皆さんおはようございます こんにちは 今ご紹介いただきまして石蔵岡です どうぞよろしくお願いいたします今日はですね 散々デジタルエヴォルテューションウィーク2021の4日目でHow to Accelerate DXというタイトルで デジタル担当大臣台湾のデジタル担当大臣のオードリー担さんをお招きしています私もとてもこれを楽しみにしているんですけれどもオードリーさんについては皆さんよくご存知だと思うので このスライムで聞いていますが今まで本当にいろんなことをされていて 今はデジタル担当大臣としていろいろなことを進めていらっしゃるという感じですね私は今1つ橋のなんとかって書いてありますが 実はフリーターで今どこの組織にも属していなくてですねいろいろなことをやっているというのが実情で 特に若い人に対してのいろいろなことをやりたいなというかやっていますということなんで 今日はそのあたりも結構オードリーさんにいろいろ伺ってみようというふうに思っていますそれではこの辺から英語でやりますので 英語の準備をしていただければと思いますオードリーさん ありがとう very much for coming and taking time from your busy scheduleWe really appreciate having you and we have a lot of questions that we would like to askand if you could share your experiences, I think it will be greatAs a starter, I think DX, the Japanese government have been very much involved and encouraging DXThis digital transformation at the same time, I hear that a lot of companies in the private sectoris making DX as the big big slogan so to speakAnd for the government we have set up the new agency exclusively for digitalizationand we do have the minister in charge of itand the private sector is doing a lot of things depending upon what kind of industry, what kind of companies they arebut at the same time I'm a little bit concerned that we have been advocating this concept quite extensivelybut when it comes to whether that is going to be implementedand that leads to the tangible outputI have a little bit of a concern because we are very good at advocating and proposingand yet we are a little bit behind in terms of the implementationSo let me start off with the question of what are the critical elements to make the digital transformationproduce the results and make it happenCertainly, thank you Yoko for the questionMy job as the digital minister is not the IT ministerand I often make this clarification to many Japanese media because they used to call me the IT daijinand the difference is that IT connects machines and digital connects peopleso the necessary critical element of digital transformation is not to confuse it with ITif the work that you do brings people together, give voice to people who didn't have voicemake participation bi-directional, omnidirectional, multidirectionalrather than just people listening to one or two radio or TV stations and so onincrease the symmetry, the bit-rate of participation and engagementthen you are on the right path of digitalizationotherwise if you connect everything but still only one or two persons speak and everybody just listenthat's maybe digitization but it's not digitalizationit's not truly digitalOk, I think one of the things that you mentionedand I have heard your I watched your video as well as read your bookand some of the things that seems to be missingparticularly in Japan is that you talk about four pillarsand particularly these days, sustainability, innovation and inclusionand inclusion part is as you mentioned, you know, sharingand just make sure that everybody is involved rather than one or two peopleis critical and yet that is notI don't really see that clearly in Japanhow do you make sure that inclusion is everybody's businessThis is a great questionIn Taiwan, what we are doing is making sure that even people who are not of the voting ageyounger than 18 years old have full participation rightsthrough digital platforms to initiate, for example, petitionsthat cause for banning plastic straws on bubble tea drinksthat started by a 16 years oldand when I ask her why are you starting this movementshe's like this is our civic class assignmentSo the idea of inclusion begins with the basic educationand I think it also extends to lifelong educationbecause we see the most active group on our participation platformare 16 and 17 year old and 60 and 70 years oldso the silver hair and the young people are the two natural groupsthat care more about sustainability, about future generationsso if you make sure that these two group of peopleare in natural partnership with one anotherthat you are of a very good start in inclusionyou mentioned that the inclusion starts very early age16 year old girl talking about the strawbut is there any way that we can accelerate thatit means that we really have to gowe have to work on the education in early stageand it's going to take a little whilefor us to see the result of that inclusionthe concept of inclusionto be instilled in the younger generation kidsfor exampleso is there any way that we can just kind of fast trackyeah definitelyI'm sure that in Japan there's also plenty of very young peoplemaybe they're just 14 maybe they're just 15already starting a very good social movementsocial entrepreneurship and so onso in Taiwan our fast track is just to invite these young peopleto the cabinet level youth advisory counciland this council very interestinglyall appoints the people younger than 35some of them in their 20sbut they are already quite well known onlineand by calling them reverse mentorsadvice to the cabinetsthey get this natural positionthat goes against the existing discrimination based on agebecause instead of calling them young friendswe call them advisoractually the 16-year-old girlthat started the petition is now 19-years-oldand she is already advisorin the committee of national open government partnershipthe national action plan committeeand so I would call her the councillorso councillor Wangand even though she's not technically speakinga fully an adult yeta couple of questionsin order to make sure that the young peopleare placed in thegiven the position or the assignto the position of making decisionswe need like existing leadership groupsort of changing their mindset or whateverwilling to make sure that you involvethese people with new ideasand I'm not really sure whether that'sthat's not that easy because they havebest of interestand they may bethe reference point may be much morelike with their