labour Party to think about this I'm more than happy to meet to discuss it further so we can have a joint approach on this. I think that we can get to the right place where we all want to be but I don't think it would be useful to have the amendment carried forward and I would ask the Labour Party to think about this late stage. To conclude, this is obviously a challenge for me, the Scottish Government, the public and private sector and that's large and small businesses and for Scotland's extra service charities but we can and will rise to this challenge. It's the right thing to do, veterans and their families. We should not always think of them in terms of perhaps a problem with housing, perhaps a problem with coming back into society or a problem with health or even education or employment. We have to think of them in the vast majority of those assets to our society who can offer a great deal and sometimes it may be the case that they themselves don't exactly appreciate all the different skills and assets that they can bring to society and it's down to us to make sure that that can be remedied. Veterans and their families, given what they have given, I think deserve nothing less. I'm happy to move the motion in my name. Thank you very much. I now call on Mary Fee to speak to and move amendment 1, the generous 10 minutes, Ms Fee. Thank you, Presiding Officer. The care and treatment of our veterans is the manifestation of our humanity. How we treat those who gave all for their fellow countrymen and women, how we treat survivors and their families declares the intent of our passion in society. On the United Kingdom Armed Forces Covenant places a duty on all of us to care for the survivors, the families and the bereaved. What the transition in Scotland report by the Veterans Commissioner shows us is that while there are issues to be identified and work to be achieved, our health services, our housing agencies, third sector and voluntary organisations play a crucial role in the transition from military personnel to civilians and we are rightly grateful for the dedication they show to making the transition as smooth as possible. Today at decision time Scottish Labour will support the Scottish Government motion. The motion laid out by Cabinet Secretary Keith Brown is welcoming non-partisan excuse me excuse me and commits the Scottish Government and Parliament to tackle barriers faced by ex-servicemen and women when integrating into life after serving our country. The Labour amendment raises concerns that many MSPs will be aware of. We do not believe that injured veterans should be forced to face the cost of social care from compensation awarded. That is the reason behind our amendment. We support the insult injury campaign run by Poppy Scotland under Royal British Legion and I know that Ken Macintosh will address this further. I am pleased that the cabinet secretary has already made mention of our amendment and I would like to stress that in lodging the amendment it is not intended to be mischievous or obstructive to have a debate about transition of veterans and not discuss this very important topic that is of concern to many thousands of people across the country. On Scottish Labour welcomes the report by the commissioner. We support the findings and recommendations contained within the report. The four main themes of the report are all devolved issues and where there is scope for the chamber to work together, this must be our mission and the dignity of our ex-servicemen and women and our democracy. The transition for many as Eric Fraser points out can be smooth and the earlier support is offered then the easier that transition can be. However for those unable to cope with the demands of civilian life transition can be a very daunting and personal experience. One group identified as finding the transition more difficult is early service leavers. Early service leavers classified as serving less than four years often have the fewest formal qualifications and adult life experience. Leaving school and finding a role with the Army, Navy and Air Force is an act of bravery for many of our young men and women. The commissioner talks of his concerns for early service leavers recognised as especially vulnerable when they depart the armed forces. Homelessness is said to be widespread amongst early service leavers with increasing numbers relying on friends and family to provide informal shelter and a temporary address known as sofa surfing. That presents further problems in the transition process and can cause problems in finding employment. On employment we read there are little differences between the experiences of early service leavers and those making their own transition from school to training or to employment. The commissioner then warns that there must be further promotion of the youth employment scheme to target early service leavers before and after leaving service. With regards to the fourth recommendation we fully support the commissioner in calling for the opportunities for all age restrictions to be extended. That could have the desired effect of easing young early service leavers into civilian life. Furthermore, the commission calls on the Scottish Government to consider including early service leavers as a targeted group. When reading the report I queried whether there were any disparities between the experiences of early service leavers as well as service leavers between each of the armed services the Army, the Royal Navy and the Air Force. When summing up I would be keen to hear from the cabinet secretary whether any work has been undertaken to identify any issues allowing those involved in planning for transitioning to target greater support where greater problems arise. If he is unable to inform the chamber would the cabinet secretary be prepared to discuss this further in the near future. I appreciate that this crosses over into a reserved issue or indeed one for the armed forces themselves to identify. However I will also be writing to the veterans commissioner to seek further clarity on the issue of disparity between services. Going back to the main themes of the report, housing is a substantial issue. Both recommendations offered regarding housing stressed the importance of sharing information and co-operation between the UK and Scottish Government local authorities and the armed forces. We also joined with the commissioner in paying tribute to organisations such as the Scottish Veterans Residences Houses for Heroes Hague House and, in particular, Erskine. Having visited Erskine a few times, I am proud to support them and the wonderful staff who carry out their duties in an exemplary manner. I am sure that the same goes for all the other organisations that I have also mentioned. Without those organisations Scotland would be a poorer place and long may the commendable functions of these historical organisations exist. Housing options Scotland who provide information and advice to veterans, as well as disabled and elderly people are another example of organisations working in Scotland to better the lives of our ex-servicemen and women and deserve our full support. Our health and wellbeing is important to each and every one of us. However, for those veterans having experienced the trauma of serving our country, it is crucial that the support is in place throughout their duties, transition and life onward to be a civilian. This Parliament is familiar with the importance of mental health, widely recognised to affect one in four of us in our lifetime. In his report, the commissioner states that reviewing the quality and availability of mental health services is well beyond the scope of the report, but it is likely to be the subject of further work next year. We fully support the commissioner ahead of this future review and look forward to hearing how we advance mental health services for service leavers. Again, the commissioner rightly praises the role of third sector and voluntary organisations in their efforts to support veterans and mental health in Scotland. Alcohol dependency and isolation can affect any person at any time regardless of background and age. The commissioner warns that both need closer scrutiny and wider awareness following dialogue with veterans, clinicians and support agencies. It appears that behind closed doors problems are hidden. However, those can have disastrous consequences for the veterans' transition and the family if not exacerbated by the transition process. The forces in mind trust report transition mapping study from 2013 estimates that the cost of poor transitioning in the UK totals around £110 million a year with alcohol misuse the largest single effect followed by mental health issues. No matter the economic cost, nothing compares to the cost on the lives of the ex-personnel, their families and communities. Yet, if we as a Parliament work with external stakeholders to make the transition process easier and seamless for more veterans, the economic cost will decrease, but having a healthier and an active veteran community is greatly beneficial to all and must be our ultimate goal. The findings by the commissioner on alcohol dependence and isolation is one where we will wait to see what develops as the commissioner takes forward next year's programme. Finally, although this issue must never be used as a political football and I doubt anyone in this chamber will do that, I fully support the veterans proposals made by Labour in our manifesto and the SNP and Conservative manifestos also pledge support to veterans and anything that brings further benefits to our ex-servicemen and women should be welcomed by all. In our manifesto ahead of next week's general election Labour has pledged to strengthen the covenant between our nation and our armed forces veterans and their families to make certain that our veterans receive proper support to continue to roll out Labour's veterans interview programme in which companies voluntarily guarantee an interview for job-seeking ex-forces personnel and to introduce legislation to make discrimination against members of our armed forces illegal. Presiding Officer, the role of the military in the United Kingdom has long been the envy of many, if not all, countries around the world. From World War I to modern day combat and peace missions our armed forces deserve our full gratitude and respect for keeping Scotland and the United Kingdom safe. It can never be overstated how much we recognise and appreciate the sacrifices that many women and men have made over the years in securing peace at home and abroad. I hope that today's debate will be consensual and constructive and I move the amendment in my name. Thank you very much. I now call on Jackson Carlaw a generous six minutes, Mr Carlaw. Presiding Officer, thank you. Can I begin by applauding the motion? Can I also thank the cabinet secretary not just for the manner in which I think he addressed the motion this afternoon, but the manner in which he's discharged his duties with respect to the veterans community? I include in that, there was other ministers in the last eight years who have done that too. Stuart Maxwell and Alec Neill who I recall from the cross-party group that was founded in 2007, have always been concerned and very genuinely concerned to promote the issues that have been raised with regard to the veterans community. This afternoon's debate as the minister, cabinet secretary said does have at its root an all-party and consensual approach which has been very genuine and very important as the cabinet secretary himself said to the veterans community themselves. This is of all issues one in which I think none of us ought to allow ourselves to find a division growing on political grounds. The cross-party group when it was founded in 2007 initially met with some resistance and suspicion because the Ministry of Defence itself regarded these issues as being almost reserved to Westminster and it took some gentle persuasion and work to allow the Scottish Parliament to become more directly involved. Indeed, members of the Scottish Parliament in the early days were not always welcomed in military establishments and it was quite a job to move to a point where they were. But as a consequence of that I think there's a very broad recognition that Scotland in its discharging of its obligations to veterans is now a model anywhere within the United Kingdom to providing the best level of support possible. I agree with I want to concur with the cabinet secretary's comments with regard to the veterans commissioner and commend what is very much an interim report I think on where we now are going forward with transition in Scotland and it's interesting to me really that the very three issues that the very first cross-party group identified in 2007 housing, health and employment remain at the core. That's not to say there hasn't been considerable progress on them but I think we can see that these are the three issues around which the great debate takes place. It's difficult sometimes I think for members of the public to actually understand the underlying dynamic. They have become used to seeing parades of very brave people returning from areas of conflict and also watching those individuals in the discharge of their duties and in some respects I think don't fully appreciate the enormity of the challenge that is represented whether people have been in the services for a lifetime or in some cases only for a short period for a variety of reasons. As a teenager I remember there was a popular film unless it wasn't popular at the time it had nothing to do with the armed forces actually it was called The Shawshank Redemption I think most members have probably subsequently seen it it was a very successful stage play a couple of years ago but what it was very good at doing in an entirely different environment was actually showing the challenges that come from a slightly institutionalised environment where yes there is discipline yes there is comradeship but there is also almost a reliance on the infrastructure that underpins the community that is there and the difficulties that can cause thereafter. At school I was in the core and I have to say the armed forces looked like quite a seductive career option at one point sadly, as members will know I am blind as a bat and although I was good at hitting targets they were never my own and that rather ruled out that but I could see having visited RAF camps around western Europe at the time when we of course were in the height of the cold war that it was a very inclusive community and in a sense when you were at school looking to it you could see that for many people coming from a slightly chaotic or complicated background in life it was going to offer a tremendous opportunity and it does but of course the memory of what went before and the challenge that represents to those coming out of the armed forces is a huge responsibility that I think we can see from the work of the Government represents a considerable challenge. There has also been a huge change in public perception in the 1970s we used to go backwards and forwards from to school in our cadet uniforms then during the Irish difficulties all that stopped and it's only in recent years that we have actually returned to members of the armed forces being seen with difficulties now again but within the community sporting their uniform and it has led to a huge support irrespective of the political judgments of governments with which the public are hugely and sharply divided but a huge level of support for the armed forces themselves contrasted again with the atmosphere I recall growing up in the 1960s in the United States to veterans coming back from Vietnam where they were pilloried by the public we've avoided all of that so that brings us to the challenges within the report and I'm going to say for my summing up remarks as well in case you wondered if I was going to get to the point at some point all of this but there are three areas first of course is in housing and we know there are still challenges the cross-party group last night heard from the Scottish Veterans Garden City Association that they have an enormous waiting list of people who are looking for housing there is the issue of health because when we first met as a group many veterans came back with physical conditions which they had before within the armed services but then found themselves at the wrong end of an