 Welcome to the unlicensed podcast. We've got Caleb who is me. We got Tysos over here as always say hi Tysos. Hi, and we're back for 2024 on this gloomy dark January day. So this week we're super excited. We've got Daniel White and Veronica Perrin from Atherol or Athrall or whatever. We can discuss that here shortly. But we're gonna talk about VoIP and it's something that I don't have a lot of experience with. You know, I'm familiar with what VoIP is, but you know, there's a lot of the technical side. There's regulatory stuff and how you really integrate that into a Wisp business is kind of a, you know, a new kind of topic for me. So we're going to talk to Daniel and Veronica. They've been doing this for quite a while. A lot of you guys know Daniel. So before we hop into that conversation, though, real quick, Tysos, if you'll give the good people out there, they're called to action. Absolutely. Don't forget to like, listen, and subscribe to our channel right here on YouTube or anywhere you download your audio podcast like Apple, Google, or Spotify. Okay, that's a music play set. All right, so let's get to it, guys. So like I said, we've got Daniel White and Veronica Perrin from Atherol. So guys, great. We super appreciate you guys joining us here today. Give us a notification here. For sure, for sure. So a lot of y'all know Daniel. I mean, Daniel's been around forever. A lot of y'all know him. He's been in Wisp. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Right? I can see my little wings are kicking in here. But if you two just give a kind of a quick history, you know, with relation to, you know, not just how you got into VoIP, where you decided to run with this business, but I guess about your Wisp background as a whole and, you know, let folks know where you're coming from. Yeah, yeah, sure. So I got into the Wisp base in 2006 as an installer for a local Wisp in Colorado called Mesa Networks. Later got acquired by JAB and McKee-Wryze-Brabia. When the Wisp I worked for got sold by then there was climbing towers that, you know, can I do it all the fun RF stuff. I got offered to kind of go to an integration company for a bit that kind of spurred into me working with some equipment manufacturers. I was a sales engineer for BridgeWave Communications. Then became the director of North America for SAF Technica. So that's how a lot of people kind of got to know me, millimeter wave, license, backhaul. After that, did a stint at CTI Connect as director of sales. And kind of during that period is when I discovered the need for Voight, let's say. You know, the Wisp I worked for back in, you know, 2006, 2007, we offered a Voight product, but it was super basic and it didn't work well. You know, it was kind of the bleeding edge of the technology back then. Then we kind of came around to CAF2. I was working at CTI Connect, kind of do my sales management type job, ask an ISPs like, are you going for this or not? You know, and what's stopping you? What are the barriers to you getting CAF2 funds or protecting your service area? And Voight was the number one answer, cross the board. Either they didn't know how to do it and they didn't want to learn how to do it or they refrigerated the regulation or they tried working with companies before that didn't treat them well because they're a Wisp and, you know, they thought that they're, you know, substandard ISP Voight can't work on wireless equipment, etc. So yeah, when I left CTI Connect, I started this company and it's been five exciting years since. Well, you brought it up. Oh, jeesh. Not as long as you. Thank you. I started off working for a small ISP in Oregon called Budget Intermitt. And then from there, I worked with this for a few years and then Wisp and then Trango. I feel like I'm missing something, Trango. And then I did my own consulting for about a year or so. And then I had a tiny, tiny little time where I didn't work in the in the Wisp industry. I worked for an MSP out of Washington. And then Daniel picks me up a year into Atherol. And I've been with them ever since. Yeah. So yeah, I love our family, our community we have here. So yeah, the history goes way back. I mean, I totally forgot. I mean, I've known Daniel for quite some time now. And I totally forgot that you came from Bridgeway. I mean, jeez, it's like. Yeah. A couple of times I forget too. Yeah, that was 2010 when I saw Bridgeway. So yeah, it's been a minute. And you mentioned, you know, Wisp, like I've served on the board of directors for Wisp. Yeah. Three time sale, off and on, off and on type things. So I just finished up a three year term and some change. So yeah, I've been around for a while. Kind of funny to think that when I got in the industry 2006, like I was looking around a lot of guys been doing it for like five years, right? Like the Matt Larson's out there, like, oh, man, these are the old school guys, you know, the the goats, right? And now people like to me like, Oh, man, you've been doing this a decade more than me. Like, God, times. Where's where's your white hair? How come you don't have any grays, dude? Look at him selling it on the back here. For four years. That's funny. Yeah, I am. That's like one of the greatest uses of my LinkedIn profile. Like I keep it up to date just so I can track the history. It starts getting a little fuzzy in the back. You're like, wait, when does it ever have to fill anything out or something? So yeah. Well, very cool. So, you know, you've been doing this a while, you've seen a lot of change across the industry, obviously. So, you know, I remember way back in the day when people were like, we're gonna do VoIP over the network. Man, these radios, these APs and CPEs, can they sustain the packet count to handle VoIP? Like, that was a big thing for a period, you know? We're like, oh, yeah, let's really do 50,000 packets per second. It's amazing. So, we can do VoIP. So, the tech has definitely progressed significantly. So, it's feasible to do it in a lot of different places where, you know, you couldn't do it 10, 15 years ago. So, definitely not. You know, with you being kind of the subject matter expert here for sure. You know, kind of tell us about, you know, where VoIP, where does it fall into modern networks now or modern ISPs? I mean, we can look at the tech perspective, we can look at the business case, regulatory, like that part with CAF, like, I wasn't even aware of that. Me neither. I was just like, okay. I was just like, okay. So, yeah, so, yeah, I didn't need to kick off. Like, CAF II and RDOF, right? So, those two programs were funded by the Federal Universal Service Fund. So, if you look at any telephone bill, cell phone, whatever else, there's going to be a line item charge on there that says Federal Universal Service Fart or FUSF. It could just say USF. But that fund has been around, gee, I think since like the 30s or 40s. And the idea is that telephone subscribers subsidized telephone companies to build telephone service to people that otherwise wouldn't get served, right? So, we all know there's use cases where there's something to live in middle-nowhere. It's going to cost $30,000 to build fiber or whatever to them. There's no way a telephone company can make that profitable. So, FUSF steps in to reimburse, say that telephone company historically to do that. With CAF II, the FCC kind of said, well, hey, we have all this money over here and connecting people by telephone really isn't a problem anymore. You know, pretty much the entire United States has it. Yes, there's some high-cost areas, but internet's more important. So, we can give this money away to build internet. But because it came from this telephone kind of slush fund, let's say, there had to be a telephone aspect to it. So, to protect your service area, it was 25x3 and you had to be able to provide telephone service, which meant you had to be the carrier of record. Reselling someone else's boy product where you didn't do any of the regulatory work and you just got like a cut of the commissioner or something, that didn't count. You know, if your subscribers went and bought Vonage on their own or something, that doesn't count. You actually have to be the carrier of record. And so, obviously, for ISPs, that leads into VoIP. That's