experiencesrather than today's digital nativeso how can we convinceor do we need to convince thesepresent sort of leaders of todayor leaders of todaythis is where the partnershipwith the silver haired people begins to showits importance for if the young people havethe support of the 80 years oldlike my grandma is 88 years oldthen those elderly people can actuallyspeakwith authority about the necessityof including young peopleone concrete example is that every yearour office hires very young peoplesome of them like 18 years oldinto our internship programbut initially all they did is to helpthe government web servicesto work across browsersbecause many older peoplethey're not that versed withkeyboard or internet explorerthey're more versed with their phonesor more natural ways of using tabletsand so on touch screenbut the government web services was not initially designed for thatmaybe they're designed for active actsor something like thatand so for the first couple yearsit's to make our government web site accessibleespecially to the elderly people who rely moreon touch screen and speech interfacesand that won the support of the elderly peopleand the career public service and the leadershipsee the young people as someone who assistsnot just criticizes and that builds a very goodintergenerational solidarityI'm just getting off a little bit from thethe questionsdo you think that the COVID-19accelerates that kind of trendbecause the reason why I ask that question is thatbecause of COVID-19 we're not able togo to the office or the senior peoplecould encodehave an opportunity because they can't really meetwith their friendsI think they have an incentiveand they're encouragedand I think that some people, some elderly people, old peopleare getting much more into internetbecause they want to keep in touch with the other peopleand yeah, so that may bea very good factorsort of a benefit of this COVID-19even though that restricts our movementYes, I think that transformation by necessityis definitely the caseactually many elderly people that I metespecially people in senior leadershipthey didn't want to tell a conferencenot because they cannot do itbut because they used to do that when they were youngand the technology was very bad at that timeso they remember how bad it waslike meeting face to face builds 1% trustbut a meeting ally deducts 2% trustand so because of thatthey don't want to video conferenceso COVID-19 is a great way to clean the cashlike the browser cash in their mindtheir stereotype about videoconferencingand they see nowadays with 5Gwith Wi-Fi connectionwith anyone's smartphone camerasactually it's very easy to set up and it actually brings peopleactually brings people closerrather than push people apart as they remember 10 years or 20 years agoand so this new familiarity I thinkis a great opportunitythat's very encouraging and I think that whateverthe opportunitywe should be able to take an advantage oflet me change the subject a little bitwe're talking about DXwhat kind of society do you expectwith the DXif DX proceedsI think that digital transformationwill make peace between the generationswe talked about people who are maybetwo or three generations apartbut the digital world also shows ushow the future generation will benefit or sufferthe future generationstoo often these are not visualized wellthese are not communicated wellso people cause pollution, climate changethis information that causes social upheavalwithout fully understanding the consequencesbut if we give voice and build an internet of beingsthen we can empower future generationswho are not even yet bornwe can have a full understandingof the consequences of our actionsand therefore make much more longerthinking which was previously impossiblethis is like how I experienced in virtual realityI put on virtual reality for the first time in 2016and saw the earth from the international space stationand suddenly all the borders disappearand when we are down there because of thecloudwe can't see other partsof the world very clearly but on the spacewe are much more holistic and we see the earthas an interconnected whole and this isessential if we are going to solve structural issuelike carbon dioxide that doesn't care about bordersactually the virus of the mindthis information or the virus of the bodythey are also cross border so to solve those cross border issuesrequire an intergenerational cross border thinkingand that's what digital transformationcan bring us like better telescopesI said great because I'm verycrazy about the universe and spaceand my favorite destinationafter the COVID-19 is to go to theinternational space station and stay therethere you gohow would you describe thetaiwan's position in the world with theex in the future in like three years five years outsure I think in three yearstaiwan will grow toward the skyto our international space stationwe grow by two and a half centimeters a yearso in three years that's what 7.5centimetersthe reason we grow and I guess it's relevanttoday is because of earthquakesin Taiwan we understand how badit could be for the earthquakes and the typhoonsand compound disasters so our developmentstrategy of digitalization is coupled withthe idea of resilience resiliencemeans that we build digitalizationnot to blindly develop one measurelike GDP or whateverbut rather make sure that each corner of our societyis well equipped with democratized toolsto respond in time if there is anunforeseen earthquake or typhoon orCOVID or things like that so I think inthree or five years time will be much moreresilient compared to what we have nowbecause just as we learned in 2004 after2003 we installed this central epidemiccommand center as response to newrespiratory diseases so we will buildcenters of excellence to respond to theemerging issues out of full digitalizationsuch