 Hi, I'm Jackson with Cointelegraph and I'm here with Dan Tapiero, founder of DTAP Capital and TNT Holdings. How are you doing today, Dan? I'm doing great. Great to be here in Paris. Fantastic. So, let's talk about crypto. What's going on in the macroeconomic environment right now? Tell me about it. Okay, let's get right into it. Let's get that separate macro and crypto. They're connected, but let's go. The macro, I think, look, I think we're at an extreme in terms of this panic and fear about the rates backing up. I think I showed you just before there was a chart that showed the devastation in the bond market is as serious as it was in 1994, which was just a terrible year for anyone who remembers it. Again, that was the worst year for bonds since 1929 and eventually led to the collapse of Mexico as they were leveraged. That was in early 95. And so I'm thinking now someone is feeling a lot of pain. I mean, we know that China, their growth numbers have dropped quite a lot. The central bank came out yesterday and said that they're open to easing measures, etc. So maybe China is feeling a lot of pain there. But my point is that I just don't think the Fed is going to do as many rate hikes as is priced into the market. And so I would suspect at least in the sort of medium term that the rate backup is kind of, you know, has taken its course. And that's not to say that rates can't go higher over the next several years for whatever reason. But I just think for now we've reached into an extreme that is just too much. And what that would suggest is really that, I mean, as I said, Bitcoin and I think cryptocurrency generally, also the equity market have held in relatively well given this backup. And so if the rates start to fall again as inflation falls in the next six months, I think we could have a nice run actually in both inequity and in the Bitcoin, Ethereum, cryptocurrency. But I, you know, I hate to equate those two, but it's been sort of it's being driven that way a little bit now. Yeah, we have seen a fair amount of correlation, I think between the equity markets and crypto. So maybe it's safe to assume that they will continue while we have this crazy environment right now. Would you say that? Yeah, I mean, I think so, but I also think it's important in a way to ignore because over the medium term, there's absolutely no correlation between the stock market and crypto. I mean, like, I mean, this is obvious if you look at the last 10 years, the S&P 500 is actually down 99% against Bitcoin. People don't realize this, but same thing against Ethereum and actually against quite a few of the assets in this digital asset ecosystem. So everything in the fiat world has depreciated roughly 99%. So I wouldn't call that a correlation, at least in the long term. Or insanely negatively correlated. Yeah, yeah. I was mostly speaking about short tier. I know. It's so annoying. You have the CNBC and all of these little punty guys talking about every little price squiggle. But in the long term, yeah, there's a massive negative correlation. And that's why we're here. We're here for the long term, which ties into the name of your holdings actually, 10T holdings, right? Right. 10 trillion. Tell us about that. Okay. All right. Well, so that's a, in a way, a funny story. When I was launching 10T, which, as you know, is a private equity fund. We invest only in the mid to late stage companies in the digital asset ecosystem. And that's all we do. When I was launching that in the middle of 19, the value of the DAE at the time, and that's the value of Bitcoin, Ethereum, all the cryptocurrencies and all the equity in the space was at about 300 billion. And I thought at least at the time I was doing something that was sort of more bold than at least any fund manager I've known to do. And that is to put my view, which was quite an extreme view, into the name of the fund. And so 300 billion at the time I thought, okay, the space can 30X in 10 years. And so it's a private equity fund. 10T in 10 years was kind of our mantra. And, you know, at the time, I mean, a 30X, you know, we were thinking, okay, well, maybe, maybe not. Okay, well, the joke of the matter is that I'm going to be wrong about it because we're at 3T today. And there's almost no chance we're going to hit 10T in the next eight years. I mean, we're likely heading more to 20, 30, 40 trillion. So, unbelievably, I was too bearish. That's how crypto is, right? I know that's crypto. I know that is crypto. The bear is getting slaughtered always. So, tell me about your portfolio. What are we looking at? How much is Bitcoin? How much is Ethereum? Personally, that's different than in the fund. I mean, I have... I want to hear both. Well, originally, in the beginning of 19, I did 80, 20 Bitcoin Ethereum. Personally. Yeah, and this is in cold storage, locked away. I don't think about it. It's not in my head. Ten notes. Yeah, and no, I don't trade it. It's pointless. Yeah, I'm a serious hodler in that sense. And of course, as you know, since then, the percentage has changed dramatically. I mean, they've both done great, but Ethereum's outperformed in that portfolio. My focus, though, I mean, 100 percent of my focus now is on TNT, which is building a portfolio of these mid to late stage companies. And now we have over a billion dollars in assets under management. We've invested in 17 companies, companies that you would know, including Kraken, Huabi, Bitfury, Derabit, Figure, Figment, Yuga Labs is when we did recently, Anamoka. Again, it's on our website. We just punched TNT fund and we've listed all the companies and quite a diverse group of investors now. And I would say we're one of the first funds that really has, I would say, you know, super high quality institutional investors as well. The Michigan Pension Fund, Merce, they invested 40 million dollars with us. And their second fund, we have a Texas, Texas state institution that's also invested. So, you know, we've had very good demand and interest. And I think these are, you know, we're kind of a gateway a little bit for the DA broadly and I say that because many of my investors don't own any Bitcoin or Ethereum, don't own anything. And private equity is something they broadly understand and have exposure to. You know, even though they may not understand crypto, they have a tech allocation as well. And so, you know, we're their toe dip and they get to learn about the space through us. And we explain things pretty clearly. I mean, I've said this often. I feel like I'm a translator, like my real job is just translating what's going on in the crypto world to the people in the legacy world, right? So, yeah, and that's been very exciting and we're growing. And just like everyone in the space, it's like everything's