approach within the national health service and they had to be introduced to the idea that they should ask for treatment very many times too modest to insist that they should get any preference for that and the issues of mental health of arisen since alcoholism of arisen since employment opportunities and also the sustainability of the many charities that have underpinned the support of the armed services in recent years which I'll return in summing up but the key in all of this I think has been information, co-ordination collaboration and partnership between all the agencies and I hope between all the political parties at the same time there's quite a bit of time in hand today at the moment so for those who wish seven minutes will be available to you perhaps more depending on how the debate progresses on Stuart Maxwell to be followed by Dave Stewart Thank you very much, Presiding Officer Before I begin my speech I'd like to say I very much welcome the tone of the first three speeches I think the tone has been excellent in setting the scene for this particular debate First of all I can thank Jackson Carlaw for his comments about myself, Alec Meal and Keith Brown very welcome and I think that's very grateful for those comments but I don't think Jackson Carlaw should have worked with us because it must have been very difficult flying those old biplanes in that and I can understand why that would be quite difficult but you did rather open yourself up to that than I have to say your action but Presiding Officer for some time I think that it's still the case that there's been a perception that veterans are often seen as elderly, they are recognised only for service from long ago wars but a veteran of course can be someone who is young who has served in recent conflicts such as Iraq and Afghanistan in fact a veteran can even be someone who has not been deployed overseas at all and of course an example of that would be people who may well have suffered terrible trauma during the 1970s for example they would not have been sent overseas at all but during the troubles here in the UK although the experiences and the armed forces may differ what our veterans do share is a set of gratitude from all of us for their courage, their sacrifice and because of their defence of the democratic freedoms that we value so much we know that for most veterans integrating back into civilian life after completing a service is relatively straightforward for others though this isn't the case some ex-service personnel face challenges that in trying to adjust to life following their discharge from service it's important that they have all the support and the assistance fully in our society the valuable skills and experience our military veterans gain during their service make them an asset to Scotland and I'm very grateful to have the opportunity to recognise this during today's debate I strongly support the Scottish Government's commitment to improving the lives of armed forces veterans and their families through the powers of this Parliament the cabinet secretary has highlighted the progress made since Eric Fraser was appointed last June as Scotland's first veterans commissioner the commissioner has indeed outlined an ambitious plan to deliver better outcomes for those who have served in our armed forces and I look forward to further progress in addressing some of the challenges facing our veterans especially concerning housing health and employability opportunities which of course other speakers have already mentioned I was delighted that the cabinet secretary chose to launch the commissioner's report Transition in Scotland at the Scottish Fire and Rescue College in Cambusline before I became an MSP I worked for Strathclyde fire brigade for some 10 years and Scotland's fire and rescue service continues to employ veterans in a number of different roles Strathclyde fire and rescue is one of the many bodies to sign up in support of the armed forces corporate covenant which offers a commitment to support the armed forces community as well as recognising their contribution to society indeed during the launch of the commissioner's report last month the cabinet secretary highlighted the Scottish fire and rescue service as being an excellent model of an employer that is actively supportive of veterans I'd also like to echo the words of Alasdair Hay the chief officer for Scottish fire and rescue service who said that former armed forces personnel bring outstanding benefits to their employers and display qualities of integrity, professionalism and leadership indeed during my time as an employee of Strathclyde fire brigade I met a number of veterans who had moved into working for Strathclyde fire brigade at that time and all of them were extremely professional and all of them were an asset to their organisation it is regret therefore that despite benefiting from these valuable skills a number of veterans continue to experience barriers to finding employment after their service ends employability among service leavers is a key concern raised in the veteran commissioner's recent report in his report he highlights research by Poppy Scotland which suggests that levels of unemployment among the ex-service community in Scotland are worryingly high this is particularly evident for early service leavers in Mary Fee highlighted earlier with figures suggesting that only 52% of early service leavers find employment within six months of leaving compared with 85% of those who have served longer research commissioned by the Royal British Legion in 2011 found that inability to secure alternative employment is one of the key reasons why some veterans are unable to successfully adjust to civilian life the study also highlighted the importance of a range of other factors including mental health issues limited social networks difficulties and lack of awareness of available support a 2012 report by Citizens Advice Scotland entitled Civvy Street the New Front Line also looked at evidence suggesting that some veterans are restricted by a lack of awareness of available support services furthermore the report suggested that despite the availability of an array of support organisations a number of service leavers do not seek help due to a sense of pride and a desire to remain independent it's estimated that there are upwards of 400,000 ex-service men and women living in Scotland today but over 50 veterans organisations and charities dedicated to supporting them I've seen first hand some of the excellent work taking place all over the country in support of Scotland's veterans and like other members I've also visited Erskine on a number of occasions and I think it's an excellent organisation that does really first class work I should of course declare an interest at this point in that I am an honorary patron of armed forces legal action known as AFLA the group was founded in 2013 by East Rymfisher based solicitor and RAF officer Alan Steele in order to offer discounted legal services to serving and former members of the armed forces AFLA has cross-party support and is backed by a number of other MSPs who are honorary patrons including Willie Rennie who's not here today but Ken Macintosh and Jackson Carlaw who both are Steele will be known to many in the chamber Alan and his wife Lindsay have been working tirelessly to grow AFLA and build a network of law firms in Scotland and across the UK to deliver better services for the armed forces community I understand that AFLA now has over 100 partner law firms signed up to the initiative with ambitious plans for further expansion abroad to a number of countries in the Commonwealth Although a relatively new initiative the success of AFLA so far is testament to the highest team in which our service men and women are held and I look forward to it going from strength to strength in the years ahead One of the curious things I think about the establishment of this initiative is that there cannot be a year that passes without new veterans initiatives being established and yet we always think that everything is covered but there's always room for more support in new areas and so I'm delighted that that particular new initiative is doing so well In conclusion, while it's clear that there's a wide range of support available for service men and women a key challenge is removing the barriers that prevent veterans and the dependents from accessing those services The Scottish Government has made significant progress in addressing those issues however it's clear from the commissioner's report that we can do even more to help people leaving the military I'm encouraged by the cabinet secretary's undertaking to work with key stakeholders in order to take those recommendations forward Our armed forces personnel sacrifice so much for us it's only right that we honour their service by supporting veterans Many thanks I now call on David Stewart to be followed by Christine Grahame Thank you, Presiding Officer A little more than five short years ago here in this very Parliament I opened the member's debate raising concerns about the possible closure of RAF King Los The campaign that MSPs will be aware was cross-party and supported by all the then party leaders Alex Salmond, Annabelle Goldie Tavish Scott and Ian Gray I argued then that armed forces personnel have a social covenant with our country at times of peace and at war and at times of conflict I personally remember the famous lines from John Maxwell Edmunds, who repeated every Remembrance Sunday across the length and breadth of Scotland When you go home, tell them of us and say for their tomorrow we gave our today The covenant was best illustrated to me 23 years ago when the American naval base in Danone was closed with a loss of over 1500 American personnel The local community rallied round and set up a dynamic economic community committee supported by the EU and government funding to diversify the economy and provide new jobs The UK government set up the armed forces covenant in May 2011 with the full financial muscle to this philosophical principle My interest in this debate about veterans probably like most other members of the Parliament today is personal My father did his national service with the RAF as a fresh-faced 18-year-old King Los nearly 70 years ago In my last year of school the Highlands, like Jackson Carlaw I seriously thought that I would join in the RAF but it never came to fruition Perhaps Mr Carlaw and I should set up a support group on the basis that we're not very good at hitting targets as well But what I will promise today is that I will join the cross-party group on veterans I think that it sounds like an excellent group and it's one I personally would be very happy to put my time into However, Presiding Officer there was a positive ring to this My time in Westminster from 1997 I seized the opportunity to serve for the RAF for two terms as part of the Armed Forces parliamentary scheme Just when I'm on my feet you may know in my time in the corporate body I felt very strongly that this Parliament should be actively involved with the Armed Forces parliamentary scheme and I would certainly endorse my colleagues like Liam Chalmers who's in the back of the chamber today to perhaps pursue this with the Scottish Parliament because I do believe that parliamentarians here could be part of a UK-wide scheme which gives lots of experience to parliamentarians In my own case, I had placements Brian I thank you for giving away and also just to mention that in the previous debate we had got to cross-party support for just such an initiative and I spoke to the MP who's in charge of that scheme and we are taking that forward and the Parliamentary Corporate Body will take it forward. I think it's a very useful scheme although it was suggested to me that it should be a scheme in Scotland which I hadn't thought of before rather than one with the UK although we're looking at both options just now Just to say I support what the cabinet secretary said my own experience of the scheme was that it was extremely successful I would certainly endorse either model the key thing is that we get parliamentarians to have first hand experience of the Armed Forces across Scotland and support that initiative Just to say very briefly before I move on to the standard of aspects that during my two terms I had experienced RAF King-Los and Lossy Mouth as well as a very memorable week in Basra and Iraq which I can perhaps bore members to a great length at another time on but during that two terms I flew in a tornado fast jet a Nimrod maritime aircraft and a seeking search and rescue helicopter and perhaps if one example at my last day with the RAF the seeking that I was involved in had an emergency to tend to at Glencoe and I remember distinctly flying a few hundred feet above Loch Ness on the way to Glencoe and watched and observed first hand the bravery the expertise and professionalism the pilots and the winch crew as they saved the life of a young Swiss mountaineer who had fallen off the mountain and had severe facial injuries in the mountain accident and so was a very brief snapshot but has given me tremendous aberration for the armed forces and veterans it should always be remembered of course that people do not stay in the armed forces forever however our responsibility to these people who have served our country does not stop when they leave the services the Government will wait with them and those in service community does not stop when they rejoin civilian life it's also important to bear in mind that we as a country have invested a great deal of money in training in service men and women and whilst we have a duty to ensure that they are looked after we also have a duty to ensure that this investment in skills and training is not lost to society that's one reason why it's important we find a high quality transition from the services to civilian life the unfortunate picture but prayed by some in the media is a dysfunctional ex-servicemen and women struggling to cope with meaningless civilian life success however makes the headlines but for the vast majority of veterans the step back into civilian life is painless and successful indeed the more typical reality is like a constituent of mine from Inverness who proudly served the scots guards and like most of his fellow guards men he took every opportunity for training and education that the army offered now having left the army he's currently out on a successful career with a civil engineering company and we value the special skills that a service veteran can bring of course as we've heard from other members this afternoon some veterans do find transition difficult and need our assistance help me be needed with finding a home or a job or with a variety of health problems where help is needed it must be given and given very quickly and we know from the valuable work carried out by the Scottish Veterans Commissioner Fraser that around 1800 men and women complete their military service in Scotland at each year the commissioner has been charged by the Scottish Government to investigate how veterans cope with transition using the excellent forces in mind trust as a guide and currently in Scotland there are around 400,000 veterans and it's the Scottish Government's responsibility that they've adequate and suitable housing health and social care education skills and training to readjust to civilian life a key aspect of this is ensuring that veterans are not socially excluded and that appropriate support, guidance and assistance both during transition and the many years thereafter I'm glad that the Scottish Government has established the Scottish Veterans Fund to support groups and organisations that provide assistance to Scotland's ex-service personnel, their families and their dependents and this is a minister's collaboration with Veterans Scotland it will focus a new or innovative approach to veterans issues and will seek to develop areas and activities that are not currently funded by either the Scottish Government or the Ministry of Defence however the commission's report clearly shows that veterans need a lot more support especially in terms of housing health and social care and in conclusion because I'm conscious of time I really welcome this debate that we've had this afternoon which highlights the special skills that veterans bring to the workplace and society is large let's not forget that we owe veterans not an end of a