 I don't think we're live on the YouTube channel. I have a message saying that we are live. Maybe we are just now starting to go live. I'm not sure. But it says we're live. Give me a message in the chat if we're live, guys. Okay. Now, I think, okay, now we're good. Now we're good. All right. So welcome to modern day debate. I am Kaz. We're debating should we affirm trans identities and we're starting right now. We have April and Polly and Art versus Sean last in Alex Stein and shape. Each person is going to get 60 seconds for their opening statement and then we're going to go into 40 minutes of open discussion. First person tonight is going to be Polly and Polly. At your first word, I will start your timer. All right. Thank you. Hi, I'm Polly. I am a trans woman and I'm going to argue that there is absolutely no reason in the world to not affirm trans identities because we exist. We've always existed. That's just the way life is. You can't erase trans people any more than you can erase any other type of queer person, lesbian or gay. Moreover, every scientific slash medicinal society doctors agree that we exist. They agree that we should be treated and affirmed as we are as who we are. And so, you know, when you have a bunch of people who have existed throughout history and who science and medicine say should be affirmed, there is only one argument against doing any of that and that's they are a trans vote. So, I look forward to debating my existence to people here today. All right. Thank you so much, Polly. And then after Polly, we have who did I have next? A, Arc, I had next. Arc, at your first word, I will start your timer. Well, I'm just going to say I'll make this simple. I'm going to save the M.O. for the actual fight. Let's just bring it on, guys. I'm ready to have this argument. Alex Stein, shapeshifter. Sean, let's do it. And, yeah, let's hear what April has to say. All right, April, at your first word, I'll start your timer. All right. I think it's really a question of two competing values. So, on one hand, I think there's a reasonable social expectation that you don't speak your mind at every moment. There's a necessary part of social harmony that we can't have a functional society without. And we can't have people constantly fighting each other and debating people's identities at every moment. So, I think that you should affirm identities when basically two criteria are met. One, when the request is reasonable, so you're not being asked to affirm that someone's like a shark or a star or a deer or something. And then, two, when the environment in which the request is made is such that it would create a lot of issues. So, like, you shouldn't be asked or, like, you shouldn't be asked to affirm that someone's identity is just under people at work and, like, start debates and that kind of thing. On the other hand, I don't think that people should be forced to call trans women. She, if, like, they fundamentally disagree with that values-wise. So, I think there's tension. And there are circumstances where it's good to do. Sorry about that. All right. And shape your first, your one minute. Okay. So, I'm a detransmit. I don't think kids should be transitioning. I should definitely be a higher gatekeeping for people who want to transition as adults. I've been definitely victim of affirming surgical care. I think the model we have right now, affirmation, only is extremely dangerous. And it should definitely change, hopefully, in my opinion, in all the next few years. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much, shape. And Sean, at your first word. Okay. So, broadly speaking, my perspective is that transgenderism normally is a mental illness involving the defect of the mechanism by which people generate their sense of personal identity, such that their identity is not fundamentally based on observations of what they currently are. It's caused by a combination of socialization and the sorts of genetic defects that tend to produce all sorts of mental illness, affirming their warped sense of identity is a bad idea for many reasons. We can put those into three broad buckets. It leads to worse male outcomes, probably, for trans people, for cis people. And because it increases the number, probably, of trans people in future generations. So that's probably the outcome. And Alex, at your first word. Probably, he's doing a lot of work. In my name is prime time $99 sign. And, you know, honestly, I believe socially, we should be able to call whatever people ask and whatever pronouns they want. But I think, you know, like, you know, medically or illegally that we do have to have a dictionary definition of what a male or female is. And I'm not saying that trans people don't exist. Like, probably, you exist. No 100%. But like taftash, I used to think that the idea of trans is that you wanted to fit into the opposite sex without being known as being trans. So I think trans has become a third thing on its own. You know, it's become, so that's where I kind of find where the attention is negative. It's almost like you're not actually going all the way to the opposite sex that you want to be by claiming to be trans. So for me, it seems counter intuitive. It's almost like, if we're going to say there is the trans people, which I believe that there are. I just don't know, you know, how they should be affirmed legally. We should have a trans division because you have people like Leah Thomas, who is a guy who is now competing against women. They should have a trans league. So I'm all for having that third division. But I don't know how that benefits society. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much. And before we go into the open discussion, I just want to let you all know, especially if it's your first time here on Monday debate, that we are a neutral platform hosting debates on science, religion and politics. I want you to feel welcome no matter what walk of life you're on. If you have a question or a comment from one of tonight's debaters, fire into the old live chat and be sure to tag me at modern day debate. Super chats will go to the top of the list and all we ask is that you keep it civil. Attack the argument and not the person as insults will not be read. And that goes for the general discourse in the live chat as well. Our guests are linked in the description below, whether you're listening on YouTube or via the podcast. So if you like what you're hearing, please feel free to check them out. Hit that subscribe button because we have plenty more debates coming your way, especially tomorrow at eight, we have a apostate prophet versus Mohammed. They're going to be discussing Islam at 8 p.m. So be sure to check that out. Subscribe, like all that good stuff. And with that, we will go ahead and kick it into the open discussion. Guys, there's a lot of people on the screen. So please give each other some deference. Please try to give everybody some a chance to talk all that. And I will let you guys have the floor at your first word. All right. Well, shit, I don't know where to start, but can I start with shape shifter? Like, are you anti-trans based on just your own personal story? Because science and medicine, like I said, say you're wrong. Yeah. Well, I'm not anti-trans, but I feel like a lot of people that are not trans going to be victim of this movement because they're going to sing their trans because of, you know, feeling not comfortable in your own body is that feeling never went away no matter how much I modified my body. And I just found out not that long ago that I had body dysmorphia. And a lot of these transitioners, they realized they also had body dysmorphia. They weren't born in a wrong body. They just had to learn and accept their body as it is. So your answer is yes. That's your own story. That's your own story. Shape shifter. Like personally, I don't think that transition was like the best decision for me necessarily. But like now that I've come out of it, like, I don't see any reason to de-transition. But like, overall, I really do try to warn people of like the enormous cost that comes with it. But just like before we get into the discussion, I want to just try to define things for people, right? And the question of like, should we affirm trans identities? This question really is asking like, should we treat trans people as the identity they claim to be? And is that like a reasonable interpretation of what this question is? Can we all agree on that? I just want to know if anybody's going to rely on science and medicine or just stories and prejudice. No, almost everything I'm going to say is going to be based on data. Okay. Well, let's hear from somebody that has any information at all besides just... I went to medical school in Guatemala, so I'm coming from a doctor's perspective. Okay. All right. Sounds good. I can agree with what April said as far as like the what we're framing the conversation as. I think that it's fair to say if someone's trying to transition to the opposite gender, then we can affirm that if that's what they're doing, then we could label them as such. I think that's like a fair thing for what they're asking for. Treat them as such. Of course. Affirm it publicly and also treat them as such. Yeah. Because I think that like there just seemed to be like a little bit of confusion. I wasn't quite sure how Alex was necessarily interpreting the question. I wanted to make sure that we're all on like the same page before we continue. Yeah. I'm still not sure. I mean, we're not on the same page. Well, no, just about what the question is. To be clear. Okay. All right. All right. I think the question would be better phrased. Are trans people real and do they exist? Because if we're real. Everyone. If there are trans people exist. I don't think that's even close to the question. Well, hold on a second. Let me explain why. Because if you think I'm a mentally ill man, that's not it. That's not my like essential