 You know every time I watch this film and believe it David and I have watched this film and Susan and a lot of us a few times I Am struck by the sense of shared purpose in World War two and just I mean from the footage from the interviews I should mention we did 14 interviews for this film We uploaded all of those interviews to the Library of Congress and what we they're kind of what I would call like legacy interviews Like poor Jim. How long did we interview you for like I think it was about two and a half three hours three hours and all of it actually just excellent and something we really wanted to preserve so we uploaded it to the Veterans History Project and they have the entire interview online for everyone to see for future generations to see and 14 interviews and I have to just say it was really an honor to listen to all of their stories. It was really a gift of this show so I Guess Jim, maybe tell us a little bit about how you're San Francisco native and and you know you hear a little bit of stuff about You you know some bombing really a San Francisco native. Well, you were in San Francisco at the time Was living in San Francisco at the time, but I was registered for the draft up at Placerville and I went into the army from Placerville But I was working going to college and working at a gas station on at 17th and South Van S here in San Francisco at the time it was a Independent station. It was actually a Hancock oil station. I don't know whether there's a station there or not now, but I haven't been back for Probably 30 years or so it's not far away. We could just walk up right just down the street a little bit and Actually when the war started When I got to the station that morning It was a Sunday morning and and When I got to the station the kid who had opened the Station was already there and he said have you heard the news and I said no and he said the Japson mom Pearl Harbor and That was the first I knew of it and Then there was a lot of activity in the city Later that afternoon and early evening and some of the streetcars weren't even running and We walked From 17th and Van S up to market Street. I don't know where he lived. I lived out on fell Street at 1840 fell Street and Walked all the way home And I'm Not sure how long it took me but But there were people out at the beach Shouting about that we were going to be invaded and also there were People downtown around the armory Trying to sign up or one thing another but I didn't enlist I eventually was drafted and I Had checked with in with my draft board when I went home for the summer and they said that I Wouldn't be drafted until I was 20 years old. I would be so I would be 20 years old in March of 1943 and As soon as March of 1943 came around I got a letter from the president to That letter from the president we've heard so much about right and I went to Went down to Sacramento and I passed the physical and got on a bus and Eventually wound up at the Presidio of San Francisco a Presidio of Monterey and Which was the Reception Center and got all my clothing and uniforms one thing another and Then after about a week there Was transferred by train down to along with Several others none from my hometown Down to a Training camp between halfway between Houston and Galveston it was a temporary camp called the camp Wallace and it was an anti-aircraft training camp and we trained on 90 millimeter Weapons and 40 millimeter weapons and then while I was there I had a number of tests and one thing another and I Think I Had an interview and they told me that I was eligible to go to Officers candidate school or that I could Return to college under the Army specialized training program and I elected to Continue my education and so I decided I I took the Army specialized training program Was transferred up to Camp Wallace or not Camp Wallace cap camp maxi at Paris, Texas, which was in the very northeast corner of Texas just about three miles from the Oklahoma border and We had tests and one thing another there and after 10 days or two weeks I Was transferred to Pasadena Junior College at Pasadena and That was I got there and either must have been early September. I think and Then that program was being phased out and I went before a board and they asked me And I wasn't really cutting it because it was Something I wasn't really interested in after I got into it because when I got to camp maxi I had Wanted to go into the psychology end of it and They told me that the program wasn't available in psychology the only only thing that was available was Engineering and I had our medicine and Dentistry and I didn't care for those but I wanted to get back Somewhere other than Texas I think so I said I'll take the engineering and that's where I wound up And I wasn't cutting engineering. They have one nice thing about being it It wasn't the Pasadena main Campus of the Pasadena Junior College. It was had actually been the John Muir high school And it was referred to as the East campus I believe it was a Pasadena Junior College and there were just soldiers. There are just GIs like myself and they had converted classrooms into Barracks and one thing another and and we were jam we had bunks you didn't have there were about 20 or 30 people I think in a and bunk beds double bunks in a classroom and It was an accelerated course and I was having a great time done in Hollywood though And the result was that I wasn't Making what the grades that they thought I should be making and I went