the easiest way to do it. No one was put copper lines in the ground anymore. And so, that meant a lot of ISPs had the capability of, if they met the 25x3, which a lot did and do, VoIP was the aspect that they were either missing to protect their area from overbuilding or to actually go after funds. And then after CAF2 was ARDOF, took from the same slush fund, let's say, now with all the newer stuff that Congress has passed, states are passing, stuff like BEAD, voice isn't necessarily required anymore because it's not coming from that universal service fund. But what we're finding more now is that expanding into super rural areas, people still want telephone service or the bigger use case or the bigger business case for it, it's actually business it. ISPs that do serve businesses tend to have a lot of uptake in the VoIP aspect because at the same time, VoIP has become more prevalent. A lot of the copper, the frontiers of the world, are actually discontinuing service. They're trying to get rid of their copper plant. And I've seen people come to us or through their ISPs that have phone bills that are a couple hundred a month and that are like 1200 a month because they're just trying to price people to get off the system. So yeah, that's kind of the why. I mean, how I got into it was just going around to some of the really big ISPs that everybody knows, they weren't going to even bother protecting their service area because VoIP was this big scary thing in the closet. And it really isn't anymore. When you mentioned packets per second stuff, I mean, that's funny. I haven't thought about that a long time. Radio is like, oh, we're focused on packets per second. Like, wow, this one has more. And that's kind of a big reflection on like, VoIP, is it as big of a deal anymore? An uncompressed kind of weight stream, about 100 kilobits. And back when you're selling one and a half make plans that 2006, that was the most common package we sold. And you've got an access point that 14 meg aggregate, every voice call taking up 100 kilobytes uploaded download. That was a lot of bandwidth. So really, one of the biggest things I think that's enabled a feral to really come into its own. Not only was that calf to but the bandwidth requirements that consumers have is done up so much that 100 kilobits stream is nothing now. Really, is it required any real traffic engineering anymore? For VoIP, where before, oh, it required a ton, you know, you really had to worry about us and everything else. So yeah, I remember I remember having to prioritize it, you know, over other traffic and stuff like that. And yeah, I mean, it's come a long way since setting up a Tricks box and we're setting up like some Vonage or packet eight ATAs on your network, you know. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's definitely a completely different beast now. And I think probably the number one thing people tell me is like, well, is it weak dying? Is it dead? And it's it's not. It's funny. I mean, I mean, there's just something it's not necessarily VoIP, but I think it's the legacy of having a home phone of some sort. I mean, I have Vonage at my house. And I've had it for since 2004, basically, when I got into this industry, that was one of the first things I tried to do. I tried to go into MDUs and had to do the triple play, right? So I had to have some sort of voice to offer some sort of video. And then, of course, internet on top of that. And I've had the same Vonage line since 2004 cost me like whatever 20 bucks a month. And it's just it's it's nice just having it there. And I know if an emergency happens, I pick up and down 911, they know exactly where to come, you know, you don't have to say where you're at. So there's there's some comfort to that that at least I don't get, you know, with a cell phone as the primary only, you know, system. So it's it's important, I think. Actually, residential weight, that's the number besides the hey, I just like having, you know, an analog, your POTS fly type thing, or I'm 80 years old, I've always had it, I'm gonna say to have it. The 901 aspect is probably where we see a lot of people do it. And it's for young families. I mean, did you guys ever see that, that TikTok that was going around where so was like, man, I wish there was a way that we can have this phone at home. And we never had to worry about the battery dying. And, you know, all, you know, all these things like, yeah, that's a phone line, right? Exactly. And one of those big aspects is like, you have a three year old kid, right? We were all kids, we've all had kids, right? You teach them about 911. Well, that's great. But now with everything being a cell phone, like, well, where is the cell phone, right? Oh, it's in Lamy's pocket. She fell over. And now you can't get it out. Something. Yeah. So we actually see young families, a lot of young families actually just for 911, which was something that I never expected getting into this. Well, my parents, my parents do it because their cell phone coverage is, you know, if you go to the front of the house on the porch, it works fine, but it's shaky in the back and in the back bedroom, you know, it doesn't really work. So they're older. And, you know, if they fall or something in the bedroom, they're in a bond. So they've always got their 1980s cordless phone back there that lasts like three weeks without charging it up and everything else. So, yeah, it makes a ton of sense from a residential perspective and you're out of the band and, you know, it's one of your final life ones. Yeah, it is. Yeah. You know, and that's, you know, kind of that so rural that there's no cell phone coverage. I was shocked, honestly, when I started this company that that was still really a thing. You know, a lot of cell phones, okay, they connect to Wi-Fi or you can get boosters or whatever else. But I would say that's probably the other kind of big residential play, right? Is people are so rural where wisps typically live, right? That there is still cell phone coverage. So they still want that landline at home. I'll be the first one to admit though, it's dire, right? I mean, the FCC says that's below and show that wastelines and residential declining. But that's really where we see I think our most successful customers or resellers or clients or ISPs that focus on businesses. Because that's really where there's still a lot of growth globally because there's still 30 year old PBXs. I mean, they're finally dying. So stuff needs to grow. Yes. And they can all die as far as I'm concerned. But I've never, oh, the last time I set up an analog PBX, I'm like, I'm going to blow my brains out and go work on a shrimp boat. You know, void management makes it so much easier. And especially if you're in a dynamic environment in the business where you've got things like phone cues, right? And automated attendance, like it's just so much easier to manage when you can go to some web portal somewhere and just do everything from that. It's just, you know, advancements for sure. No programming the buttons on the phone. Yeah. Yeah. Like the player profile or something. You're like, we're, we're living in the future. Yes. Yeah. You know, there's cool things too. Like, hey, you got a void system. You can literally pick the phone up off your desk, take it home with you, plug it in. And it should work. You know, like is it? I mean, yeah, we've, you know, there's always all sorts of apps, right? That, you know, you can have on your cell phone or your computer to do to act like you're at your void phone. But there's something nice about being able to pick up the phone and just move it and it works. You know, that, that we saw a lot during COVID, which was, I guess, a good time for us to be in this thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because people, people wanted to take their office phones home with them. It did not be hard wired to a PBX, right? So it works. I like accessible phones. Some people like the cell phones, but I like, I have a physical phone on my desk. I use that more than I use the app on my cell phone. I like, I like the soft phone aspect of it and being able to port that number to my cell phone and use it anywhere as well. And I mean, it's just, yeah, what you