meaningful career but a transition to new one where a veterans considerable skills continue to be utilised for the benefit of society as a whole thank you now Colin Christine Graham to be followed by Bruce Crawford thank you very much I recognise the point that Dave Stewart makes that for many leaving the armed forces for civilian life transition is successful but it's for those leaving the armed forces who find it very difficult that I think we must particularly focus in adapting to civilian life and I very much agree with Jackson Carlaw's speech where he says they've been in a structured situation some have come from chaotic lives to a structured situation and then that all stops when they're discharged and we must support them because for some the struggle takes their lives to extremes of alcoholism drugs of their relationships there will be veterans who are homeless on the streets of Scotland and there are certainly veterans in our prisons and regrettably there are many for crimes of violence connected to alcohol now these are failures of society for these individuals and they're not there only because of post traumatic stress disorder that may play part some it may be simply the awfulness of adjusting from an organised structured army or naval life to civilian life and it's of particular interest to me because of my constituency where the Scottish Borders has a long history of parties and families joining the regiments over the decades indeed the centuries and indeed I have Glenchor's barracks located in my Midlothian part of the constituency so I therefore commend Lothian's veterans centre because we were referred to earlier by Jackson Carlaw who addressed the various help that you might need for quite simple things like getting a GP and so on while Lothian veterans centre Llekeidian Dalgy provides ex-service personal and other families with support and it's face to face support in matters of health and wellbeing housing employment and support and something that nobody has mentioned comradeship and remembrance because there will be people who are grieving who have been discharged grieving for injured comrades who did not return In the Borders veterans Scotland has a dedicated and very comprehensive website again specifically dealing with these issues it's headed civilian life in the Scottish Borders this signposts veterans and their families to what is available to them and what priorities they may be given for example in housing they're directed to the low cost initiative for first time buyers and to the various charitable organisation that specifically do housing for Scottish veterans in health a simple matter about how to locate a GP in your area and how to be on their panel in employment the career transition partnership is simple things how to write a CV how to research the job market how to learn interview skills issues which will not have arisen fallen in a long time when in service but on the employment issue I want to turn to initiative by person in homes under the banner combat to construction which quite impressed me actually I was there to see about a bus shelter but things developed this is initiative I'll tell you about that later when Dave Stewart tells us about his flight experiences for veterans in England this is a two year apprenticeship scheme leading to a level 2 VQ after those two years usually as joiners or bricklayers the pay rate while in apprenticeship is £8 an hour now in England close to 100 ex-forces personnel have joined that company since September 2014 on that two year apprenticeship framework leading as I said to that level in wood or trowel occupations now this is fully supported with CITB and the skills funding agency it's called combat to construction and if you little term to engage a combat to construction training in Scotland to train as a joiner or bricklayer would currently entail them having to enrol on a four year apprenticeship leading to a level 3 SVQ the four year duration according to this company does not work for two reasons first it's not commercially viable for the company but actually more importantly it's not attractive for ex-forces personnel who do not want four years of their training the company is exploring alternatives for Scotland such as a commercial training programme with no SFA funding and therefore no Scottish building apprenticeship and training council involvement but this would result in a lesser qualification that wouldn't be transferable or recognised outside personment itself alternatively the potential for a two year timber frame erection qualification to level 2 is being investigated why am I going to this in detail because it seems to me like a really good idea that we could take from England I've got no problem with good ideas from England Cabinet Secretary ex-service personnel are used to taking orders when they're in service and in the trade they're used to taking instructions they're used to being outdoor work and they are fit so while I accept of course there have to be rules regarding apprenticeships and national qualifications that the Government can be looking at some flexibility which might be possible for those suitable and returning from service where perhaps their training there could contribute towards that qualification and I noted Cabinet Secretary your comments and apprenticeships at the beginning and I know of kind of pounce this on you that's the way to do it but I hope you will look into it now finally I must commend Poppy Scotland and I'm going to do this to support in my constituent Karine Boyd Russell whose son Paul McGuigan was shot and murdered in 2009 within 24 hours of arriving in Iraq as a security guard for G4S he was shot by a fellow ex-serviceman there is an on-going increase so I must constrain my comments except to say through liaising with my officer I think Poppy Scotland were absolutely wonderful providing funding for accommodation for this poor laddie's mother so that she could go and attend at least the early stages of the inquest which otherwise was way beyond her means I've put that on the record because sometimes people don't know the other things that Poppy Scotland does way beyond the serving of the poppies and where that money goes in conclusion I'm very much heartened by the tone and content of this debate because for me it shows the Parliament has other personalities quite different from the rather raucous hostility at First Minister's questions and in support we do this in support, I hope in recognition of the value of our armed forces and veterans and I hope at the end of the vote tonight we speak as one voice many thanks and now Colin Bruce Crawford to be followed by Jane Baxter thank you for saying it I'm really enjoying the election campaign I'm enjoying being out there there's a lot of cut and thrust obviously and it can sometimes get a bit heated and get real mature discussion around a really serious issue and I think everyone's treated it so far on that basis I'm glad I'm taking part in this important debate but forgive me if at the beginning I indulge myself in just a little bit of nostalgia I can't quite go back as far as Jackson Carlaw and the Sopwith Camel but I do know that I probably would never go I probably missed the targets as well because I think my eyesight is as difficult as your Jackson Carlaw the early days following the election of the SNP minority government in 2007 I've been pleased to be unexpectedly given the role and government as liaison with the MOD as part of my job as Minister for Parliament and it was in that role I attended the first meeting between the Scottish Government and the tri-service heads of the armed forces in Scotland and I recall well the impact that the former First Minister's words had on how they felt of the armed forces in Scotland that they made up the very strong threads that made up the very tartan of Scotland and the former First Minister went on to say that he wanted the service heads to challenge the SNP Government to produce the best possible package of support for Scotland's veterans it was a message frankly that the service heads took up incredibly enthusiastically but just as importantly so did the ministers and at that time it was Stuart Maxwell who did a great job at that time and the civil servants who are now somewhere here today supporting the minister who are responsible for the delivery of the policies the results were I think as Jackson alluded to earlier I think we've got probably the best package of support for veterans anywhere on these islands now that's not to say that services can't be improved as others have said already whether that's in the areas of housing, health employability wellbeing, information coordination all the issues taken on in the very constructive report put together by the Scottish commissioners called Transition Scotland and others have outlined that however I do believe strongly that the right person to be leading this work and delivering the required improvements is Keith Brown the cabinet secretary himself the cabinet secretary is highly respected in his community not only because he's a veteran himself but because he's shown in his role in government that he's determined and committed to making a difference now one particular area in the Transition Scotland report I want to pick up on and quote from a little extensively of colleagues that will give me because actually I couldn't agree more with what the commissioner said I think he in the way he captured and these three paragraphs brings together to be about this afternoon in the same way as Keith Brown talked about that the need for everyone in society to recognise the contribution that service personnel can bring commissioner said I've also become aware of the need to promote the strength, skills and attributes of our service personnel with much more passion and determination too often these people are labelled either mad, bad or sad I gave this service to a talented and committed cohort to make a considerable contribution to Scotland's economy communities and society after they complete their military service reinforcing the positive qualities of service leavers and challenging the negative perceptions is I am convinced the first step in changing attitudes opening up employment opportunities and making it easier to make a good transition I think that explains very well what we're about and I think that the commissioner captured it well in promoting the strengths, skills and attributes of our service personnel the story from my own family one of my sons joined the RAF which seems to be a common theme so far that's emerging around one of the services around here this afternoon and I hope he won't mind me saying this because he's a big strong man now but at the time just let's say like most young men he was a bit raw and a little naive about the world some people still say about that about me yet I remember and the time leading up to his joining reading about the RAF's core values because I did have concerns about what he was letting himself in for I hadn't really understood it all at that time as much as I should have done mutual and self respect integrity, moral courage honesty, responsibility, justice physical courage loyalty, commitment, teamwork personal excellence, discipline, pride who could argue with these core values I also recall well my heart bursting with pride when he made his transition from his initial training period on to life as a fully fledged serviceman at a ceremony at RAF Halton that young man was well in his way to embracing the core values of the RAF core values that have served him well very well indeed has made a successful transition from service life to city street but of course not all of our service people make that successful transition many have their own lives put their own lives on hand on their own lives in jeopardy as they have tried to help us all we owe them a huge debt for this and when members of the armed forces return from conflict hang up their uniforms and become a city it can be a very difficult time for them most of them have no idea of the scale of the challenge that that can be leaving behind their job having to find accommodation sorting paperwork to apply for benefits as well as adjusting to a completely different way of life these are all individual challenges but when you put them all together it can result in serious problems for some so ensuring that every service leader has the skills, support and advice to complete this transition successfully is crucial not only to the individual but also to their family and wider society and I know again from the first hand example of my son the incredible training and skills he was provided during that time and that's what made me think also of the page 20 of the commissioner's report where he refers to the benefit that young service leavers might be able to get from being part of opportunities for all because obviously they may have missed out on that opportunity the first time round because they decided on a military career and the recommendation goes on to say the Scottish Government should consider reducing flexibility to relax age restrictions extend the eligibility for a criteria within the opportunities for all early service leavers programme I think that's quite a good idea Cabinet Secretary, if you don't mind me saying so and I'm sure it's something you'll be looking at very closely inclusion at my constituency we are very lucky to have ASAP the arm services advice project which specifically provides focused advice and information to the armed forces community ASAP is part of the local citizen advice bureau and it's run by Ali Gemell who's a veteran himself and Ali and his colleagues have the ability to help those struggling with the massive life changes they're facing and today I'd like to thank people like Ali and others working for Poppy Scotland or whatever of the many many ex-servicemen and women's charities that exist in Scotland they've given that extra bit of help to the people when they need it most you do an invaluable job many thanks now Colin Jeane Baxter to be followed by Joan McAlpine thank you, Presiding Officer I should perhaps begin by saying that I can't share with you today any tales of my life in uniform sadly I never even made it into the brownies of the girl guides but it is a privilege, nevertheless to be able to speak in today's debate and to have the opportunity to pay tribute to and express my gratitude for the thought to protect our country and the freedoms that should take for granted we have recently commemorated Gillipallee 100 and Anzac Day where people across the country attended services to remember those who gave their lives in some of the fiercest fighting that took place during the great war we are, of course, in the midst of four years of commemoration remembering the centenary years of the great war and all of those who fought in that war however Presiding Officer as the recent report published by the Scottish Veterans Commissioner shows the challenges that our service personnel faced today in transitioning to civilian life are still very real and significant indeed it could be argued that with the growing pressures on our local services and with the very real housing crisis affecting all of Scotland's citizens that transition is being made even more difficult for our service personnel as a five councillor I was inundated with case work from constituents who had a desperate need for housing or whose housing was unsuitable as an MSP I still find that housing is one of the biggest issues for my constituents and I know that my colleagues will agree that a large part of their case work focuses on the housing needs of their constituents for our veterans this crisis provides an additional problem as the report by the Scottish Veterans Commissioner highlights there is a unique difficulty for veterans and their families who have had their housing needs catered for when they are faced with a situation where they have to find a long term home for their families Given the shortages in affordable social and council housing there is always a very real possibility that our service personnel transitioning to civilian life will be left homeless and I do not believe that that is an acceptable situation as a Parliament we accept that in Scotland we need to build more affordable homes and that governments of all colours have failed to adequately address this problem in the past