 Thanks for staying with us. The internet has grown over the years and while technological advancements have been widely accepted, it also poses the risk of security threats. In Nigeria today, several internet-assisted crimes, known as cybercrimes, are committed daily in various forms, such as fraudulent electronic mails, pornography, identity theft, hacking, cyber harassment, spamming, automated tele-machines, poofing, piracy and fission. Cybercrime is a threat to various institutions and people who are connected to the internet, through their computers and mobile technologies. The exponential increase of this crime in society has become an issue that cannot be overlooked. The impact of this kind of crime can be felt on the lives, economy and international reputation of the nation. And tonight, we want to look at how we can prevent cyber fraud on our continent. Please let's hear what you have to say. Remember, you can join the conversation, send us an SMS or WhatsApp to 081-80384663. You could also Twitter us at WeShowAfrica1 with the hashtag WeShow. Gloria again, we've come back to this cyber security issue. I was saying at that time that I read somewhere that there's a survey that says cybercrime is costing Africa over $3.5 billion and that's a very, very huge amount of amount of money. And I'm asking myself how then do we deal with this? How are we able, how can we actually curb this crime? Is this something that can be put, that can actually be corrected? It's something that we can do something about in Africa at the time because clearly the use of digital media is increasing by the day. So we cannot say, okay, everybody should stay away from this time because everything now is your mobile apps, you know, social media, everything. Even education now is done with the internet as well. So since all of this is happening, it means that we're generally exposing ourselves more to cyber cyber crime. Cyber crime, yes. Or cyber fraud. What are your thoughts on this? It's a bittersweet experience. It's just like using antibiotics. I'm not a science person but I know a little bit about that. The defense, the more you use it, the body or the the antibodies become more powerful. So the more people are advancing technologically, the more people are looking for a way to make money by destroying the system. So I've always asked this question, like this virus, virus on computer, virus on this. Why is there virus? I don't even understand it and from what I've gotten to understand, it's built. So when people, because people make money of these things. So it's a bittersweet experience, something which I don't think will ever get over it because some people thrive in wanting to override the systems through fraud and all of that. And even I remember we have similar situations where IT guys are probably tired of us by now because we're constantly calling him, this is going on. So it got to a point where I'm even scared of some mail. So when I say there was a time when someone sent a mail. Ha! That mail almost. So I think it's just one second for to say, think about this mail. Don't touch these calls. I had to call an IT guy like, I got this mail, I don't understand and apparently it's phishing or so. So someone identity, everything are signature, everything. So we had to increase the security system, change passwords, everything. So that's how, that's how bad it is. But something which we just continually face, I would just have to look for a way to mitigate against it. And that's the importance of this conversation. Speaking about experiences, I remember one time when I was a teacher, when this was I think during COVID. So, you know, we had just moved teaching to using Zoom and online platforms, right? And I remember one time we had the children in the class and I was, we're having a conversation online in the classroom and all of the kids said, Mr. you know, there's a stranger in the class, I'm like, stranger. How? And I looked at all the people and then I saw that there was a name. The person was actually cloning one of the other students in the class. So it was the boy that I said, I can see another person that is wearing my name in this class. And this person was sending all sorts of messages and pictures to all the children in my classroom. So it was there when I realized, okay, you know, we have to actually now start locking the classroom. So before you gain entry into the class, you know, you have to wait for me to then admit you are. So imagine how this is actually affecting even the tiniest things that you think is nothing but thank God, again, we have an expert to discuss this with us in the studio today. So Murakki, your animal is an experienced cyber security professional and entrepreneurial with a proven track record of successfully delivering projects. He's a subject matter expert in open banking, digital transformation, situational awareness and cyber threat intelligence, advanced threats, attack patterns, and quantitative security risk analysis. Thank you for joining us in the studio today, Mr. Murakki. Thank you. Glad to be here. We're very happy to have you. Gloria, it's a pleasure to be here. It's too pretty to be