 All right, we are back. Look who's on the screen with me drew here at that anxiety guide calm back with Holly It's been like a year. I think it's been a more than a year. I was pregnant last time we did this and now I've got Like off to college so It's been it's been a while it's been a minute as they say here in the States so Today we are going for those of you who were following along with Holly and I a year ago or more We were going through hope and help for your nerves, right by dr. Claire weeks Quick recap australian. She was a physician. I don't remember what she was really. She was definitely a doctor Yeah, I know she was an md or phd, but anyway um She did most of her work in the 50s and 60s centered around anxiety disorders and had to deal with them And I think we both tend to agree that her writing is the gold standard to me On on you know, how to deal with these issues panic anxiety That sort of stuff and so Holly and I started last year going through hope and help for your nerves Which I think was maybe in her first book. I'm not sure Yeah, I just want to make the point because I had to download this yesterday that self help for your nerves by Dr. Chloe's is exactly the same book. I think one's like a british and american or something like that But it's the same book maybe okay, so hope and help for your nerves or self help for your nerves same book So if you don't have it, it's cheap on amazon. You can download it as a kindle book. It's out there It's it's a relatively inexpensive book if you want to grab it and catch up with the episodes that we did last year I've actually on my youtube channel. I made a playlist for these so you can watch chapters one through five today We're going to go through chapter six Right and we're going to try and keep continuing along for those of you who have been patiently waiting and asking On a weekly basis. Some people I appreciate those feedback. When are you and holly going to do this again? Well, here we are so welcome back. Yeah, sorry for the break, but we hear now. I like the never it happens So anyway, um this chapter chapter six which she calls cure of the more constant symptoms What do you think? This is the this is the chapter. This is what it's all about. This is the chapter for me This is where she talks about how to actually Deal in a practical way with your symptoms that you are Like the ones that you're constantly suffering from like not necessarily like this isn't necessarily like the one in the middle of a panic attack This is the sort of every day. Oh my god. I feel this and this and this and you know And she talks How to deal with that? And I think maybe it's not when you're in the middle of a panic attack, but it's certainly I think it applies even in the middle of a panic attack. It's the hardest way She mentioned something in the middle of the chapter about the peak of experience Which I think is how you're dealing with these symptoms at that peak that elevated level 10 You know five alarm panic So I think the advice in this chapter is relevant with just background anxiety individual symptoms collections of symptoms And even when you're in a full blown panic And really if you learn how to deal with the symptoms the way she's teaching You start to wind up less. I think in panic and you know, yeah, absolutely. It tends to short circuit it Because once you so the only idea that we're talking is the So we've talked in the past about the fact that the symptoms that you're feeling are just the result of adrenaline And adrenaline is there because your body thinks that you're in a state of danger. So it's trying to Give you the physical ability to get out of that danger and you've got to tell your body No, no, no wait. I'm not in danger And the hardest bit about that is that you feel like you're in danger And the symptoms make you so worried that you You feel so scared of them that your brain can only interpret that fear As danger because why would you be scared of it if it's not dangerous? And so your brain is interpreting it So the whole idea is that you have to break that circle And the way you do that is to not show fear to your symptoms And the way you do that is how she tells you here Yes, and so Like let's just look at the first thing that she says she says first look at yourself and notice how you are sitting in your chair I have no doubt you are tensi shrinking from the feelings within you and I want you to do the exact opposite I want you to sit as comfortably as you can and relax to the best of your ability by letting your arms and legs Sack into the chair as if charged with lead and take a slow deep breath through your partly opened mouth And like so even that on its own is actually like really hard to do and you're tense because you're You feel like you're constantly having to Guard yourself and watch yourself and And sort of like be ready to fight the anxious feelings that you're feeling But if you actually just relax into them relax your body like nothing's gonna happen. It doesn't Make it worse and it feels like it's going to work Just beyond the point of where you actually do it you think this is going to make it worse When you actually do it, you're like Oh, yeah. Yeah, nothing got worse. I need to be sat like this actually I can be sat like this and nothing gets worse and that's the very first that's the number one Step of a thousand mile journey or whatever is just to yeah To just do and it's doing the exact opposite of what you think you're supposed to be doing. Yeah Um, I and you're right. It's really we've probably said this a year ago and almost every chapter this that concept of like just Stop doing what you're doing and do nothing. She even mentions something called masterly inactivity later in the chapter Yeah, so and I've said in other venues and other podcasts and stuff You can either do something when you feel your symptoms or you could do nothing And doing nothing is faster than doing something in terms of feeling better And this is exactly what she's saying here you You have to develop the ability to just go limp in the face of Wanting to fight and gird yourself and hold yourself and catch yourself and notice every little thing and engage in the crazy inner dialogue No, you have to do none of that in the end what she's saying here is do none of that So if you want your symptoms to go away, ultimately, that's not the primary goal That's a secondary result. But if you want your symptoms to go away, this is what you have to do Nothing do nothing. Dr. Week says just let them happen. Just let them happen and When it's it's sometimes it feels like there's an onslaught, right? You're in the middle of this raging storm and for me, we'll talk about her acceptance and her floating in a second For me, I've always framed it Acceptance is is huge and you have to fully accept We'll talk about this next in order to be able to do this if you haven't accepted your symptoms