 Glad to know you're still there and watching the breakfast on Plus TV Africa. Recently it was said that the students in tertiary institutions, I mean the ones run by the government will have loan facility. So student loan which is supposed to kick off in September. A lot of Nigerians have expressed concern over what the requirements are before you can get the student's loan. But the ASU, that is the body of lecturers that we know in universities, said that it is a trap, so to speak. And especially the ASU president who is Professor Emmanuel Osodec kicked against it and said there was a trap somewhere and he was not comfortable with it. We're glad that this morning we have him in the studio. Oh right, joining us for this program today to talk about his misgivings about this new student loans law that has been signed. And we're glad to have you. Good morning Professor Osodec and welcome to the program. Thank you very much. Well there were a lot of applause from very many quarters when the president said he had signed this into law and they went ahead and said it will kick off in September. But you had reservations about this law. Tell us more about why you had these reservations. Thank you very much. What we said, you know the press, what we said, what I said is very well clear. But for this law ASU needs to get a copy of the law so that we can analyze it and then address the problem. That is what I said. I also said that but if I talk about student loan in general, that ASU does not support student loan as trying in the state of our country today that also does not support student loan. The reason be that in 1977, sorry, in 1972 a loan was established, people took loan and many did not pay, another happened. In 1993, the military set up between 18, the ASU has established a student loan bank. In the last two years, I collapsed and nobody got loan and that is our view on student loan. And we tried to push it during the last regime as part of our agreement with government and we resisted it and that is not part of our decision. But if the parents are comfortable with it, if the students are comfortable with it, what is what? But for union, we believe in a country like Nigeria today, it is better to look for alternative sources of funding education than loan to students of the very poor in the system. And there are alternatives that as a country, if we put our best brilliant together, we can generate a good alternative of funding education rather than the loan. Okay, but the layman will just say, okay, I have opportunity to get money to get me through school and that is through that loan. So why do you think, first of all, that this loan facility that was started in the 70s, they tried it again in the 90s, why do you think it failed in the first place? Any question you should add with the government? The second one failed because it was not given, the money was consumed, but the law is there and the report of the committee was set up is there, the report is there, you can look for it, you get it. Why did it fail? It's there. Okay, well PTA, the national body of PTA, the parents teachers association are also skeptical about this loan just as you are because they fear that it may lead to increase in school phase, which they do not want. And then federal government announced last week that this Tuesday a committee would be meeting, as they set up a committee, inter-ministerial committee by the government to fine-tune the student loan bill. And ASU is part of that committee. Let me just read out some of the committees for our viewers. ASU is part of it, NLC is part of it, the Nigerian Bar Association, Vice Chancellor's Forum of Nigeria University, Rectors of Polytechnics, Provost of Colleges of Education, the Minister of Education, Minister of Finance, amongst others, are going to be part of that committee that will be meeting on Tuesday. What do you look forward to as you meet on Tuesday to fine-tune this loan, this bill? Well, like I said, we're not aware that we are there, we're not consulted, we're not berating, nobody have told us. No, I wouldn't give you a copy of the law. So that is it, so that's why we're consigned. It's still a, it's still a, it's still just something that we're not being told, we're not consulted and we're not berating till now. So, and the copy of the law has not been passed, so that we look at it comprehensively. So ASU is totally in the dark, that's what you're saying from what you can understand. ASU is totally in the dark. We're not told, we're not going to be in that, in that committee. We are not berating till now, the copy of the law have not been sent to us, so we're in the dark. That's serious. Okay, you talked about, am I quoting you or somebody else, but this talk about the fact that right now there are no tuition fees paid in schools. And this law will come with tuition fees. Make us understand more about that situation. Well, what I also said is that when I look at the copy of the law, the unsigned copy in the social media, there is somebody that this bill will be used solely for payment of tuition fee. That's what I saw. That's why we need to get the original copy, no matter whether that is correct or it's one of the social media news. When we get it, if it is true that the law will be used solely for payment of tuition, and supposedly there's no tuition in the Federa University, we mean there's something that's not there. Wow. Well, I read a report that the Permanent Secretary, Federal Ministry of Education Andrew Adejo, disclosed that higher institutions cannot introduce tuition fees because they do not have that financial autonomy to do that. Is that correct? Correct. Please come again. That the Permanent Secretary, Federal Ministry of Education Andrew Adejo, he disclosed that higher institutions do not have the right to increase tuition fee because they do not have the financial autonomy to do that. Well, I've not got that. But until we see, like we said, we need to see a copy of the law. We need to see what's in the case, what are the indices, how much is the cap, the highest a student can get, and the lowest a student can get. We need to get one of them before we can really advance. We view it as a union of quality. We take this job collectively, not by individual work, not by me as a president. We take it collectively. So when we get it, we look at it and then come with our view on it. That's the size, but we have not got it. Okay. At