here. Thank you so much. Okay, so I mean, you had our banter earlier and about this and we have cited different experiences already. And also when I was introducing it, I talked about, I saw your big one, digital transformation, cyber security and all that. But then there's one question I even want to let's start from, you know, the very grassroots. Yes. So what are some of the common cyber crimes in Africa right now? Okay, so the common ones are, well for most people now, one of the most common things is what people call Instagram fraud. Okay, so you want to buy something, you see something you like on Instagram, you place an order and one, it may never come through or when it does come, it's not what you ordered. So that's common, that's rampant, you know. That's like the bottom of it and it goes all the way up to people that actually attack institutions directly like banks, I'm sure you must have heard about MTN. Yes. You know, every now and then people will say oh, it didn't really happen or it's you know, they'll build stories around that, around it but the truth is as they used to say, there's no smoke without fire. So usually it's because something has happened and somebody has been breached. Okay, so that's it, there's a whole range. The techniques are interesting, they continue to get more sophisticated. One of the things people don't know is that there are some people that are dedicated to a career of cyber crime. We are not just talking about their own boys we know in nature, we are talking about globally, people that report at 8am in the morning to work, people that have a budget for R&D. Wow. You know, so it's not, it's not kiss play at all. You know, it's big time. I heard you mention the figure that Africa loses, globally Africa has 7 trillion dollars to cyber crime. It is estimated that it will be 10 trillion dollars by 2025. Wow. So it's not, it's a big industry. It's bigger than some of the industries that people are even legit about here. Yeah, legit industries that people are excited about is huge, is large. And I tell people that when people say, oh, it's because of technology, I say no. There's always been crime. There's a pattern to crime. There's a motivation for crime. What has happened is that crime has just gone where the money is. It's as simple as that. So the money has gone online, crime has gone on it. As simple as that. Interesting. So I would like to find out. So we have this situation in Nigeria where when you just open an account I don't know if it's happened to you before. When you open a new account, someone will just call you and say, you're so-so, so-so, so-so. So sometimes I feel like maybe some bank officials are collaborating with all the other ones actually doing this. But my question is how do we begin to protect ourselves from some of these online payment platforms? How do we identify the secured ones? Because most of the payment is now online. So when you're trying to buy things online, you need to input your card details and all of that. So how do you start determining which platform is safe? What are the signs? What are the things you probably see on the website to be able to say, okay, this is safe for me to input my card details and pay online. Okay. So that's simple at the basic level again. Okay. Well, again, what I tell people is that even those that are supposed to be secured, they get breached. Okay. So we've got to disabuse our mind from thinking that there is 100% prevention. Okay. So it's not going to happen. If you want 100% prevention, don't do any online transactions. Yeah. Basically. Is that supposed to be sort of comfortable? We cannot stop ourselves from buying online. Yeah. So we've got to find, we've got to change our approach to the problem. So if you are trying to achieve 100% prevention, we'll miss it. Okay. So it's got to be something else that agrees that, you know what, no matter what we do, there's going to be some kind of breach. Now we should not be asking ourselves, okay, so what's the likelihood of a breach? And when a breach happens, what do we do? If we don't approach it that way, then we are chasing shadows really. Okay. So talking about what you just said, if you go to more sites, they will tell you look for a padlock. So there's supposed to be a padlock that shows that it's secure. It's a secure. Then the other thing is, it's either HTTP or HTTPS. So it's secure. It's supposed to be more secure if it's HTTPS. In fact, if any site is asking you to do a transaction and it's not HTTPS, you shouldn't go ahead. Because what it means is that whatever you're transmitting is not encrypted. Okay. That means anyone can see access in clear text. Okay. The minimum any serious business should be doing for their customers is to at least encrypt their data. So that at least you need to do a bit of work before you can get access to it. That's interesting. Okay. I've learned one thing now. So if I want to do any online transaction, I have to make sure that it hits HTTPS. Okay. So for me, in the first bit, I don't see I'm not old, but I think I'm a bit old. I don't like the idea of online shopping. I don't know why. I just prefer to, you know, go to a physical