as harmless Truly 100% resign yourself to that fact. You you won't be able to do this. You won't be able to do this So that's job number one, but she talks about floating for me. I've always framed it in terms of bending So think about like a willow tree when the wind is howling at that tree. It doesn't brace against it It it right. It doesn't brace against it. It just right it bends and it never breaks So, you know, that's such a core concept here floating bending without breaking and being soft in the face of that strength is in softness here As opposed to in you know, hanging on so What she says it, I mean she goes through individual symptoms Which maybe we don't have to do so much but when she talks about doing nothing She also talks about let's talk about the the thing where Just like a broken leg takes time to heal. I think this is when she's talking about I think Yeah, so she's saying like right so the moment that you accept it So say that you have accepted it and you're now like going like no I'm not scared of the of that sort of weird like inability to catch my breath sort of thing like It doesn't scare me. I'll accept that. I'm gonna feel like that It doesn't mean that you're instantly now going to feel completely better and be better because It is like that's that now it's the broken leg big that needs time to heal But you can't just you can't sit and expect that you've been doing what you've been doing the whole time And it would get better like a broken leg. You've got to Make that action of just and it's so subtle. This is what's so hard about it Is that people must think that they've tried this at some point and they go well, it didn't work for me But if it didn't work for you, it's just it sounds like really patronizing and horrible to say But it must be that you didn't try hard enough You didn't quite have the mindset exactly right or you just didn't quite understand something about About it and it's so subtle the difference between Getting it and not getting it that once you get it you have to get back you do you will get better You will recover from it. There's no choice. It's impossible not to it's just logic And it's just and you're right that difference is it's almost indefinable the difference between Saying like well, I'm not afraid of that anymore and really Really excited like you get I think most of us get 98 percent Toward that spot and it's that last little two percent that subtle nuance of saying truly saying Yeah, whatever dude like, you know Truly do not care anymore Um, you have to get to that point where and then you can do nothing you can relax and when you do it What she's saying is you're right. You're not going to instantly feel better. It's not an instant cure You're still going to react. You're still going to have symptoms You're still going to be afraid from time to time and it's a slow process You will you will change from being on guard and afraid and worried and Trying to stop these things and fighting against them and you will slowly start to change that mindset And she talks about how your symptoms are a reflection of your mood When you're on guard you are And and and afraid and worried you're you're starting to feel these negative things When you truly let it all go accept it and just let it come and do its worst, which is nothing Its worst is nothing That's when you begin to change and it's not that you suddenly go from being housebound to going on a world cruise But your attitude changes and suddenly things do slowly begin to fade into the background So your palpitations and your jelly legs of your dizziness aren't going to stop instantly the moment you do that It will take some time and practice of doing this and but they will begin to fade into the background And then all of a sudden you'll discover like wait a minute all of a sudden i'm not having them anymore Yeah, but the first step is still having the symptoms and just not caring Yeah, you've got like she makes a really big point about you've got to be prepared to feel the symptoms and just carry on working Or whatever it is that you're doing regardless of them like whilst you're feeling them She's like if your hands are trembling, they're still good hands and you can still use them And you just go and you carry on doing you're gonna. Well, okay, my hands are trembling but like So what you just carry on doing what you're doing because if you stop and you go, oh my god, my hands are trembling Then you just send in more signals to your brain that like you're scared and therefore you're in danger And your brain's just never going to get the message that you're not in danger You need to send the message that you're not in danger and you do that by not being scared of them Of the symptoms, that's true. And I think I don't know if you would agree with this But for me what I find is even when a symptom hits after you've reached this level of true acceptance and you can truly Float or bend or whatever we're going to call this You know, I will still acknowledge it like I'm feeling dizzy right now But it's it's literally just that one sentence. I'm feeling dizzy right now and it doesn't matter I don't stop to think about it. I don't think about it. I don't do what if So that's the difference So if you are at that state right now where you are insisting I'm not afraid of these things anymore like I'm not afraid of this anymore But I will say this and and somebody out there that's listening. I know is going to relate to this specifically If you tell me and I mean me personally because I have people messaging me all the time If you tell me that you're no longer bothered by that symptom Yet you are messaging me about that symptom. Then you are still bothered by it. Yes. Yes. So And even if you're bothered by it, it doesn't matter if you're like scared or bothered the fact that you're showing it Any sort of like respect. Yes, I mean is It's the same thing and you need to just ignore she says she makes a really good point She says like she talks about the churning stomach or like, you know Like just stomach problems and she goes like if you had a bit of arthritis in your wrist You wouldn't be like going like oh my god I've just got this like little tingling in my wrist the whole time and therefore I can't do anything You just be like, oh, this is kind of annoying, but I'll just carry on Anyway, you know and like and she's just like why would it be any different that it's in your stomach or in your chest or in your head Whatever it is. It's just like it doesn't matter what the symptom is It's just that you are reacting to it and you need to stop Reacting to it and you just need to carry on regardless, but oh, yeah I'm feeling kind of weird at the minute, but I'll just carry on right. I'm just gonna keep going anyway, or It doesn't matter and and even for somebody who's in my situation years and years down the road There are still times and for me It's always