can do with it is pretty awesome. Well, and it really plays into, you know, the wisdom focus on business, you know, you always want to get more than just the internet service, right? The more services you can provide the stick here. And it's from a customer service perspective where most with, you know, really accelerate or excel at, you know, it's, it's good to have a phone partner that is easy for them to work with and the end user too. So like when I was at Doves during COVID, we had to change around our whole, you know, phone cues and stuff because everyone went to home. We had like, I don't know, three day heads up, right? So we were, we had a good Voight partner and they're like, you know, here's how you push the profiles remote, all the authentication and everything. And it worked beautifully. But yeah. And of course, of like a day, like our whole sales team and most of the office, everyone could work from home, but from their perspective, they're just picking up the phone and pounding and like, yeah, like a day to day thing. So it really plays into the customer service side, I think is really important rather than having to rely on, you know, some evil big telco or some fly by night thing. And, you know, with you guys especially, because you understand the West market and the, you know, the customers that you're working with, like, you know how they do business, you understand them. So it makes it easier for you to provide services or, you know, know how they're thinking, which is really important because if you just go with Joe Bob's MSP Voight service, you know, you never really know what you're getting. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of the reason why I started the company, right, is that they're of the wisps I talked to, right? A lot, the ones that had tried working with a partner like us, they're focused on MSPs, right? And the MSP Voight market is huge. If you look at the profiles of almost any white label Voight company, they almost always focus on MSPs because there's far more MSPs out there than ISPs. You know, when you think of the biggest ISPs in the nation, they all have their own Voight engineers, Voight departments and stuff. And just like whispered experiences, so many other places like we could forgot, right? And so I wasn't afraid of the technology. I knew it worked great, but a lot of these other MSP centric companies like, oh, it's like cable, it's not fiber, it's not going to work. And it's just not the case, right? It works great over wireless. And, you know, 15 years ago, it was a little bit more of a crapshoot, but now with the equipment we got today, oh, it's just butter. It's so simple. The equipment is better, the traffic shaping and queuing, QOE, like there's a lot of these things. Now, you mentioned one point here, let's loop back a little bit. So you mentioned being a carrier of record, right? So, you know, there's being that, which seems aborted, or like reselling services and stuff like that. Like, so I'm a wisp and I want to start offering phone service. Like, what are in general like the ways I can do it, like resell or if I'm a carrier of record or something, like, what does that mean from a, I guess, regulatory perspective and things like that? Like, what does that mean? Yeah, so there's really, if you're at ISP, there's really three ways you can kind of become a void provider. The first one would be to resell somebody else's service. So, there are companies that will say, offer a void, you know, a void to your customer. We'll give you a percentage of the profit. We build them, we handle the regulatory stuff. They're our customer, but we give you like a commission every month, right? That's the easiest way to do it, right? You don't, you don't pull to any of the baggage, but you also can't provide any of the support. You don't own the customer. All you've done is kind of like earn a sales commission. So, it's the easiest way to get into it, but it's also the most limiting as far as being able to provide customer support and whatnot. The second way in which is kind of where we fall is white label void. So, what white label void means is that you're the carrier, it's your customer, you set the pricing, you maintain that relationship. We do all the hard work on the back end. So, we run the servers, we provide you support, try to make it really simple for you to support your customer and to offer it as a service. The downside to it is the regulatory aspect. You do have to file some paperwork, depending on the state with your state. You're going to have to file some paperwork with the FCC. None of it is super complicated unless, I mean, California and New York being California and New York are probably the most complicated. But even though we've got actually a number of ISPs in California and New York that do it. So, there's a lot of really good consultants out there that will handle the regulatory aspect for you. And if you we can recommend, there's also easily the capability for you to do it yourself. Depending on the state, it's not that bad. The third way then is to just do it all yourself, which means you stand up the servers, you buy all the minutes, you're the expert, you do it all. And there's no one behind you to to back you up. When I started the company, I went for option two, primarily for two reasons. One, and you can qualify for all the CAF2, RDOF, like you become the carrier, so it makes the FCC happy. And the second reason, white label to me sounded really appealing is that most sites don't have the budget, the staff, the time, the desire to become a VoIP engineer. There's kind of one aspect of engineering VoIP where you can kind of get a feel for it within a year if you do a day in a day out, kind of understand it. But to really understand VoIP, there's like a whole other level where it takes years and years of just that's all you do. I don't even consider myself the technical expert in this company. There's always been a counterpart to me that's been the technical expert. And it took me probably a good three or four years of doing this day in and day out before like I really felt like I do it. So instead of hiring the VoIP engineer, number two works great. And we've actually had a lot of ISPs turn down their own systems just for that reason is that they don't want to maintain it. They just want to sell it, do the basic support they want to build for it, check the boxes with the FCC and focus on what they're good at, which is typically building networks, not necessarily some of the value ads that you can add on top of it. Okay. And that makes a lot of sense, right? There's only so much time of the day and you can only be an expert in so many things. And like any other business to business thing, it's really, we're a skills in and improving your operational efficiencies and everything like that. And having someone else to yell at when the phone doesn't work is kind of handy too, right? Yeah. Yeah, you ever got an inquiry phone call or something? No, they couldn't. The phone was broke. So no, that was always, in my MSP world and stuff like that, like the phone was always like the touchiest subject, right? So I mean, obviously, if their internet goes down, that's a bad thing. But like phones going down is just as bad, but it seems like it gets ramped up, you know, tenfold, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, the nice thing is that we do the, you know, the ISPs are the first line defense for us, right? So we don't actually speak to your end users. They don't do we exist. So we don't get necessarily sometimes those initial calls, right, of it's broken. But the nice thing about VoIP is that if it's set up correctly and it's managed on the back end really, really well, it doesn't really break that off. It just works as it should. Exactly. And I think if I think of anything that maybe separates us from some of the MSP type shops that do VoIP or white label MSP shops is that we've collectively the what I would consider like the the management team, the company, including Dustin Cortez was with us today on the call. We've all worked for Wisps. Like we've all been the guy that's been screamed at or had to think about doing a tower climb, you know, Christmas Eve and a blizzard. We've