in Fife with a programme to build 2,700 homes but we need a national house building strategy to end our housing crisis as a Fife councillor I had the privilege of working with councillor Charles Haffey a Royal Navy veteran who saw active duty in the Falklands war and to his Fife's armed forces champion as a Fife MSP I continued to work with Charles and to be immensely proud of the work which is done by Labour led Fife councillor to support veterans Fife truly has led the way in improving engagement with and support to the armed forces community in particular extensive work has been undertaken to recognise and put in place the support measures that our veterans need to find employment and to set up a new life out with the armed forces Fife councillor and its partners in the public sector and the number of volunteer organisations have worked together closely to ensure that our veterans have access to the support structures and services that will enable them to use our unique skills and talents to achieve their full potential This is all brought together on the council's website on the Fife firm based pages and I also know that councillor Haffey takes his role very seriously and is conscientious in his efforts to build effective partnership working and networks to support armed forces personnel and veterans and of course their families The report also points out that the future for many veterans is not always filled with such optimism Indeed, challenges highlighted in the report such as social isolation, mental health problems disability and lack of basic skills can have a devastating effect on our veterans ability to reintegrate into and thrive in civilian society For our veterans returning to civilian life with the mental and physical disability we must do more We know that improvement is needed in our mental health services and that we must make it easier for everyone to access these services We must also do more to tackle the stigma of mental health and to raise awareness of these conditions in our communities It is particularly important that our veterans can access these services and get help quickly as while we know that mental health conditions are not significantly higher among our veterans their illnesses tend to be more complex and severe For our veterans suffering with physical disabilities we must again ensure that we are doing everything possible to remove the barriers to them living full and active lives In particular, we have a duty to ensure the social care and additional support that they need without being financially burdened by the costs We have a special duty and responsibility to care for and support those who have been injured while serving this country and too often it seems that this is not happening Just this week for example I was contacted by Mr Smith a constituent of mine from the south who has asked me to share his case with the chamber Mr Smith who served in Northern Ireland was injured in one of his trues of duty and in later years subsequently lost his leg However, despite fighting to receive the war pension which he feels he is entitled to and working with a number of organisations who have been helping and supporting him Mr Smith has been told that the MOD have lost the paperwork relating to his case and cannot therefore give him the financial support he needs We all know that this is not good enough and that veterans like Mr Smith should not become victims of system failure but should be treated with the dignity and respect they are entitled to Presiding Officer, as I stated before I am immensely grateful for the contribution of our veterans I am also optimistic that in Scotland it is becoming easier for our veterans to reintegrate and play a full and active part in civilian life I have highlighted some of the things that we are doing well and areas where I believe we could do more We need to make it easier for all stakeholders to work together to make sure that we get it right for the members of our veteran community and their families Thank you Thank you very much I will now call on Joan McAlpine Llyr MacArthur I too welcome this debate and my opportunity to participate in praising the veterans contribution to Scotland and in particular welcoming the first report of our veterans commissioner I think that the report certainly vindicates the appointment of a commissioner and that decision is one of a range of initiatives for veterans by the Scottish Government which have attracted cross-party support in particular the Government's support for the Scottish Veterans Fund which has distributed 700,000 to relevant charities around Scotland and I note that the contributions that other members have made that the vast majority of veterans go on to make a very positive contribution to the life in our country and that's why a smooth transmission is so important which is what the commissioner has concentrated on in his report and obviously anything that we can do to ease transmission from service life to civilian life is very, very important however sometimes obviously if that transmission goes wrong if the support's not there that's when problems develop further down the line so that's why today I'm going to concentrate on mental health issues faced by a minority of veterans which can develop long after their period of service is concluded Research published in The Lancet has found that those personnel who served in combat roles in Iraq and Afghanistan are far more likely to suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder and mental health issues than others and those in combat roles where of course disproportionately represented in Scottish life because of the strength and expertise of Scottish infantry units there's concern because of this that in the next 15 years might deliver a potential mental health time bomb in terms of rapidly increasing numbers of veterans seeking support for post-traumatic stress disorder type mental health issues statistics suggest that on average it takes 13 years from the first onset of symptoms for a veteran to reach out for advice and support and professional treatment and of course next year marks 13 years since the beginning of the Iraq war I appreciate that the commissioner on page 29 report does talk about the mental health services that are provided and indeed he praises them and the work that's been done and he singles out two particular charities third sector charities which are supported by the Scottish Government for praise one is combat stress which provides post-traumatic stress disorder to veterans and is a joint initiative with the NHS which is funded to the tune of £1.2 million a year and he also singles out veterans first point which was created in 2009 in partnership with NHS Lothian to deliver a range of support including clinical support and again I welcome the 640,000 given to it by the Scottish Government Doctor Lucy Abraham who's the lead condition says that a key part of the success of veterans first point is that peer support workers with the psychotherapy team and previous to the service being established veterans could be deterred by some of the complicated referral routes and the stigma around mental health so it's a model of good practice and I'm very pleased to see that it's being rolled out other health board areas in Scotland using money made available from fines leathied on the banks following the LIBOR scandal the funding apparently is worth over two years and I think that's probably something quite appropriate that people who have served their country in such an exemplary way are funded by fines on organisations that perhaps have not there's considerable need for such support on the veterans first point model in my own area of the south of Scotland although we also have examples of good practice such as the charity First Base in Dumfries which works with veterans' experience and difficulties across the region and I should say that the Nithsdale area which includes the town of Dumfries has one of the highest concentrations of veterans in Scotland the First Base project was established in 2010 and has worked with 150 clients with an age range of between 20 and 80 and when the project was first launched the waiting time for a veteran to receive support for PTSD type systems from the local mental health team was around nine months now. To address this problem First Base came up with an innovative model of its own. It reached an agreement whereby they raised 5,000 to fund half a day a week's work from a young psychotherapist in the local NHS and after a year NHS Dumfries and Galloway took over the funding of the service However, the partnership became a victim of its own success word spread of the excellent and effective treatment that many local veterans have received and the waiting list has once again grown so First Base have asked if they can have another half day of the psychotherapist's time but unfortunately that's not possible because pressure of work means that his colleagues would need to backfill for him more than they do already and that's just not possible because it's for the library cash being channeled through the veterans first point roll out to assist in Dumfries and Galloway however the regents director of psychology services says that the short term nature of the funding available through this grant is problematic the minister may be aware that recruiting NHS doctors in rural areas is challenging in itself and often the number of consultant vacancies is very high so recruiting someone for a short term post is obviously going to be even more challenging so it's been put to me from within the NHS that a long term solution is needed and it's also been put to me that a decentralised model would be more appropriate for a rural area like Dumfries and Galloway more appropriate than say the Edinburgh model where you've got a drop in and you've got a centre of excellence that has been suggested that perhaps if we were able to recruit a psychotherapist that person could travel around the region offering treatment as close to home as possible now I know that the veterans minister has a meeting soon with First Base and I'm happy to raise this issue in advance and Four Ward is always four armed but I know that he will do everything that he can to help because as the commissioner has said in his report the services that we're getting in place particularly the collaboration between third sector and government is working very well so I will also appreciate anything that the cabinet secretary can do to help when he meets First Base so in conclusion it's been said already I am aware that I've concentrated on some of the challenges facing veterans but I am very very well aware of the contribution that they make and I'm delighted to be able to contribute today Thank you and I now call Liam McArthur to be followed by Mike Mackenzie Thank you very much like others I very much welcome this debate notably the very constructive and consensual tone that's characterised the contributions from every member so far a little like James Baxter I can boast no personal pedigree in the uniformed services although I did manage two years in the cubs and two years in the army cadets so I have no excuse to play football and get sweets from the tuck shop I took part in a similar debate in this chamber just over a year ago and I'm delighted that we have a further opportunity to consider issues relating to veterans and in this instance the very considerable positive contribution they can and do make to this country and the debate last year along with others I confess I raised questions about the creation of the veterans commissioner at the time there were certainly concerns including even within the veterans community that resources might be better deployed by increasing funding to organisations already providing valuable support and advice to veterans we are however well beyond that debate now and I am happy to pay tribute to the work that Eric Fraser does generally since his appointment last August but also for the very measured and insightful report he's produced into the issue of transition out of the armed forces for those settling in Scotland we recognise that the transition can present serious challenges for certain individuals and their families but I think the commissioner has helpedfully identified a number of very practical measures that can be taken that would deliver real improvements, improvements that will help service personnel and their families but also secure benefits for our wider society and indeed our economy Poppy Scotland and the Royal British Legion as the Labour amendment points out have identified other areas where more targeted to be provided and I think those are certainly worthy of full and detailed consideration and I welcome the confirmation from Keith Brown that this is currently happening in Scotland every year around 1800 men and women complete their military service and settle with their families in communities right across the country this transition from the armed services into civilian life invariably involves leaving behind not simply a job but also a home and a community a way of life in fact it's worth acknowledging as the commissioner that most like Bruce Crawford's son cope with this change remarkably well demonstrating that amongst the many skills that veterans have is the ability to adapt and deal with a range of fundamental life changing experiences that few of us have ever had to endure where this works well not only does the transition see employment in a home secured but also a strong and supportive social network established enabling each veteran and their family to become contributors to society over the longer term as the motion rightly identifies those leaving the armed services do so more often than not with good training and skills as well as a sense of duty and discipline all of which should make them attractive propositions for potential employers across a range of different fields this is not gone unnoticed of course I know from discussions with those in the oil and gas sector for example that they have for some time now as ideal candidates to fill many of the much publicised skills gaps and vacancies in that sector and what effect the current downturn in the oil price will have on those opportunities for veterans is perhaps uncertain but the natural fit seems one that is set to continue to be of mutual benefit this example also illustrates the benefit indeed the necessity of good collaborative working between different stakeholders oil and gas UK and of Peter have worked closely with the enterprise agencies and veterans groups to help identify and open up these opportunities without such a joined up approach it's difficult to see how much could have been achieved on behalf of those transitioning back into civilian life and this focus on collaboration is a theme in Eric Fraser's report he rightly praises for example the Glasgow veterans employment programme run by Glasgow's helping heroes in the city council under the scheme a wage subsidy is paid to employers taking on ex-servicemen who would otherwise not qualify for employment support this allows existing skills to be adapted to provide a better fit with the civilian jobs market the benefits of this on top of delivering employment for veterans are estimated to be in the region of £17 million through both increased economic activity but also reduced benefit costs I was also interested here about the project run by 4th valley Chamber of Commerce called veterans into new employment an initiative with the backing of D, Poppy Scotland and others that recognises the transferable skills which many service leaders have that can be applied to running their own businesses turning if I may to the needs of younger service leaders the cabinet secretary will be aware that Mr Fraser has identified a number of improvements that can and should be made to support this particular group specifically there is the call for the Scottish Government to quote consider introducing a flexibility to relax the age restrictions extending the eligibility criteria for opportunities for all for early service those entering the services at an early age may not have had the chance to improve their educational qualifications during their short military service but find that when they leave they are already too old to benefit from opportunities for all this would seem my straight forward this would seem straight forward