store and see what is that I'm buying and then pay for it. So I have never fallen victim of Instagram scam. But I know people who in fact, I know a lot of people that has happened, as a matter of fact, I know someone who someone else cloned his business on Instagram and, you know, was trading and offering massive discounts to the point that people don't say to send his other page message that his original paid message is to say imagine. So you are trying to repost. And he's like, is this what a person there is repaying you of? I'm not the one repaying you of. And that was so funny to me, right? So I want to know how. So now this is all talking about, like I said, we'll come from, you know, basics. How can people, I mean when we say Instagram, Instagram, Instagram, Instagram, people will say, okay, verify maybe the person should have a picture on their page. They should have a number that you'll be able to call. Maybe if you're chatting with them on WhatsApp, you should be able to confirm they should have an address or, you know, something like that. What other methods can we use to verify that indeed we're not dealing with these social media scammers? Okay. So there are many things that we recommend. First thing I would recommend is that you yourself, you need to take charge of your digital ID. So a lot of people do not realize that their digital ID is valid. Okay, so they treat their digital ID with lack of respect. Okay, and because of that that's already placed in a position where you're likely to be an easy victim. Okay, so I've said that, you know, there's nobody that can stop, 100% stop themselves from being a victim. But all you want to do is you want to make it difficult. Okay, so like almost any other thing if the difficulty level is high, they want to move on to somebody that's easier. Even the cyber criminals, they want the low-hanging fruits. Okay, so if they see that the work that they require to scam you or to defraud you is too much they'll move on to someone else. So basically what each person wants to do is to make sure that my difficulty level is higher than Chinelo's. So that instead of them coming after me they'll go after Chinelo. Okay, so that is the first point. So one of the things I tell people is this, I find interesting that most people have no cotton to the fact that from your internet alone, from your social footprint alone people can actually get enough information if they're interested and they know how to go about it, to breach you. Okay, so I was talking to some of my colleagues the other day and I said, just imagine our banks, some of the security questions they ask you. Those are the questions that they are supposed to use to verify and validate. But let's talk about those questions. What city were you born? What is your birthday? I'm sure if I took two minutes and go out and come back I'm sure I'll be able to tell your birthday. So there are too many things that once upon a time they were valid questions, they were valid ways of verifying. But in this social media era, in this digital era, they no longer hold water. But we're still using them. Okay? Now I go to, if I scout somebody's social media presence within a short period I'm sure I can get most of the information concerning the person and some of those information are the information that the person we use as security security questions. So if your security questions are out there what are we talking about? Really. We showed a video in my organization because at least every month, sometimes more regularly, we do, even though we are supposed to be experts, we have to remind ourselves that hey, this name is a constant battle. You've got to be at the cutting edge, you've got to keep yourself fresh. So we did we showed a video and it was how they piece together a woman's data. They wiped all the money from our account. Very simple things. Things that can happen to any of us. You go to a restaurant your card is on the table you take a selfie you don't realize that your card detail is showing you post it on. For you it's not a big deal because it's not very big, it's not very clear. But these are guys we zoom in on that card and use technology to be able to extract the information on that card. But in that process, I'll take for example this card, there are two steps authentication where they send the code, isn't that yes supposed to be in some sort of security? Step by step. They are not in a rush. Maybe they are trying to get through to a million people or more. So you'll be in the cooler. It's a pipeline. So this is what we have concerning Gloria. What is missing? We'll see. So people are in the pipeline they are constantly working and trying to get all of this. They know that if they get your information then it becomes easy for them to defraud you. I must say many of us make it a bit easier for them to get all that information. I'm not saying don't take selfies. I'm not saying don't take pictures but just be a bit more careful. So part of the training we did somebody was in the office and was celebrating in the office and took pictures and what do you call it? Screen was facing the photograph and there was information on that