before the board and They asked me what I wanted to do and I said well, I had a radio operator spec number Which I had been I had excelled and in the Morris code at basic training and I'd like to go to a back to the signal core and The major in charge of it said well, we can't send you back We can't send you to the signal core We'll recommend you have to go back to the anti-aircraft training and and you'll go out here to camp on out by Riverside and and That We'll recommend that you be transferred to the the signal core and I hung around the campus for about Three weeks I think before my orders came in and my orders and some other orders came in at the other time at the same time And I discovered I was transferred to the 104th Infantry Division on maneuvers at Camp Granite into California Desert Training Center So from the desert to the desert that I became a desert rat so to speak, but they were just finishing up maneuvers when I arrived and along with some others and A buddy of mine and not from from Pasadena. He was actually transferred there from from a University of Chicago and he was He wound up in the 104th Infantry Division too and he's still alive at In Miami, Oklahoma, that's where he had come from and I still Conversed with Tom every once in a while, but and We hit it off, but we were only there for a week or ten days at the most and then we were transferred to We got there right at the end of the Desert Training Center I think because I noticed the film says that it closed and in the early spring of 44 We got there at the end of February the division had just finished Maneuvers with another division. I don't know what the other division was and we spent Next week or so just policing the desert and clean it up where were they had been and and Then we were transferred to to Camp Carson in Colorado Colorado Springs Matt, maybe you could talk a little bit about that. I mean, it's interesting this desert a million soldiers go through there and yet Not a lot remains right? It's hard to see. I mean, yeah Imagine a million men out in the desert over a broad area But a lot of men and a lot of equipment two years and it was all designed to be temporary, you know It wasn't supposed to last or wasn't supposed to be your regular Established camp so it was all temporary but what amazes me is how much is still out there You still see these rock alignments. So you saw in the film There's there's traces of the training that went on out there Still there and you can still kind of get a sense of the the size and the scope and the breadth of the training facility It's really amazing What's the status right now of the desert? I know that they're trying to get you know some protection and stuff Of what you know, what's the status right now? Well, it's such a huge facility You know it spans three states So it depends upon what area you're looking at but we're trying to get the the entire Facility listed on the National Register for historic places now that doesn't mean the whole entire desert will be listed, but it'll be a Larger encompassing document that will recognize the significance of what went on out there and then individual places will be you know Contributing elements to that National Register district I Will say that when we're out in the desert with you You know it's like a little rock a tiny rock alignment Oh, that was a mortar. That was a place where they put their sub machine guns and really There's a need to kind of translate a little bit of what we're seeing you know and David was like Amazingly expert at that. He really picked up on that and talk a little bit about that David I mean and not only that all the great aerials that that you and Beto got I mean it was pretty amazing Well, you know the first thing I want to say is What a great? Opportunity was to work with Matt. He was our on-camera historian, but actually he was a collaborator Yeah in the in the program because he wrote the he wrote the monographs on the desert training Center He did the original studies. He crawled in and out and all over the the terrain out there and discovered artifacts and sites and locations and Created the historic Narrative from which we drew in order to craft, you know a 30-minute story and he's got a document That's I don't know 200 pages thick plus I just found out today that Matt found the all that historic archival footage of the DTC Very few people I would think have seen that it's not something that is particularly Well known and maybe not even of interest to a lot of you know history buffs who are like, you know hooked on the the action part of the The topic of World War two, but Matt found it in the National Archives and convinced the Bay of Land Management to Get that material in its highest Quality format and it's what Kevin and I relied upon so heavily in order to tell the story in a very You know realistically documentary way, so I really can't thank Matt enough for putting together the the Raw material from which we drew so much of the film and then of course being able to run around with Matt on location and begin to develop an eye for you know a Depression in the ground that could have been in an explosive charge or a foxhole or something or Rocks that were aligned in a certain way that you know according to his trained. I was a defensive formation It all began to make sense once you know We were all out there and we began to see what soldiers would see as opposing units large Opposing units in in many cases would