to fix and unlike Bruce Crawford I very much hope that the cabinet secretary and his officials could find a way to do that in the near future Cabinet Secretary Dean MacArthur for taking intervention just to point out that it is possible up to now the flexibility is there up to the age 24 so for example somebody joining the services at 18 in a three-year short service engagement would be eligible for some years to take up those opportunities but I would undertake both in relation to the point you make and Bruce Crawford to look at it further I thank the cabinet secretary for that intervention Eric Fraser also then goes on to call for the Scottish Government and Skills Development Scotland to consider actively promoting modern apprenticeships to early service leavers and to their potential employers and while it might be slightly surprising that this is not happening today I think Keith Brown made a fairly accurate assessment of the situation but again I welcome his commitment to look at what more can be done to make this information more widely available Deputy Presiding Officer as I've said many leaving the service do so very successfully thanks to a greater or lesser extent to the support they receive from a wide range of agencies it is no secret however that some do struggle and in this context I wish to concentrate my concluding remarks like Joe McAlpine on the issue of mental health an absolute priority for me personally and for the Liberal Democrats more generally the stigma surrounding mental health is a problem for our society as a whole but for those with a background in the services this can often be markedly worse for the reasons highlighted by Stuart Maxwell in his contribution I'm delighted therefore that Liberal Democrats have pledged an extra £10 million to help support servicemen and women suffering from mental health problems this more than doubles the money currently available to help veterans overcome problems such as post-traumatic stress disorder and is part of a £3.5 billion investment in improving mental health provision from which Scotland would benefit significantly it would also help provide support for alcohol and drug misuse and dual diagnosis of substance misuse and mental health problems it would allow for investment in services such as community-based therapy short stay hospital treatment and more targeted employment support to help get people back into work we ask our armed forces to put their lives on the line for our country it is only right that as a country we provide them with the support they need thereafter to fulfil their potential and make the valuable contribution they and we wish to see them make Deputy Presiding Officer the Cabinet Secretary on what very well judged remarks earlier by drawing attention to the genuine and firm cross-party consensus that exists on veterans issues he's absolutely right and this along with the insights of the veterans commissioner and the tireless work of Poppy Scotland but this Legion, Erskine, CAB and many many others give me confidence that we will see further improvements in the future allowing veterans to make the positive contribution they and we wish to see them make thank you members up to seven minutes for their speeches I'm afraid I must ask the members to keep to their seven minutes Mike Mackenzie to be followed by Graham Day thank you, Presiding Officer I'm pleased to speak in this debate because it was my good fortune for over 30 years of running a business of having the opportunity of employing and working with a number of armed forces veterans and some of these were amongst the very best people I have ever worked with all of them brought valuable qualities to their workforce and part of that was a healthy and intelligent attitude to work part of that was an ability to fit in constructively with a team and part of it was a loyalty to and a regard for the safety and wellbeing of other members of the team something that's of crucial importance on building sites and all of these qualities are important a valuable place in any workforce but what was truly outstanding about the veterans I employed over the years what was remarkable was the self-discipline they brought to bear they would always arrive in time for work with their boots polished and I was never greatly concerned about the boots being polished but I greatly admired the self-discipline that manifested itself in every aspect of their work and along with this went pride in their work the pride of a task well accomplished or a job well done and from this in turn arose that sense of dignity that quality that's been described as the dignity of labour and it's an attitude that manifests itself in the belief that even the smallest and the seemingly unimportant task is worth doing well and when quality is a realm then this can only be truly delivered when we take this approach the whole can only be greater than the sum of its parts when each part of our various labours is delivered with the care and the wish to deliver our respective parts well and in the business context this for me anyway is the basis of real long lasting and sustainable wealth creation Presiding Officer it was my experience that this sense of personal worth and dignity is a quality which although it's not exclusive to armed forces veterans it's certainly more prevalent in veterans and from this dignity in my experience springs a kind of unassuming self-confidence that's an all too rare quality and it's an easy confidence which allows good and accurate communications The veterans I worked with were always happy to come and tell you about problems and discuss them in honest and constructive terms and this is something I found to be invaluable because any business that doesn't have this constructive dialogue and feedback loop with its employees denies itself the full opportunity of real and meaningful improvement in what it does I must also say that when I employed tradesmen who have learned their trade and armed services that they were not only the two masters of their craft but they also had a can-do and problem solving attitude that is equally valuable Presiding Officer I've dwelt on these qualities at some length because I'm aware that our veterans do not always enjoy such positive perceptions Part of that seems to go hand in hand with the nature of the employment and undertake on our behalf As a nation in Scotland I think we have a healthy distaste for war but it's unfortunate when this spills over into misguided perceptions affecting the individuals involved It's been my experience that such negative perceptions just don't match the reality So that's why I'm glad that our Cabinet Secretary with responsibility for veterans and the first of any UK nation to have that ministerial responsibility as a veteran himself and therefore understands the needs of veterans That's why I'm glad that he's wasted no time in appointing Eric Fraser as the veterans commissioner who is himself another veteran and that's why I'm glad in turn that he has wasted no time in producing what I thought was a very insightful transitions in Scotland report which details a number of practical suggestions for improvement Scotland is a good record of looking after our veterans but there are of course improvements that can be made and I think we need to be careful not to overstate the negative aspects of the challenges facing veterans I'm pleased to share my very positive experiences of employing veterans in the hope that other employers will recognise the many good qualities that veterans bring to their work and the valuable contribution that they can make to any business and also to Scotland at large Thank you very much I now call Graeme Dey to be followed by Hans Alamalic I very much welcome this opportunity to speak about the contribution of our veterans and note that whilst those who serve in the armed forces play a vital role in protecting our national security the contribution that they can and do make to society does not end when they leave the services like others I should perhaps declare an interest my maternal grandfather rose to the rank of major along the way when I was in the military cross in the Gordon Highlanders and the nephew of a pay core staff sergeant and the cousin of someone who reached the rank of captain so this is a subject close to my heart and I echo the comments of colleagues and welcome in the tone that's been struck in this debate in recent months two important reports on the support available for veterans as the transition to civilian life have been published one was the follow up to Poppy Scotland's 2009 research into the employment support needs of veterans and the other was the transition in Scotland the first report from the veterans commissioner Eric Fraser which was showcased at an event hosted by Alec Ferguson here in Parliament just a few short weeks ago it's important to acknowledge as Poppy Scotland's six years on revisiting the employment support needs of veterans in Scotland report does the developments that have taken place since that first piece of work was published in 2009 new resources dedicated to supporting veterans transitioning to civilian life have been introduced during the intervening period we have made progress we've seen a renewed political focus on meeting veterans needs that has resulted in developments such as the establishment of a minister of veterans in Scotland and the UK-wide adoption of the armed forces covenant more recently we've had the appointment of Eric Fraser who's with us in the gallery today there's been a growing understanding of veterans transition and employment support needs partly as a result of studies by Lord Ashcroft the forces in mind trust the Royal British Legion in Poppy Scotland and we've increased partnership working among support agencies and a range of new services for those that struggle with securing employment partnership working in a general sense that will go going forward I think it's important to acknowledge as others have that the most veterans make a successful transition to civilian life however Poppy Scotland released some concerning veterans employment data last year and whilst the veterans commissioner has noted that these figures only come from the one source at the moment whatever way you look at them they do appear to demonstrate that whilst progress has been made we still have some way to go in terms of specific areas where progress requires to be made whereas sea veterans, especially older service leavers as aggressive, inflexible or difficult to manage mad, bad or sad a phrase I think Eric Fraser himself referred to at the parliamentary event and that's got to change these people may often have fought in dangerous conditions just because they've had such experience does not mean that they cannot integrate back into civilian life or should not be fully supported to do so Lord Ashcroft and the forces in mind trust have recommended the adoption of personal development plans those would provide a record of qualifications training, education and achievements for all service personnel and as I think Eric Fraser acknowledged this is something the cabinet secretary has been advocating for quite some time we need to make sure that employers and educational institutions understand the skills, experience and qualifications that service personnel have gained during their time in the military that can make them a real asset I understand that it works on going in the latter case for example the Glasgow Caledonian University's learning partnership which works with the armed forces three colleges in the city and Glasgow's Helping Heroes the scheme is open to armed forces personnel who are nearing the end of their time in the military and considering a return to education to further develop their skills opportunities to study for qualifications at a number of levels are on offer applicants are invited to make a recognition of prior learning claims so that participants can tell the organisers about their previous learning including the valuable knowledge gained through work and life experiences and other education colleges throughout Scotland offer up-skilling programmes to early service leaders and those weaving the armed forces can utilise their exit grants to pursue such courses whilst gaining employment is not a panacea it can help to solve other problems such as securing housing or tackling self-esteem issues that someone may be suffering from we should recognise that while some service personnel weave through choice others have had no option with some handed the P45 while on the front line is a disgrace however the poppy Scotland report notes that for some veterans it's not just the actual gaining employment that can exist in this way for some the social aspects of employment services are as important as the potential of getting a job a number of veterans with employment support needs face a myriad of complex and interrelated social employment and health challenges it may be that getting assistance relating to the world of work may lead to veterans being directed to the required support for other parts of their lives twice last year I spoke in the chamber on the issue of veterans and highlighted the Houses for Heroes project and delighted to advise the cabinet secretary that the project which he launched symbolically by beginning the demolition of the old folks home which was formally on the site is coming to fruition with the construction of the five properties complete and tenancy discussions underway the commissioner very much highlighted in his report the need to ensure that those weaving the forces and information on housing options as with education it's important that the information provided to service leavers in Scotland is tailored to the Scottish system Scottish government currently provides a Scottish housing guide for people leaving the armed forces in ex-service personnel as well as multiple councils including Angus where service leavers can accrue housing points ahead of returning to civil life councils throughout the country providing their own leaflets and information packs it is to Scotland's credit that outside of London we have the most bed spaces dedicated for veterans organisations sorry veterans organisations providing this accommodation include the Scottish veterans residence houses for heroes, Haig housing and Erskine many of these groups were founded in the aftermath of world war one and yet they are continuing to provide an invaluable service all charities use the common housing register hosted by veterans scotland this system which makes use of a single database and a single application for has been highlighted by York University for its impact on meeting an important need it's also key when looking at this topic to remember that veterans families may face difficulties in the move away from the forces this will be a big change for all involved veterans families may well need support too for example spouses who found it difficult to progress their own careers oing to moving frequently or being post overseas these people also have a lot to offer and there is a need to ensure that their wellbeing is catered for as well Presiding officer when our service personnel come to leave the forces they will have done their bit for the country in return we must show and ensure that they can continue to have fulfilling lives get a fair deal after they return to civilian life Many thanks and I now call Hans Alamallach to be followed by George Adam Thank you very much and good afternoon Presiding Officer it is a pleasure for me to speak on this subject of making the most of our veterans contribution to Scotland as some of you will know I have served in the territory army for many years and managed to hit my own targets you will be pleased to know I am also a board member on board of the lowland reserve forces and the cadet association I also have links with ABS the soldiers charity formally the army benevolent fund which helped over 750 soldier veterans and their families in Scotland and the last year alone I have been made aware of the wide spectrum of support that is needed to help former service men and women adapt to civil life or civilian life as we know it in the parliamentary language the public tends to be aware very aware of military or military charities which deal with headline grabbing issues for example mental health care wounded in action and to a lesser degree residential