as for example state sponsoredmalicious hackers that has beenactually all over the news over the past couple monthsthis is also something that we will build resilience towardIsa very interesting what would be yourindividual goal three years five years outor ten years can you share it with ussure I plan to visit Japan after theCOVID and meet you face to faceand maybe immerse myself in a newlanguage I really want to learn nihongo I currentlydon't speak the language but I would really want to learn that and beyondlearning the language I foresee that my job will take meto work more cultures around the world becausenowadays for the past year or so I wake up inmeeting in one time zone and throughout the day I move time zonesand by the evening I meet with the European and Africanpeople and so on so this is like touring around the world in a virtual wayand this really builds a more transcultural mindsetin me compared to the pre-COVID days so I look forward tovisit these cultures in real space once the COVID is overI see well when it comes to the language I hear youtalk to the young people and fromPohoku and we're in Japanese so I knowthat those big Japanese as wellI was reading of a script to be honest to be honestbut yes I'm really meaning to do thatjust changing the subject a little bityou have done tremendous things andaccomplishment so far if you are able todo it all over again would you do something differentor would you sort of follow the same thingyou talk about the resilience and learning from SARS and all sorts of thingsbut what you know nowdefinitely I will make a couple changesthe first one is that I think we will make surethat the open API initiative is wrote out even soonerbecause we helped rolling out the open data initiativein 2012 2013 and by 2014I'm well integrated into the open data landscape in Taiwanand at the time of the open data council in the national development councila committee but however what we are now seeingis that if we push open API before open datait actually lowers everybody's riskbecause if you push open data and a public servant needs to review itbefore publishing it creates more work for themit's more risk for them if things go wrong and they get less trustfrom people if things go wrong but if we push open APImeaning that data is published as soon as it's collectedwithout human review or human interventionthen it saves their time it builds trust and when people criticizeabout the data quality or data pipeline everybody can offerthe solutions together and no public servant would besaying this is a waste of time because it didn't spend timeto begin with so I would begin the automated API basedopen data much sooner than beforethan what we actually did in 2016 that's the first thingI will change the second thing that I will change in my waysis to make sure that the public service holds thediscussion themselves previously in 2012 2013we rely on the outside people to chairthe communities of transformations and so onbut it turns out the career public service already knowhow to make such changes it's just they weren't given the mandatethe authority so we switched by 2016 into aone by one like reverse mentorshiprelationship where the young people the outside experts reversementor a career public servant but it's the career public servantthe actual plans and so this makes sure that they internalizethe digital transformation instead of seeing theseoutside experts as contractors and so on they have tosee through this end to end process so that's something we couldhave introduced in 2013 or 2014 but we waited until16 to introduce it I will also begin that soonI see you mentioned the sort of the importance of trustin many aspects of the digital transformationdata and particularly so because we have so much informationand some of them are not you know facts andat the same time I think we are not quite sureit's not very clear to me whether the trustis we do have trustthe amount of trust that we need to go onand my question is that trust is very difficult to buildit takes time and you can lose it veryvery quickly but it does take a lot of timeto build you have any suggestions I thinkright now we have a little bit of a government you know private sectorand the people who may trust you the media who maynot trust and vaccination and all sorts of thingsany suggestions as to how to build the societywhere the trust we talk about the importance of trustbut when it comes to how to build itit's a very challenging taskyes our habit is to invite peoplewho criticize into the decision making processso people who criticize actually care about thisotherwise they wouldn't bother criticizingand my favorite question to ask is if you are the digital minister thenwhat would you do and if they have a good ideaI apologize very quickly I'm okay apologizing and I say your idea will becomenational policy by next Thursday because we use the agilemethod we deploy every Thursday that's our screen our iterationso anyone who can call the toll free numbermore than 2 million people called that number last yearthey understand if they have a really good idea chances arethat the minister me or minister or the cabinet ministerswill acknowledge their contributioninvite them into the decision making process and because they feel they are partof the solution they wouldn't write off the trustthey can criticize about our incompetence but oncetheir idea become our policy then of course the criticizebecome constructive criticism then it's not aboutattacking each other canceling each other's trust so I thinkthe two most important thing one is a very quick iterationif they have to wait a year of course there's no trust anymoreand the second is this swift apology if I did something wrongI just apologize very quickly and say next Thursday your idea will become the policythis quick