approach these defensive positions. I mean they're war games, right? And but they were played in deadly earnest And so you would get Patton sitting up on what they call Patton's throne watching these war maneuvers and with his supporting officers making notes and evaluating the performance of these units and I think you know, what's so interesting is that The United States was new to this form of warfare what we call Blitzkrieg These mobile units tanks and artillery and Airplanes all working in a coordinated way, you know correct me if I'm wrong Matt But I think that this was the first place in the first time on such a large scale the United States Practiced in this kind of way in order to confront a Military the German military that had been practicing on this since the Spanish Civil War In the mid 30s. Yeah, that's right They they had had maneuvers in Carolinas in the Carolinas in Louisiana But there was nothing like the desert to really promote that realism. There was nothing in the way Nothing had to be simulated. They could do Warfare but everything except killing each other. He's live ammunition They did not have to simulate the the difficulty in moving over terrain and communicating with each other and running out of water You know fatigue of the man, none of that stuff had to be simulated So it was really unprecedented training center the real deal and I'll just add one more thing It was dangerous out there. Yeah Jim may have only spent 10 days doing what he did but typically the the units would spend what three-month rotations out there and They would get a full dose of what that desert and what that training had to offer and it was not pleasant The conditions were one thing. It was brutal. It could be equally cold as hot And Patton as we tried to make Claire in the film Set these Incredibly rigorous standards. He did he his feeling was that the closer they simulated the actual horrible conditions of combat the better Chance people like Jim would have in returning home alive And so guys would go out with one pint of water, you know and do 15 20 mile marches They would engage, you know in real active, you know dog dog fight Maneuvers, you know in planes People died out there people got injured. It was just the way Patton set this up and in fact it was sort of Patton's baby out there that set the standard for rigor and I don't know difficulty. Yeah, you know, he definitely knew that they were gonna lose men He had a famous quote I can't quote it exactly but he knew they were gonna lose men to the training But he said it was gonna be worth it once they got into combat And I think that really proved itself true with the units who spent the full three-month rotation there You look at the combat records of those units and they did very well when they, you know Did run into well trained and disciplined enemy units. So the desert really did Kind of everything up to combat training that these units needed Jim you talked a little bit about in the in our interview about the camaraderie that developed I mean a lot of times this was secondary training right after boot camp or whatever and that camaraderie had And you took that into combat, right? Yes, but you know we didn't establish Bonford and I didn't establish much camaraderie there with the other individuals because it was such a short period but They're right when they say that that the our hundred and fourth infantry division was fighting another division or on maneuvers against another division the other division was defending the Pail on pass and I Was told at the time that and sense that we were the first Division to ever take the the hundred and fourth was the first division to take the Pail and pass and Our commanding general was and the one who took us overseas and brought us back Was general Terry Allen who had been relieved of his command of the first division That fought in North Africa with Patton and then on in Sicily and he had been relieved of his command because of a disagreement and Came back to the States and was given the command of the hundred and fourth infantry division and and And There were yes, there were injuries to the division because Out of the ASTP program There were some In addition to the few of us that that joined it at Camp Granite When we got to Camp Carson There were some they had shut the program down entirely and there were some 2,000 or 2,500 recruits that came into the hundred and fourth infantry division from the army specialized training program because the 14 or 15,000 men that were part of the hundred and fourth infantry division had been reduced by that many due to Casualties in the field one thing another and Jim you had you had served at the Battle of the Bulge right not in the not actually in the Battle of the Bulge We were on the northern apex At a cross from the city of Durham on the Roar River We had we're fighting from Ocon to Cologne had just gotten to the Roar River when the Bulge took place and We spent the entire from December until they Push off in February On the Roar River right there spread thin but right there on the northern apex, but the Main fighting of the Bulge was to the south of us now There are I Think we were Were part of the Bulge because we were on the northern apex, but we weren't right there at the right center of it, right? But heavy heavy action nevertheless We got heavy action from we when the division went overseas We initially were assigned to the Canadian First Army Down in Belgium and Holland