care areas this is a vital this is vital work which has a higher individual cost per case but for comprehensive small numbers of veterans is important when looking at the contribution our veterans we also need to acknowledge the large number of cases that need lower cost support to consider the consequences and our veterans needs in Scotland as civilians for example many ex service personnel and their families and services have managed many aspects of their lives and once they have left the service many are trying to access housing, education and employment also applying for benefits for the first time in many years and in some cases in first time in their lives please note that respectfully separately talking about veterans and their families as this is a very important part of our community I would therefore like to acknowledge the work of the three service own charities the Royal Navy and Royal Marine Charity ABS, the soldiers charity and the Royal Air Force benevolent fund in quietly continuing to provide vital support to many veterans and their families in Scotland now I would like to move to what I feel is an injustice in the Scottish Government's existing guidelines for social care I fully support the insult to injury campaign run by Poppy Scotland and the Royal British Legion it is unacceptable that injured veterans that have been awarded compensation should have most of it taken away to cover the costs of social care I understand that social care services are due to it's not a political comment but due to the SMP policy of the council tax freeze but clawing back the money from injured veterans and other vulnerable people is deeply distasteful I want to try and keep this as much as possible non-political because I know that the issue itself is more important than politics I also know personally friends relatives and constituents who have been in the armed forces and have come to harm but what is more painful is to witness that harm to see that there's not much an individual can do to support them which means that rather than the veterans relying upon charities they really need to rely upon the government, local, national or regional but the governments need to fulfil that post when a soldier signs on the dotted line the soldier knows the serviceman knows that when they put their mark on that piece of paper they are volunteering to put their life on the line for their country yes of course cabinet secretary we're taking the intervention and just to put the question to him because around a third of local authorities don't claw back that money just now in Scotland but if he feels as strongly as he does about that and he's quite entitled to do as I do wouldn't you think the best thing to do would be for though that authority which overlooks pensions and benefits ie the UK Government to simply say that this should be disregarded in terms of care costs a simple way to do it Hans Alamalloch and I can reimburse your time that's very kind of you presiding officer you know it's very easy to blame the other person it's a deserved matter we should be able to make those decisions ourselves and we have in many cases it's all about priorities and I think to recognise the contribution that our servicemen and women make to recognise that the support that they then need to have behind them is important when a service person is serving overseas in the front line they need to know that they have the support their hearts and minds of the community behind them so God forbidding if they come to any harm or in fact their families that there is someone there to pick up the pieces for them and support them and I think that's very important so I in fact would go further and I would say in fact I would go further by saying that the Scottish Government should examine the possibility of free transport free public transport for our veterans veterans because other than our pensioners I think this is another group that deserve that type of contribution from our governments I think recognising the contribution our servicemen and women make is important I know that you do recognise that I take on board all the members I have spoken today I genuinely believe that everyone is just as passionately about this as I do I'm not any special but what I will say is that we need to show more for our women and women who actually put their lives on the floor on the put their lives on the line I'm quite happy to take the intervention Chris Crawford I'll accept that the Scottish Government already make sure that there's free public transport for veterans who've been injured and he's really suggesting to extend that to 400,000 veterans who exist in Scotland I'll be singing one of them Han Salam Alec Yes I am, why not? What's the big problem I'm not questioning your sentiment I'm making that absolutely clear all I'm saying is that we need to be there for our community we need to be there for our pensioners and we need to be there for our veterans and I think that there's no harm in looking at that I'm not saying to you but I'm just asking the Government to look at the possibility to do that Of course Would you also extend that to all the ambulism and policemen and fire engine people or firefighters who've been involved in public service would that also involve them as well as veterans who weren't? I think that you're picking at straws now there's no need for that I think that what I'm saying is I'm talking about those people who sign on the dotted line knowing the fact that they are putting their lives on the line that's a huge difference from other walks of life please don't misunderstand what I'm trying to say what I'm trying to say is let's respect our veterans to the hilt and if it means giving them a free bus ride why not? Thank you George Adam to be followed by Rob Gibson I welcome this debate and the tone the debates had this is a very important debate for me as we have quite a sizable community of veterans within my constituency the armed forces are an important part of life in Renfrewshire the county has more Victoria Cross recipients from an area of its size in any other part of the commonwealth so also personally I can talk about it I don't wish to sound like my colleagues Stuart Stevenson when I talk about this but there was a soldier from Kent called Steven Gifford who by marrying a paisley woman called Margaret Clark in the early 1800s if he had not married that woman settled down in paisley my family may not have been from the town of paisley so that one incident has changed history to that extent he was also a member of a regiment called the 57th regiment that fought in the peninsular wars and there was a battle where 570 men of which 422 died so he seemed to be one of 140 survivors so he was a very lucky individual as well but this kind of a background this type of the very demography of my constituency it's not unusual that we have such a connection with the armed forces it's only logical that many young men and women from our area join the services and as a local MSP I work with the local branch of Legion Scotland in paisley it's called the Comrades Club it doesn't have a number which is very unusual within the Legion in itself we just like to be different that way but some of the cases that we work on are very difficult we work with our welfare officer on many issues and these conclude housing and very other challenging issues and it's one of these things that if you make an appointment with the welfare officer on a Saturday or Sunday you have to ensure you have a taxi to go home because there's a good chance that you won't be able to drive at that stage but I would also like to add that some of the current issues that veterans are dealing with in my constituency as has already been said housing is one of the major issues for veterans and it is quite good to see that in the report the recommendation 1 and 2 mentions the fact that housing is so important because a number of charities in my area provide housing for the veterans and a lot of this housing stock is getting quite old now and hasn't had the type of investment that it needs and it's only right that we ensure that we can work with these charities but they also have to be responsible as well when it's dealing with the members from the armed forces and show some form of leadership with them as well we have a strange situation where you can effectively take the man or woman out of the army but you can't really take the discipline away from them because I had an individual who was difficult to one of the charities he never had a boiler in his home and they were refusing to do it and he kept sitting here because it's almost like an army structure within the charity, it was an officer or had been an officer and he was calling this gentleman Sir when we were just trying to get him some basic needs for his actual property as well and I think this is something I had to say to him you know we're here to represent you and make sure we can get what you need when we're dealing with veterans as many of them have that mindset that they have spent a lot of their life within there and we spend a lot of time discussing which is only a handful of houses and this should not be the case but one of the other things that's quite shocking when you look at it is when you go to armed forces days or remember on Sunday the demography of the men and women who are marching or being part of the praise is changing, they are becoming younger and that in itself creates even further challenges when you're dealing with many of the issues with the reintegration to civilian life there are many problems with young men and women coming away and out of the forces in their mid-20s after signing up in their teens they have a sudden realisation that they have to pay their own bills they have to ensure that they balance their own checkbook and basic financial background like that is sometimes a problem for many young men and women coming out of I've got one constituent in particular he actually got a military cross and then made him redundant when he was in Afghanistan but one of the things that happened was that he had a six-month binge he had money because he'd been six tours in Iraq, three in Afghanistan the army had looked after him during that period when he actually came out of the armed forces he went in an absolute six-month binge with all the money that he'd saved up during that period now no doubt he had a fantastic six months but then he had absolutely nothing he went for housing didn't know about how to pay all his bills and had difficulty for a number of years luckily now he is moving forward with his life but that's not unusual that isn't an unusual story with young men and women coming out of that and that's something that the armed forces and as a society we need to look at to make sure that we are supporting these young people to come out it's my belief that we support our veterans as one of the factors that can judge us as a society earlier I mentioned my distant relative Stephen Gifford and he was lucky enough to be pensioned off and travelled before settling in Paisley but this is not the norm as I've already mentioned financial problems are always an issue when it comes to service personnel and they find it very difficult to find that support they do not all join the legion many of them do not walk into my office and discuss their issues with me and we need to find a way that we can actually find these older men, young women, older women and find a way that we can work with them to ensure that we can support them because they have yes we will do Christine Grahame I'll speak to you but I'm really speaking of course to Mr Adam is it not the case Mr Adam that the MOD could actually do more to integrate that transition period into the community than they're doing at the moment where everybody's got the good wishes I do feel there's a role for the MOD to ensure that that period of transition is smooth yes there definitely is and to be fair to the MOD they are actually trying to work on packages at the moment but it's still not enough we still have these young men and women who are having that difficulty and we cannot ensure that these people can actually be part of life and just pay their bills and get on with it then how are we going to actually say that we are supporting these people these young or older service personnel so I would close by saying we have to ensure that when we're dealing these people have actually defended their country they've given the ultimate sacrifice and defend being out and gone to places where governments have told them to go that we need to make sure when they come back that we look after them because to do so is how we are judged as a society and shows that we actually do care many thanks before I call Rob Gibson I could invite members who have participated in the debate to come back to the chamber for closing speeches which will take place after Rob Gibson Mr Gibson I'm delighted to be contributing to this debate on veterans and as the motion from the Government says recognises the challenges facing veterans transition to civilian life but believe that their training skills and sense of duty and discipline mean that employers and companies benefit greatly from employing veterans and it's the report of the veterans commissioner in terms of employability support models that I want to concentrate on just now because there are two sides to look at the way of the personnel about to be made redundant or returning to civvy street and also the people who want to provide services for them that I want to concentrate on so employability support models include the approaches which the commissioner has suggested should be included in a personal development plan and they need to get the information about the kinds of courses that are suited to their skills and I understand basically that careers transition partnership and ELCAS which sets the actual levels of the credit schemes and the costs of learning in nationally accredited schemes for veterans to take part in is something which has to be geared up to Scottish conditions and that's what the recommendation 12 says in this report that the Scottish Government's agencies, Scottish local authorities should work with the UK Government to ensure that new personal development plan and related course models are relevant to those settling in Scotland I have a situation where I have a gentleman called Mike Ellis who is able to provide the kinds of courses in the north of Scotland which help people with outdoor skills he runs a one-man operation called Helmsteil Charcoal and Copis and it offers a woodsman course to level 3 and since this involves 5 days practical training that requires residential work which makes for another disadvantage for providing that course in the north of Scotland at Helmsteil which is quite far along the far north railway line from Inverness or up the A9 just before you reach Caithness but he has been offering these courses to individuals and doing so perhaps because it recognises the potential for trainees to enjoy the skills of outdoor pursuits on the discipline and confidence in practical work that woodsmanship entails using hand tools in woodland settings can be very therapeutic and the potential in the north of Scotland to provide this is a good example of a small business which is providing something for which there is a need but there are difficulties in so doing he is the only person in the UK who has this course to level 3 but the way in which the careers transition partnership look at this they tend to aim at very large providers they don't necessarily aim at people who are geared up to providing fairly small courses which of course could expand but as Mr Ellis says when he talks to the careers transition people are feeling that he's told to show that there's a demand well the point is he can supply but they've got to show what is possible to veterans to come and take advantage of courses like that now his work is featured on BBC Scotland's Landlord and on BBC's country file programmes because woodsmanship is something which is a great skill for many outdoor jobs that are very fitted for veterans to undertake and indeed across much of rural Scotland there's a need with people with their skills, dedication and discipline and I think that the development people do recognise this the one awards organisation which does accreditation and matches up English awards and Scottish