least you've brought this angle that it's possible that whatever is on the social media may just be a copy that is not the true copy, a certified true copy. Yes, when you have that one, maybe the conversation will change because you will have more information to that regard. But you did say that if left for you, ASU, and the other people, stakeholders, alternative sources of funding universities should be sought for. What are some of these alternative sources that you think that the Nigerian University can be funded from? Thank you. In 2018, when we were meeting with government on how to implement the agreement in 2018, the committee was set up to look for alternative sources of funding education in Nigeria. And implementing our agreement with government, that committee will help a professor named Professor Musa Ligibri, and I will serve in the committee. I will come with the number of them. Some are being implemented today. For example, about this stamp duty, we talked about having support from the federal account, or first line charge, and we talked about these bank charges, these charges you have on stamp duty, and we came with the number of them. That if these ones are harvested, the weight it was harvested for the issue of tax fund, then we will absorb both of these programs. But good enough, if that thing in the social media on this bill is correct, there is also, guys, a good alternative to sourcing education. Funding education, which is one percent of all the money collected by IFIR or IS, collected by its customers from Minera and Waterview. If all these are harvested and put together and well managed, it will grow. It will grow, just the way that tax fund is growing. When you tell me federal university to the state university, what you see is tax fund. So if this one is where it is also, rather than using that as loan in a bank, let's put a technical team together. We assure this money goes to the Nigerian traditional system. So that is the first question. To ensure that it's well-funded, not loan. Because even in those countries, US is one of those who promoted this loan team before. But today, with the hashing, with the way those who took the loan are passing through the Bicorps period, the president, the big body, is paying back the loan or some of those who took those loans. To relieve them, you can check. It's there, it's there in the news. So to me, which way for where we can encourage Nigeria, encourage the children of the poor, who don't have access to good sort of fund, who are also not sure of getting an employment rate in Nigeria is that 3%. In America, it's 3.17%. So when we do student get the loan, get enough money, get a good job, and pay the loan within two years as stipulated in that thing as in the social media. So if that is the truth, it will be better to look for substantive sources. And if the federal government puts the consortia academia, put a strong thing together, just like we did it in 1994, that is a very tight fund, we will do to get alternative sources that will generate funds to fund Nigeria in the basic system. And they will not encourage these children of the very poor, who spend, like I said yesterday, in less than a bar of rice in the month. All right, I am particularly concerned that ASU is not part of this discussion. And highly alarmed that you have said that this inter-ministerial committee has been set up, which we have been told that ASU is part of, ASU has not been officially communicated. The meeting is supposed to be holding tomorrow. Today is Monday. What does this pretend for this particular discussion and bill? And indeed, the education system is set in this administration. And in answering that, is it that there are factions in ASU, because if ASU is there, and then you, as the president, has not been informed, do we take it that there are factions of ASU that might likely attend that meeting? There is no faction in ASU. We have one ASU, so leave it together. We are not berating. I don't think any ASU, nobody has berated, and our address is unknown. Does this have to do with the problem that's going on between the federal government and ASU, with regards to the strike that took place in, you know, last year? This may not be so. This may not be so. We have no single problem with them. We don't have any problem. If you watch out, the person who tried to see how the issue could have been resolved, during last administration, is the president chief of staff. Even the president also intervened, and there got many issues. If you watch it, the chief of staff called on to number 4, 5, the president, the chief of staff called on to several meetings to ensure that this issue are resolved. So they are aware. So I don't think we don't have any single problem with this president regime. And we are waiting patiently on how we can meet with them and discuss and resolve all the issues. So I don't think we have a problem. Maybe, but we don't know. We are still waiting. Okay. When you were talking about alternative measures to fund education in Nigeria, you used a word, well-managed. This money can be harvested. And if well-managed, in your opinion, what will constitute well-managed? Well, our own idea is that for issue to be well-managed in Nigeria, as you have seen, that they have to be accountable. Stakeholders have to be present in a body that will manage that fund like we did in need assessment fund. If you watch out, the need assessment fund was taken by the two Gulagunata regime from TETFON. One year TETFON was taken from Gulagunata era. And go to universities to go and look at what we have done with that one year from TETFON. Compared to what TETFON has done over the past 30-40 years, you will see the difference. Because in the need assessment fund, all the unions involved are part of how this money is spent at the university level at the federal level. And that's why you see. But at the TETFON today, it's opaque. So we believe that there is a need to have a team. If we agree based on negotiation, then the money will be better spent. And not what happened with 1972 loan or 1993 loan bank. Well, as it stands, the president has signed this bill into law. And they've set up this inter-ministerial committee. They're going on with this. How is Asi going to respond after tomorrow? As you want to say, that's what we're concerned about. We don't know whether we are on that team. So when we are written and we have access to the bill, our