Helping free the port of Antwerp, and that was after the debacle of that of a bridge too far and We we lost a lot of casualties. We had a lot of casualties there One we were that was the the first actual combat that we experienced and and We were there about 30 days and then we were transferred from the Canadian First Army To the first US Army at Ocon and we relieved oddly enough the first division at Ocon who had Taken the town of Ocon Which was kind of ironic because Terry Allen had been the commander originally commander to take the first division overseas and 104th division is relieving the first division that at Ocon and then we were fighting We fought and there we we got to Ocon About the first week of December right around armistice day and It took us from armistice day While we didn't initially Combat didn't initially start. There was combat all the time but you weren't forging ahead and You're just kind of maneuvering for Positions there were hills that you were trying to take to push off charge cologne and We didn't get to the Roar River then from the entire November which was only a distance of maybe 25 or 30 miles actually but it took better than a month to get there What do you remember most about the combat? What I remember most is Is in Holland again? I was I was fortunate because I was a signed to a heavy weapons company and a heavy weapons company has 30 caliber machine guns and 81 millimeter mortars and I was doubly fortunate Because I was assigned to the mortar platoon and the mortar platoon When you go into combat The the rifle companies are out there on the point. They're the ones and Then along with them are the machine gun platoons usually and We had two machine gun platoons and one 81 millimeter mortar platoon the 81 millimeter mortar platoon is is Probably two or three hundred normally two or three hundred yards behind the the Where the the battle is actually going on maybe 400 yards, but never much more than that and So I Wasn't Shot at very often. I was shot at several times and by small arms fire But that was usually when we were moving up or something but what I remember most is when we crossed the Mark River down in Holland we crossed in the middle of the night at about 11 o'clock and The rifle platoons had already gone over and then when we crossed over We crossed over a little too soon I always felt because we never Got much farther than than maybe a hundred yards or so from the the Riverbank 150 at most and they opened up with an 81 millimeter Artillery piece or not an 81 million 88 the Germans had an 88 millimeter artillery piece that was devastating and They had us pinned down there because we had had gone Over a little too early and we couldn't set up the mortars or anything and and We were like ducks on the pond and the shells were coming in At a very rapid rate and And people were being injured and There were the the cries medic and and the mud and and debris is falling down on you And you're hugging the ground trying to crawl up into the Get all of your you can into the the iron and rasteel helmet that you've got on not that it's going to protect you But that's the feeling that you have that was the the worst and then from then on I think we learned to Do a better job fighting and one thing another and and I don't all we got cut off in a town of Indian just before we got to the Roar River and we're cut off there for two or three days and We weren't getting any rations in and and You're living with What was available to you in the field? We were we had actually gotten into the town but One of the Rifle platoons what happened one of the rifle platoons had gotten lost again We were moving ahead in the darkness and one of the rifle platoons had gotten lost and instead of of Not rifle platoons rifle company and instead of being in the Right spot at the right time to back up Sea company who had gotten into the town. They were actually in another village that belonged in another Regiment sector and when the support didn't come the Germans counter-attacked the the Sea company and our forward observer who was a At that time was a lieutenant canner's he was with Sea company in the building and they all had to surrender along with the captain of sea company and and a Lieutenant of one of the rifle platoons in sea company and we didn't see them then until the end of the war when a German prisoner camp but The thing I remember about combat really was the baptism of a fire really A couple of days before the the mark river crossing when we got some machine gun fire and and a little bit of Whether we're mines and some small arms fire, but it was particularly the mines and the machine gun fire and we lost our Sergeant of the mortar platoon because he he was wounded in the heel by a bullet at that time How many in your platoon? Kevin before we follow up with that, you know, I think it would be interesting to have You know Matt say one last thing before we go to questions about how these kinds of Realist these actual combat experiences were brought back to the Desert Training Center and they would They would adapt their their training in such a way to make it completely engrossing and encompassing so they would pull back What all of their communications all of their command and control all of their Logistical support and these guys these units would be out there on their own in these vast vast areas Encountering, you know Simulated enemy units as well as the train. Can you talk a little bit just a