like that little this is dizziness disorientation Derealization thing when it hits me and I'll be in the middle of something sitting in a meeting in my business or whatever It could be anything. I still have to consciously say like, uh, here it is again Just keep going drew. I have to actually just tell myself that still even now Then I'll just keep going and then sure enough it begins to fade and for me it feels quickly For you it might take longer if you're still at the beginning stage of this But you'll get to that point where like I don't pay it any mind Oh, yeah, just keep going. Don't worry about it. And sure enough within five minutes. I'm not even thinking about it anymore It's gone. Yeah. Yeah for me. I kind of like just reason I feel that every night if I'm very stressed Especially I do you still get like symptoms of anxiety and I just go like Oh, it's really weird. I feel really anxious at the minute, but I don't know I'm I guess I must just be stressed and then I just Carry on my day and it's not like oh brilliant. I'm feeling anxious, but it's not like Oh my god, I'm feeling anxious. It's just like Weird. I'm feeling anxious kind of like, you know, that's anxiety. I'm feeling I must be stressed. It's kind of like a point of interest it's not like a point of Oh my god or fear anymore and and then it just I mean, I don't even remember thinking it again You know, like I sort of think it and I'm like, that's weird. I'm feeling anxious and it might even get a little bit You know intense within Ten minutes later. I've completely forgotten about it. You know, like it never happened, right? Yeah, because I'm thinking about something else now. You know, just So it happens and the thing that's we just need to reiterate the point of recovery isn't the goal Isn't that you never feel anxiety again? It's not that you never have a panic attack again It's that you're just not scared of it because then it doesn't have any sort of impact on your life at all it's no different than you know Trying to find your car keys in the morning or missing a bus or it's an annoyance It stinks. You don't want it to happen. But okay, it's not the end of the world And that is absolutely true and it starts with that true 100 acceptance and believing that like I just have you know what if I'm going to be sweaty and dizzy then screw it. I'm going to be sweaty and dizzy That's the way it's going to be. All right. It doesn't matter. I'm still the same guy even There's a good bit in in this chapter where she says like don't strive to be normal Don't strive to be relaxed just accept that you're probably looking kind of sweaty and shaky and You're feeling terrible and just accept that you're going to feel terrible for the next You know 20 minutes, half an hour whatever it is that you're sort of like used to feeling that for Just just it doesn't matter. You don't have to feel normal all the time You don't have to feel normal any of the time at the minute. You're just trying to Not fight something that's completely pointless because that does not achieve in you anything exactly right And I think the key sometimes the thing that stands in the way of that true acceptance and Truly floating or bending or relaxing whatever you want to call it Is that understanding truly believing and gripping that concept that says you're not controlling anything So, you know when I used to deal with like well, you know, maybe some heart palpitations or you know That's those skipped heartbeats that I would have or my heart would feel heavy. I would feel every beat It wasn't beating any more quickly, but it was like beating in my ears practically I would spend all day long checking my pulse and poking and prodding at my chest and and I was doing nothing I was controlling nothing. It didn't matter. I was just prolonging it in a way So it's like being in a passenger on a plane and worrying about what that noise was and what it's just like you can't Do anything about it You can't do anything even if I was like I think the engine's on fire. Do you know what am I gonna do about it? I don't have a bucket of water Put my trust in the people that do know so I have to put my trust in the The bits of my body that have kept me alive this whole time and know exactly how much to breathe and how much to Pump my blood around and do you know, I mean just let the body do its job But you don't know anything about biology and how to pump a heart, you know I mean so just let go and I think I would add to that I don't want to get too deep into this because try to keep this under like a reasonable time frame, but If you are playing symptom whack-a-mole with things that you drink or sniff or rub on your skin or swallow or listen to or Like you're still you're not accepting them then, you know, like I want to make this feeling go away Why why do you want to make the feeling go away because it's uncomfortable? Well, a lot of things are you know what my favorite hockey team loses. That's uncomfortable I don't want to tap it but it does So, you know, I don't I don't know what to say in a way you have to stop trying to control them and and manipulate them And stop them from happening. Just don't for me like the biggest mistake I made for the longest time because I suffered for 20 years, you know before I actually got Sort of found the missing piece of information I was looking for which was basically everything that's in this book But for 20 years I was like so I done What am I trying to say? I completely forgot what I was going to say I yeah, so I had a um, a repeat prescription of a Benzo, you know, like a valium or diazogram And it was just a it was a small dose But it was to take whenever I needed and so I would I'd got myself like I was doing sort of you might call it exposure Whatever I decided at some point in my 20s to not to not let anxiety stop me doing anything So I carried on doing everything. I was working. I was traveling. I was doing everything But I was like white knuckle in the whole time. My friends had no idea how much distress I was in the whole time, you know, I didn't really tell anyone or anything But so but the mistake I kept making was that every time I felt anxious So I'd be like on my way to work and just like oh my god I'm feeling awful and I take a tablet to try and like Relax myself to just get through enough and it would you know, maybe take the edge off very slightly But what I didn't realize I was doing is that everything I was doing to try and avoid feeling anxiety was actually like re It was the word, you know, like really it was feeling that cycle reaffirming it. Yeah, I was reaffirming that I was reaffirming that it was something to be afraid of something to be avoided And like when I sort of discovered that whole thing of like avoidance maintains anxiety It was just like oh, so I shouldn't take a tablet. I shouldn't try and not feel Tense I shouldn't try and run away from this and as