screen. Now whether the information on that screen was the kind of cyber criminals we want or not is irrelevant but the fact that you're not even conscious enough to realize that that kind of stuff should not go online. It's a problem in itself. So training awareness is a major thing. It's a good starting point for most of us. I like the fact that you mentioned awareness but that's where I was going to come to next. While I was doing my research for this conversation I found something that was supposed to be an African Union convention. Out of the 55 countries in the African Union it was noted that only 13 countries have so somewhat registered. So does this mean that even the African countries are not encouraging they're not providing as much awareness or they're not even interested in the fact that they should be careful and provide more awareness about cyber security because that's what I could deduce from that when I read that. So do you think the government has a responsibility in actually creating awareness of cyber security? Yes. It means in any words. So it's a social problem. Anything that's a social problem is a government responsibility. So let's play a scenario. Let's say cyber becomes even more pervasive than it is now. What will happen is that people will not want to do digital transactions anymore. You don't want to you're no longer confident or trusting your banks with your digital transactions. What does that mean for the government? What does that mean for the economy? So any government that can see and realize that this is more than just a personal problem for those that are losing money, but everyone that loses money erodes the trust in the digital banking system and if that trust is eroded to a point maybe you heard about a bank in the US recently, SBB. What happened was erosion of trust. It was in cyber fraud, but once there's erosion of trust, it can always lead to anything. People can decide you know what, no matter what anybody says and put in by I mean look at what happened during the cash swap. Once the trust became eroded everybody started people that would not want to take their money to the bank. So rather hold it. So there is a responsibility of government. The earlier government realizes there is a social problem and they need to get involved the better. There are some countries that have already shown the way. In Estonia for instance, there is a government funded and government driven awareness program for every citizen of the country. So it's a government funded and government driven program. Every citizen of Estonia is supposed to be cyber security aware. And there are some other countries that are doing it. The UK started something recently that's also very interesting and it's the same and they want to make sure that they make it just a bit more difficult for the cyber criminals to defraud their citizens. So that's it. And there is a lot government can do. I mean let me bring it back to the companies. I read an article which says small and medium-sized enterprises are more prone to this. It's not like the bigger corporations are not there. They have the resources to really invest in all this prevention. So let's say we want your services. What are some of the things you probably prefer a solution to all this type of fraud? Okay, interesting. You nailed it. So the problem is not that big companies are not targeted. The problem is that they got more resources. So they got a CISO, they got an IT security team, they have consultants. This small business is not going to give its money to those people. So it's really a matter of resource for most of them. Apart from those that are not aware, there are some that are aware that they will tell you it's a matter of priority. Do I put money into cyber security? I put money in trying to make sure the business is even thriving and doesn't go down. So if we're talking about let me take it broadly. When I saw the title, cyber fraud prevention in Africa, one of the first thoughts that came to my mind is that we need to expand it beyond cyber fraud prevention and maybe call it cyber fraud protection. Prevention means we want to stop it from happening. We may success to some extent, but we will not get it right fully, 100%. So we need to now begin to talk about when our prevention fails, what is in place? You're talking about your experience today and the car accident and all that. For you, as far as you're concerned, it shouldn't have been a big problem. They should just have exchange insurance and everybody should have gone home. It didn't happen that way. So for instance if you have money in your bank and the money is taken away through cyber fraud, you put in all the security you ought to put in, but it still happens. What recourse is there for you? In present day Nigeria now what happens to the person that loses their money from? You probably know as we get to talk about it. Sorry, I tell you what happened because we spent a number of years doing research. What happens is that for most people, they go on social media and they begin to drag. So they hope that in dragging, they will cost enough attention. But you know what we found, over 90% of people