bit? Yeah, definitely, you know I think Dr. Porch talked a little bit about that how the Germans were so successful at combining all the different arms They were really good at using the infantry and the tanks and the air power Together and we weren't so good at that. So that's one of the first sort of broad things They tried to emphasize in the Desert Training Center, but they also had in the beginning of the American involvement in the war in North Africa. They had observers There and they were bringing combat reports back and bringing them to the training in the desert and applying those to the more the smaller unit exercises so it was really kind of being molded and Evolving as the training was going on you have to give them army credit for that that they were trying to respond to the real conditions in the war and So it's kind of like a laboratory. Yeah, I think so and I one of the things that they noticed was The key for the young lieutenants, you know being able to take initiative on their own And that's one of the things that they really focused on in the desert They wanted them to have the confidence that they could take a unit out and survive and you know achieve an objective And you know a lot of these guys were 19 20 year olds and all of a sudden in charge of you know a whole squad of guys for their lives and so to give them that confidence that they knew that they could go out and achieve An objective in spite of all the hardships, which the desert certainly threw at them that really gave them Some of the tools they needed once they got overseas Imagine a lot of these soldiers 19 or 20 I mean we have a 22 year old who you know, I mean think about that. They were the ones that they fought this war and they fought this war and They just did it and and I don't know how many 18 or 19 year olds you all know But it's hard to imagine to be honest, right? So Yeah, do we want to open it up to questions? Yeah, we were gonna do questions. I think And do we have cards? Is that the idea? Okay, we'll can do a microphone for questions Annie So what was what was the original seed of this project? I mean what you know at what point did someone say we need to make this film We need to tell this story in this way What was the seed? What generated this? We actually had done another film similar to this about the Desert Training Center focusing more on on pilots and Training pilots for the war and the Bureau of Land Management had really wanted to tell this story as part of a bigger effort called Discover the Desert and they worked out a deal with one of the solar installation companies and it was in a sense they kind of wrote it into a mitigation they said You know, we really want to do this documentary for PBS if you help fund that then We'll work with you on some of the construction stuff that they had to do so it was in the end it was Your tax dollars at work here trying to do federal mitigation and to get to get this story told and and to really support the efforts of They're discovered the Desert Campaign I mean there's a lot to see down in the desert and and I can tell you it you know It takes a while to see it, but when you explore it's it's pretty amazing actually. There's actually What it may be 15 or 20 BLM archaeologists in in the Western States or at least in California in the West Coast area and you know because of budget restraints they don't get an opportunity to do some really interesting and important work in terms of Recording and interpreting history whether it's like You know deep history with you know, Native Americans occupying that area or the more recent Stuff, so there's a lot of frustrated historians and archaeologists who know that we have a tremendous amount of Important information to convey to the the the general public and in fact, it's you know part of their mandate To administer those those lands on behalf of the public so they looked for and found a creative way to fund a Public information public education campaign that feeds into that Discover the Desert effort and Like I said Matt had found you know historic footage, so I mean everybody knew that this is a really Dynamite topic. I imagine Susan you probably enjoyed, you know cutting this thing together because it is such a It's a very compelling Angle by which to experience World War two to see it from that that aspect our Desert resource played an hugely important role when you think of one million Combat veterans pass through that landscape in just two years and they fanned out once North Africa It only took six months before North Africa was secured, you know after the start of Desert torch They found out across the world. They fought in the Pacific they fought in in Europe They fought in Italy everywhere so You know, it's it's a really unique and important aspect to our own American history and the local history if you're a Californian or at least Western States a person We could have done a series, but we did a half-hour show Yeah, so much more to say Yeah, hi there, I've got two questions One how soon did the troops know they were training for North Africa if that was a secret or not? And the second one is, you know when they did land in North Africa, they were actually fighting the French first So I was curious to know whether that was that all confusing to the troops. Yeah, because yeah The ironic thing is most of the troops in the Desert Training Center did not end up in the desert, right? So it's it's ironic, but it was still a good