soon as I did that it was so Quick the sort of transition Because for me, I'd actually already was going out and doing stuff I just wasn't dealing with the symptoms, which is kind of like what this chapter is all about And it was kind of like this chapter was the whole missing piece for me and soon as I realized that like Oh, it doesn't matter that I'm feeling this or this or this or this That doesn't matter and I was doing the stuff anyway. And then honestly, I was It took me a few months and I was just completely better. I would say yeah, it doesn't take that long It literally was that and I suffer for 20 years. Yeah, it doesn't take that long. It really doesn't It's not it's not years and years and years. Although you you may have still had symptoms even two or three months later It took me a lot. It took me for them to go away Still a longish time and and I had a couple of setbacks where I sort of forgot a few things That you know, but that's kind of nothing compared to what I'd been through before, you know, so very common very common and I think I mean, it's there's so it really is there's so much good stuff in these however many pages in this one chapter of the book You know, if you have the book just read it over and over. I mean, she's really she's given you the keys to the kingdom here for sure Yeah So I think one of the other things that we should talk about is that that's the thing where acceptance and and floating She calls it floating. We'll talk about that. She does mention She goes to each individual symptom she talks about trembling hands and she's sweating Racing heart. Can I just say one thing about a race and heart? Sure. Absolutely In the uk there was for a little bit a Game show called a thousand heart beats and it was like a terrible game show And people the contestants were wired up to a heart monitor And they had to answer like questions like a quiz show But they had to do it within so they would count like Every heartbeat and they had to do it within a thousand heartbeats answer so many questions So obviously the faster their heartbeat the less time they had Right But so it would show and like they would be so tense like trying to and so obviously the more like stress They got by how much time was running out the faster their heart would be and people were on like 160 170 bpm Just standing in a tv studio answering questions And yet I've seen on the panic disorder group of stuff people freaked out because they're in the middle of a panic attack And they listen to their heartbeat and it's like 140 or something just like there's nothing your heart is fine The heart People's heartbeat goes up because they're answering questions on a game show. So 160 170. It's nothing. That's right. It's just Your heart is supposed to beat like it's supposed to be able to beat fast. It's trying to like It's what it does Panic attack. It's trying to just help you run fast or fight and stuff And so like don't be surprised if you've got a fast heartbeat when you're feeling Tense, you know and just now imagine you're on that stupid game show and just and so like they'd be like Oh careful your heart beats racing But amen because you're running out of time to answer questions not because you're medically in any sort of danger at all and I just I found it like really um It was so like silly and stupid that I kind of found it like really like and and it's true You know and I'll mention two other things then about about the heart too because it seems to be a core thing from a lot of us It was for me Skip to beats like if you experience skip to beats, which I do You know, of course get checked by a doctor. I think we've talked to this before but For the most part they are likely premature ventricular contractions, which I was told by multiple cardiologists every human heart has We just don't always feel them It's just that there's a couple of cells on the surface of your heart that have decided to sort of go rogue a little bit And that skip beat the pause the big thump afterward That is a built-in mechanism that's happened over millions of years of evolution Where the rest of your heart just beats those cells back into submission like you can't those cells are not going to have their way They are going to get hit over the head and your heart will be back in its normal rhythm And there's no danger in that so it's because it's trying to it's it's fixing itself, right? It is fixing itself So that when you feel it knows what it's doing the pause like and I know everybody just you know It freaks me out and I used to panic instantly when I would feel them You have that that skipped beat that flutter There's a bit of a pause It feels like your heart has stopped beating for a second And then there's the big thump and that's just because your heart has filled with extra blood because of the pause It's called compensatory pause And then the the thump is a lot of blood gets pumped out of your heart at the same time and you feel that as the thump sometimes you feel it in your throat and Essentially the the beat the rhythm keeping cells aren't taking care of business They are they are doing what they are supposed to do that is a normal part of a healthy functioning heart And if you are like me and you used to feel your heart beating like it was in wet cement thump Even when it wasn't fast, I could feel it in my ears. I could feel my neck pulsing It's only because you are so sensitized to your heartbeat It's no it's beating no heavier than it normally would So, you know from a fluid dynamics standpoint if your heartbeat is at 70 It's not it's not beating any harder than it. It can't beat any harder at 70 70. That's it So, um, you have to get past those things too and she does mention that and she goes through some very specific things about stomach and hands and heart Which you know, we could go through if we really wanted to but I think in the end It's just the concept of like your body is fine. You have to accept that and do it. So What what is she when she talks about You know, she says this thing with no magic switch When she's talking about her heart, you know your heart Like well, okay, even once you've got to the point where you accept this like we've said the symptoms will probably still come You're not going to banish them instantly. That's what she calls the no magic switch And then she talks about like Source scalp or you know, it's just tension muscle tension. Um, I like when she talks about two things One is the limited power. Well two things is putting up with and I think that's the difference that we've been talking about that's subtle difference Like she's putting up with make sure you appreciate the the difference being truly accepting And only thinking you are accepting. Yeah, so make sure you know the difference between truly accepting and just putting up with So like you were saying just white knuckling your way through things And in the little