been there. We've done that. So one of the things a lot of people told me when I first started the company was that I was spending too much money on the infrastructure. Like, oh, you don't need to buy a new server. You could buy a 10 year old use server or, you know, you don't have to have your power design or your switch design this complicated. Like, you know, make it simpler. It's okay. And I've never wanted to be that guy. Like I've always engineered it as if I was still an ISP. And I wouldn't make sure I'm, you know, max full redundancy and everything we did. So fortunately, back on wood, outages are pretty rare, just pure outages. I'm not going to say that it never happened, but super, super rare. We don't want to be the cause of that call. And, you know, so that's why I even we have SLAs we provide with our service too, which it's probably a lot of white just white companies in general, don't put an SLA behind the service, which I've always thought is weird. Because it is sometimes just as critical as an internet connection, you know, like, I don't want to get that angry phone call neither do you. So yeah. So how does it, how does it work? Like, let's say, you know, the mechanics of setting up an account and, and, you know, white labeling a service. So I'm an ISP. I want to be the carrier record. Like you said, I mean, is I mean, the back end portal, I mean, do they have to contact you? They just pick a number? You know, I mean, how does all that work for the residential side? I know it's probably different for commercial a little bit. But I mean, how does that work in general? Well, so there's there's two cases, right? There's the onboarding phase, which, which Veronica is the master of. That's a big part of what she does here. And then there's the once you're onboarded kind of piece, right? So generally, the way that somebody comes comes to us as an initial phone call just says, hey, I want to offer a void. I always do those calls and, you know, kind of give them the guidance wherever they're looking for. But once they decided to kind of take the punch with us, the regulatory case kind of happens outside of us, right? Because we don't we don't do that piece. And I've always I've never wanted to offer that piece, because what a lot of companies do is just resell someone else, right? And, you know, there's there's plenty of the analogs in the Wisp space of where, you know, Kayla, but I mean, actually, thousands, you've done it too, right? But Titan, like, you resell somebody else's service, I just didn't want to do that. I didn't want to be in the middle. Maybe because I'm lazy, I don't know. So we usually point people to a couple different things that I usually happens kind of in tandem with onboarding. But the paperwork aspect, once again, it's not really that bad. So some ISPs just do it themselves. Did they come over to Veronica? Do you want to talk about onboarding? Onboarding? No. Okay. Onboarding is simple. I love it. And I feel like it can be as simple as they want it to be and go as quickly as they want it to be. We've done onboardings in two or three days, I feel like. That's like an expedited one. A normal one takes about two weeks. But then we've had some that take a little bit. And we understand that they're they're a Wisp, like they have other things to do. We get it. So once they get to me, that's where I send them aboard a list of things to your project, manage the entire process from start to finish. That includes branding, branded items for them, even like marketing items, flyers, branded portal, four hours of training with with our engineering team. And then a bunch of resources, how to contact us, how to troubleshoot afterwards, how to we have knowledge based articles that they can go over and and read. And then if they need help, how to reach us. And yeah, from there, we do quarterly follow ups with all of our clients to make sure that they're happy and growing. And yeah, feel like from yeah. So there's easy. Yeah, there's easy. We try to give you all the information up front. Yeah, they kind of get you comfortable with us and the system. But then we fully expect like the first to be some customer you're going to call us to help. Please, please help. What is what did she say I was supposed to click? Well, I don't remember. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't expect them to remember everything for sure. We're human. We get it. But once they're on board, setting up a residential customer typically takes five minutes. There is a if they don't have a phone number, there is a in one of our portals, they can just order a phone number, pick it for their city area code, whatever they want. But if they're going to bring in their own foreign phone number, it's called porting. I typically do that typically he's three to five business days. In that time, you need to provide a paper that the customer assigned and we provide a branded version of this. So you'll have the the wisps logo on it, whatever else, just saying that we can do this. The ISP turns it in with a copy of the customer's phone bill. Then we do the rest of the work to port the phone number in is a lot of work in the background. Porting is a mystical beast and yeah, we're very good at it. It used to be more difficult from what I remember because people wouldn't want you to leave so they try and keep your number. But now I think it's more of a they have to let it go, right? So it should be a little bit easier here. Yeah, there's a there's actually a good fact see on the FCC website about number portability that makes it very, very clear like, you know, they have to let you go. It doesn't matter if you owe money. It doesn't matter if you're still in contract, like they have to port your phone number. Providers can't hold on to it, which is great. So there's a lot of automation now, but porting is still very difficult. We have a whole department that just deals with number porting. Like there are dedicated people here that just do number porting because it's time consuming and it's it's a pain. So that's not another thing that if you haven't done it before, you're not familiar with it. You don't want to jump into learning it. That's why we do it. Plus we have multiple carriers. I mean, if they did it on their own, they might only have one. Yeah, so we always try to maximize portability. A lot of vendors, well, you know, so behind us, right, there's vendors that are offering the trunking. And if you could buy sip trunking from companies like Wipidivations, people may know and tell it right. Yeah, with dot com, tell them that. I mean, there's a whole bunch of that. A lot of companies like us that will only work with maybe one vendor, right? That's how you maximize your costs and everything else. But the problem is that you end up losing areas you can't port. So we actually work with four different vendors, which is is weird. That's another thing I've gotten kickback from over the years from people are like, you spend it too much money, you shouldn't be doing that. But we do it. Yeah, we want porting to be simple. So we will make sure we can do it. But then setting up the customer, yeah, it takes a couple minutes. So once you know what's going on with the phone number, I think it's like 10 clicks in our portal. And the customers configured are ready to go. And then you just need to take either a Voight phone or an ETA, which just converts a Voight an analog phone that the customer may already have and install it in the house that is typically as complicated as plugging in the power in an ethernet cable into a switch or the router you're using. Configuration wise, you have to put in one config line inside the ETA that points it to our provisioning server. And that's it. So once you get good at it, it's like you can have a residential customer up online in five minutes or less. Businesses, as you said, are commercial accounts. There's no defined timeline because it depends on how many phones and users and how complicated they want to get and whatever. But we're here either way. One of the things that actually calling most of our support tickets are on is you've got this really weird situation and we don't know how to replicate this really old configuration. How do we