awards have said many years military personnel under their occupational resettlement or rehabilitation scheme returning to duties have been offered this course to develop their skills and experience to equipment to start their own woodsmen and coppice businesses in other places so we should try and encourage the potential for more of these kinds of skills to be built up for people to enjoy and that Mr Ellis has been invited indeed to go to South Lanarkshire Council and offer his courses in that location for veterans who've become clear so I'd like to put a plea in that when we're looking at the way in which the Scottish Government operates and that co-ordinates this that we recognise that in rural parts of Scotland there are potential courses and people out there who could be offering these that certainly want to be a part of this when it says in the findings of the report by the commissioner if service leavers settling in Scotland are not to be disadvantaged military skills must be mapped to Scottish qualifications well I've dealt with that part but there's a need to take a comprehensive look at the policies and support available in Scotland for opening access to further and higher education for service leavers of all ages well I think Mr Ellis is a good example of somebody who's providing this to level 3 which is the best you can get but with the disadvantages of his location we've got to get over that and make sure that the support services in the personal development packages are given a chance to get to where these courses are thank you Presiding Officer I hope that's something that the Government can take on board and that we can unite behind many thanks that then brings us to the closing speeches and I call on Jackson Carlaw seven minutes please Mr Carlaw thank you Presiding Officer this has actually been a hugely enjoyable afternoon it's been a very constructive debate and I've very much enjoyed listening to the contributions from all sides of the chamber can I begin just with assistance to the clerks who have been that somewhat discombobulated I think by my assertion that I might have been a teenager when the film The Shawshank Redemption came out and while it's certainly true that for most conservatives of a certain age life did begin in 1979 and I would only have been 15 at the time it isn't altogether fair to suggest that I was a teenager at that point I would also like to thank Mr Maxwell and Mr Crawford for their reference to my flying around in biplanes and Sopworth camels were that true I would also want to thank Mr Maxwell for all the many years of experience he brought to servicing those aircraft at the time I was very amused by George Adam's contribution my first introduction I have to do this time as a teenager to the military triumphs of Paisley was a fictional account by George MacDonald Fraser of the life of Harry Flashman who I remember reading with some entertainment the first wench I think as he put it that he picked up was on the grass just outside Paisley Abbey now were it not a fictional account I might well have believed that the very rakish antecedents of Mr Adam actually found their favour in that exchange but maybe it was allegoric moving aside to the substance of the debate I would like to touch on the Labour amendment because I had actually said nothing about that in my introduction remarks expecting to hear a little bit more about the development of the narrative supporting it and I realise in fact Mr Macintosh is going to deal with this on the summation that's coming up I would like to say that I think there are a number of colleagues around the chamber who are actually slightly uncomfortable at the idea that we might end up in a division later on this evening and I'm very sympathetic to the sentiments underpinning it I actually think that it is slightly more complicated I think there is a UK Government dynamic in this as well as a Scottish Government one I think there are conversations taking place and I too would very much appreciate not being put in that position because I don't think it actually advances matters but I leave that for Mr Macintosh to develop in his closing argument there have been a lot of very considerably speeches I enjoyed I'd like to return to Mike McKenzie because normally Mr McKenzie is a bastion of what I call partisan invective towards me in this side of the chamber and yet today I thought he made a hugely positive and compelling contribution on employment and in previous debates which have talked about rehabilitation of offenders into society I have touched upon the fact that having been in the Scottish Motor Trade for 25 years I did think there was an obligation on employers if one believed in the principle of rehabilitation of offenders to create opportunities for offenders in businesses that offered careers that were appropriate and it occurs to me that perhaps we should have a more proactive approach to employers to seek to get a body who would look to participate in that development that Mr Gibson talked about of personal development plans that are appropriate and I think of the Scottish Motor Trade Association organisations like that presided over by Sir Arnold Clark that have a representation across the whole of Scotland in communities with a very variable mix of employment opportunities and I'm being I suppose slightly narrow here in the regionally male areas of employment but there is within those organisations and I always felt within the retail motor industry which I was involved in again quite a structured camaraderie discipline and a structured approach to the development of a multiplicity of different types of careers and I just wonder whether we might not just within the retail motor industry but beyond that be trying to look to a broader list of employers because I think many would prove willing if they thought that they were contributing in some way to the armed forces community re-entering society to participate within such a structure there were some very strong contributions on the whole subject of mental health and I think it's important and Joe McAlpine talked at length about post-traumatic stress which is absolutely key but of course the mental health issue is typical of the one that more generally prevails in society very often it is simply depression depression which has grown out of the difficulties and challenges faced by those re-entering society not getting access to employment opportunities not getting access to housing and although we have spoken very constructively this afternoon and positively and I think rightly so I suppose a little acid in the drink might also reflect that too many of our ex-servicemen do end up in custodial sentences too many of them are those who have been registered as homeless all of them are those who suffer complicated issues arising from access to alcohol again arising from the kind of depression and general mental health issues that prevail and I think there's a huge responsibility on us to accept that there needs to be investment and services which to some extent are slightly more specialised than those that those generally suffering from those conditions might have I did touch on the subject of charitable status because I think this is something we need to recognise and I talked earlier about the whole difference in the way the public perception of the armed forces has grown it has also led to a tremendous rise in charitable giving to armed forces charities many have been set up for the very best of reasons but perhaps will not prove to be sustainable going forward because the reality is as we move beyond this period when so much has been open and demonstrably apparent to us in terms of parades the armed services and the sustainability with the armed forces day that we have in the summer that brings that home some of these charities are not going to be able to sustain themselves and it will be a difficult and uncomfortable conversation but it is one that I think as politicians we may have to be prepared to participate and lead in that a number of these charities will probably have to amalgamate and merge and be carefully targeted going forward if we are not to find that some of them get into all sorts of difficulties which become quite counterproductive and very unfortunate and I think that is a huge responsibility going forward as charitable giving may start to decline the huge amount of money that that has created may lessen slightly and again the responsibility for governments in the future because the responsibility towards veterans will extend into the future will be one that I think we will have to be prepared to meet and a challenge to which we will have to rise but it's been a very constructive debate this afternoon the main motion and I thank all members who participated Many thanks and I now call on Ken Macintosh, Mr Macintosh nine minutes please Thank you, Presiding Officer and can I begin as many have by welcoming this report on transition in Scotland from the Scottish Veterans Commissioner it's clear that there's nothing in this report which any of the parties across the chamber would take exception to and there are a number of very sensible recommendations which we look forward to the government but more clear is the warmth and the respect expressed by every single member this afternoon towards our armed forces our early service leavers and our veterans and I think it's also true that newly every single member told a personal story either about themselves, their family or someone they knew and that reveals I think the emotional connection and the empathy that we have for those veterans Now there are issues flagged up in the report in which need to be addressed employment and health and this was reflected in a number of the contributions I think Christine Grahame talked about the need to tackle the problems created by alcohol dependency Jane Baxter pointed to the need for more as well as better housing and Grahame Day highlighted the work of Glasgow Caledonian University in improving veterans education and qualifications but what also struck me were the many examples quoted of good practice particularly from our local authorities and from the third sector in Scotland in this report The support offered our veterans from the city of Glasgow for example was singled out for praise and I'm sure not as a surprise to many of my colleagues representing that city I had the good fortune to visit Bellrock Close in Cranhill recently a fantastic new housing support service in the east end of Glasgow run in partnership with others by the Scottish Veterans Housing Association on behalf of Scottish veterans residences Bellrock Close provides exceptionally high quality accommodation but it is also very much geared at providing the transitional support which is the subject of this afternoon's debate Every veteran has a dedicated key worker and a support team to help them to access additional services in the areas such as health welfare benefits, further education volunteering and job searches up to the point where a future home in the community is secured and the veteran is ready to move on It was clear to me from speaking to residents that they hugely valued and benefited from this service I was also pleased to see an acknowledgement in the commissioner's report of the role and the importance of having high profile public champions providing political leadership In my own local authority of East Renfisher I know council leader Jim Fletcher is particularly active in promoting the interests of ex-service personnel The council has worked with other authorities Renfisher and Inverclyde in particular all jointly training their customer service advisors to ask the right questions to identify veterans and then to signpost them to specialist advice services for housing employment benefits or medical treatment I should also add that in that task they are ably supported in my own constituency by the local citizens advice Scotland Bureau I think that this is a point that Bruce Crawford brought up with the ASAP service provided in his constituency In our area we have a specialist veteran's advisor in the cab We pay attention to a number of very welcome initiatives I think that Dave Stewart talked about the armed forces parliamentary scheme although I'm not sure whether he's trying to encourage us or put us off with the idea of a flight in a tornado I would thank Stuart Maxwell again for highlighting AFLA armed forces legal advice the discounted legal service started by Alan Steele which I think is an excellent amount of work and is about to be expanded into America I'm understanding all members for their contribution and today's report from the veterans commissioner along with this afternoon's debate provides many examples of good practice and encouragement as well as an analysis of what's needed to do if we're to properly support former members of armed forces as they move into civilian life no matter how consensual our debate and how much agreement there is across this chamber however I think that it would be wrong to have a debate on veterans in Scotland in the Parliament today without even a reference to the campaign launched by Poppy Scotland and the Royal British Legion in January this year and I think that most members will have received at least one if not more letters from veterans affected and just to recap or outline the essence of this campaign veterans who were injured in service on or before 5 April 2005 received a war disablement pension those with a similar injury but who were injured on or after 6 April 2005 received compensation under the armed forces compensation scheme there is widespread variation across Scotland as to whether those injured veterans are able to keep all their compensation or whether they are expected to use those payments to pay for care having conducted a comprehensive survey Poppy Scotland believed that only a third of war disablement pensions are fully disregarded a figure that the minister quoted a few minutes ago there is also variation between the treatment of war pensioners injured before 2005 and in receipt of the armed forces compensation put bluntly an injury from the Falklands conflict seems to count for less than one suffered in Afghanistan the Scottish Government's own guidance for residential care suggests that Government take all but the first £10 a week of a veterans compensation this does not compare very well to the situation in the rest of the UK where at least the armed forces compensation scheme those payments are disregarded and it is also worth highlighting that by comparison local authorities are required to exempt compensation that has been awarded to civilians who have been injured in the workplace the British Legion of Poppy Scotland can see no reason and I have to say I fully agree with them for the disparity in the way that injured veterans and war pensioners are currently treated within the social care system and I'm sure there's no one in this chamber either who believes it's fair that disabled war pensioners should be treated differently to other injured veterans and I'm not so sure there's no one here who thinks it's acceptable that war pensioners should be treated less favourably than civilians who have been injured in the workplace this latter point in particular demonstrates that the current situation is in breach of the armed forces covenant which states that the service personnel veterans and their families should not be left disadvantaged as a result of military service I would point out on an encouraging note that since the launch of the insult to injury campaign many local authorities have looked or are looking at their own charging practices and at their own discretionary powers and I'm delighted to report that in my own local authority they have agreed to abolish any charges that they might levy on veterans living in East Renfisher it's so clearly the right thing to do Poppy Scotland are calling on the Scottish Government not just to harmonise the way that local authorities treat the two military compensation schemes but to revise existing charging guidelines so that all local authorities are required to fully disregard war disablement pensions for means tests for social care Now I understand the minister's point and also from Jackson Carlaw's contribution I can just say by the way I thoroughly enjoyed Jackson Carlaw's opening and concluding contributions I'm sure that all