discussion group we have going On based on the podcast to do with billy somebody posted a video yesterday that was excellent. She talks about that was Who posted that it wasn't laura? I can't remember who posted it. I'm sorry But uh, it was a great great video She just talked into the camera for a couple of minutes and talking about how she was Trying to get out there and do her exposure work and she was doing it wrong Because of that. Oh, it was really good. It was really good. She was just putting up with you know, like I'm just dealing with I'm just putting up with it She she had to remind herself like just let it go just let it go like that was really good So let's talk about the limited power of she talks about the limited power of adrenaline releasing nerves like Which is you know, your symptoms are as bad as they are There's no, you know, uh, when your heart beats at 150 beats it beats at 150 beats It's no worse. There's no such thing as a worse 150 beats Yeah, if your hand and what she says doesn't matter. There's a you so in a way She almost challenges you like go ahead try to make it worse. Yeah, exactly. Try to make that's the thing If you try and face your and if you try and face the The symptoms, you know, the david boys and so I turned myself to face me Um, so if you like face it and you face yourself and you're like, okay, what is it? It's just like, oh, it's it's nothing like you can't make it worse by looking at it In fact, you kind of just decrease it by looking at it in a way so like When you When you're like, oh, this is this feeling this feeling if you go like, well, what is this feeling? I'm gonna actually she sort of encourages you to really like examine it and sort of pick it apart But like what is it? What is this feeling? What is so bad? Is it that bad and then just Relax into it face it and and accept it And like that's all it is. It's just it's just adrenaline coming in and Doing some stuff to make you in a different physical states that you could run really fast or fight, you know If you had to right what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. No, yeah And it's that whole thing where you know, it's this is your body acting as exactly as it was designed to do Which is doing it at the wrong time These are the it's just the wrong time. It's bad timing. But otherwise your body is functioning You know what be be thankful your sympathetic nervous system works the way it's supposed to Yeah, you are working exactly as you designed exactly as you came from the factory is exactly Just at the wrong time. We just don't want it to happen at that moment, but it's working just fine So let's let's move on a little bit. Let's talk about her her floating Because that's kind of like once you've accepted now you have to start to float Yeah, I think acceptance is a cognitive or a mental function like truly believing that this is the way to go Floating is where you put it into practice, right? Yeah And what I really like is that she talks about floating in in a sort of exposure way actually she says like Oh, you know, like one of her patients was like, oh, they you just they couldn't even walk down the street to go to the Shop, you know, like because they were so tense and and like just felt so awful that they couldn't bring It was almost like they became sort of like paralyzed with fear And so she said you're trying to fight it and pushing if you're pushing yourself like that It's kind of like a fight and she said don't Sort of fight yourself fight your way down the street. Just float your way down the street Just don't really think about it and just float down the street float into the shop buy a thing and float back again You know and she said when she used that word float instead of sort of fight With that this patient she was like she then came like sort of dancing into her office and was just like Don't stop me now doctor. Shall I float off and do something else? Yeah, yeah She sort of like was almost cured just by changing this one word in her In her sort of vocabulary of what she was doing. It's like So instead of like I'm gonna really force myself to go and do this. It's just like I'm gonna float myself and when I was Um last year when we started doing this last year just before we did this I'd had a bit of a setback It was when I was I'd found out I was pregnant and I had like a really bad setback and I honestly I couldn't leave the house I couldn't go anywhere And I reread the book. This is why I think we ended up doing this in the first place And um, and it was that bit on floating and I was just like I'm just gonna stop trying to think about this And rationalize it or do anything about it and I'm just going to float And I literally floated down to the swimming pool and then literally floated I remember you telling the story. Yeah. Yeah, and I just like floated myself into the car Just floated that like and then just just didn't just stopped thinking about it Stopped trying to analyze it or do anything and just did it And then I was just like oh Okay, and then did that a few more times and then yeah, honestly It just went so quickly after that I mean because that was just a setback and so I got Better from that just so quickly, you know within like a couple of weeks, you know Yeah, because you had already done that before Yeah, you know, you just needed to refresh her in a way Yeah, but I just the the floating bit really spoke to me in that She does try to conceptualize it. I think when she uses the word floating she talks about Visualizing yourself in cool deep water literally floating or you know moving slowly through this very calm water It's cool. It feels good. It's you know that that feeling of being in deep water walking through a swimming pool It's it's slow. It's it's it's it's graceful It's all of those things and she's I think she's trying to she's trying to convey I guess that the feeling that you have to have when you're truly floating through these symptoms of just Just relaxing and moving fluidly and deliberately and slowing things down So you can't do anything in a hurry when you're like walking through deep water, you know, you have to be slow You're thinking about every step you have to think about every step you take You have to be deliberate and where you put your feet and where your hands are and and all those things So what when we say like just ignore what's going on and just keep doing what you're doing You have to if you're accepting and floating or what I like to think of is bending in the wind in the storm instead of breaking bending without breaking is uh You're moving slowly and deliberately just slow everything down And if you're a crazy person like me and you're doing 10 things at one time because you're constantly multitasking What I find that for me That's the moment when okay stop that for a second and just focus on one task Just focus right now on you know, I can remember having it