never get their money. Out of the 10, less than 10% that get their money back we found out again that it takes between 3 to 9 months. Now if that money was the money you were planning to use to pay for your rent, those 3 to 9 months is really if it was money for school fees for your children, those 3 to 9 months are. And you know in Nigeria the recourse showed that only 4% of Nigerians, less than 4% of Nigerians have access to credit. So that means if your savings or the money that you plan to use for something is gone that means you can't even say you know, I tell people that we must understand that our problems are different from that of developed countries. Everybody is facing cyber fraud issues. But in addition to cyber fraud issues, we are facing an additional problem of recidence, financial recidence. So if I lose my money in the UK so long as I have a clean record, I just borrow money to do whatever I need to do. While I'm trying to recover my money let's even forget the fact that their recovery speed and rate is much better than ours. But in Nigeria, your only recourse is family and friends. I will baptize you if family and friends are not in a very good position at that point in time. So that creates a problem. I'm asking myself and that's one of the reasons why we started the business we started. We're asking ourselves, okay, I've been in cyber security for many years. I've been doing a lot of prevention with different organizations, you know. And then I continue, I continuously see that, you know what, nobody is watching now for the, let's use that popular phrase, come on man. So the bank is spending and the banks are doing an excellent job spending a lot of money but the bank is focused on infrastructure. And at the end of the day, nobody is focusing on this guy who is supposed to be your customer, who doesn't know so much about cyber security, who doesn't have protection that's at par with what you have on your bank side. And the guy is just like free meat for the, you know, for the cyber criminals. So what we're saying now is that we need to bring attention to that space and say okay, what can be done to secure the individuals and small businesses that are like individuals. And that's how we came up with the product that we've come up with now. It's called Pele. Okay. If you're just tuning in, we're discussing cyber prevention in Africa with Mora Kenyo and Iman Shan. We're having a very interesting conversation here tonight. Please just hear what you have to say. Remember, you can join the conversation. Send us an SMS or what after 081-803-84663. You could also Twitter at Weshawafika1 with the hashtag ways show. So several came forward to me break it. We're saying that some preventive measures have now been coined for the common math. So to speak. And we're going to say something about that. Okay, so beyond just preventing, I'll call it protection. Protection. Okay, so what happens now is that the perimeter of the bank has changed. Okay, unfortunately we are not operating as if we realize this. Okay, so once upon a time, if you wanted to do a transaction with the bank, you would need to go to the bank. Okay, so the perimeter was around the bank's infrastructure. Yes. Okay, after a while it was extended to ATMs. It was stretched a bit but the ATM was still under the control of the bank. But now your phone is like your ATM. Who's in control of that phone? Not the bank. It's you. Okay, is that phone, does they have the level of security and ATM up? No, it doesn't. Okay, so what's being done about it? So we've come up with a product that allows us to help you secure your phone. As the first step, that's the preventive side that we talked about. But because we realize that prevention is never 100%, there's a second step to that which says that, you know what? If you lose money from your account after taking on this service, then you're going to get reimbursed to the cover that you've taken on that account. It's like an insurance. It's like an insurance. It's cyber fraud insurance. So you have two things coming together. It's common in healthcare. Healthcare is prevention and cure. Okay, so the same way now in cybersecurity prevention and cure. So we do our best to prevent. If you get scammed, hacked, and you lose money, then you get refunded. And the speed of refund is within seven days. So that, hey, unless it's really a very desperate situation, you won't be traumatized. And one of the things I tell people is that cyber fraud goes beyond money. Because I've read and I've seen clips of people that committed suicide because they lost money. We've spoken to people that they were so traumatized. There's a guy that we were talking to. He says every time he gets an alert, he literally checks because he can't get it out of his head. The time he got an alert at night and his money was just going and he said transaction after transaction and he couldn't do anything about it. So now every time he gets an alert, his first reaction is to check. So it has, it's traumatic for the people that have expressed it. And I think the society as a whole needs to come together to say, this is a problem that needs to be solved. The