identity. Like, like I am a woman. Like I really am. And if you don't think I am, you're saying that I'm somebody else and that's, that's the same thing is saying that I don't exist. Are you an actual woman or you're a trans woman? I'm a trans woman. See how you said that? That isn't itself. Why you're, you're, you're. The way you phrase the statement assumes that I don't exist because you're like Polly, if you're a trans woman, then you're not an actual. I couldn't tell. I couldn't tell that someone has multiple personality disorder and they start identifying as say the Pope on one day. If I deny that they're the Pope on denying they exist. What? No, you don't. You're just disagreeing with their self-perception. Right. Yeah, I mean. What about trans species and trans species exist? If somebody identifies as a lizard or a dog, probably not. I think we should affirm those identities. There's no evidence. So like, again, it's just why we have to think we should affirm that. No, don't affirm that. You're just making stuff up at this point. Right. Yes. Okay. We shouldn't affirm that because that's just delusion, right? But like the question of what counts is like a woman. I don't know. I'm kind of trans species. Okay, go ahead. Something you can debate and you can reasonably like define categories of gender to include like more or less people. And there are like gray areas. And so I think that like it's very different from something that is like totally impossible. Like saying you're a wolf or a star or something versus having a slight disagreement about the background. No, Sean. It's not impossible, right? It just depends on what kind of language it is. Well, Sean, I have a question. They just say it's impossible. They say, well, speaking of impossibility, they used to always say it's impossible for a man to get pregnant. Paulie, is it possible for a man to get pregnant? Yes. How? Is it with his penis? Or have a baby? A baby will come out of his peel? Transnude's can get pregnant and transnude's can get pregnant and transnude's can get pregnant and transnude's can get pregnant and transnude's can get pregnant and transnude's can get pregnant and transnude's are dudes, my guy. I know you can't, you know, you don't like that reality but it is reality because we are who, are you your brain or are you your dick, right? You think, does your dick talk to you? I mean, maybe it does. But I get my... Mine does. Who I am and okay, well then well then that's because you're kind of a freak. But like I... I am a freak. Because my brain tells me so and I can see that. You know, you got that vibe to you. But... You know I'm a freak. Me on the other hand, my brain tells me who I am. And so... Do you still have... I don't have... Do you still have a male penis? Ask your mom. What? My mom passed away recently but how would she know? Did she really have sex with my mother? You had sex with my dad? Yeah. Dad! Last night. Dad! Any other questions? Have you really... Did you... Did you give my dad anal or did he give you anal? Both. He was... He was all about it, my guy. He's like... Did he pay it? My son is a loser. Did he pay it? But you're a real woman. Not with Sandy what he says. A loser? My son is a pathetic loser is what he said. And I heard you outside and you were crying but it was so sad. He says that everything's giving in front of all of my aunts and uncles and I just said that I'm fine. I ate pumpkin pie. I don't really love my baby boy. I just have to pretend to. But so... But you answered it so you don't have a vagina. My dad wouldn't have to give you anal if you had a vagina so you answered it. Oh, that's true. That's true. That's true. You have a moderator, right? You mean I am the anal moderator? I'm the anal moderator. This is important. This is what you were talking about. Yeah. That seems like a major topic, right? Well, this is what we should affirm it. I mean, what do you guys think about this? I mean, do you not feel like if you're at a bar or at a dark bar and somebody can't tell that, you know, you might be a trans person. Do you feel obligated to tell them that you're trans? How big is your dick? It's not the question. Is it in any... Oh my God. It's not that big. It's hard to... Soft? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you can ask me what's in my pants, I can ask you what you're packing, right? Okay, I know, and I'll tell you. So you tell me, what do you have? Do you have a, you know, a wound that you should have to keep open with some sort of suction coming in? Or do you have a male genitalia? All right. Can we move on from the genitalia discussion? So just to totally pivot, I think if you look at the data, on suicidality, what it broadly suggests is that probably the optimal position for someone who feels a sense of gender identity, which is disconcordant with their sex, is to feel that sense of disconcordance as long as they have to, but to not actually engage in any kind of transitioning and the doing so predicts a worse outcome because of their suicidality. I mean, yeah, there's a lot of suicidal people and there's a lot of people that are dealing with mental health problems outside of the trans community as well. I mean, are you just, I mean, there's a lot of soldiers that deal with this issue as well. So I mean, where I would come from it more along the lines of is like, as an American, like I think our, one of our base values here as an American is freedom and people should be free to do what they want and if they want to be called something, I don't really care. I think that they should be able to be called what they want to be called, treated as the way they wanted to be treated and you know, this is suicidality. All the research suggests, all the research is suicidality is like pretty inconclusive. We have based on what? Jesus Christ. Yeah, we do. I'm like, on trans mortality and they don't really show a clear, like a clear improvement with people on HRT. But what we do see is like more evidence towards like mental health improvement. So I think that if you're going to argue the medical thing, there isn't like a ton of good data on trans HRT and affirming healthcare. But what evidence we do have does point to the the fact that it's probably at least not harmful. It's beneficial overall. But I think the more interesting question the American Medical Association, every single, every single major medical science. Because this is because this is not as this is not as a question as you think. Each of you to finish your points. I'm not going to say. Okay, all right. Okay. I'm sorry. The last thing I heard was April speaking. I'm sorry. I heard April speaking. That's the last thing I heard. And then I'm not sure. I do want, I want to hear his response and go back and forth a little. Because this is interesting. So there have been quite a few studies quite a large number looking at the association between different kinds of transitioning and suicidality among trans people and what the aggregate of that research shows is that the suicidality is higher among people who have leaned into this transition and lower among trans people who have not. There's no chance that that is true. Yeah, not really. No. There's literally no chance that's true. Look, look, look, this is such a clear. There's a medical analysis like in all of them and doesn't find a clear relationship. Okay. But yeah. There is enough practical medical science plus data out there that every major medical association, every sort of scientific association that passes on these types of issues puts out a statement to avoid arguments like this saying affirm trans people. Trans people are who they are valid and they are the gender who they say they are. Just get fucking on board if you have not. It's just because you're a science denying flatter. I don't think we should get bogged down into the serious argument though because the suicide is where we have the biggest evidence. Okay. But I haven't heard from shape in a while but I haven't heard from shape in art. So guys, I want to ask a question to Paulie and Taftaj. Sorry. What's your name? Yeah. How do you guys feel about the fact that Marci Bowers who's the head of WPAS or president something like that plus she's one of the known surgeons who's done thousands of the surgeries, bottom surgeries came out of the state and recently that the kids and to us that take blockers and later estrogen will never experience an orgasm. Do you think that's really authentic human experience orgasm? How do I feel about one story about some surgeon that does not comport with my own experience or any of the study? Hold on a second. I've had bottom surgery notwithstanding what fucking Alex makes up in his own head because he imagines my giant big time but yes of course I can. It is such it is such an obvious thing that will happen is that my surgeon didn't really like like says it's you know like it's almost like 90% of the time can you get pregnant bottom surgery now can you get pregnant? What? Can you get pregnant? You know what uterus transplants are probably around the corner in which case I know I know you want to impregnate impregnate me so badly No No Of course not Can you get pregnant? Can you get pregnant? I would have beautiful children Yeah No because I'm a man We can address this like a little bit more fucking balls So I just say that like I'm getting bottom surgery to breathe out Okay Hold on Finish the point Shave shifter is literally lying right now So like Maybe there's some surgeon Well hold on Hold on Look it up Maybe there's some surgeon one random surgeon that says you can't have a bottom surgeon She's a bottom surgeon She's a person who set standards was a bottom surgery and you're a delusional if you think you're going to get uterus transplant after seven surgeries you could have I don't fucking pivot Okay The medical science Yeah that was the uterus transplant The fucking medical science on bottom surgery is so clear not even Taff