happen to me and I was working out of thermostat I was repairing a thermostat um That was being very handy and uh, I remember I just had to think I started to get that Derealized feeling and I was very off balance and if I moved my head too fast It was all that visual disturbance I remember just thinking to myself Okay, because I was also while I was working in the thermostat I was thinking about six other tasks that I need to do I had to let those go and just focus on just hold the screwdriver now put it in the screw head now Now turn it and it's it's there's something therapeutic about that slow everything down breathe in Breathe out take a step put the screwdriver down sit down read the instructions, you know And you slow it down you get very deliberate and this is how you do it And you just let that storm rage at you and just keep Just keep moving fluidly slowly deliberately and breathing and that is how essentially this to the symptoms like Bring it. I'm still gonna keep going. You cannot stop me and curiously The slower you move the more deliberately you move the more you try to be graceful in your movement and in your thoughts Even the slower you go and the gentler you go the stronger you actually are in the face of the symptoms So racing against them or beating up against them or running up against them doesn't work You have to take the ups you have to be soft in the face of the onslaught. Yeah That's why I said I sometimes see people say like, okay, just breathe just breathe But like don't try to desperately relax don't desperately breathe to try and relax Just be like it doesn't really matter that you're feeling anxious. That's That's the point. It doesn't really matter if you're relaxed all your anxious like just Just accept whatever state you're in, you know, like you don't have to desperately get from this anxious state to this relaxed state. You just Just carry on doing what you do in any way, you know, like You can function quite well in a really anxious state, believe it or not You know, I have been at lunch meetings and in meetings with an office full of people Sitting around a conference table when I have been in the middle of raging panic Yeah, I've been on stage, you know, everyone looking at me and I'm playing the solo Singing and singing I'm trying to get my breath, you know, and just feeling like I'm gonna pass out or explode or just Lose my mind every single, you know And um, no, I was great and everyone's like, oh an amazing gig. It's just like, are you kidding me? I thought I was gonna lose it I remember doing a career day thing at my kid's elementary school not to get off on a tangent But I get invited to do career day my my daughter was in like fourth grade These are some young kids and I had did a slideshow and I was an interesting guy because I'm in like the internet technology business And so I wasn't you know, like a plumber or something that they've seen before So the kids were all really interested. They're all looking at me. The teachers are all there. There's like three classes I am just at the edge of I just want to jump out the window Like I was having the worst panic attack I'd had in a very long time But you know, I just had to keep reminding myself Oh, well, just keep doing the slides and keep keep talking about what you're talking about and answering their questions It's amazing how it went away in like seven or eight minutes and no one had any idea No one had any idea Even my husband doesn't can't tell sometimes, you know, I mean, I'm just like look at me Do I look all right, you know, if we're about to step into a party or something I'd be like, but look, you know, I look crazy on my sweatshirt if I go and read it And he's just like, I don't know what you're talking about I've had that experience many times I'm like, hey, right, I'm in the middle of a swing and panic attack right now And the person that I'm with will invariably say you are Like, yeah So that's a really good point. I think part of floating is just You could you can operate just fine even in the midst of raging panic You can still keep just living. It's all right I think one of the biggest sort of issues that people can run into with this is that if you sort of drop everything around you to sort of focus on Getting better or you know, like to focus on your anxiety in some ways. It's good because it's good to like Put everything away and be like, okay, I am going to get myself better But you can also fall into like a I haven't got anything else to do and so all I'm thinking about all day every day is this anxiety Now I feel like this and now I feel like this and now I feel like this and if I walk here I feel like this and and that's kind of like not very helpful as well So I think it's really important to try and keep doing other things and especially with other people because if you try and Hold yourself together. I think it's actually better than just, you know, like letting yourself feel how you want to You know, like behaving how you want to behave, you know, like I think it's kind of good to have to sort of like Try and hide it because in some ways it sort of It makes you do carry on and it makes you not pay so much respect to those symptoms, you know Instead of just being like now I feel like this just like well Okay, I do but I've got this thing to do now and I've got to talk to this person or you know, whatever it is I just think it's important even if it's like I know lots of people have to stop working or something but like if you just join a Something or like a pottery class or you know, like anything that yeah anything that has like a social sort of interaction or that you You know, or if you work at home, but you give yourself deadlines that you've got to do like just You just try and stick to them no matter what and you say like this anxiety I'm not going to let it Tick take every part of my life and so I'm going to try and at least do these bits of my life Whether I'm feeling anxious or whether I'm not, you know And um, and um if you can try and but that's the whole point, isn't it? I mean if otherwise people would just still be Right It's so easy to say but it's it's again. It's like a subtle It's a subtle thing. I think that is really one of the most excellent points. I've heard in a very long time And I think learning how to do these things that she talks about in the book and that we're talking about Really needs to be to the best of your ability And I think sometimes you have to push yourself a little bit more than you think you can do it Has to be more integrated into what your life is supposed to be as opposed to Let me put everything else on hold and fix this because I've seen people do that I you know, I think it would be best if I just drop out of school this semester and take the next three months to focus on fixing this Yeah, I agree with you not so much It's probably better to try and integrate these things into