union, as a union, we meet, look at the bill and they make a proper response. For now, all we are discussing are just we're discussing because we don't have access. I don't know whether they also have access to the law. Okay. There is this need for funding education in Nigeria, especially tertiary institutions because of what you going by what you have been saying to fund education, to fund education, to fund the tertiary institutions, what really are these very, very crucial problems that if this administration wants to face education, maybe like the first three things that they need to do to put you on a good pedestal. Well, all this is also the public preview. You can go to any universities today. You see students hugging on window and taking lecture. Students sitting on bed floor and taking lecture. You have a laboratory where they used to as one simple, you have that equipment, that environment. You see students leaving 16 in one room and so forth and so on. So the infrastructure has decayed. The infrastructure is not growing with the rate at which the number of students were admitted that it is growing. So that's one of the critical problems in the system. And what we challenge this from all the government in the past that look, if you build the university of, you still have these students from outside this country. I pay T-shirt fee as Preto Ghana, Preto and also they will not be running away from this country. That is one, two, remuneration of the lecturers. That is also a critical issue. The university is universal. You should have that. Not at this point. It shouldn't be at this point. Well, it's unfortunate that we've lost the audio. We hope that he will return to talk to us on the issues that are bedeviling the university. Okay, go ahead sir. We do have that mixture of staff all over the world. You must pay comparatively remuneration to the lecturers. Such a way that you can attract people from outside. Let me tell you, in the past six months, we have lost not less than five to ten than professional lecturers from this country who have gone to other countries. Because today, a professor in Nigeria ain't less than $500 a month. Mewa is a good place between five to ten dollars outside the country a month. So that is it. So there have to be good remuneration for the lecturers, for the staff. There have to be infrastructure where we can do competitive research that even the industry will come to the university to do their analysis, to do their research that are going outside the country. So that the government also comes to the university to look for solutions. As we demonstrated during IPPIS and our UTAs, we demonstrated that we have to go abroad and pay heavily to companies on how we should pay salary. When we can do a better one in this country. From this IPPIS, we have paid so much money for in recent times, and what have you, are sure that we will be right that these people have gone outside the country. So we need the first tutorial of great men massive too. We need a better remuneration for the lecturers and three, we must stop this so-called what we call it, proliferation of universities in one day, we will start with 37 universities. The question I ask myself when I heard that who are the lecturers that go to lecture in those universities? We are not going to degrade the professor because by MUC standard you should have professors, senior lecturers and lower lecturers for you to have accreditation. So who are going to teach in it at the 37 universities? Most of our lecturers who are have left the country. So we have to stop this proliferation of universities. The same thing happens at the state level. Sustainable for five universities. Well you cannot fund one. So those are the things that we need to look at correct and then we move forward and become the general general of Africa that we call ourselves. So having students from Benin, from Togo, from Ghana from abroad, come to them and say where? That is the way to go. I will not be draining money as you are paying to other country. There used to be this migration to Nigeria to study. In those days people were coming to University of Ibadan and so many other universities in Nigeria. At what point did these tables turn? Where did we get it wrong that things began to deteriorate up to this level where our people find it easier to run away rather than stay? Because if the laws were there everything was there in those days and the conditions were good enough for people to come. Where did we get it wrong? We got it wrong when we started neglecting education. You can check our budgetary system in the south. During the era of Bafin Awolowom in south-west he was giving 30% of his budget to education. In the earlier part of the military he was giving between 10 and 50% to education. They started dropping. Last year it was 3.4.5. 4.5 you can check. Scale down. When we started giving very little attention to education and then these first such one in UI in those days people were coming from Saudi Arabia to attend UCH. They were coming because they have all the facilities they have the staff. The environment was good. But today what do you have? People didn't have headache and they run abroad because we have given a lot of that to go. Especially doctors who have framed with our money have left. All you have are those who are very patriotic inside and the younger ones who are just looking for money to move. The same thing with the academics. So what I am saying is let's go back to the old days and we pray that this government will give at least 50% like other Africa countries to education at 4.3. Because that is the key to all the sectors that you have in the country. And now the case you had with the federal government the industrial court has ruled that in favour of the federal government that no work no pay against ASU. How is ASU responding to this? You see you know with my surprise but I didn't impressed that you pick one issue and you have preferred I eat and leave the rest. If you have read that judgment I can send it to you if you want it. See that if the employer and the employee agree through negotiation to pay you can pay. That is what he said very clearly. You can look at it. We also talk about IGPIS being illegal to university but the president look at that. It was very clear that our strategy was illegal. The judge also said very well that we should not be punished for being on a legal action. So that is the thing