is going to argue with you on that one You are so clear about it What's so clear about it? What's so clear about is bottom surgery again? Because it gets because you don't stop having orgasms they just become lady fucking orgasms You know that you have to put a dilator in there or else it closes Right? What? You have to put Do you have to put a dilator Sorry Do you have to put a dilator in your bottom surgery? It doesn't work Hey Hey Don't you wish you knew, dude? Dude, I wish I knew I know Okay I'm doing a documentary I'm doing a documentary so I do wish I knew I have to do my own research here I'm going to see some dilators going on Doesn't it close up doesn't it close up with that medical without that device? Is that true? I mean I mean if people want to know I can talk to them Sheep Sheep says it closes up He can listen to that I do listen to the dilator inside of me Does that Hold on Wait, stop I'm not sure if my mom's vagina ever closed up I don't think her stayed open Shut up, shut up I have a question Shapeshifter You said you drove with a fucking dilator inside you I did What did you do that? Because When did you do that? How long after your second revision because I promised myself I'm going to dilate so hard and keep this thing open I wish I would have stunted myself overnight Good for you and it still shut down no matter what I did and it had colonized Shapeshifter no matter what you did it would still close up even when you were that when you were that There is something about that story that doesn't add up because with a fucking dilator What? What doesn't add up? What doesn't add up? What doesn't add up? Okay Thank you What doesn't add up? Hold on I want to let Mark jump in there I want to let Mark jump in Yes Exactly Okay Thank you Michael because this is like we're looking at this metric of orgasms right but like are orgasms important to the human experience Yes Is it more valuable like if you have the option to have orgasms Yes but we also recognize that like if someone personally wanted to choose not to have orgasms for the rest of their life like if they want to be a celibate like if they want to be a celibate monk they're allowed to do that people are allowed to get a change with like no you can probably have children I agree with that I agree but I think that like also we're looking at this like medical procedure and I think that like if people want to choose to have this knowing the risks knowing that it like might decrease sensitivity I think people are free to do that so I think that we're kind of like off track here where we're analyzing like one value but there are other values that like personally I have for example like personal freedom right and so when these contradict I defer to personal freedom because that's a more important value to me than making sure that everyone is able to have orgasms forever So it's important to note that we're arguing about whether or not we should affirm trans identities and not whether being trans or having the surgery should be legal but I think that a more global measure again of well-being of well-being is going to be suicide rates and the suicide rates despite whatever the medical association told you in reality the best studies and the studies of the largest and most representative sample show that the suicidality is higher among people who have transitioned right and nobody told me that compared to their cis cohort no not compared to the cis cohort that is not the comparison I'm talking about I'm talking about comparing trans people okay so I'm talking about specific studies that you're thinking of but it's not even a comparison you don't know the comparison I'm making right the comparison I'm making is between trans people who have transitioned and trans people who have decided that they're not going to try to live out their felt gender identity that is the comparison I'm talking about do you think do you think these groups might have a slight difference between them though and that's that trans people who choose not to live out their identity might start out with less psychological need to do that and therefore more psychological help because that seems like a pretty good predictor if you don't need to transition if you can find you know flourishing and spiritual fulfillment in meditation or God or your community without transitioning you probably don't have the same psychological need aka dysphoria or mental suffering which would cause you to commit suicide in the first place he's talking about the study he put out his ass I mean I just think that the suicide portion of it I mean we're never going to get rid of suicide within this country over the huge groups that commit suicide I mean yeah there's a huge obvious issue with a lot of trans people and dealing with some issues along lines of suicide whether it's from depression or from other varying factors but I mean this is going to be common in a bunch of diverse groups across the country no matter what we do I just think it's a boring topic to like focus on the suicide instead of being able to say that we should reduce suicide what? of course no of course reduce suicide I'm not saying to not reduce that nobody told me that I would be more likely to kill myself after I'm all the information needs to obviously be given out and of course I I was not even told that I'll have to take hormones to the rest of my life and that's extremely fucked up of course it's fucked up that's fucked up yes and get my hormones or my osteoporosis will get worse okay but like like if that's what your argument is based on your own experience which sounds like if it's true it's not just my malpractice Jesus Christ look if that truly is not that's malpractice right so like I'm against malpractice I'm not for that you know I'm for gender affirming treatment that is not malpractice and so your story is the people who have been the I don't know who these other people are but medical science you know it sounds like you went through a shitty like ordeal and I'm sorry to hear that but again that's this is anecdote stuff and Alex is just back from dilating his ass so that's cool I am back from that wait I'm going to get just a session probably a nine year old old enough to get a hysterectomy no well I mean for what reason like cancer I guess sure you're talking about gender affirming no of course not of course not go back to dilating we're not here Pauly do not be like that because you're obsessing my ass I know a lot of ladies are obsessive you can get a dump in my guy I saw it when you were harassing AOC that was fucking sick you know you want some of this you want some of this natural male four and a half inches of hard rock it's harder than Chinese arithmetic you know that no but the dilation is a big thing because if you don't dilate it it will close up and then you cannot pee ever again it's a new whole theory okay so like here's the real story on you know inferior you poop out pee like this is what the pee comes out of your poop come on can we please get back on track come on I'm just answering the man's question here please answer it alright well what I was going to say anyway before I was before I was like cut off what I was going to say is that the suicide topic obviously is very important within the community but to the question of what the debate should we affirm trans identities I was saying that it's a boring topic to me in regards to affirming the identities well Michael here's why it's important because the question I think both sides at least Sean and Paulie would make the case that either affirming trans identities increases or decreases suicide so Paulie would point to the literature on trans affirming healthcare for example like HRT or social acceptance which social acceptance has a pretty robust connection to decreased like or better sense of self-esteem lower reported repression so this is like mostly surveys that we're talking about and then I should I think that Sean is pointing to the opposite and he's saying that well if you affirm trans identities we'll have more people who are identifying as trans and therefore more people at risk for suicide yeah so I think that is a topic as brought up yeah I mean I guess that can definitely make sense in that way I just I feel like we're just trying to drill this one part over here and I feel like there's so much more interesting topics within this with shape shifter like with what she or what shape shifter was saying yeah what shape shifter was saying I have a question for the panel which will be a bigger deal the day J.K. rolling passes away or the day J.K. rolling okay shape shifter continue more than Caitlin Jenner more than Caitlin Jenner yes I was just I was just you're getting you're popping off wait which would be the bigger deal I know which will be the bigger funeral bigger event the Caitlin Jenner funeral or J.K. rolling J.K. rolling is a massive beloved author his asshole in California come on dude Caitlin Jenner dude I can see the flop from here I wanted to talk a bit about because it said in suicide aside from it because the idea of social support was mentioned and that all of that plays in mental health trans people and the association there is actually pretty damn weak so for one thing my own attempt to look at this I went through 22 reported associations most were not statistically significant but if you look at the 2022 meta analysis this year that came out the correlation between things like experiencing people reacting negatively to you and things like this with suicidality among trans people was very weak it explained something like between 1 and 5% of the variance and suicidality among trans people and on top of that these simple associations are mostly non-causal probably we know from literature on bullying that the main reason why people who are treated badly tend to be more likely to commit suicide is because of genetics and not because of the causal impact of being treated badly