about speed. Always drinking from a fire hose every day, all day. I like to say that a day in crypto is like a month in the stock market. Yeah, yeah. I mean, in actuality, it's like five because of the hours. I always say crypto trades 8,100 hours a year and the stock market is 1,600. So it literally is five. But then if you want to increase network effect, if you include network effect and the virality of that, you might maybe get to your number. Yeah, I know. Global all the time. 24 sevens, 24 sevens. Yeah, I want to go back to your personal portfolio, though, because we talked to Bitcoin, Ethereum percentages. Are there any other things circulating there? Like, what's the big picture look like? That's it. That's it. Yeah. And it's a way. I don't think about it. It's not part of my daily, you know, I think, look, I and I've said this many times in interviews, you know, starting even two years ago. I think Bitcoin can get to somewhere between, you know, three, four, five hundred thousand without that much difficulty over the next sort of three, four, five years. And that's sort of my view. And, you know, I'd stick to that. I said it when it was at eight thousand. I said it at twenty thousand. It's now 40. The biggest danger, I think, for people and again, many people are not don't have experience trading markets or portfolio management. It's extremely difficult, right, generally speaking. And in this world, it's 10 X the difficulty, the volatility, the number of variables that you have to account for. I mean, I personally would not be trading the space unless I had, you know, a team of 10 to 15 guys working with me around the clock, just like when I, you know, in the old days traded the macro markets. It's just too complex, too difficult. You know, that being said, if you have a proper trading outfit and you're, you know, you're, you're organized to trade, that's different. But for what I call civilians, you know, non-market people, I think the best strategy is just to hold. It's a it's a great savings technology. You often hear that discussed in the space. So I know it's I'm really sort of keep it simple, stupid. Yeah. And yeah, I just I've got that. And then I've got, you know, 10 T and the companies. But I yeah, I just, you know, I always say you can't do everything. Right. So I tend to stay very focused. Yeah. Yeah. People want the big gains right away. Yeah. Patience. Well, yeah. I mean, if I were 23, maybe I would be, you know, winging Solana around and who knows what. But I, you know, that I don't see the return. The the money, dollar return based on how much my energy input is is much greater. Having a sort of five to 10 year investment horizon. Like I I know that what we're going to make on that for the energy output will be very high. Yeah. Right. So how are you positioned for the rest of 2022? I mean, are you, you know, why are you showing out? No, I don't have cash. Yeah. No, I don't I don't have cash. I think we're broadly in the, you know, this is broadly the low area for Bitcoin and Ethereum. And again, the space kind of trades off that. I consider everything outside of that as really venture projects. And I'm not a venture capitalist. You know, I'm not picking apart the code and looking at the different chains and making assessments about, you know, where the greatest utility is. And there are a lot of brilliant guys, you know, who are doing that. All the names, you know, you know, Andre Sin and, you know, Paulie, you know, all of these guys, right? So they're all they're all focused on that. But broadly, the big macro wind at your back structural change that's happening is still happening. And it's happening at light speed. And it doesn't matter again, whether the Fed is at zero or one or two. It's almost it's irrelevant as far as I can see. And the stock market, whether it's up 20 percent from here down 20 percent, I don't think has much material impact. I think there's going to be a dramatic outperformance, as I said before, of assets in this new digital world versus the fiat world. And I would just say the fiat world is about five hundred trillion dollars of assets, value of assets. And that's stocks and real estate and bonds. And the DA is now about two and a half trillion. So I within five years, it's not going to be five hundred to two and a half. I think it'll probably be, you know, five thirty to forty or something like that. You know, I so I don't see much. I don't see it going down because, of course, they can stimulate and create infinite fiat and that, of course, boosts the stock and real estate markets. But the digital asset world, you know, as I've said, I mean, I'm going to be wrong about Tenty. You know, I got I got that wrong. Lowball, you know, I was saying before that I was on at the Blockworks panel. It was only maybe six, seven months ago. I was on there with Dan Moorhead, Pantera and Mark Yusko, who are two old buddies I've known forever. And they asked that question, what's the value going to be? And Dan kicked it off with 50 trillion in, I think it was in five years and I was like blown away a little bit because I thought like Tenty was a big call. And then Mark said, I think it was 30 or 40 T. So I had to bump up my my call there just not to be completely blown away by those guys. So I think I was 25 or 30. But yeah, there's there's nothing that can keep up with the growth that's going on in this space. Yeah, it is explosive. Crypto does love to have these big, big predictions. But there's a reason why it's happened. It's happening for sure. Are there any final comments you'd like to make? No, I would just say that, you know, it's interesting being here in Paris, each of the different regions, I would say US, Europe, Asia, they have a slightly different take on what I would broadly call Bitcoin, crypto, blockchain, digital assets. You know, I think the space is still searching for how to define itself. But in each one of the different regions, there are different focal points and interesting companies growing up doing different things here. I think this is a little more NFT focused, I would say, generally here. Then let's say in the US, maybe or in Asia. Also, you know, you have very strong creative industries here. And so I think that the uptake has been pretty quick in that regard. So, yeah, I just so I would say remind people that crypto is global. Ninety percent of total cryptocurrency volume is outside of the US. And so they're just, you know, many opportunities all over the world right now. So anyway, I'll talk to you next in Seoul or wherever. Sure, at the next one. I don't know exactly, but yeah, we'll be there. All right, fantastic. I'm Jackson Dumont, and this has been a Cointelegraph interview with Dan Tapiero. Thank you.