do this? So sometimes support is just about us getting creative to replicate things. But businesses can be their own can of worms from all those old PBXs and the way they used to do it. Language, different things to figure out how they want it to ring. Now, do you guys offer like virtualized PBXs through some portal or do you just handle the trunking and they pick it up from the local side? Yeah, so that's a great question because there's really two kind of mythologies to offering. So we do it in the, quote unquote, the cloud. But the other way is that you can do a bunch of PBXs. So I think 3CX might be one of the most popular. You can definitely do it with things like free PBX or asterisks. And there's a whole bunch of them like Tiles is best in Tricks box before. That was an old version of asterisks. Yeah. You know, and you then deploy a PBX, right, at each customer site. And then you just do sip trucking to each. It's one methodology. But the problem is that you've got to manage all those PBXs. And, you know, if you've got a hundred business customers, you've got a hundred PBXs. That could be a pain, right, to have to individually go and manage and deal with the firmware updates and whatever else. So we do a cloud approach. Now when I say cloud, it's more of a private cloud. We own all the servers. They're in our racks inside the data centers. So we're not like taking space off Amazon or something. And we make everything as within our switch. So we, as an opening, we use, can we call NetSapiens? They used to exhibit a lot at whisper shows, but they've kind of grown past, I guess, what a lot of wisps can afford. You know, to get into it now, you're spending probably about $100,000 on it. One node. Yeah, one node. So there's a substantial investment, which is kind of what we did. But the beauty of it is that you don't have to worry about the equipment on site anymore. You deploy phones to the site. There's no PBX. So we do all the trucking inside of our switch environment. There's a brand of portal that the customers get. And then the ISP gets as well with different permissions. So it makes it that the ISP doesn't have to play anything on their network. Doesn't have to worry about it. We even have some ISPs that come to us and as they're expanding, sometimes they're able to get the business phone service before they can provide the internet. So if you want to run it over a cable company stuff or, you know, something else, like it works, you know, the ISP aspect doesn't really matter until it troubleshoot. Yeah, like firewalls are unknown things that you can't control now. Yeah. Some of the ISPs out there that we've had interact with, not our customers, but like they sell VoIP to a company that's done on their service. Sometimes they've just got the most convoluted network designs and there's nothing we could do to fix it. But I think that also is the value of the ISP offering VoIP is that they have a lot of control from point to point. Literally, we've got ISPs that are peered with us at the rack where they're in the same data center or cross connected. So it's like being on net and it's a thing of beauty. We control everything end to end at that point and you can't get better than that for voice service. So I really think there's a really good case for ISPs to offer and how it can be superior to just putting over any buddies that are going to connection at that point. Yeah. How about the software side and the billing side of this stuff and more integration? Like you guys have your own just standalone portal and that's the way it works or do you integrate with let's say power code or other WISP management because we've done a couple of shows about that but never how other services tie into those management softwares. Yeah. So I think this is where Veronica's helped quite a bit with being with the company. She had a lot of billing background. The number one issue I think we've had is people come to us say, are you integrated with X, Y or Z? Right. And we asked, well, what do you mean by integration? And we kind of did this thing where we've talked to, this has actually been really good to talk to. And then we've talked to all the power code sonar, bill max, and a little bit of work. And the most integrated with us. Yeah. There's like a willingness on both sides to do it. Right. We've got a great API that they can use. But when it comes down to it, no one's really wanted to do it. And it really has a bit of push. So we haven't done it. Because when you think about telecom billing, right? The average bill or something would be typically it's like you've used a thousand minutes. So you owe us this much. You had 50 minutes of long distance and 10 minutes of international or whatever. Because we don't sell the service that way. We sell it as a limited local long distance. And we include Mexico and Canada. We make it simple. Yeah. Kiss. Kiss is big. Nobody really cares about the per minute bill. Yeah. So then it becomes, well, what are you actually billing for? And it's you bill per user. That's how we bill for it. There could be an integration. But it seems like it's simple enough for people to just add that aspect to the billing system. Now the aspect that is really important is taxation. And I know I mentioned before, you got to work with the states. You got to work with the feds. Federal USF has to get calculated per user. But then a lot of states charge sales tax for phones. So something maybe you don't deal with as an ISP on your internet, right? But you have to deal with it on your voice service. And sometimes a taxation can get a little complicated. But the good news is that all the billing platforms typically offered integration with a platform like Avalara for the taxation. So we found that all the standard type of billing systems out there do actually a pretty good job. The only thing that's missing is maybe that link of how to link an account and are they active in our system or not? Legically, yeah. It doesn't seem like it's been a big deal for even our largest ISPs that they've just been able to kind of reconcile that themselves. So someday we'll do it. It's just a matter of pressure, I guess. It seems like that's a great checkbox question, right? But when it comes out to it though, it's really pushed on any side for us to do it. It's there someday maybe. We'll do it. We're not against it. Okay. Yes, actually, one of the things I was going to ask about is the minutes, long distance internationally. A lot of stuff you don't even really think about anymore, right? So you're like, oh, my phone, I just call. Once you get out of North America, I guess it gets more complicated, but it seems like simplifying. It makes it a lot easier to deal with from a WIS perspective and a billing perspective too, right? Like having a consistent bill. Yeah, and it's happening across multiple different mechanisms, like even my cell phone, right? I'm with T-Mobile. Right? When I was with AT&T, whenever I travel and I travel a lot internationally, I'd have to get what they call the passport thing so I can get internet, mobile data in other countries and tell them where I'm going. Now with T-Mobile, I get pretty much data, unlimited data anywhere. Now it's slow and crappy, but at least I have some sort of connectivity without having to pay above and beyond that. I get unlimited SMS no matter where I am. So I can SMS in country, out of country. It's pretty cool how that's all changing. I mean, if we look at how even cell phones started, it used to get the X amount of minutes. VoIP was the same thing. I remember when they first said, now you have unlimited international to Canada and Mexico, right? That was the big thing. It's funny how just, yeah, internet and this technology has really opened up so many things and it's incredible what we can do and what it costs to do it now. Almost nothing. Yeah. Honestly, when I tell a lot of people too, especially for individuals, right, that want to talk to their friends and family in Japan or Greece or Turkey or China, we've gotten a lot of those types of requests. We can offer that international service and it's not a big deal, but honestly, especially internationally, a lot of people have like WhatsApp and all these other apps just make it three. That doesn't necessarily work for a business, but at the same time, in the business side, you've got Teams, you've got Zoom or GoToMeeting. I find a lot of those international calls kind of happen there rather than on the phone. So yeah, we don't really see a lot of demand outside of Canada and Mexico. So part of the reason why we just included it just makes it easy. Exactly. And that's why I used to like the soft phone aspect of it because again, I used to travel so I could call back home for free as long as I had Wi-Fi. I thought I was calling from my house where I wasn't so I could talk to people back home. And now, of course, like you said, things like WhatsApp and Skype and all these other things have changed that for everybody now. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, you're your WISP operator, you're getting VoIP curious. What are some of the biggest sort of misunderstandings, misconceptions or knowledge gaps that you run into when someone's really wanting to get into the VoIP service game? That it's hard. Yeah. That is actually kind of what I understand now. We make it easy. But you know, if you don't know, you don't know, right? You're like, I don't know. Do I want to be a phone company? And you're like, well, you're not really doing the phone company, right? Yeah. I mean, in some states, you do have to become a C-lock to offer VoIP. But in most states, you don't. And if you're one of those states where you need to become a C-lock to offer VoIP, if you're thinking about doing fiber, you're probably going to have to become a C-lock anyway. So, and usually becoming a C-lock, the last one to get you're in California, or I think New York, but definitely California. It's not that hard. Usually, in most states, you become a C-lock. It's pretty straightforward. And I think of the hard piece, it gets divided into regulatory technical. Yeah. So, people are super concerned about the technical aspect. But we do all that. I mean, outside of very basic network troubleshooting, which you have to do for your own internet connections, we're there for any of the VoIP questions. It doesn't matter how basic it is, we'll help you. That's just all part of the package with us. The regulatory aspect, though, once again, isn't that hard? I mean, if you want to do it yourself, you can. It's not like you have to have a law degree to do it. The most complicated form gets filed with the FCC once a year. That's called the 499. Yeah, 499A, the annual one. That's the most complicated form. And honestly, anyone could probably fill that out. I do think having a consultant do the paperwork is easier personally. As a business owner, I don't like to be responsible for regulatory filings and having to remember to do them and stuff like that, be it taxes, be it, you know, whatever, right? So I like having someone else that's responsible for it. And there's some really good companies out there that do it. So it doesn't have to be hard. I mean, it can be really easy. And that's our goal is just to make it easy. Other than that, I mean, probably demand it might be the only other question we sometimes get is, will our customers buy this? You know, is this something that we need to promote? Like quickly find out, yes. Yeah. I mean, almost any ISP that has actually started advertising it, put on their website, start talking about it, use the flyers that we give them. They almost immediately see up to a 20% tape rate in their ISP. And the cool thing about VoIP is that it's really high margin. Even factoring in hiring a regulatory person, you get 30 or 40 people of VoIP, and you're making good money. Like it's reoccurring revenue right on top of your internet service. And theoretically, you'll never hear from them on that. I mean, you're more likely to probably hear from them, especially residential on streaming video, than you will on VoIP. This just tends to be my experience. So those are kind of all great things about it. As long as you don't get stuck into some big contracts or something, we don't do contracts or term commitments, try to make things simple once again. There's definitely ways to dip your toes into it and grow and see what happens. But that's probably the major thing I could think of when I do calls and stuff is, will people buy it? Is the regulatory hard? Is the technical stuff hard? And none of it has to be hard. It can be really easy. It definitely seems like it's almost, yeah. Now that you mentioned it's definitely a no-brainer as far as making extra revenue. I mean, what's a residential home phone plan? VoIP plan costy days like 19, 20 bucks or something like that, 25 bucks. I mean, obviously it depends on what the Wisp wants to charge. But like you said, I mean, honestly, I never use my phone. I pay 24.99 a month and I never use it. Actually, when it rings, it pisses me off. So I silenced it. It literally is there for me for the safety aspect that if I have to do dial 911 or some convenience or something like that. So never really thought about when Wisp's D-days are fighting and they're selling 24, 30, $40 packages, like 50% of that could be increased margin just by selling a phone service that a lot of people need and never really, really use. And you won't know it's broke until you use it and most people use their cell phones, right? So that's a huge selling point. I never really thought about offering VoIP as a Wisp. Yeah, in 25, you know, 24.99 is actually what I usually tell Wisp's when they say, what do I sell it for? That's actually the price I usually give because that is kind of the market for VoIP. We do have some that charge up to 40 or 50 bucks for it because they're in like some very rural area and the telephone company charges an arm and a leg. They're like, well, the telephone company charges it, I could charge it too. I mean, business stuff, we don't have any different charges for business or residential, but so businesses, I mean, easily 30 bucks a line and that still adds up quick. I mean, and you know, that hopefully we'll never call you too. I mean, that could be a big part of it. Yeah, I mean, it seems like an easy 10 to 30% increase in margin right there. I mean, who wouldn't want that? You know, for a service they almost never have to worry about, you know? Yeah, it's definitely, the margin is a lot better than some other products that you cannot on top of your internet service. Good way of saying it, yes, exactly. Charge for email addresses, sir. Wait, we don't do that anymore? Yeah, because I was like, this is awful, but it's a super important consideration because everyone's like, well, I want to do triple play. I want to do like video, right? I'm going to make all this money off video without realizing, I mean, just ignoring the technical aspect of all that traffic on your network. I mean, you've got to worry about your content providers and like, even the big providers are always in spats, you know, Spectrum is mad at ABC or Disney or whatever else. So like, it seems the regulatory and the marketplace is a lot more stable and there's just a lot less pain factor than trying to do some of these ancillary services. Oh, yeah. And IPTV, I can, I could probably write a book, I feel like, about how complicated and painful it is. What a lot of people probably don't remember, I hope. Probably the first year we were in business, I told everybody like, hey, we're launching with VoIP, we know VoIP, et cetera. It's going to take us a little bit longer, but we're going to offer IPTV as well. And there's definitely been IPTV providers that have kind of come and gone from the whiff scene. And I didn't want to be in a position where I'm like, kind of in this gray area with some of them that have come and gone, where it's like, you don't really have the content rights there. And then one day, we can't do it anymore, right? So I spent a good year and a half, probably the first year and a half of this company, probably spending too much time working on IPTV. And at best, it's a loss leader. I mean, that's really where it comes into you. You offer that triple place, the loss leader for your voice and your internet service. And at the end of the day, I couldn't justify bringing the product to market just because of how painful it was to