yeah so I think what I've seen is that you can read some of these meta analyses and they'll say things that like the evidence is not strong that HRT increases like mental health or mental well-being for trans people and that's like in reputable scientific journals they say things like this like it's not strong evidence but like usually the reason is because of the methodology and sample size so like you can dig into some of these studies that are specifically cited and they will find like significant effects but because they're using like survey data and the survey is not very big that is like questionable in of itself but what we don't see is like a strong negative effect and so we like consistently see with admittedly positive effect which probably indicates that at the very least these things are not having a negative effect and that's pretty important for the trans health care piece and a good indicator that like at least for the benefit of the trans people that it is reasonable at least in some circumstances to affirm their identity I have a question I had to say is there a difference between gay data and straight data like all the data about gay stuff like the metagay data is gay data different than straight data like is gay data a little you know more dramatic a little you know with the facts is that the same as straight data which is just cold hard facts because let's just say this my gay uncle this is why my gay uncle he's thin but he doesn't like his real weight known he would lie about that even though he's already thin he doesn't need to lie it's a wild lie you're already a thin man but he wants that's what I'm thinking could the gay data manipulate itself into looking better because are they just lying gay data could be more self-conscious than straight data is that a possibility I think that is a possibility there's definitely a lot of similarities between I guess gay community and trans community and that's what scares me some of those kids that get suckered into medical transition or their parents seeing their chance or possibly just expressing gender non-conforming behavior because if your kid gonna be just a drag queen or a trans woman how do you know you know what I mean it takes time so that's why I don't think it's a big transition have you heard I know this is last thing I want to say have you heard that this is what they say are causing gender dysphoria is that they're giving children so this is how it works is there's two cultures of aborted fetal cells that are in every line of vaccines and one of those cultures is a male culture and one of those cultures is a female culture so they're saying at the early onset vaccination status and the epigenetics by giving it an opposite gender aborted fetal cell at that young of a stage that that is what is causing the gender dysphoria later on so do you think that that is possible that the cross-gender aborted fetal cells and vaccines could be causing the intake or increase in gender dysphoria and transgenderism I know my story I grew up in a sort of world country I never in line were you vaccinated were you vaccinated you were vaccinated with certain things I don't know I assume yeah I mean it wasn't like I wasn't born in like some like I was born in Eastern Europe it wasn't super like certain going to be in the vaccine yeah I must have been vaccinated well I don't think it's from the vaccine but I do feel like something did go awesome differently than with regular people I guess I know for sure I have a lot of mental issues and that were never tackled before I was given letter for the bottom after my bottom surgery all my problems will go away and I'll feel better but all my problems were still waiting for me after the surgery and I still had to deal with all my issues and traumas so like transitioning medically did not solve any of my issues and now I'm part of the trans community I mean one thing I've learned I was T.R.A. you know I was on the other side I was on the side like Poli you know I was like trans woman and real woman I live in Massachusetts so it's a very liberal I got a chance to dive into data from both sides I feel like a lot of data is biased on either side and no matter what data somebody throws on either side everybody disputes it right away but one thing we cannot hide is body count as time goes by and there is a huge way to transition as right now and just give it like serious some studies show that trans your grad really sets seven to eight years and that's what I've noticed I'm on the trans community my surgery was you know it took me seven years to realize that this was a huge mistake and I should have never medically transitioned and those trans kids that were transitioning right now give it 10, 20 years they're gonna come out with stories it was just a bad idea to get on Okay so let me ask you this shape shifter do you think anybody should get trans surgery do you think anybody should I think adults should be allowed I got mine at 24 and I saw what I was doing I saw I was convinced that was a woman in my penis if I wasn't convinced enough like in my mind I was like a woman you know and I was like that's why I let surgeon do it I feel like people over 25 should be able to do it I mean under 18 they shouldn't do it but like so your argument isn't about the surgery it hurts shape shifter hold on a second dude shut up for a second did it hurt when they cut off your penis you better finish your thought real quick okay so stop hurting yourself right now Alex you know I know the camera doesn't go that high and I know you like to hurt yourself but please you don't have to share your fetish with us thank you shape shifter now you're admitting then that surgery can be good for people right so it's not like everybody's surgical results are bad right I feel like it should be sold as a body modification surgery I got sold sex to a simon surgery and my sex is still male okay shape shifter wait hold on a second what okay wait hold on a second you're saying your sex is still male so wait you got bottom surgery or not I got the bottom surgery but it was at the time it was sex reassignment surgery it was never gender confirmation surgery I had it yeah but it was the same essentially shape shifter how often did you have to have it dilated dude holy shit god damn no I heard they close up quicker than the ear piercing from Claire's at the mall I can see the drool coming out his mouth your breast you're nice a great natural you had a very good job the doctor did a very good job on your breast I'm sure he did a very good job on the bottom but I'm surprised that if they did it was at the same surgeon because with those quality top knockers I would have thought that the bottom hole wouldn't have closed up that fast okay go ahead somebody like let's has anybody just come on please I don't care about what you're saying has anybody okay now I was going to let you talk to you said that now it's fuck you I don't care jeez okay I can't I even care I even care less about what you're going to say based on your so anyway the mods decide which of us can talk I'm going to keep talking alright I'm going to I'll let my guy explain trans issues to us I'll explain to you you were in the middle of asking a question and it was interrupted so I'm going to let you finish your question real quick and then I'm going to turn the floor over to shock alright so my question was all of these people saying you know there's something wrong with like a trans woman's vagina have you ever seen one you know have you ever like gone on to like a like a you know like a porn site you know like my guy you know like vagina technology is at a very high level now so you know you would not do that vagina tech vagina tech what are you talking about at what level yes yes I know if quit I know you want you're very interested I know you want one I'm just telling you you can get it and they look good and they work and the dilation requirements are vastly overrated what are the dilation requirements exactly can I talk about it for a second it depends how much you fuck which for you you'd have to dilate a lot wait what it depends on how much you fuck oh my gosh you only have 8 minutes left of open discussion I want shapeshifter to answer the question really quick and then I want April and Sean and arc to have a second to talk please I don't I just have one last thing to say when it comes to dilators dilation schedule literally every surgeon has a different dilation schedule how come this is not more universal how come they haven't measured how much depth patients can maintain over the years you know so it's just like they're making it up as they go it's real experimental surgery it's you Paul is sitting there and saying that it's safe it's functional it's not I know so many people that can't be normally now they're doing they're doing it and like a lot of the surgeons with big names they're just swapping it under the rug and a lot of people just don't talk about it because it's gender it's very private you know and this is not funny because a lot of people go into thinking that they're getting actual organs of opposite sex and it's not it's approximations that's what it is and sorry that's the reality wait shapeshifter you said you were pain No, I want to be respectful about this because it's a people. I know I'm Yeah, and honestly like he's open with his story, but like there is this detransition our tulip are It takes him 10 minutes to just empty And he's he's Takes me about 45 minutes to take a dump so I kind of feels pain if you know what I mean depending on what I Know what Polly what Polly I see up there. Why are you muted? No, no, no, no, no Baby girl Polly. No, April. Would you like to take the floor? I Don't know where we are We're talking about But yeah, so I mean at this point I'm at the if you can't beat him join him so Alex have were you vaccine does a baby? Uh, actually, yeah, you know what I had as a baby. I had the I