 Hi guys, it's MJ, the student act tree, and this is another edition of actuarial discussions. And with me today is Tiffany. She studied actuarial science at Tux University. So yeah, Tiff, welcome to the interview. Thank you very much, MJ. And I'm just thinking for this chat, why don't you just explain to us why you wanted to study actuarial science? What drew you to the subject? Well, so I always had a natural inclination towards maths in high school and did the whole ad maths route and math paper three and all that. I was also very good at accounting and IT, so those were also some options. But I wanted to pursue a career and a degree where I could be challenged and I could delve a bit deeper into mathematics. And the whole actuarial pathway seemed like a good route to go. It seemed like not many people went that way and yeah, so it just seemed like a natural fit for what I wanted to do and where I wanted to be. And you mentioned here, I mean mathematics. And that's definitely something that we do a lot of in the undergrad subjects. But in the work that you're doing now, how important is mathematics to an actuary at your level? So I would say it's quite important because we need the foundations of mathematics in order to make informed decisions in the workplace. We need to be able to, if someone questions methodology that we use who isn't mathematically inclined, you need to be able to explain to them or you need to be able to sort of think outside the box and to think outside the box, you need your firm foundations. And that's what maths does. It gives you the firm foundations and it also helps you to prepare you because it's a really tough degree, it's a really tough profession. But you also talk about IT. How important do you think IT programming and all those computer skills are to actuaries? So I think they're really, really important. Something I've noticed when I started working is that a lot of the older actuaries don't have the skills required, such as even basic SAS programming. So they're relying on the new analysts that come in to have some programming knowledge in order to carry on because they're stuck in Excel, they're stuck in access sometimes and there's a big need for someone or for people in the industry that can both program and do other professions. So I think it's super important. I myself am going to stop learning Python when I'm done with my exams just because I know it's going to broaden my career prospects even further. And you mentioned Python. Why Python over, say, Java or Ruby on Rails? So Python seems to be what majority of the people that I have networked with are using. It also seems to be when you get all these advertisements for job offers and all of that, Python is always on the list. So that's basically it. I think it's becoming one of those basic skills like Microsoft Office was 10 years ago that you need to learn. And you also spoke about something called SAS. So I remember I had a job offer and it was going well until they said, do you have any SAS programming background? And I was like, no. And then they're like, thank you very much. And the job offer passed. So can you talk to me a little bit about SAS? I mean, I'm very interested to know what exactly is this, how difficult it is to learn to use it for. So SAS stands for statistical analysis software, I think. So basically it's very similar to R except that it is quite old and it's quite expensive. So corporations favor it for some reason. There's also a legacy issue because a lot of the prior models and processes are in SAS and it's quite a slip to move everything over to the newer programs. So SAS is actually a very easy programming language to learn. And it's not finicky, it's not too tricky, it's easy to debug. So it's a common favorite. I really enjoy working in SAS. And mostly, if you're working with large databases and stuff, you use ProxEqual and then you use SQL code within SAS. So yeah. And Tommy, have you ever wanted to program, say, an application or an app for an Apple phone or your Android phone? Has that ever appealed to you? So it may have. I have been a bit preoccupied with writing exams and studying and all that. So I do have a lot of friends who are developers and a lot of the work they're doing is intriguing and I would love to be a part of that. And that's also one of the other reasons why I want to start learning a programming language other than the functional programming languages that we use. Yeah, so it's all about what is going on at the moment. And that is where we're heading. We're heading into an environment where everyone needs to know how to make an app. Everyone needs to know at least the base knowledge so that they know what's possible. And yeah. And how do you feel about specifically here in Cape Town? I mean, my brother was just talking to me about a salary survey that they did and how IT developers and programmers are earning significantly more than people in the financial sector. I mean, and one of the big draws to actuarial science originally is, or one thing that people are like, oh, actuarial science, is these or are the high salaries? How do you feel about programmers getting paid more than actress? Do you think that's a trend that we're going to see continuing or do we see the actuarial salary dropping some more in time? So I think it depends a lot on where your inclination lies. They're two very different career paths. So for computer programming, I mean, you get your degree, you get your honors, perhaps master's, perhaps PhD, and you sort of make your way in the world. And it's a brilliant skill to have, and it's definitely in need. But with actuarial science, you've got your degree, and then you've got this whole pathway of exam you need to take. And I think it attracts a very different type of a person. And I think there will be some people who, the way it appeals to both of them, and they are swayed to computer science. But yeah, I don't think that the salary will be a huge consideration if someone is having a choice between computer science and actuarial science, I think. I don't think it will matter to them. Because I must say the one thing that I think is still very attractive about actuarial science is the fact that we have this professional body. When an employer comes to employ someone, you say, I'm an actuary, they can be like, well, prove it. Let's go to the asset database, see your name there. Okay, great, you're a fellow, you're certified, come work for us. But with programming, you don't really have that. Someone says, I'm a programmer. There's no professional body that says, yes, this person can program in Java or this person can program in Python. So a lot of employees say, well, what work have you done before? But it's so easy to go online, copy a bunch of code, stitch it together, and then pass it off as yourself. So do you think that's something that the actuarial profession does have an advantage over all these other fields, all these other industries? Is the