Living your normal life or the life you want to live So yeah, you can totally focus on fixing yourself while you're doing this other stuff I mean, maybe drop some if you've got loads on it like maybe You might need to cut back a little bit because you're you're thinking and these these are skills that you're learning as you go But completely dropping out retreating and saying well I'm just going to work on my anxiety for the next three months And then I'm going to get back into like the world is is not a good idea So this really these are integrative things I think they need to be integrated into your your daily life if possible So just keep trying to live your life and work on these things at the same time and she talks about Masterly inactivity. I love this phrase. Yeah, that's that do nothing thing And and learning to do nothing and I think when we talk about doing nothing doing nothing It could truly mean there for me. I know I could literally do nothing. I could literally Just sit in the chair and be blank While while I'm experiencing these things But it doesn't necessarily mean doing absolutely nothing. You might just breathe Or work on some basic meditation or relax your muscles So you're learning how to do when she means inactivity She means inactivity with regard to trying to control your state Like yeah fight off the symptoms make them go away. Stop them from happening You know, stop your heart from racing. Stop being dizzy. No I think masterly inactivity refers to just getting really good at Either doing nothing just letting them come and go Or just doing those very basic deliberate things that are going to get you to float through this and I think what you'll find is your your version of masterly inactivity will change over time Yeah, at first You're you're actively doing the breathing exercises. You're actively doing the muscle relaxation exercises You're actively trying to remind yourself of meditation skills. Just let the thought go let it come let it go You're working on it because that's like you're new at it But as time goes on you truly become the master of With respect to your anxiety symptoms or your panic at the moment. You truly are are being inactive With respect. Yeah, so I could still be shopping and putting things in my shopping cart And being active in that part of my brain while being completely inactive when it comes to the anxiety that I'm feeling at the moment Yeah, and that's that that's the masterly inactivity. I love I've forgotten that she uses that phrase It's a really good masterly in actually learning the right way to do nothing in a way Or learning how not to like react to your symptoms in a masterly kind of way This is a really good line. She says as one young man said I feel I must stand on guard if I were to let go I'm sure something would snap. It is absolutely necessary for me to keep control and hold myself together And like so when he was obliged to talk to strangers, he would dig his nails into his palms Oh my god, I was the master of nails into palms And like and try to control his trembling body and conceal his state of nervous tension And he would watch the clock anxiously wondering how much longer he could keep up this masquerade without cracking And what she's saying is is you don't need to do that You don't need to be so tense against it You're not holding yourself back from anything because if you actually let go it's this first thing we said at the beginning You just sit in your chair and you relax and you slump into you relax into the anxiety It actually can't get worse. It feels like it's going to get worse just before you do it But when you actually do it, it It doesn't it doesn't know because you're not holding you that's and that's it is a really good quote too Like I have to hold myself together. I have to keep it together. You're not keeping anything together You know and I have to keep watch of myself Right because what are you going to stop from happening? So think of a couple of different things number one Once you're feeling those things too late the adrenaline is already in your bloodstream It's doing what it's designed to do So you're not going to stop it. It already happened and you're not going to make it any go away any faster by hanging on and trying Or I gotta keep myself together here. My heart is racing or I gotta keep it together. You're actually making it worse You're prolonging it is what you're doing You're not making it worse because we talked about that like your hands can't tingle any more than they already tingle But you could think you're prolonging it longer, right? So I think in this situation worse probably doesn't mean intensity. It probably means duration And so if you think about that and say well if I let go Is this going to get worse? No, because like I said your hands can't tingle any more than they already do You can't be dizzier than you already are and your legs can't wobble any more than they already are You're ready at the worst. So what you're actually going to if you fight it You're going to make it worse in terms of duration. It'll it'll keep going whereas If you don't do anything it will go away faster because adrenaline will dissipate and no more will be added I wish that I'd has like a megaphone just to sort of play into my own ear and go like everything you're doing is making this just like You're doing this you are doing this everything you're doing is wrong. Damn it. Yeah, you're rubbish at this stop trying to do anything You suck at this right and you know what really crap but trying to make yourself feel better So just stop trying to do it. You are rubbish at this And in a way that's you know, I think we make a joke out of it But it's probably in a way your body is our bodies are telling us that like dude you suck at this Like just sit down and relax and and I like your heart should be screaming like just sit down and relax And I promise I'll go I got this I'll go back to beating like it's 60 beats per minute As soon as I can I got this just chill out dude. You are horrible. It's you cannot make me do this So, you know, I think probably and especially if you're in that situation where you felt like I've tried everything I I do this I do this I do it still fail badly Yeah, your body is telling you that you suck at trying to control that You know, because we do we can't micromanage that process when it happens it happens So let's just decrease the duration and when you discover that you can decrease the duration almost on demand All of a sudden you are now in control without being in control You've gained control without actually controlling a damn thing Right, you can't stop it starting. I can't stop it starting. I'm sure you can't stop it starting But once it starts, I can stop it continuing by just doing nothing And and so in the end what have we controlled if we use this method in chapter six of this book We have actually taken