training ground for the other places that they didn't add up You know some of the first ones that ended up in the Aleutian Islands So you can imagine they're surprised after having been in the desert in the summer and they're up in the Aleutians But I don't there was no surprise and everybody knew that we were gonna go to North Africa So a lot of the troops that went to some of the first units to the Desert Training Center knew that they were gonna Go to North Africa and I think they were a lot of them were excited You know it actually be the first troops to gain some combat What was the temperature inside a tank in the summer? Did they have air conditioners at that time? No air conditioners In the summer, I can't imagine how hot I mean there's Footage of troops frying eggs on the exterior of some of the M4 tanks. So imagine what it was like inside We were scouting just I would say what was that end of May or something like this Yeah, and it was like 110 up to 117 degrees the day we were scouting I mean it's it's a little warm there, you know, and it's cold at night. Yes It's high desert, right? It's high desert down the wind. You heard the veterans talk about the wind I don't know if you remember the wind Jim, but that's one of the things that I hear so much about from veterans and the sand Getting into everything. Yes, you had You had plenty of that Sandy eggs sand and wind Yes, you didn't mention the fact that there is a visitor center and museum there and Which gives all sorts of details about that They do the the church Pat Memorial Museum. In fact, they have this DVD and and they're we worked with them extensively on the project a lot of the stills you saw up there also you I think this could more properly be known as the Colorado deserts on the Mojave, but that may be a You know detail and another question did the we had a big military and army training base here in Camp Roberts near past the Robles a huge base which California Northern California's are very familiar with to what extent did those two bases interconnect or Cooperate or did they were they totally distinct? Yeah, they were actually distinct although some units would go from one to another But the desert training center was different in the sense that it was really a maneuver grounds It wasn't a base like Camp Roberts was so it was used to kind of put the finishing touches on a unit Particularly divisions they would come from a place like Camp Roberts go out to do the desert training center for several months to Maneuver against other large divisions before they were sent overseas You know, I'll just add to that that training area is considered so valuable that we currently have two major installations still to this day out there we have 29 palms the Marine base that's out there plus Or is it Erwin for Erwin? Yeah, which is a highly specialized one of only three. I think You know very specialized training sites in the United States that actually attracts Military from allies from around the world We interviewed the commander of Fort Erwin and he said very similar stuff You know like nothing beats the desert for training. I mean and they really have adopted that and It's still in forms and they have full, you know for Overseas for Afghanistan and Iraq. They have really extensive Villages and all towns and stuff. Yes, pretty wacky Can you tell us what you did to locate the veterans that you interviewed for the documentary? It was a big job to be really honest. I mean we interviewed 14 veterans and we probably reached out to I don't know 50 or so and a lot of things had to happen to do it, you know People like Jim who are you know have you know, very just incredibly Cogent and thoughtful about their experience And so we did our best to try to find folks like that and and as you can see you know in the in the show A lot of them are not not everybody made the edit but but everybody we interviewed had great great stories And and I just have to reiterate what an honor it is to interview them and to be able to upload their You know their interviews for everybody. I mean there was The guy with the The Boston accent who loved the desert and loved the blooming of the desert. He sat down He didn't get up for four hours He sat there for four hours all he did was talk and he goes you should have to get up to go to the bathroom I mean it was it was like he was amazing and it was you know, there was a sense of catharsis a little bit I mean with some of them and with us to you know to hear these these stories these Vets who of course were first of all very generous to share their stories with us And it's really really as you can imagine moving to listen to them talk my dad served in World War two in the Navy I'm sure other people's relatives served in the war and you've heard some of these stories and you know these are perfect strangers Whether it was Althea talking about you know her nursing career. She retires a full colonel in the in the army You know and to hear her talk about these guys who she realized I mean she served in the Korean War she served by Vietnam She knows when she says it does not serve our soldiers when they are so tight-lipped and so taciturn and they keep They retain their stories, you know within them and they there isn't that catharsis So that when we hear it we know that that's sort of part of this unburdening process that that we were Fortunate enough to to be part of but we had researchers helping us and we put words out to you know the