members recognise that military compensation is awarded as recompense for the pain, suffering and loss experienced by injured service personnel and veterans and although I'm slightly disappointed that we can't all unite around our amendment I would ask the minister if he can in his summing up to tell Parliament what progress he intends to make on this issue and perhaps when he'll report back to Parliament and in the light of his remarks I certainly hope that my Labour colleagues and I would be able to ask the Presiding Officer if we could withdraw our amendment I certainly wouldn't wish to take I certainly wouldn't wish to take any of that discussion away from the highly consensual debate that we have had and the practical steps that we can take Earlier in the debate my colleague Mary Fee talked about the importance of not discussing veterans as if they were a game of political football Now I'm going to take the brave step of disagreeing with Mary and the minister may know what's coming next Every year to celebrate Armed Forces Day which falls on the 27th of June the Parliamentary team organises a game of football against RAF veterans Yes, it's the RAF again Mr Grofford Last year Wraith Rovers were generous enough to accommodate us as part of their celebration or commemorations if the centenary of the great war Unfortunately the RAF were a little bit too strong last year and we needed to call up our own reserves for this year's fixture as a reliable right back or was it right midfield I would ask the minister if he's willing to pencil at least in the fixture we're looking at the morning of June 12 and any other members in the chamber who fancied the chance to display their talents in a good cause please let me know Mr MacArthur in particular The commissioner concluded his report by calling us to look at veterans as an asset to our communities rather than simply as people in need a point made by the minister by Dave Stewart, by Liam McArthur and many others That's a good message we can unite around and we are pleased to support the first report of the Scottish Veterans Commissioner Thank you very much and I now call upon Keith Brown to respond to the debate Cabinet Secretary we have a little bit of time in hand so I can give you until 5 o'clock Thank you I'm grateful to members for, as others have said what's been a very constructive and thought-provoking debate today Certainly given some of the suggestions giving me further food for thought and of course they will be of great interest to the Scottish Veterans Commissioner Eric Fraser seeking to take forward his work The commissioner's future work will significantly shape what we take forward either as a Scottish Government or strategic partners and members will be aware that in previous debates on support for the armed forces community in Scotland I have rehearsed what had been delivered, what has been trained what will be examined, what will be explored and developed Members will also know that I've come to the chamber and reported on progress and pointed to a contribution to the UK Government annual report on the armed forces covenant In that regard it's fair to say that our input into that document has been widely acknowledged and welcomed in the military, veterans organisations and the wider armed forces in veterans community and I should say this and I suppose I would say this anyway but there's a great deal of regard around the rest of the UK for what we've managed to achieve in terms of veterans in Scotland Members have been here longer than I have and I remember there's a very critical report I think in 2007 from the health committee, the House of Commons which was not at all complimentary of the services which our veterans received and I think we've come a long way since that time We've reported back on what we've done we've always done that against the backdrop of our 2012 policy document Our Commitments which I had the pleasure to launch at Edinburgh Castle on 5 September 2012 Members may recall that document set out in some detail what initiatives and programmes were being pursued across the Scottish Government within our devolved responsibilities Now under the day-to-day control of the Director General for Education and Justice Leslie Evans in her capacity as Armed Forces Advocate Our Commitments was always intended to be a baseline document around which the Scottish Government pushed new initiatives and work streams in support of the Armed Forces veterans and their families In that work she has been able and enthusiastically supported by external organisations such as Poppy Scotland, Legion Scotland and of course Veteran Scotland with whom I meet on a quarterly basis Of course our work is also heavily influenced by the Scottish Veterans Commissioner For that reason it's my view that it's time to refresh our commitments to give it more impetus and focus to address the range of new ideas actions and challenges identified through the work of the Commissioner and our ongoing discussions with our partners Some of the suggestions are made today by Rob Gibson and others One very good suggestion I heard when over at Tartan week in Canada recently where they said that there's an app that you can have in New Zealand and Australia which if you've been in the Armed Forces tells you where all the veterans are subscribed to it around the Commonwealth so if you've served alongside the Australian Army and you happen to be in Australia you can find your colleagues from that time an excellent idea so we will look at these new ideas as well as some of the ones that have been mentioned today I've asked the officials to embark on a programme of work to update our commitments with a view to publication in early 2016 and in parallel with that I'll continue to highlight, promote and stress that the vast majority of men and women who serve in our Armed Forces with distinction and pride and they bring that full range of skills that they've honed during their service into civilian life and are valuable assets to our communities I think, like Jackson Carlaw, I thought that the way that Mike Mackenzie spoke about the qualities of the veterans that he'd worked with and also identified that very important thing of self-discipline which I think the Armed Forces are very good at instilling in people and I think it's probably the most important thing in the ethos of the Armed Forces they, as I say, veterans are employees they're employers, they're entrepreneurs and volunteers on a previous visit to Canada I also saw a very strong programme of veterans being encouraged to move into franchising as entrepreneurs and that appeals to veterans in many ways the idea of being in charge of yourself but having a structure with which to work so I'll look to our strategic partners to help us with this task I know that the military, the veterans service, charitable sector and the families federations are so helpful before and now fully endorsed that stance and I think the person I think it may have been Graham Day that mentioned families in particular, I think that's really now coming really into focus, people are realising that much of the issues that we deal with in terms of veterans really should apply in many cases to consideration for their families people have talked about veterans actually in Graham Day's constituency in four five commando to do three in four tours in Afghanistan what they don't often appreciate is that will be preceded each time by a six or seven month training period when the service personnel are away from their families and many of them will find those training periods more stressful actually than Afghanistan because they're forced to be removed from their families so we have to concentrate on the effect it has on families and just to come back to some of the points which are raised Mary Fee quite rightly raised the issues of transition I think she asked whether we've examined those up to now, we do generally and we did provide a response to the report produced by Lord Ashcroft which tackled this much of the responsibility lies with the armed forces we'd like to have perhaps a more constructive relationship with the MOD whether it's there Minister can I stop you slightly for a moment I'm sorry about that could we have the back door closed over thank you I can hear noise minister so we have looked at that and we'll continue to look at that to think it was quite a useful report that was produced by Lord Ashcroft a number of areas as I've said before I do think the armed forces should very much look at starting from day one of somebody's service career to look at housing what are they going to do when they come out of housing there are some but not enough and not substantial enough schemes for example to give support for those who want to buy a house when there are armed forces those schemes are not nearly widely well enough known in terms of education are going to future job I think a great deal could be done to structure career in the armed forces to make sure you've got the best chance when you when you come out so we've made these points in the past I was going to mention Jackson Carlaw's reference to being a teenager and watching Shawshank Redemption but perhaps it's due to the fact that I am of a similar age that I couldn't quite remember how long ago it was at Shawshank Redemption came out I know it's actually a favourite of my son and I know exactly the scene that he's talking about it was a scene when the guy that had been in prison for nearly all of his life came out and actually ended up forcing himself back into the prison because that's where he felt more comfortable and eventually took his own life because of that institution which he'd been so used to now that is not that I know Jackson Carlaw was not trying to portray veterans in any way is similar to people that are in prison but it is true to say that structure having a structure round about you presents one of the biggest challenges for our veterans I think it was Stuart Maxwell that mentioned the fire service and he was right to say I went to the fire service and the person that was in charge of what his rank was within the fire service said that he had been told early on in his career always to try and ensure there was a smattering of veterans in his force because he reckoned they provided such a stable and productive and reliable element to the fire service calm under pressure that was essential to a good fire service I mentioned a talk week we also went to New York to see the veterans affairs, veterans benefits agency in New York whilst we were there and what struck me which we don't do in this country was when they provided support after somebody left certainly, yep Stuart Maxwell It just strikes me when you're talking about the fire service and the good fit between the fire service and ex-forces personnel and I certainly share that view and mentioned it in my own contribution I just wonder if the minister was aware of any effective groups that operate so that effectively you can take very clear obvious routes into employment like the fire service, another organisation that are very suited to some members of the forces are they linking into the MOD and the forces before those personnel leave because I think one of the problems that other members have mentioned is this disconnect between the point with the leave and then trying to get them into employment and I would think that connections between organisations like the fire service and the military while they're still in the military or giving that smooth transition that we've all been talking about Cabinet Secretary Perhaps the way that I've seen the most actively produced strategies in area that Jackson Carlaw identified which is in the motor trade first bus for example have a very good scheme to make sure mainly mechanics but one of the events that we found out at the event the cross-party reception was that there's a real shortage in the country of HGV drivers in the military so just to effect that straight forward transition also in relation in fact to telecommunications and technicians telecommunications and IT skilled individuals you get many of them coming into their forces and we have a real skill issue with getting as many of those people into the workforce so we are working on that at the point that Stuart Maxwell made and it's done better in some of the countries the UK government is trying to address through the corporate covenant and we are doing one or two things here I would just say coming back to Hanzala Malik's point we don't have the intention of expanding the concessionary travel scheme in the way that he suggests that would cost tens of millions of pounds it's a very serious proposition I understand he meant it in good faith but that's not our proposal at this time the point that Christine Grahame made we have looked at this already I think we need some more detail perhaps on her about personal homes in the actual scheme and how we can make that work better for veterans there's many other members that made some tremendous contributions and apologies if I can't mention them all but just to estimate if I can underline before we finish that the actual reality in this country is that veterans are invaluable assets employers to the community in Scotland I think we had the flavour from the debate that most members, all members I think share that view although they did not want to gloss over quite rightly some of the challenges that veterans face and we should continue to provide support there but I would just ask that those members of the Parliament who have shared that view about the benefits of veterans to society do try to undertake on a personal level to communicate that whenever they can because that should really be the story it's a key plank of the commissioners report that we've discussed today and I hope that it's very much the beginning of that process of trying to put the message out there especially even for our veterans themselves I appreciate some of the skills and some of the training that they've had and its relevance to civilian life and sometimes I think again Graham Day mentioned a point about self-esteem a very important point I think there's a great deal we can do Jackson Carlaw was right as well to say that we do have the benefits now where there's very popular support for veterans and people now are able to distinguish the service of veterans from the places they've been sent to by politicians which is very important so I think we have to continue to work on that and from my part I would give my assurance that the Scottish Government will continue to strive to do everything that we can to support those that have served our country so well so that's not just those that need our help in terms of employment in terms of health in terms of education but it's those that don't need our help necessarily but they need our support we should be the advocates for our veterans when they come back into society as real assets to companies around the country the only point of today's debate is to highlight the extent to which they continue to do that they've transitioned from civilian life and produced tremendous work in the various fields in which they go into once they've come out of civilian life we have to make sure we help those that find it a challenge but we should also make sure that we give credit to those that come out of the armed forces and play a productive role in our society thank you very much many thanks cabinet secretary and veterans to Scotland before we move to decision time can I call on Mary Fee to speak please thank you I'm grateful to be given this opportunity I think we've had a very good debate this afternoon very consensual and very positive and falling on from the very constructive comments made by the cabinet secretary to work with members across the chamber to resolve the issues around social care I would seek leave of the chamber to withdraw my amendment the member is seeking leave to withdraw her amendment does any member object since no member objects the amendment is therefore withdrawn and we will now move to decision time there will be one question to be put as a result of today's business and the question is motion 13045 in the name of Keith Brown on making the most of the contribution of veterans to Scotland agreed to 2 are we all agreed the motion is therefore agreed to and that concludes decision time and I now close this meeting of parliament