but we just pick that. That is why we are privileged to have you here to give us this information first time. So what more information what next with from ASU with regards to this? What we will do we will meet we pray the new government to put it together we will meet look at all the issues out of court in the interests of the United States. Okay sometimes Yes go ahead that is also indicated in the judgment by the judge. Okay well this is a little bit away from that sometimes when people talk about the fact that universities or tertiary institutions need to be funded. If you are especially talking from the side of government they usually say that universities should generate their own income and not go cap in hand to the government and all that. What are the things that are hindering this university I know you have mentioned it but for emphasis what are the things that are hindering the universities from making so much money that they will be independent because right now we do not even understand the level of independence that the university system has. What we have is autonomy and autonomy is where defined by the Miscellaneous Act what it is. In detail the government will not be out of it they all can run the university disappointed by the president as visitor which is government counsel. To the university already generating money let me give you an example the running cost for unilater ABU, UNM what they get from government as running cost per month is about 50 million what this university first generation university get from running cost per month then by generator all of the running cost is just 50 million maybe by the cost of buying diesel alone in unilater we will not be let at 200 to 300 million a month so we will cater for the assets in the extract two where we were students where we were school, university beautiful students and all that so universities already generating a lot of money but they have a lot of industries and bureaucrats university is forced to pay 25% or big little money the collected from students here and there to federation account and all the ventures all that pressure university is not a continuity agency that will remit money to federation account we do not have money anywhere in the world so that is the system the cost is already being shared but we are saying that for the government try and do your own by giving at least 15% of the budget to education rather 4.5% as you have in 2022 that is it so when you said that universities you are also saying that in the best way that we can attract consultancies we can attract research grant knowing that you have a good laboratory have clearance from all the ministries and everywhere doing the most the majority for them using the principle of the triple helix relationship between the government the university and the industry that is what you have in the Asia that is what they are doing if government have any issue the state of the universities you better provide a program for the industries so when we get to that level this issue of funding will not be an issue if you can establish the relationship this triple helix relationship as the government at the top so that is what we have been preaching let's have this relationship you don't have to run to anywhere to look for any solution go to the university and get your brain brain and that is what the developed countries are doing if you have a problem go to the universities now brain drain and two we should ensure that in firstly we have the up to the standard you have in the world I am a soy chemist and there is something I work on mineral, mineralogy, that is looking at the type of mineral we have on our soil that would not have problems with our water quality, I work on it well any time I am doing analysis I think we learn the scientific and I am charged which we can develop this land on our own here there is no one that was working in Nigeria until recently Maru Muzahiyah in the university we were going to establish a country with no other one in this country I have to put the staff in to do my analysis is that right can we have a good appreciation of the level of damage that the brain drain is having on the university system today as you speak we just cannot sum it together I can tell you for the next time there is no university, standard university we don't see Nigeria later there is no country we go to today in the world we don't see Nigeria later when I was a student in my department in the state university we have lecturers from 5 different countries teaching in my department somebody from Poland, somebody from Sri Lanka somebody from Senegal, somebody from Ghana and Nigeria teaching in one department today we are going to look at 90% of lecturers in the university is from the state when the university is located I think that is our problem so we have learned so much you know there was a king and I will not mention his name he called me we are giving more age to America and Britain I say how is that possible Manu let me explain to you every year we lose our doctor we are going to have money we lose them in drugs they leave this country to those countries free of charge they will pay their effort to go and treat the student the patient is there taking care of the system that we lose thousands of lecturers to this Britain and America to go and teach after using our money to train them and I agree with him and that is what is happening but when we rectify our system most of these are lecturers we come back the good ones here will be retained and we can move there for now to come and teach in Nigeria universities and in this university university to our university system so are you comfortable with the level of autonomy that you have or what more can be put in place to make sure the autonomy that you are supposed to enjoy will translate to all these things that you are talking about how you can make your money and stand on your own and make the government even rely on the university system describe your level of autonomy right now your autonomy is already there the problem is implementation and your problem on the autonomy law as when explained by the judge the nondutch airport president that for example bring a IP to the university see later because the law stated who will pay the salary of academic staff and non-academic staff to the university is the government council but you are going to bring a student boy to be paying and today as I am speaking