fact that we do have this professional body governing us? Do you think that's a big advantage? Or do you think like some other people I've spoken to who think that it's unnecessary, it's unnecessary to get your degree at, say, a university and then write even more exams to get into a profession. You should just get it straight away. Yeah, so I think it's, there's two sides to the coin. I think having a professional body, having a professional body sort of regulating a sector helps with a lot of things. It actually, I think the actuarial role is so crucial to so many different sectors in this country that we can't afford to screw it up. And I think the regulator is there to help us to ensure that doesn't happen. So they want to cover all the bases to ensure that our reputation is actually the sound and we are fit for the purpose that we are supposed to be doing. So what I'm getting at is if we just allow anyone to become an actuary who's just left university, there's no backbone to ensure that this person is going to do the best and most fit job that they can. Whereas with computer science, I think there's a lot less writing on their opinion and their work. Not that I'm saying it's likely. Fair enough, I mean. But I think that we, we're in a riskier environment. No, look, I think you're 100% true on that one. We're actually, we have this massive responsibility, especially when you're overseeing a massive pension fund or just the reserves of the life insurance. You know, these funds go into the billions of rounds. But coming back to the profession, I know that we, we really have voted for the, the council and you have, you were one of the candidates to be the student representative. Yeah. Yeah, maybe can you talk to us, what was your, why did you want to do it and what are you hoping to achieve when you get elected? Hopefully, if you do get elected. So there's a few different reasons that are quite related. So I was having conversations with one of the qualified actuaries in my company and he was very involved with Asaba and working with the council. He might have been on the council before actually, but I won't say his name now. And basically he was saying that out of the pool of people that start studying actuarial science, the pool obviously starts diminishing by the point you get qualified. But this pool, there's a huge difference between, say, white males and then females and then people of color. And it's actually sort of people of color, females, they start falling off the pool a lot quicker than, than white males. And it's all like our country is, is, is shrouded with this inequality and different backgrounds and that sort of thing. But so there's something that we're missing in the equation. There's something that we are, we're not preparing students for, the ones that aren't, they, they don't have access to the skills and the knowledge sets in order to pass all these exams. So how do we empower the students to pass their exams and, and ensure that they actually get qualified without getting disheartened and, and leaving, leaving the industry? So yeah, that was one of the, the big drivers in why I decided to. And also there's, there's even speaking to other student actuaries, there's a lot of people who are frustrated by the process. A lot of people get disheartened. They don't understand why, you know, why do they keep failing an exam? Why did they fail an exam five times? And the, on top of that, you have this huge divide where if you're not a qualified actually, then you don't get any of the good work. And this isn't all the cases. This isn't, of course, this is, I have noticed it is a trend though, where there's this big divide. If you aren't qualified, then you, you can't be part of the big projects. You can't go to a managerial level. Whereas. If you've got that profession or you've got that qualification. So, but, but then there's this huge divide and people get stuck in their careers. And then you get these people getting job turn or leaving to go to a different industry or going to another company where the divide isn't so big. So yeah, I think there's a big problem with, with, with exams. Do you think we have maybe too many exams? I don't think we have too many exams because there's a lot of scope for the, to get exemptions at university level. I do think that there's unreasonable expectations put on students by employers. For instance, you do get a lot of leave. You do get certain benefits for passing exams or for study leave and all that. But you also have to work at the same time. And you also have to, you know, it's basically taking, say someone else, a computer science graduate and chucking them into a position and then telling them that they have to write two exams twice a year. It's, it's sort of, it will drive you insane. And it's, it's a difficult process. So this is. We are actually, I mean, we're notorious for, for not having a, a social life. Yes. I mean, I remember when I was at Boots, yeah, I didn't spend a lot of time outside of my, my little study, study nest, call it a nest because there was food was there, the little blanket was there. You kind of, you eat, sleep, study, repeat type of up. I mean, yeah, it's going to be quite interesting. Once we do qualify, we're going to have quite a lot of time on our hands. How confident are you about, because I mean, we both wrote the fellowship now in October, but I know you did very well in your mock exam and I didn't do that well. So how confident are you of passing this fellowship exam? So touch wood, because these things are always, they always subject to this random white noise. But I think, so that I had a quite a big advantage because one of the questions in the exam was directly applicable to a project I worked on last year. And so that also comes back to the point where experience helps you pass this level of exam. So I think I'm feeling quite confident in that. However, I know it's not uncommon for people to take two or three times to pass this exam. So I'm not getting my hopes up, but I do feel quite confident about it. And then there's the next year, there's just fellowship if 101, if 102, if 100 levels. The specialist subjects. I still have one of those left. Oh, so one of those to do? Yes. Okay. So I still have that left and then the work base skills, all the admin surrounding that. Yeah, so I'm confident and I don't know what I'll do when I'm not studying, I actually might do my master's. No, you can't go back to studying. Because what do you do if you don't have exams to study for in May and you don't have a master's? You have exams to study for in May and November. Well, yeah, that's the thing. Yeah, that's so. We're socially awkward now. We like, oh my gosh, we have too much time. Yes, yeah. But I'll tell you what, let's call it because how long have we been chatting for? Cool. We've been chatting for 70 minutes. Okay, you want to take a break? So yeah, let's take a break and we'll do another chat soon. Thanks so much. Cool.