iteration is somethingthat I don't quite see hereand I think that's key to this whole worldand at the same time to build the trustand I'm not quite sure I think wethings are changing to some extent so I have a hope and I'm optimisticbut we tend to sort of postpone it keep it offuntil we know what works or we havemore information and let's decidewe can think of quite a few examples right nowwe haven't made any decisions or we haven't done anythingeven though we sort of know that's the direction that we're goinghow the quick iterationis not something thatis something that you built or you knowhow did you make sure that does help take placeor hasn't been in time yetwe need to institutionalize itwe are both democratic polity so we already have a iterationit's just voting is very longit has a very low bit ratewe need to give or take a couple of bits so the bit rate being so lowit makes people not care abouteveryday decision making or collective intelligencebecause they wouldn't think that their contribution, those three bits per four yearsactually have such a good contribution to the societyso what we could do is to install newhigher bandwidth types of technologyfor example the petition websitejoin.gov.tw just like how amazon will recommend youbooks to read based on the books you have readbased on the petition you have signed the platform will suggest you other petitionsthat you might be interested ineveryday you can start a petition join a petition and so onand increase the bit rate of contribution and you can also of coursecriticize offer alternate ideas to a petitionbut we make sure that while you can comment on the contrapanel and you can support it on a four pro panelthese two panels cannot reply to each otherso people don't waste time to criticize and attack each otherthey spend time on the issue at hand and upvoting or downvotingbut they do not waste time cancelling each other offpro social media so if we design the digital public infrastructureso it's pro social then it's fun so people will participateso the key to more participation is to make the response fastmake the response fair and also make it funand if it's fast, fair and fun people spend more time on democracyand with higher engagement naturally you get into a placewhere people feel shorter iteration is just fine because that'swell we are used to responding anywayvery interesting and I thought I was like reply buttonis not there is a I think it's a very very interestingand device that makes sure that you know you don't criticizeyou go back and forth and back and forth which seems to be gettinganywhere so but let me ask youlet me go back to this young generation sort of engagementyou have done this incredible job of engagingthe younger generation and in JapanI think you talked a little bit about the lost chapter of your bookwhich I read and the Japanese young peopleeven though I really do count on thembecause they are the ones who are going to create the futureand they're going to be around I'm not going to be around20 years from now hopefullybut it seems like they are not as engagedand I'm not really sure whether they are not interestedor they don't feel that whatever they saymakes a difference and also they're not as engagedparticularly for the other movement as you did in Taiwanand so what would I doI think rather than justcriticizing the young generation don't have anything to sayyou really need to make sure that you encourage themto participate and make surein a way I do believe in do as I dorather than do as I sayany suggestions as to the older generationthat sort of 30 years olderYes, speaking as a 30 somethingjust for another month or so I turn 40 the next monthspeaking as a 30 somethingI think this is a critical question because the young peoplethey are digital native, they think in terms of the digital worldthey think in terms of the open spaces onlineactually feel that's close to their neighbors unless their neighborssomehow makes them feel that their suggestions makesense otherwise they're much more interested in influencingtheircommunity neighbors online which feels much closerto them so I think that idea of neighborhood of communityreally changes with the digital world and I think theway to fix this is actually very simple it isjust to make sure that their immediate neighbors people in the same townshipand so onactually look for the guidancethe direction, the digital transformation from the young digitalnatives so I always say to the youth advisorsthat you decide on the direction and we providethe resources and together we will form a vectorthey decide where to point and we make sure that we go thereand so the people who are youngthey actually are there's no shortage of new directions to gobecause they're very well connected they see the best practicesor better practices in other corners in the world and they areok translating introducing it to the people around themso asking them to become for example social entrepreneurswhile absorbing the risk of failure by the education facilitythat's what the Taiwanese people do we make sure that in theirundergrad studies they can use their startupas a undergrad capstone project making sure thatthe initial investment capital if they have to pivotis absorbed by the education budget and things like thatso they can try quite a few new things using crowdfundingand then if they fail spectacularly which they probably willfirst couple tries they will write it up as field papersand also contribute to the sciencesso to make sure that there's no risk in failure I encourage the young people to care moreabout their immediate neighborhoodI think you talked a little bit about education and school and so forthwhat would the school and education system with the DXlook likeI think the campus the idea of the place where we learn togetheris going to be like