call out to veterans group Groups the VA in a local VA hospitals. We found you know, I think Kevin you found the the guy who managed the tanker outfit From where we got you know our our okies and Texans you know to talking about you know they're the 740th tank battalion How to take out a tiger tank So we were just really fortunate that we're able to locate a lot of these guys Tommy Thompson the the the guy who talked about you know dancing girls and it was dangerous and stuff It privately talked a little bit about this on camera but he says not a day goes by that he doesn't remember the battle of the Bulge he was deep in the battle of the Bulge and he and he just tears rolled up and he just said not a day goes by that He doesn't remember it and he's like 93 and you know you just it was pretty horrific to hear him talk about the battle of the Bulge And to talk about his experiences there was you know it was winter and the frozen the bodies were frozen and just it was It was really rough and you know we also have to remember and I say this was all due respect to my Russian Russian dance teacher friend Nikolai that you know the war for the most part was won on the the eastern front We forget how much the the Russians and the Eastern Europeans suffered you know 20 25 million dead a lot of them civilians Maybe the bulk of them civilians the US suffered somewhere in the neighborhood of you know 400,000 or more You know deaths military deaths we were never bombed So you know there's a lot of perspective that We need to appreciate and understand as not just Americans but as world citizens you know this was a world war And yes we made this program about our contribution to the war but you know if we had made this a 60 minute film Instead of a 30 minute film there would have been more about the rest of the world and how it you know stood up And and did what it had to do as well to to you know overcome fascism Question Is there still an issue down there? It seemed like they covered a lot of ground and and and you're willing to have visitors and all this There's still an issue with the unexploded ordinance that's as a matter of fact there is If you ask the BLM archaeologists they'll tell you yeah they're a little wary of people trumps you know tromping around certain areas You know in those mock battlefield areas there was live ammunition and even an inert round still has a charge in a lot of cases So there's thousands and thousands of anti-tank mines placed in the desert so and it's not been cleared We found a lot of rounds out there and we had to sign waivers I mean they didn't tell us about that though until after we'd signed the contract They did they did use Italian POWs interesting story right I had a couple of units of POWs that were stationed out on the Colorado River And they had them do some EOD work explosive ordinance disposal So imagine these poor Italian young men stuck out there in the desert clearing the desert of EOD But they didn't get anywhere near the extent of you know the areas that were used You can see on maps it's marked right where the unexploded ordinance is you know allegedly to be and it's a pretty extensive area isn't it They told us if you saw metal not to strike it in really hard with any sharp objects Annamarie is a filmmaker's wife frustrating a scary proposition Other questions we have room time for about maybe one or two more I think Once again thank you gentlemen for your hard work I'm curious in the psychological training that was involved was there any exposure in your research to Obviously the mechanics of what was needed had to be trained But I think also psychologically these men had to be trained to know that we're going to win this Because it looked pretty bleak going in Was there any research or known training? Certainly one of the things that struck me was again the battle reports from North Africa A lot of the observers were noticing that the Americans did not have that sense of killer instinct You know one of the veterans talked about that Americans weren't killer by nature or something like that And that was one of the things that they really wanted to enure those soldiers and Patton certainly had that And he wanted to give the troops the desire to close with the enemy and kill them You know he wanted to make them killers so that was certainly part of the training I think I'll let Jim talk about that in his training but I think that was probably the most important part of their psychological training Jim what was your sense of that? Well what's the psychological? Well the whole idea that here you were in the states and you were going to go overseas and you were going to have to be killers It was going to be killer be killed and just you know kind of framing your mind around that Personally I didn't give it much thought until I got over there and somebody was shooting at me Bullets have a way of doing that I'm sure For example after towards the end of the bulls I had been made a squad leader just before the bulls And I have to gather my thoughts on it I'm sorry it's drifted away from me That's okay you know coming out of World War I the term was shell shock And I think that World War I ushered in this era of heightened technology I mean the equipment was so much more devastating You know goodbye cavalry now you have tanks and you have mobile artillery and you have you know Stuka dive bombers And I think the level of horror that the World War II soldier faced was just at a magnitude of