implement, how painful it was to get the content rights. I mean, that in of itself was a nightmare to do it correctly. So yeah, I mean, I've always been a big fan of things that do add revenue, like managed Wi-Fi. I'll tell every ISP, if you're not doing managed Wi-Fi, you're missing something. Like you should be doing it. But if it's another easy one, like plug a box into the router, yeah, there's some regulatory stuff, but that can be made easy. And then it could be, yeah, an extra 25 bucks a month just coming in because you have a little box connected. So that's part of the reason why I think the companies continue to grow and be successful is after the CAF2 and ARTOF, I guess maybe I had even a little concern like, well, without there being some big motivator by the FCC for which to sign up, will they? Will they continue to grow with it sign up? And yeah, it's consistent every month that we've got new ISPs coming in. And some of the ones that have been with us the longest, it's amazing how much they've grown with us. So it really can be a lucrative market for sure. Cool. Very cool. Very cool. So and I guess kind of wrapping up the void part of the conversation, kind of looking into the future as much as a fool's errand as that can be. Like, do you see any big shifts in the market or like governmental overstep, which they're always fond of? What's looking for? What's exciting? What's scary? Or does it seem like it should be relatively status quo for a while? Do you think so? And I can't think of anything. I'm looking forward to 2025 where there is a requirement that you offer 24 hours of battery backup with a voice service. It's kind of a stupid little regulatory thing that the telephone company's got the FCC to do. So you have to offer at the time of sale 24 hours of battery backup. But there's a requirement that your network have any battery backup or anything else, right? You have to offer it for the ATA in the phone and whatever. Typically, what people do is they just make up a really expensive price for something and say, you don't want this anyway. So, you know, here you go and initially here. That's why I tell people to do generally 12 hours is far more reasonable and it's, you know, a hundred bucks of battery backup. Okay, I get that. Otherwise, from a regulatory standpoint, there's nothing other prize in Amawarows that will really affect the VoIP aspect or especially for ISPs. A lot of the big stuff that was going to affect it is kind of already happened. So, stir shaken was a big disruption in the market. There is still some regulation coming around stir shaken down the pipe for analog circuits out of band stir shaken is what it's called. And if you're not familiar with stir shaken, it's basically a way to authenticate phone calls. So, when you receive a phone call, you know that the person calling you actually has the rights to use that telephone number. So, it's supposed to get rid of number spoofing. Yeah, Robo calling is supposed to impact the line. I think it has to some extent. You know, if on yourself and you see like a little checkmark next to a call, that means that the call has been authenticated, that it is that person adding in, you know, as far as like a features type set goes, you also see about cell phones where they tell you like it's potentially a Robo call or a stamp call or fraudulent. That was a big feature ad that we kind of did the same time with stir shaken. And we did that way before it was required. Yeah. Yeah. But regulatory, I don't really see anything from a technology standpoint. There's going to continue to be a melding of the communications into everything that you do. So, your voice service, your phone service, also being part of your teams, Microsoft teams experience. So, you've probably seen some of that out there potentially, things getting more integrated with your cell phone and just other aspects of stuff we're using to make the phone calls easier. I think that's going to continue that trend. But the technologies matured quite a bit. So, new features like new exciting things. Stuff doesn't seem to get announced every day. Like there always is with radios and other things I still follow and enjoy. Not as much new things with VoIP, but yeah, I think just optimizing the experience, you know, on the handsets too, noise cancelling has gotten really, really good. That used to not be a thing. And now, you know, building these like wall theoretical sonic walls around you seek to be off speakerphone, but the call center noise gets all drowned out. We can't hear it. There's a lot of kind of cool stuff there in meeting rooms. That seems to be a big place where companies are spending a lot. Video integration is probably going to be something that gets much more attention than it has today. I don't know when, but I know that's coming. For us, we're also looking at, so we also do software development on top of just using that sapiens. We're looking at trying to integrate the AI like everybody else's, right? So, have the system be able to predict to do things a little bit more when somebody calls in. You know, when you call in and you say something to the computer about who you're trying to reach, you know, it's looking at keywords, but there's a lot that could be done with AI there. So, I think there's going to be new things like that that will make it, the whole experience, just smoother and cleaner. But it's not going to be any one thing. It's hard to see for me because a lot of the predictions I've seen people make have impanned out. That's a good thing about mature technology, I guess. Exactly. I mean, honestly, it not being exciting can be actually quite exciting, because especially with the amount of drama and turmoil that's in various, you know, everything going on in these marketplaces and stuff, it's good to have something that you know should be relatively status quo for the upcoming future and then new stuff will be sort of organic growth or add-on or stuff like that. So, that's a good thing. It's a really good thing. Yeah. So, I started shaking was a big disruptor. Why did people weren't ready for various reasons or didn't have systems that were capable of doing it? I could tell you I beat my head against the wall so many times while we were trying to implement it ourselves because it was the technology was just catching up with where the regulation was and where the dates were and the cut off. So, like, well, the system can't really do this yet, but it needs to do it in three months. Is this going to happen? So, I feel like there's like a collective just relief right now of people just like, oh, we don't need to do anything for a little bit. Like, that was a big and needed update to kind of telophony in general. So, where are they going to have to do that call list again? Well, so, that still exists. The question is how effective it is. Yeah, it just doesn't work. Yeah, you know, I think just made you feel better. Yeah, I think ultimately, stir shaken ends up being the answer to that. So, the problem with a lot of those do not call lists was you get a call and then you complain about it, but it was something like fly by night organization. There was no way to track down who it is. There's actually already been some some really big finds from the FCC on stir shaken and where people were authenticating their calls. But the best part is that now you can point to the carriers that actually have all this bad traffic. So, there was a lot of known bad actors out there that they were the ones signing up all these companies that were doing the verbal calls and everything else like that was their bread and butter. Well, with stir shaken, the whole call path is authenticated. You know exactly where that call came from. And that's now allowing the FCC to start doing some finds. They've actually cut off some providers from being able to actually put calls on to the network, which is cool. I definitely noticed a downtick. It's definitely got reduced how much how many spam risk calls I get on my my mobile phone. Like I said, the house phone rings all day. I just I turn the ringer off, right? So because it's all I mean, even even in my office and this is a pain in the ass, even my office phone, it's like the phone rings all