everywherethe promise of digital transformation is that it frees usfrom the fixed structure the physical structurethat constrain the number of people who can listen to each otheron the online space there's no such boundaries so peoplewell aside from time zones and the sleeping pattern but other than thatthere's no easy burdenthat's put on people's mind if we say let's just connecton video conference you don't automatically thinkwhat about travel what about commuting what about busschedule and things like which tend to complicate thingswhen people need to meet with people they barely knowso the weak links can form strong links online much moreand gradually too rather than the immediate burdens that people thinkabout in the physical world and the same applies to educational institutionsindeed the whole city the whole country the whole worldmaybe a campus and their classmates quote unquotemaybe people in different sectors in different age groupsin different disciplines and so on as long as they share a commonvalue so I think education in the future will concentrate on the common goodon the things that people consider important regardless of their ageor culture or place differences and then the digital transformationwill form a study group with people who care about the same valuerather than just happen to share the same neighborhoodI see so that opens up tremendous opportunitiesfor a lot of people to connect and do things togetherI see collaborate I think collaboration is one of the key things that youoften mention and sharing and so forththen the question is what happens I mean I loveto ask questions what if what if digitalizationand digital things disappear oneday so it means that it goes toquantum or something right so it's no longer digitalright we have analog ministers and then digitalminister maybe we'll have quantum ministers in a few yearsyeah I think that the world is lookingtoward new ways of conversations of communicationand these are the core human needs be it the analogtechnologies of pen and paper which are pretty good by the wayor the digital technologies like the video conference were havingnow or maybe one day the quantum technologies ofsecure communication that cannot be eavesdropsor direct links between the quantum states of our brainsso that we can feel each other's emotions better and so onI think the common hope is to link people together as you said to collaborateand digital or the digital tools are just a faceit's a instrument someday maybe quantum or non-digital waysare we replace this generation of toolsthat'll be very interesting I agree that digital is just a meansand yet I think we a lot of people tend to thinkthat the digital is it without thinking about what kind ofsociety what kind of things you would like to do andthat's something that we have to get awaybecause it's much easier to think about and measureif we are talking about how tos or techniques or methodsbut we really need to think aboutwhat kind of society, what kind of world we would like to createhow does the individual happiness fit inwe talk very often about thiscreating the common good andhow does the individual sort of happinessfit init's a positive cycle if I feel happymore able to shareand if I'm happy on average even on the time where I'm unhappyI'm motivated to write why I feel unhappy and what I did to make myself happierand share it with the worldthe more base happiness the more sharingit makes a supportive environment to make it easier for people to feel happyhappiness this joy this fun feeds into this cycleso I think the importance of individual happinessis not that you have to feel happyit's just you need to mingle with the community that's on average happyand then you can support the community and the community can support youthat's very good and becausewe tend to thinkeverything in terms of the conflictonline offlinebut I think what you're saying is that it's much more comprehensiveas we talked about inclusiveand so that's the kind of thing that we're talking about individual or the other society or the worldlet me change it since we have about two more minuteslet me talk a little bit about private personal mattersyou describe your day and the bookin a very clear way you walk to the placeyou make coffee, ice and all sorts of thingswhat comes to your mind when you start the dayyes when I wake upI look at my surroundingsand I write down often with this stylusthe things that I learned in my sleepbecause I read material without passing judgmentgoing into sleep so I often wake upwith a new idea that brings those different things togetherfor example you mentioned about this versus thatso I would sometimes go to sleep thinking about acomment that I read actually Tyler Cohen's blogat one day where a commentator saysshe also says she's non-binaryhow can a digital minister be non-binarybecause we know digital world is a binary worldI would fall to sleep with thatand I write down my comments to thatI actually did write that down and I saiddigital is not binaryit could be decimaldigital is also digitalin our mind there can be more than one valuethis plurality is also digitalthis is the kind of thing that I wake up withand then I just write it downI think that is something that I found in yourtalk or in the bookI think that's by far the most important thing for mebecause I think that while you sleepyou read all the things before you go to sleepand in the morning you have key phrasesI'm going to practice itwhether that works or notI think we're just running out of timebut thank you so much for such an inspiringand such an exciting talkand I do appreciate it very muchand I hope we will meet in personto meet with all sorts of people in realworldThank you for the very enjoyable conversationThank youという事で今回の踊り炭酸とのセッションはこれで終わりましたとても面白かったと思うので皆さんも色々参考にして頂ければいいかなという風に思いますありがとうございました