was the first COVID baby of all time I would there's I had the first mRNA vaccine ever. So that's why I'm so messed up. You might want to go see Marcy Bauer I think she can help Because my mom's like big anti-vax Yes, you were it's half-tas you were vaccinated at some point So I wanted to make a comment So to make a comment about it is being said before that it is disagreement so I'm saying if you look at the literature it suggests negative effects and Taftier was saying that if you look at the Research that actually is unclear about if there's any change and obviously the people listening to this right now cannot go and Review the literature. So what I'm gonna make are some points about the interpretation It's even if what Taft was saying was true and I agree with that view of literature I still think that that would actually be significant evidence against these procedures for three different reasons So in the first place people that tend to get these surgeries tend to be older the people that have not got them yet in the Transcommetered tend to be more likely to be adolescents Which is gonna elevate their suicide rate in the second place if you gave someone a Suicide I'm not a suicide a sugar pill it would improve their mental health a placebo effect as we all know So if a medical procedure shows no effect on mental health That's actually quite disastrous and then in the third place There are several reasons to think that transitioning is going to lead to an increase in the number of experiences with Discrimination and so because of that even if it was a flat line We didn't look at it and say oh my gosh these of the the the procedure that has having such negative effects It's overcoming the impact of age the placebo effect and increased discrimination. That's not a good sign Even if that was the literature and again, we disagree on what literature looks like Okay, yeah, I gotta respond to that because it's not true that like the research is like What I said is that the research doesn't have strong evidence, right? And that's not to say that there isn't like a consistent effect. What we do see is a consistent effect Yeah It's not strong evidence because of the methodology in the sample size So like that's usually why you see these meta-analyses will say things that like yeah We don't think or we think this is weak evidence But it's not because there isn't a consistent effect there is and it does show like a positive benefit to mental health Okay, so I'm just gonna show you say I don't know how you can say that this seems so wild to me They are studied with tens of thousands of trans people showing the contrary. What is I mean? If you really yeah, I guess we're just gonna have to say we totally different views on what literature looks like I have no idea what There are practicing doctors that do this shit this it's their life And they know it works like for all of the stories that you hear from somebody like shape-shifter saying I know all these people that regret it. I know You know probably far far more people personally not just randos that I meet on my on my detransition website People I know in real life that tell basically the same story I do and that's the thing that medicine Medical science doctors and to the extent we've had studies have proven out that that affirming trans identities is good For trans people now if you don't like trans people that's that's different, right? And I think if you're against affirming trans identities it comes down to that You just don't like trans people, but that's a different argument. It's not as persuasive There's there's there's no there's no sufficient data to claim that we should just stop treating trans people anything else is fear 2021 meta-analyses that's what you're referring to right in the Journal of Endocrine Society Oh No, oh Okay, you're referring to a different 20 21. He's referring to something you pulled out of his ass I'm not sure what you know. I'll link it. I mean you get you can look at the stuff I'd cite is on my here. I'm an article about transgenders and you can look at the stuff I said you want to find the specific sources and talk wordpress the fuck Okay, we're all gonna read the study here. I see I didn't Keep Yeah, I know I know and you you give me a fucking blog get out I'd prefer the answer. Yeah, dude. This is a He's like, I don't know. I just read the blog it looked scientific. There's graphs and shit. No, I wrote it Oh Are you what are your qualifications? Mr. Last to pass upon trans issues? Are you a dog? I can read the research because I understand statistical. Are you a Doctor I know how to read a study but not at all go ahead This is the Have you poly the most poly a big titty poly you'd have you ever heard of Dr. Kivorkian? I Want to know Dr. Dre Dr. Dre is pretty good working was a doctor and he would kill people look you and murder people so not Surgery is one of the best doctors ever I Like science medicine I get to respond stories fear-mongering a weirdo who just pops off of it After he pulls a dialy under his ass a guy that can't read a study and says I'm a PhD What's weird? Pain us off is that Dog don't think you have any idea what you what's weird or what's not weird otherwise Penis I don't know what it's like to get a knife and cut off my dick Or pay somebody to do it even worse. I like to pop my own pimples must have cut off my own wiener Did they do long shears or did they use I'm just looking through these studies that Sean do it and like one of them is like it's brain dead 2022 Analyses and it says that finding support a relationship between access to GHT which was like HRT and whatnot and lower rates of depression and suicidality among transgender and non-binary you So I'm just confused by like your own studies and how they're Supporting you oh So, I mean Oh My point is I don't understand science. Don't you don't you get it? I cannot read So like the study that you link here seems to disagree with what you're saying and this is I think in your Can I go back to the drawing board there, buddy Sorry, all right, so I am just a little bit confused which study 22 meta-analysis I link is the one showing the I think that the correlation of point two four between experiences of discrimination and suicidality trans There's another one I just I oh is this not the pelican at all 2022 We really must be moving on so the guy's citing his own But I also one thing I did want to say is that if you actually read the article I explicitly say that evidence is mixed and what I'm doing is trying to wait the totality of the evidence So there are studies linked in there that do say the opposite of what I'm what is your degree that can do that though Now you're weighing evidence. Okay. Yeah. All right. Let's move on Okay So ladies and gentlemen if you have a question or comment from one tonight's debaters Please fire into the old live chat tag me at modern day debate super chats We'll go to the top of the list All we ask that you keep it civil attack the argument and not the person and with that we will go ahead and kick it into the Q&A Let me put on the timer real quick that's 35 minutes on the clock And we will begin our first super chat from sunflower for five dollars To poly and april if you had to give an honest guess what percentage of trans identities are rooted in an um I believe these are genetic er Zero t one c or Oh, no, you're right. It's erotic I know erotic fetishes or uh, the answer is zero. I mean 100 percent All right. Well, we just All right. Okay. Well, there you go genetic codes Ding dong anyways Made by jim bob for 999 if gender equals social construct and sex equals objective fact Then performing a surgery to align sex with gender is a performative contradiction as it assumes gender and sex have a one-to-one relationship Well, that would be a good example of what we say called begging the question because the premises uh are Are wrong the conclusion I guess follows from the premises that are wrong. Uh, good job chatter that is Uh, I don't even know how to begin to answer it because you don't even know what you're talking about Got it and from r for two dollars. They say prime time stein big booty latina slayer I love the big booty latina. I know we got a bunch of big booty latinas here. I got that bottom surgery so Good for y'all. I'm trying to make more big booty latinas paulie. Are you uh, latina? uh Wouldn't you like to know my guy? And from uh Aloysia for ten dollars. They say by definition Miners don't have the existential basis to discern between the concept of gender needs to be off the table Uh, okay, so here's the real deal about that trans people know who they are You know around the same time cis people at the same time what we know from science and medicine For example child development is that uh kids tend to know what gender they are around, you know age four five six It you know paulie if that's true, why why are more kids transitioning in la than cleveland? When I fucked him said seriously I want you to make me feel like a woman because i'm a fucking big Why is your disproportionate amount of people transitioning in los angeles compared to cleveland ohio if that's true because it's more acceptable there That's an easy one Put the biggie back in your mouth and shut up You don't even have Yeah Because of social acceptance, sure Gender is fixed so like there's no gender food people so People who sing there is the opposite gender you sing that will never change like I saw that with a woman now. I want to use my dick. I want to fuck a guy of sass and I can't so Look look again. I cannot speak to any specific uh individual story. I don't know you I mean if you wanted to fuck somebody that's that's fine. I'm sorry that that that you cannot write. Um Gender is are you a virgin shape shitter? Hold on. Hold on. Just come Okay, go ahead answer the question answer the question Are you a virgin? All right The can I finish my plan shut down before I ever it was able