day and it's some telemarketer or something like that. So it's like it's annoying, you know, for that that kind of stuff. Yeah, the systems are getting better. So a reputation analysis is how you kind of figure out the it about phone call if it is likely to be telemarketers or robocalls or stuff. So there's there's all these different databases to tell what companies use. We use a service from a company called Transnexus. And it's just like tried to rate like IP addresses to say like, Hey, there's a lot bad traffic from this IP address. That's dynamically added to your firewall. Well, that's where those spam things are coming from. Like there's just bad phone calls coming, they're getting reported on your cell phone, you know, how you can now like identify text messages that like, Hey, this is a spam text message, right? So there's a lot of that type of stuff going on. And I think that stuff's going to continue to get better. I mean, will it get to the point where you never get a call? Probably not. But it's getting a lot better. So I hope that whole framework gets better. And there's probably some regulation from the FCC that can happen there that could help. But I I'm all for it. I don't want to I don't want those calls on my network either because every time they call you and it's just a junk call pissing you off costs me money. Yeah, that's true. I don't want that traffic either. So hopefully, hopefully that gets better over time. Usually not a big fan of government oversight or involvement in a lot of different things. But this is definitely one of the areas where I'm like, can we not just like blow some of these places up or something like burn down the data centers and yeah, you can treadle me daddy just a little bit for this one particular topic because these people are driving me insane. So yeah, it's it is kind of funny as an ISP, right? You don't want regulation. That's how this the whole with space even exists, right? Was deregulation and and opening things up. I mean, deregulation happened that a fluffy world in the 80s, right? Where the mob bell and got broken up and some of that stuff that enables wait to exist today. But voice has such a longer history of regulation behind it makes kind of the state stuff kind of in sales tax and whatever else that stuff a little annoying to me. But it also does mean that all of the players, you know, companies like us, telephone companies, the VoIP innovations of bandwidth comms of the world, whatever, we're all used to regulation and know is just kind of part of it. So when when the FCC wants to maybe do something, it's maybe not as big of a shock. And I think there is a little bit more buy-in, especially I like to shake it. There was a lot of concern about implementing it and how that was going to work and whatever. But I don't think it was really against it. Like, hey, can we get rid of robo calls? Yeah, I think everybody wants that, you know, though, you know, the the sausage, it's always ugly how it gets made. But I think that is a very good example actually where the FCC, I think they're a lot good. They listed all the stakeholders. We participated in some of those filings. We filed some stuff. And I was actually been pretty happy how everything's turned out. So yeah, very cool, very cool. Like, there was most of the VoIP stuff. I mean, there's a lot of questions I even know I have. So I think that part has been super informative. If you want, we can talk a little bit about Whisper, mainly because the Whisper America show coming up here shortly, Oklahoma City. So first time it's been there as far as I know. So, you know, we're looking forward to it. We're getting all of our bits and pieces together and everything. So, you know, you were, you know, y'all will be there. You've been coming there for years. You've got a lot of experience with the Whisper stuff, obviously, you know, being on the board and stuff a lot. You know, what's your, you know, it's funny like we're like, okay, what's the sales pitch for the show and Whisper in general? Because you would think people are like, you know, I've heard these messages and it's ad nauseam, the same stuff. But like, I mean, there were posts on Whis Talk yesterday that were literally, hey, what is this show? Should I check it out or whatever? So, you know, for Whisper America, what does it mean? What does it mean for you guys as a vendor? And what does it mean for, you know, your sort of personal experience, I guess? Will you start? We start. Well, you've been to, I feel like, all the Whisper shows. Been to most of them, yeah. I mean, as a vendor, it's honestly, it's still the only shows we do is the Whisper shows. We've talked about doing other shows, but the ones we've done, we never get the same bang for the buck. And I'm sure it's likewise for you guys. I know I'm sure you've reached out and, you know, the Whisper shows are just great. And I've always loved them. I've loved the community that's around them. You know, I can't stress enough how much, especially if you're new, how much you're going to learn, right? We need more days. Yeah. There's one constant for me and it doesn't matter how many of these shows I attend as a vendor or as an attendee is I don't have enough time to talk to everybody, to network, to go to the sessions, to learn, to spend time in the exhibit, all like, I'm always running around like a chicken with my head cut off. I know you guys are part two, just like trying to meet everybody and trying to talk to people and see things and do things. And I think that's where, for me, the value has always been. I could tell you from the Whisper side, the shows are significant as far as generating the revenue to really take action in DC. You know, the shows are the moneymaker. And they do a lot of really good stuff with it in DC. And I just love what Whispas become. I mean, I remember the first Whispal Clusa. Oh, if you guys were at it at Flamingo, you guys remember that right there? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was just a small room, right? You know, there's 20 booths or something in there. And now it's hundreds of vendors and thousands of attendees. And the Whispas and Organization now has a lot of really good people fighting the battle every day in DC for us. So shows are just amazing. I can't tell anybody not to attend. They're awesome. Best shows. I tell everybody to go. There's so much value for ISPs to go to that. Just meeting people, not just the sessions and meeting all the vendors and talking to everybody, but like the little talks that you have after the sessions or during the happy hours or, you know, late at night, like those bonds that last forever, we're one big family, I feel like. And everybody wants to help everybody. It's a completely different vibe than any other, you know, company, industry that I've ever been part of. So I love it. So everybody to go. So and I'm looking for those little brown first time attendees. I always make a big deal about that. I love it. I'm like, come back. Yeah. Bring up good pair of shoes. Yes. Drink lots of water. Be prepared for some longer nights. Sorry. Well, very cool. Very cool. Well, guys, I think that about wraps it up. Toss us anything else you want to cover or any other? No. That's it. Why don't you let us know where people can find you, Daniel? Yeah, so you can find Etherell. We're on Facebook at Etherell Rocks, E-T-H-E-R-A-L. Find us online at etherell.com or give us a call or phone number, summon 024702-770. Always happy to chat just about anything. I just love talking to Wisps and helping out any way I can. So even if it's not a void, I tell people that all the time. I'm like, any question? Yeah. Yeah, that's a big thing for me. And thank you guys for letting us join you today. Because we really love what you guys do and trying to spread knowledge out there. So appreciate it. Well, thanks for joining us. Yeah, thanks for sure. Toss us people looking for us as always. Where can they find us? Yeah, you can find us all over social media as well. All the popular Wisps groups on Facebook, Instagram, and of course on our website rfelements.com. All right, all right. Well, until next time, everyone. Y'all be good and we will talk to you guys later. Later. See ya. Thanks.