control, but we're controlling something different, right? So I'm not controlling my heart rate I'm not controlling my hands. I'm not controlling my eyes. I'm not making my body feel any differently But I'm going to stop those things from lasting too long and then suddenly I do feel like I'm back in control Like oh, yeah, look what I look what I did You know what I did and that feeling and you know it because you have been there and I see the smile on your face right now And I think it's almost universal when we talk about this thing I smile you smile that feeling the very first time I ever and this book was a life changer for me I know I said that early on and when we started doing this Sitting in my mother's like 1984 Ford Escort. Yeah, I'm a little I'm old Um And I remember I had read the book the night before and everything was the whole hell was breaking loose on me My heart was racing. Well, I was having a hard time breathing and I'm like, okay This is what she talked about and I remember literally closing my eyes and just sinking back in this the seat of this car in the driveway at my house and And like okay, here I go and it was it was terrifying It was like a huge leap of faith and I remember after like just a couple of minutes even It might even been less than that suddenly feeling like all right This is actually the thing. This is this is doing it and that I will never that feeling will never leave me Yeah, it's like you've got Yes, all of a sudden I felt absolutely armor plated like you can you got nothing on me I got this and It's it's a thing So even if you've been you know, we'll try and wrap it up And I think even if you have been working hard at this for a year or two years or 10 years or six months Whatever it is and you keep saying I don't know what it is. I'm doing my exposure. I'm getting at it, but it's still it's still not working I think it's a good indicator and I don't know what your thoughts are this I'd like to hear it But it's a good indicator that you really haven't made the mental leap to truly accepting and believing that this is the way Yeah, you know, if you are saying I don't know what to do about this. I go out walking every day and I still feel anxious I think the indicator is you have not Made that leap of faith and in the end there is a leap of faith and there's courage involved. We talked about that too Yeah, you know, so just to me it must mean that's that nuance, you know Yeah, if you're going out and you're walking every day and you're still feeling it after, you know, ages It must mean that you're not Except you're just white knuckling your way through that walk You're not going like I'm feeling anxious on this walk, but I'll just carry on walking whilst feeling anxious Yeah Because in the end if you're going out and walking every day or whatever it is that you're doing And I'm not saying that it's all that what you're doing is for nothing But I truly believe that this this chapter 6 of this book That nuance of truly accepting truly truly truly believing that you're in no danger And accepting the symptoms and the feelings as as normal at the moment. This is my normal So stop stop comparing that anxious state to your normal state at the moment This is my normal for now for the next minute five minutes 10 minutes. It doesn't matter When you truly truly accept that then you go out for your walk and you feel anxious You actually don't feel the need to judge that walk of failure It doesn't it doesn't matter. I've gone through your entire days Feeling very anxious and I don't get to the end of the day and feel the need to say like oh today You know today was a setback because I was anxious today No, I think that's That's it in the end. This is it. This is the linchpin of everything. You have to believe that to be true So there you go All right, so we were going to try and keep it to like 20 minutes. We're now at like 50 minutes These are always I cannot do a podcast. That's less than like 45 minutes long Billy on my own it's not possible. So We'll we'll we're going to keep doing these right like yeah, definitely. We're going to try try this So What I would say is there's more good chapters. There's more there's more the next one is a good one too chapter 7 is a good one too So I don't know how regular we're going to be Holly and I have decided we're going to do our best to try to be very regular Maybe it'll be in every other week thing if we could bang out a couple episodes at a time It'll be a weekly thing. We'll see but we will get through the book And what I would say is if you if you don't have the book go get it if you want to follow along Honestly, get it just get the book. It's like yeah, it's three quid or something It is you can find a copy for five us dollars in a lot of different places. It would be the best fight So, you know what don't buy Whatever you buy at starbucks tomorrow buy this book instead if it's really good And what I would say is as always I mean, so, you know, I I'm on it's that anxiety guy com you can comment right there I'm sure holly follows along Facebook.com slash that anxiety guy on twitter that anxiety guy and also there's a discussion group now that focuses on podcast It's awesome. It's very awesome. And I'm I'm going to plug it here and I know holly's been really active in it and Really helpful Everybody's been so encouraging and helping each other and rooting each other on it. I freaking love that I love that. It's just the most awesome thing. So if you find my page on facebook facebook.com slash that anxiety guy Like the page you'll see at the top is a link to the discussion group. It's called the anxiety 101 podcast forum And it's actually the the podcast i'm doing with billy from anxiety united, but we can absolutely discuss these things in there too Yeah, so it's a friend. It's all in there. So Join the group. It's a closed group. So people in your new show up in your friend's news That's right. They won't know that it's all like pride. So you have to ask to join the group We'll get you in and uh, you can join the discussion or just lurk and and see what people are doing, but It's a good. I I think it might be the best place I I keep telling people like uh comment on the youtube video feel free to comment I'll I'll answer you know and stuff But uh, I think that is probably the best place because you get the benefit of other people's questions And people are answering each other's questions and there's just something very positive about that group that I I'm loving right now So Yeah, me too. That is a deal. So I'll put the links like in the video description and stuff We're on my webpage and all that stuff. So holly. This is so cool. I'm really happy that we're doing this again Thanks for having me. Yeah. Yeah so You guys come back for the next episode watch like social media. We'll let you know when it's coming out and We'll get you the next chapter chapter seven next Cheers