to use it so in that sense. Yeah Okay, so So if I could answer the question seriously like what we know in child development is Trans kids know who they are So like for example and we are acutely aware that society tells us somebody we're different You know, we're not like I was acutely aware. Everybody was telling me. I'm a little boy You know your boy boys have peepees girls have vaginas and shit like that and I'm like, but but I'm not You know, I don't know why and you don't have the words for it. You're a kid. It's it's a singularly Very very difficult like um it imagine what it was like if you're If trans people are real right see it is a Just just just think about this for a second think about if Uh, it is it does feel like and is in fact you're sort of born in the wrong body Like there is actual biological evidence to say that, you know Trans people have brains that are shifted toward the gender that we say we are And and there's psychological data that also says that what if that's true? You are basically like consigning people to like a a horrible state Which which of course is going to have a terrible effect on people's minds and you see that at the end And what we know is that if you treat children Uh early when it's obvious that they're trans. We don't just like, you know, we don't trans kids really nilly But if you if you treat what did you transition? Let me finish my point No, no, no, no, this is the last it's the last word that we're moving on age What age What we know is that the early What age Yeah, let's move on The earlier we treat children the they almost have as easy lives or as good lives, I should say Uh, mentally as cis kids the early That can measure how good a person's life is like that I'm gonna mute everybody. That's not even a measurable thing some survey All right bubble gum gun says for two dollars. What does a woman without women dna even look like? There's plenty of cis women that do not have women dna That's a question. That means you don't know what you're talking about There are cis women with xy chromosomes believe it or not that have a vagina that are assigned female at birth That that only know that they are uh, not xx when something else happens, right? So You know read a book All right from aliyusha for ten dollars. They say by extension unless someone has apprehended the existential experience of the opposite sex It is impossible to assume that identity. It's simply not possible to bridge that experience well, uh That's true in some respects. Like I don't really know that anybody exists like I don't know that People here are not actually ai on a computer, right? But we do live in the real world trans people have been around forever And so we can assume as much as we can assume anything I mean we could all be brains and vats, right? We could be in ai we could be in a simulation, right? You don't know however, there are things that work and things that don't work and affirming trans identities works All right and from brian witt for five dollars. They say does the panel think trans men or trans women would have an advantage in sports in general Observations there will always be variation across individuals, right? I mean, where are all the trans women that win we could point to anecdotes and I know trans folks like to do that They like to point to lea thomas and like clown on how she looks or whatever the fuck But if trans women had an I mean I mean I saw an article yesterday saying now They're like well, we can't get we can't prove anything else So we're gonna say trans women have an advantage in pool like billiards get the fuck out of here, dude Like like, you know that you're grasping. Where are all the trans women dominating? Hold on pretty I'm gonna explain to you why Uh, you don't understand the issue is because when you have to like for example me. I'm a big bone like, uh, you know You know, you know, I transitioned after puberty. So I have broad shoulders long arms, you know, I'm a uh, you know, uh I've got you know, what you would say a a biological advantage No, there's definitely a huge difference Let me finish my shit I don't have a beard, dude. Okay, just shut up. Okay. Look look look You haven't got shadow the reason why the reason why there is a not a I know this seems I know because you don't think about this Uh, the reason why it seems to you that that, uh, trans women have an advantage They don't is because once you transition and you switch the do have an advantage You're completely wrong. No, you're completely wrong. You don't know what you're talking about Okay, nobody wants to let me Okay, well then, okay the reason why I can say literally like one sentence and prove it to you The reason why they don't have an advantage because when you have the uh, uh the chemical mismatch You don't have the muscle power to to like move the big bones, right? So I'm actually less efficient of an athlete in many many sports than a cis woman is I you know, like I can't you know, there's There's no evidence to prove otherwise. Yes, there is there is evidence to prove otherwise I mean, I know you love stories. I used to be No, no, I don't have any stories. No, I have no stories. I can prove it with like one basic thing Bone structure of a woman and a man are very different from the hip to the knee The knee to the hip from a man the angle that it comes inwards. So women's Hips to knees actually come inward at a certain angle and because of that the force Generated by a man having a more direct angle to the ground They can actually generate like close to 30 percent more force just because of that So it has nothing to do with the hormones to back it, right? If you know, no, it's because of puberty It's because of puberty. No, no, okay. Look, it's the angle The reason why that's why men can kick so much harder Okay, if you have testosterone to back it otherwise you have a bunch of bones that are heavier That you don't have the muscle behind the move. Do you understand? No force equals mass No acceleration, right? So like no, you need to be able to you're wrong Pauline. No, no, I don't know I don't know Females have an advantage over trans people panel There's no, I'm sorry, honey We move on to the next question Uh, could you repeat the question? Uh, does the panel think that trans men or trans women would have an advantage in sports? In general observations, there will always be variation across individuals Yeah, so this has actually been studied there's this big meta analysis by the British Journal of Sports Medicine and they find that even 36 36 months after hormone therapy, there are advantages in values of strength, lean bone mass and muscle area in trans women and that's in the general populations that's not athletes If you talk to like any athlete people like you can go there's a great channel called more plates more dates People know that if you train in a testosterone and androgen rich environment over an extended period of time That is going to confer advantage to advantages to you even after you are no longer in that environment And that is borne out in the data and it's especially true for athletes who are actually working to maintain those advantages For as long as possible. So it's possible that the advantages disappear after more than 36 months But at that point you've sort of like locked yourself out of the competition by not competing So for most people who would want to compete in high-level sports There does seem to be an advantage in these key areas Well, then where are the big winners? There's not that many trans people Not even in the first place Not even in a In a professional MNA and we do have big winners like lea thomas, but like it's just an anecdote right like it doesn't Right because there's no because there's so We are we are truly With the evidence there's no better evidence than who wins shit So I would say in the first place. I agree that this is actually not good evidence No, okay So I would say in the first place I agree that there's going to be some biologically mediated advantage But also I think this is kind of irrelevant to the sports question because we don't let like really unathletic or weak men compete in women Sports either they're leads for women not for unathletic people So if you're not a woman you can't be in there and unless you were Well, obviously we disagree about what a woman is but that's what the issue is here They're not leads for weak people. They're leads for women Well, even if it was fair like let's say like a man cuts off his toes and is no longer competitive And like if he competes with them and he'll do worse than them That doesn't necessarily mean that he should compete within the women's division Even if it is fair. So like that is like a separate kind of conversation whether or not it is fair Okay, so let's move on from mario pissed off for ten dollars They say poly you don't have real science on your side Your so-called researchers are just appeals to authority and the new regime. How do you respond to that? that sounds like the kind of uh Solid argument that I feel like I would need to respond like, you know poly is there a flat around Got good question from aliyosha From from aliyosha for ten dollars. They say to assume the opposite gender is a recursive appeal to an arbitrary referent doubly so by affirming minors attempting to do this That's a lot of uh big words for being a transphobe You guys are really testing my vocabulary today, aren't you? All right from sudo nim for five dollars They say maybe we can identify people out of respect But if they capitalize on someone's mistaken i mistake on id Can we ask for a birth certificate to show biologies real? Uh, so let me say one one or two words about the word of biology So that is a word that is not super useful because it applies, you know it What biology often is with people who know shit about biology. It's whatever they want it to be So like for example if you think biology is is whether you