problem of cyber fraud cannot be solved by any single organization. It requires collaboration. We've talked about government previously. All the institutions that have customers that can be scammed or hacked also need to get on board. The law enforcement agencies need to get on board. For many of the law enforcement agencies, people say that ah, but they don't they don't prosecute or they don't put enough people in jail. That's why there's no deterrence. But before you can put people in jail, you must have a case. Okay? Unfortunately there's not enough data for them to build their cases most time. That's why you find that most of the cases that they are successful with is usually connected to Interpol. Yeah. But we need to begin to build data locally. So that we can attribute who is behind this scam. It can be traced online. People think that they are anonymous online. Yes, you are anonymous to some extent. But it's not full anonymity. With the right tools and expertise. The things that are possible. I want to find out, can you say about the scamming situation? I'll just bring it back to Nigeria. So you have law enforcement going after, and in some cases there's also the claims of them collaborating. Like when they catch or you give me something. So what's your thoughts around that? And how do you think this can, what measures do you think the government can put in place to further tighten those gaps where it seems like the law enforcement is collaborating with them. We don't even know what they are doing. You know if we start this discussion we will not be able to discuss it. Law enforcement issues are too wide. There are psychological issues, there are social issues, there are financial issues. They are not going to pay. They are not going to have taken care of. I mean they are going to deposit bags. So there are lots of issues. I'm not excusing them, but I'm just saying that to tackle that issue is wide. But let's limit it to our own side. Collaboration, it's not as if the collaboration will stop, but you know you can collaborate when there are opportunities. So when there's a lot more transparency collaboration becomes very difficult. If an individual is a victim of cyber fraud, many times the individual just drops the case after a while because they don't have the muscle or the patience or the resources to pursue it. But when there's an organization that's pursuing the case on behalf of the individual, then it becomes a different ball game. Especially an organization that's got the resources, has got the data. And that's one of the things that we bring into the market. So I'm representing Gloria, I'm representing Chinelo. If you have this problem, instead of you taking the time off from work you just hand it over to me and I pursue it on your behalf. I think that's a better way to approach it because in most cases you see that you, the time for you to even follow up would even discourage in most cases from following up. I'll follow up. You made a statement, you said I'm really, I'm sort of an intrigue when you say you provide protection when it comes to the phone issue and even where a station where someone loses his money, you can reimburse. Who is backing? How? Are you a financial insurance? I'm just, where are those resources? Because this is a lot. People are losing money every day. So when you are confident to say if you lose your money, I guarantee you're going to get it back or gar, or gar. So you know there's no business partner who goes into business with his eyes open and know that he's going to incur losses. So we've done plenty of research and we've seen that, for instance 80% of cyber fraud executed through phishing 80%. That means if you can lock down phishing to a large extent, you've locked down 80%. So now we are dealing with just 80%. Out of the 20% social engineering takes a high percentage. So again what we've done is we've broken it down into the bits and we've looked at how can we minimize this. If I can bring phishing down from 80% to 5% I know I'm dealing with 5% because some people no matter what to do they will still form a group. But there is something that can be done to reduce the likelihood and it's based on that we have had conversations and engagement with our insurance partners and we've run figures. They've seen the proof of the figures that we've run. They've seen the effectiveness of this technology and they see that oh wow this makes sense. No insurance company will back a product that they think they are going to be paying out for this. The money that they are bringing. Okay. So now let's come back to the rule of the government in helping to prevent and protect now. Like you rightly said, protect. What can the government do? I'm less narrowed down to Africa and Nigeria. What can the government do better to help to curb this problem of cyber fraud? How can we strengthen our cyber security in Africa and Nigeria? First thing I will say is that the government should lead a collaboration. If government says I want all banks all law enforcement agencies and so on to come together to deal with the issue of cyber fraud. Even if you will not ordinarily collaborate with me, because