order so much higher And I don't think that our psychological response to that level of you know dealing with so much carnage and just you know the explosive charges were so much more powerful That it's taken us a long time to catch up with how to deal with the effects of exposure to battle What do you think? Yeah I mean they were really trying to get them used to the sights and sounds of the battlefield so you see training where they're crawling under barbed wire and they're firing machine guns over the top of them They're exploding you know rounds mortar rounds nearby them as close as possible without injuring them to get them used to that sound which you know few of us can really say what that's like unless we've been in that situation It's hard to wrap your mind around Well in that though the combat course and you did it at night we at least we did and you've got live ammunition passing over your head and you see the tracers and they're setting off explosives all around you But somehow you know that they're not going to harm you I mean I don't know what it is but when you're overseas and in a minefield you're aware of it What I was going to say though and it's kill or be killed and I never actually had to point my personal arm weapon at somebody and fire a shot because I didn't see them But I had a sniper a couple of times who was firing at me and I knew he was firing at me and I couldn't dig in and I felt like you know an SOB if I can ever get a shot at him I'm going to take him out And when there's something impersonal about firing a mortar or even observing a mortar because you're away from it and it's probably like bombing a city You don't know that you realize the death and destruction but another time when we were on the Rohr River just prior to pushing off from the Rohr River after the bulge had been cleared off We had been taking German fire from artillery pieces the whole time we were there from mid December or so till the 20th of February and it got a little bit tiresome But on one occasion you could never see their guns I mean I was a forward observer during that period and I would go up a couple of days every week while we were there and control some of the fire And on this one occasion the ground had been frozen and we had light snow that covered it and we got a sudden change in the weather one day And the artillery piece suddenly the camouflage was no longer camouflage because the little light covering it snow had melted and we saw the pieces out there And I got to direct the 81 millimeter mortars because it was beyond our range and there apparently wasn't a spotter plane that they could get up there and wanted to get firing on it And I directed the artillery to that at the time and they had just come in with some shells that had radio in them so that they didn't explode on a time basis But they got a signal from the ground back to the radio and you got an air burst that was an air burst and they bracketed in on the piece I was giving the instructions to my lieutenant and he was forwarding it to the artillery pieces and when we got it bracketed in then they cut loose with a barrage of about three pieces And the Germans didn't know what hit them and there was a rush of adrenaline in you because by golly you saw it happening firsthand And that's I mean you were glad to knock them out and no question about it and that's part of the game So Jim did you bring your poem? Yes I'm sorry what's that? Okay yeah so I will say that for public television we offered it up on the satellite and it looks like right now 110 stations have taken it and it looks like it's going to be like 190 maybe 200 broadcasts A lot of them are going to be in Memorial Day so KQD is going to be running it, KVIE, KOCE, all the West Coast stations are going to be having it and then actually we were thrilled I mean for a kind of a modest half hour film to get that kind of carriage is really really a big success and I think in honor frankly a response to the quality of the interviews with the veterans I mean the veterans are so compelling so I want to say one thing I think Jim has a poem here is that right? I do I can recite it I think Okay I think he's going to recite a poem which we found very lovely I wrote this poem before I was drafted I wrote this poem in either December or January December of 1942 or January of 1943 while I was still going to college and it started I tabbed it to soldiers poem and it is he had heard the order to advance and now was on his way marching across that desolate stretch in order to enter the fray Don found him in the battle fighting for what was right too well he knew man could not live in a nation ruled by might he crawled into position and there for a while he lay till he saw a German moving 200 yards away his gun was at his shoulder the German in his sights he squeezed the trigger tightly and his face turned deathly white the battle raged for many months until the GIs won soon they'd be returning for now their job was done he thought of things that had happened that night as he knelt to pray and he asked the God in heaven to hear what he had to say some mothers now are waiting for their sons whom I have shot am I to say it's nothing that they had cast their lot is this what we are born for to kill our fellow man to destroy the things we dearly love and further what they began dear God I ask you guide us in the peace that we shall write that men may live the way they should and boys not have to fight thank you