have a dick or vagina that ignores all kinds of other things You know that may Can sign you to a different sort of uh biological status if you took the whole body So like I don't really know what you're talking about shatter to be fair Uh, however, I think if people lie about their gender identity that shouldn't count, right? You know You know, I'm I'm I'm not for fraud. That's what you mean Okay, and from aliyusha for ten dollars. They say the affirming problem runs afoul on the issue of blinding. I'm sorry binding consciousness I'm sorry You should be Uh, that I don't understand the question I'd have to interrogate him and like ask more about what he means Unless someone here knows what he means Binding Somebody wants to sound smart a lot of transphobes like to wrap their transphobia and in like a pseudoscience and and uh big big words The affirming problem runs afoul on the issue of finding consciousness Sick awesome Good take buddy That was actually funny Consciousness, I'm sorry, uh I agree with whatever awesome Brandon Hansen for 999 Affirmation is just a sneaky way to have trans people get dopamine because of their burnt out receptors trans can't get dopamine by by mouth right now Any more so people people get it by controlling normal people Yeah, so like this is how transphobia like Uh, metastasize into people's brains and turns them into it gives them like worms or some shit Like it's way better. It's just like if you want to be a transphobe Here's my advice to you just say fuck trans people dog. I think they're weird You don't have to uh, you know Make up science to make it to like prove your point because you're gonna lose if you do that because science is literally on our side Okay, uh from all the ocean for ten dollars. They say we are our own problems Uh, okay, I mean speak for yourself And from brandon hanson for 499 they say uh for april Uh, why do you change the tone of your voice if trans women are women? Wouldn't the voice you were born with be the voice of a woman? Uh, I changed the tone of my voice to sound more feminine because It's not naturally Gotcha from I like your voice I like your voice From king crocodile for two dollars they say please get alex out of here I'm not going anywhere with that hacky talking about i'm the i'm probably I I think I am the only Well, I mean i'm just saying this Go off my dude Well, I'm just saying I'm probably the only one that knows how to I've probably taken the most persecution as a trans person on this panel I you know, I've been you know, university hated on on the internet so And so if I can feel this way then I mean really and truly you guys should be able to you know kind understand this a little bit but You can affirm me you can affirm her you can affirm anybody But really it's all that matters is that when you look at that man in the mirror like michael jackson said I'm looking at the man in the mirror And that's the only person that matters In the mirror like so like I am an alastide I think he's weird You know, I could come up with a bunch of scientific As to why he's broken you know, I could put some genetic defect or something like that But you know, like I'd rather just say I'm a foe I think that hair dies died your brain a little bit. You say you should have used uh, not ukrainian hair dye I think it's melted your brain a little bit. Let me tell you something pauli. I want you to continue to get vaccinated I want you to continue to You know, you know, donate to peepoo to judge because that's what we need. That's what we need. We need more rachel avine's I think our military needs more transgender representation because i'm sick of you know Winning wars against the taliban. I want to start losing more wars. So I just want to say that pauli thank you You're welcome. Thank you pauli. I think you you says people are already losing plenty of war So that's cool. Thank you for thank you for indoctrinating our youth and getting people addicted to Yeah, yeah a hormone replacement at a pretty young age. I love it. Thank you From small time art for two dollars. They say is anyone open to the possibility they might be wrong Anyone of you? Yes, I could be wrong. I'm a hundred percent wrong Should be affirmed There is nobody more doubting of of like uh, the trans agenda if you will then trans people themselves because it Is a difficult thing to come to terms with and so if you get to the position Well because society gas lights us from birth to say hey, you're not who you say you are right? So there's it you know, it takes overwhelming personal and you know To some extent scientific evidence that you can look at every like oh god everything. I I know to be true It's actually true not with that. I am told my whole life by people like alex stein or shape shift or anybody else here That I don't exist You know including your own parents like parents gaslight their own kids, right? Conservatives are so brainbroken on this. They think Gaslighting Dude, you don't have to prove to me, you know gaslighting I don't want to hear from you. I'll hear you crying in the cut corner next time. I'm fucking your dad Okay, paulie. That's fine. I'll watch but paulie. Listen when I was a little kid I won't swallow the watermelon seed And the lunch lady said if you don't poop that out fast enough You're gonna have a watermelon grow inside your stomach and you're gonna die and I sat in class all day trying to poop all day And guess what that watermelon seed couldn't even grow. So she just tricked me into making myself try to poop all day So that is gaslighting. Okay, so I'm not gonna become a victim of that So you're not gonna be the lunch lady that tells me that a watermelon's gonna grow my gut And then I have to sit in the and I had and you know what? Kelly Baxter, she was gonna write me a note that day She didn't write me a note that day because everybody knew I was taking a long dookie And I didn't even have to go do do time. So it was so like like if you ever say anything about the mental health of trans people, dude That's like, what are you talking about? You need to just I'm a trans person. Are you making fun of my mental health? Are you making fun of my mental health? I'm saying dog You need some kind of All right. I'm a human. Do not do not mistrans Me do not yes. Don't dead name my species. Yes Let's let everybody else respond to If they want No, uh, this is an area that wants a high degree of uncertainty because it's all observational data and the samples tend to be non-random Because I wrote it in my in my in my wordpress article sick. Okay. Thanks, buddy No, I mean there is a lot of uncertainty. That's sure. There's uncertainty and everything brought us interpretation of that. Yeah, that's true So I want everyone who's listening to think really hard about what I just said and then try to imagine How dumb you would have to be to think that a valid counter to what I just said is what poly just said Imagine how stupid you would actually have to be to think that made sense Okay, from wizard from frobo wizard of frobaz for five dollars. They say I've found that anti-pronown Strictly binary bigots get really heated when I intentionally call them. They're wrong pronoun What will you miss gender somebody they get mad cast? Yeah, okay I just got mad you labeled me a dog and I'm a man Yeah, but look at alex. He's a fucking snowflake. You can just say anything too many he goes. He blows a stack I'm a snowflake No, I'm not a snowflake. I'm the fire that burns in the pits of hell next to satan's anus Nothing will put me out poly All right from Brian hands group for 199. They say I'll give it to poly she sure should she sure nags like a word That's true. You do have that down being annoying You're annoying, right? You're perfectly level of annoying. Hey, hey, you know what if we get gender and trans inclusive misogyny I guess that's that's something Thank you That's good. So trans Okay, wait, no, it's not okay. It is kind of okay And this is true. It's gender affirming. It's gender affirming Okay, uh from kevin mccoy for five dollars. They say uh just simping for shape shifter You have a fan out there Thank you And from gourd zilla first there gourd zilla 37. I'm sorry from for a five dollars canadian They say normal quote-unquote means to be in the majority abnormal. Well, you guess it they slashed that guy Chatter is new better. I don't understand what you're saying Got your super chat sunflower, but I'm not going to read that one. Thank you so much Uh from aliyosha for ten dollars. They say why is it acceptable to label people using a straightforward? existential or evolutionary biology argument transphobe What Why is it acceptable? I'm gonna do the quotes with the fingers. Okay. Okay. Why is it acceptable to label people using a straightforward existential or evolutionary biology argument transphobe straight for Oh, I see you're saying that. Uh, it's the question is like Why don't we just label people like the natural The natural definition that like most people use for man and woman, which is like based on Ability to get pregnant like fundamental chromosomes, etc And the reason why we don't do that is because people have decided that They believe that gender is a more broad philosophical concept that includes people who are not necessarily Defined by their chromosomes or whatever. So that's why well And also defining somebody by ability to get pregnant isn't a good way to do it either Because there's plenty of people that would be shocked to hear that their inability to get pregnant does not You know excludes them from one gender or the other I think it's a decent way at least for most of human history. Um People who could get pregnant serve an essential role in civilization building And so it's only natural that they would have a unique category made for them So stone age is what you're saying stone age is the way to go I mean, we still need babies And you get sure I guess I mean we should elevate people capable of