government is involved, you have a responsibility, you're going to at least show a responsibility towards that. The government leads a collaboration with a good understanding not just to form a committee. The committees are formed and it's really not about forming a committee. It's about identifying clearly. This is the problem. We understand the impact of the problem on society and we need to take action against it. We need to cover it. According to the statistics in Nigeria by 2026 cyber fraud would cost us a trillion Nair in Nigeria. Right now, it's just about 30 billion Nair. I can tell you something about figures in Nigeria they underreported. You can imagine that leap from 30 billion now. If nothing is done about it, it's going to be really a big social problem. Government can do many things. One, bring together all the parties and encourage them to collaborate. Provide a platform for them to collaborate. Number two is that cyber security is a battle. It's a battle between the good guys and the bad guys. Now, in Nigeria our good guys are Jackmine. You have to bring them. Because I was even going to come there. We know that the tech guys are living in Nigeria. We had the deficit before. Even before, they started Jackmine at this rate. There is a bigger deficit. What is the government strategically to address that gap? In some countries governments are paying people to go and study cyber security. Because they recognize that we need to fix this problem. Secondary schools encouraging and getting kids to say, you know what, if you go into uni, we are going to pay. Government is going to fund your uni so long you are studying. Do you understand? Are we doing anything strategic about training a new set of good guys? Otherwise, what you continue to have is that there will be more young boys coming out of our communities. And the people that can combat them. Education has a big role to play in the area of education as well. If government can tackle those big ones and of course the very other big ones that are under government control law enforcement. We said that when we begin operation we will be bringing evidence to law enforcement at very amazing rates. We can't force them to move on those things. That's true. So if government is serious about it, we can give you and give you data. This is the IP address that was involved in this and we've been able to trace it to this person and all of that. We can't go and arrest them. So we need government to do that. Government needs to do that. The cyber crime act is sufficient. It's not the act. It's the enforcement of that act. And when you talk to law enforcement people because we have to speak to a lot of them, they complain that we are not properly funded. We don't have enough resources. So if they don't have enough resources again, maybe we're expecting a bit more from them. Okay. We have a comment. Okay. So this is from a regular fan, Daniel E. Blue. He says, good evening my dear beautiful sisters of what are you saying? Cyber fraud prevention in Africa that's the topic for today. Cyber fraud is a very rampant and popular crime in Nigeria and has landed people in trouble in problems. To prevent cyber fraud and to expose people who are involved in it, your guest made mention of people losing their heart and money to cyber fraudsters which is right without any shadow of doubt. I would suggest that any cyber fraudster be reported and made to face the law and brought to book to stop it permanently. I don't know if I am right or wrong. I don't know if I'm right or wrong. Also the government must build a collaboration which is what you rightly said. Why is it only my two beautiful sisters, Chinelo and Glory in the studio? Where are the rest? Daniel, you see the rest from Monday. Don't worry, from next week we are going to come back to having a full house again. Thank you so much, Daniel. Okay, so as I am working I must say that I personally have learned from our conversation from our conversation today and I'm really hoping that we continue more of this conversation because this is something that people actually need to be aware of and I hope that the government also plays a huge role also in creating more awareness about cyber security because as we can see media and digital collaboration is getting more per time. So following this of course we need to become more ready to tackle whatever problems it is that we face from cyber security for all the things. Thank you so much. It was nice to have you in the studio. We look forward to having you again some other time. I'm enjoying my time here. Thank you so much. Thank you Gloria herself for coming in tonight. Before we go do ensure you follow us on Instagram at Weshaw Africa, you can interact with us further, drop a comment and most importantly follow all our social media engagements. I remember to like, share, comment and invite your friends and family to watch us and follow us. If you missed today's quotes here it is again. I have been saying for years we are going to have to spend a lot more time on cyber security and this is what we are doing. See you on Monday at 8 p.m. I have to bring another great conversation. See you on screen.