to you there are always so many of our police the foreigners who were managing to be here have left because the cost of adjustment of minimum wage more than 30% of our members have not been paid because if you have an issue in Sokoto you have to fly to the facility so that is one too you also have this equation today for a vice chancellor to appoint a professor the head of service will give a proof of that when you have that when the law is very clear on how to be recruited so today when you go to the university if you want to award a contract to build a toilet they say you must go to what do you call it to get a plumber to get a plumber so is that how the university is run but all that was not captured in the autonomy law right the autonomy law is very clear that the finances of the university will be managed by the finance and general proposed committee of council that is there what is great with the law has been so brutalized that the council has become just the council so you have autonomy but you do not have financial autonomy there is financial autonomy financial autonomy doesn't mean that you have to provide 100% the national assembly is autonomous is it not is it not autonomy where does the money come from do they generate their money the money comes from the financial account the judicial is autonomous is it not do they generate their money they want to come from the financial account because they have federal agencies just like the universities are federal agencies with a law that has been signed by the president that you have your autonomy based on XYZ condition it is not the federal government just like the national assembly before the government the government so we will talk about how you generate your autonomy the law will be very clear on how you run the university implemented its problem there is so university in the world where you have university generated that money where you go to the university who are looking at how much the state put in as 8 to the students as 8 to the universities so when you go to Germany everything is free you can check free education in Germany in Netherlands in Sweden they will pay the parents to put your side in the school issues many we now understand why the jacoa syndrome is getting out of hand now everybody wants to move they are working everywhere else it is such a shame we apologize that we have to digress from the student loan and now talking about ASU and the university system itself it became inevitable because it is interwoven it became inevitable because it is interwoven so what next is the question what next so maybe we throw that to you professor in closing what next what net is very clear and for some of us we have belief in this present leadership as well as the president where we strike the other issues where they try to intervene even the president try to intervene so they know the issues and we believe they also believe in education so our own idea that we expect us to meet with them set up a technical committee that will look at all the issues and for all restore the dignity of Nigeria university system once and for all so this so called jacoa syndrome last year within the first six months and last year this country pay 600 million euro to retain as tuition fee if we put that in the system we absorb all the problems so less and I believe this government will do that they will meet with us as patriotic Nigeria and resolve the issue of Nigeria university not just Nigeria university but college education so the government will revamp them but we will revamp these three levels of education because they are mutually related it's just unfortunate that is this presence chief of staff that brought the bill that has been sent into law about this tuition fee that we are talking about that student loans that we are talking about and it has been signed by this president but it's good that you have so much confidence that they love education I just seem not to be able to marry the two that the person who brought this law we are kicking against now is the person that will have solutions to our educational system I don't know what gave you the confidence like I also said we need to see the real law two if you have people with open mind if you have passed a law you can amend the law if you have people with open mind and you have made you enacted a law and signed and you found out there are issues with it you can amend it that's where you have national assembly that was passed by the last regime night assembly we are in the church assembly okay I think this is where we would like to thank you so much thank you you too well in case you are just joining us the program is the breakfast and we are glad that you are there but this thing we have been talking about these are some of the provisions in this law we are talking about in this law in item 14 applicants must have secured admission into any Nigerian tertiary institution or vocational school established by federal government or state government and you must be less than 500,000 naira per annum before you can access this loan applicants must provide at least two guarantors and each guarantor shall be one, a civil servant of at least level 12 in service a lawyer with at least 10 years post call experience a judicial officer or a justice of peace and you can be disqualified if you are proven to have defaulted on a loan given by any organization non guilty of examinal practice by any school authority convicted of any felony or any offence involving dishonesty or fraud you have been convicted of drug offences or any of your parents as defaulted on a student or any other loan these are just some of the provisions of that law but like professor Shedekke said it is possible that these unsigned ones we are seeing might not just be the authentic one if ASU gets a copy we are sure that we also are going to get a certified true copy that will have the signature of whoever should sign it and then we can talk with more authority and maybe tomorrow because ASU the federal government announced last week the setting up of this inter-ministerial committee and that ministerial committee is going to be meeting tomorrow on Tuesday so I imagine that more like to be thrown into this they have been set up to fine tune the student loan bill that was recently signed by president Bola Tinibu well we will just take a short break and when we return we will be going to other issues stay with us stay with us