Producing yeah, but what you're advocating for is like hunts or gather based on like baby making You know, you're saying women are baby machines Did you say hunter biden smoked crack cocaine with prostitutes a lot? Didn't that he does trans prostitutes as well as normal So he is actually trans inclusive with his prostitutes close the porn dude Close your window with the porn. Did you know that hunter biden saves your transgender? Do you like that or what do you do? What does it matter? It's fine Well don jr. He only saves the women. So don jr. Is a bigot at least Dude, come on now What? Don't you like that don't you like to charge you enough inside You don't you like that hunter biden spludges inside of trannies as well You like it I'm sure he likes twice twice as much next time my guy because you're such a fucking pain in the ass All right, alex time. They have a question for you from Cameron hall. They say for 199. Would you date a trans woman? Well as a trans woman I it is hard to date. I mean I it depends on the transition like um like if uh Like this is this is how it would work. I could date a trans person Fuck yeah, he says i'm a chaser brother No, paul I am transgender. I am transgender. So when I am alexandria I could technically date a lesbian that transitioned to a male then read transition back to a female All right, so we have about one one question for about each minute left. So, uh Just giving you guys a warning about that if you uh are sending your super chats in right now Soon I will be giving a warning that they won't they may not be read So But go ahead and send them if you want uh from uh kawani upstate for ten dollars They say does affirming trans identities merely mean you accept they feel like a trans like a gender opposite the norm For their biological sex most people interact with others based on biological sex. Anyway, so who cares? Well, I think I would take issue with that. You don't you don't you don't judge people based on their biological sex You just don't because you don't have to you don't be like show me your dick before I talked to you You you you interact with people based on their like, you know their nature I think affirming means you treat people as they wish to be treated So the question is should we treat trans people as they wish to be treated basically? Gotcha from uh g j m p t w Uh for five dollars they say if being a woman and being female are different things Why do trans women undergo surgeries to resemble females question? Is their brain torture them? Well and plus two words like that saying female, uh, you know, like I don't know how you're defining this shit So like yes taffs. I agree with you Because your brain is what matters your brain tells you who you are medical science says it's not a delusion And and unlike if it were then you would say no you would push people back in the closet And they would do better like if it's like, uh, you know some sort of psychosis. It's not it's actually your brain telling you You are so you got to change the body because the brain cannot be changed I have a question. Can I turn my butthole into like an ear? Nope. All right next question I got you you shit out your ear. I guess you fucking I'm saying can you Can I grow a third ear if you shit out your ear you need fucking help From r for two dollars alex drinking slash drunk Yeah, I'm not it's funny. I've been tired. I've been up since 4 a.m. And that's california 4 a.m Because I was in san diego hosting for oa in a week. So i'm tired and it's texas time. It's almost 10 o'clock What pauli? I feel the sexual industry industry. I mean uh chemistry between us. It's insane No, your head's already insane. We don't need to change your ear because your head's already up your ass Oh, you wish you didn't say my butthole And another insult from sunflower, which I will not read. Sorry about that. Thank you From potato junkie ate my hamster for 499 they say if men can have periods and women can have penises Why the need to prevent puberty slash have surgeries to alter those attributes? Well, this is why I was I was saying earlier on like what we care about is good results good good mental health and You know happy people who can function And it it turns out the the sooner you stop gaslighting people and telling them that whether they have a dick or a vagina Is is more important as to who they are than their brain the better results you get so acceptance and affirmation As early as practicable helps Gotcha and from miles kinslow for five dollars. They say hey guys shape shifter heard your story Wish you the best rooting for you to win Thank you Thanks Gotcha and from aliyosha for ten dollars. They say then why attack Attach phobia to it attach what Phobia, I think it's maybe a follow-up question to a previous question Can it transfer to get monkeypox or it's can only gay people get it The last question was about labeling people transphobe Well, it's a word with a definition I mean, I mean, I mean why do we have terms like racist or homophobe or whatever It's to point out people who have a prejudice against trans people Actually What is a person that loves it like, you know, like they loved like a person loves disney. What's the person that loves trans? You do dude. You're a chaser. Is it a tranny head? Is it like a tranny head? What's it called? What's it called tatash? A tranny lover like the what I was going to say trans amorous trans amorous You can find evidence that like a high disgust sensitivity is associated with homophobia racism And also like broadly conservative beliefs So if you trigger people's disgust sensitivity Like by putting gross smells up to them and then pull them on their viewpoints. They actually become more conservative So I think that like that is probably Without knowing that's probably has something to do with why we have like the homophobe and like transphobe label here because there is like this Like internal disgust response that we're capturing with that language Okay, so that is all the super chats that I have on my list right now I will read the next question But if you do have a super chat and you want to send it in right now, I will read it next From what question mark at modern day to make should trans women take birth control So you're doing filipins to feminize themselves? Because that's how I guess they do it in certain countries But yeah, like birth control is a part of it. So I guess they could but It's not good Gotcha and uh from not from renato hisaro Why are you in a hurry to finish this? I guess they're talking to me I am just trying to get through all the questions From john lorette What is a woman for the entire panel? I believe A woman has a vagina A man has a penis and then a woman is you know, she's I can't hear you pauli As a resident woman, what is a woman to you? Can a woman have a cock and balls? Sorry, I was busy Can a woman have a cock and ball Well the woman on your computer right now does so yes You I would just define it in terms of chromosomes. God, you want to know don't you? All right from wizard of froboz for five dollars. They say I would never what do you imagine in your mind? Well, thank you that I heard it's a really bad smell between your legs because it smells like an open wound That's what I've heard I imagine a very foul odor see triggering the disgust sensitivity It's arrival from from wizard of froboz for five dollars. They say I would never misgender trans folks I meant that people who are you who are against using preferred pronouns get heated when they are misgender Not as much though because because they're not used to being misgendered So you can you know like if you're a cis person you can you know like like uh You're not used to being gaslit and told that you're a gender that you're not so you can tolerate Misgendering a little bit more so it's not really a fair comparison But they do you know like if I were to refer to alex As a fucking bitch baby For the rest of his life, and I had the rest of society say that he's a bitch with his head up his ass And his dad is so sorry he was ever born He might get upset out of a bitch I'm a baby bitch with my head at my butt I mean I would rather be that than somebody to cut off their genitals and has an open wound for the rest of their lives Or their penis used to be All right, it's like it's like how I'm alone From Brian Hanson for 4.99. They say if I domestically abuse my boyfriend and then And then becomes a lady Can he go to a woman's shelter to get away from it? Yes. Yes, technically yes You can't go to a woman's shelter if you're not a woman. I I assume I'm not a lawyer What can I tell you? You can't you identify as one Now they have to be probably legally female Yeah, you can't just you can't just lie Okay, and that is all of the super chats. Thank you guys so much for sending in your super chats tonight That will be the end of the list there Thank you all so much for joining us tonight in this debate has been quite humorous and quite spirited I had a lot of fun I hope you guys did too our guests are linked in the description below If you like what you heard from any of our guests, please go feel free to check them out They're all linked down there whether you're listening on the podcast or on youtube So, uh, thank you to the moderators in the chat. Thank you to james. Thank you everybody in the audience if you sent in super chats Thank you very much The debaters you are the lifeblood of the show. So thank you again once again. Thank you pauli. Thank you shape shifter Thank you. Sean. Thank you guys. Thank you cas. You did a great job Really good job. Thanks guys. Thank you. Thank you So like it if you loved it sure if you want to spread and subscribe We've got many more debates coming your way And our speakers are linked below. Check them out. Do it now. Thank you again. Thank you everybody Have a great night and remember keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable Have a great night. Yeah