 Welcome to the wide world of eSports, the show devoted to all things eSports. I'm your host, Catherine Noor. Today our topic is eSports player and talent representation. My guest is attorney and author, Justin Jacobson. Welcome, Justin. Hey, thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here. All right, so Justin, I understand that you represent players. Yup, I work with professional gamers and streamers and coaches and casters and just different individuals in the eSports space. How long have you been doing that? So I've been involved as an entertainment and eSports attorney for the last decade and about the last five years I've really started to focus on eSports and gaming, working with different players and brands and different companies in the space. All right, and so you're, you're located in a place where eSports is really big in New York City, right? Can you up them up here? Okay, so what do you think, so what do you think the most important issue is right now for players? I think the biggest thing is just how the agreements have become a bit more balanced and how you're able to really understand what the long term ramifications are and they're a little bit less one side than they might have been a few years ago initially on when I was working in the space. Do you think that players are a little bit more sophisticated in what they're doing now or, you know, has that evolved in any way? Yeah, I think as more, you know, attorneys and managers and other professionals have been getting in and as the stakes have been increasing, I think the players, especially the smarter ones are really understanding the need and value that a professional can really bring. And you've kind of seen the agreements change with it, that they've become a bit more balanced. Certain things that a team might have insisted on previously, they're a little bit more lenient and there's a little bit more give than there might have been previously. Do players need attorneys or can they represent themselves? I mean, anyone can represent themselves, but I think at the end of the day, when you're, you know, a pretty unsophisticated individual signing a 20, 30, 40 page agreement, you might need someone who understands it. And I think someone who deals with major teams and major players and different games on a daily, if not weekly basis, you need someone who understands that. And I think most people who have never dealt with an agreement before, you get handed some 20 page document, you're probably not going to understand most of it. I would be shocked if many of the players know exactly what they're signing. So, you know, I think not having one is a huge disservice. Sure. And, you know, I'm an attorney as well, and I know that we're fools if we represent ourselves, even I am. So it is good to have another person take a look at everything. And I think people are sort of conditioned to just, you know, someone hands them a contract and they really want to have that deal. I mean, they feel like they're operating at a much, much more disadvantaged situation. So there's a tendency not even to read the contract and to just sign it. So why should a player actually take this seriously, read the contract and have legal representation? I mean, the biggest thing is if, you know, you're 18 years old, what you sign is going to be enforceable. And the amount of money and time and stress it might take to get out of a pretty unfair, unbalanced deal might just not be worth it. You know, I've dealt with players that I've read their agreement and I'm like, how did you sign this? You know, the team can drop you whenever they want, but you can't terminate it ever. And I'm just like, I don't even necessarily know if this is enforceable. I think if it went to court, certain things would be struck out. But to have the wherewithal and the resources to go through the process, as we know, is substantial. And it's not something that most players, especially those who aren't in like these top tier games, have the ability to do. So they just kind of, for better or worse, get screwed. Yeah. And so what particular contractual provisions do you think are most concerning to a player? I think a big thing, and it's been a trend recently, has kind of been the name and likeness rights and just kind of have expansive. Some of them might be with some of the teams and kind of as a player representative, being able to kind of try to limit it. And especially when you're no longer on the team, you need to have certain ways to make sure that you're no longer affiliated, that they're not using your photo on their website in front and center on their press materials. So you need to build this stuff in or else they might be able to use your name and likeness as perpetuity for whatever they want. And that could be a problem if you're trying to do other things going forward. Sure. And what are some of the more bizarre provisions that you see in contracts? I mean, I've just seen some pretty insane buyouts or like the ability for them to just cut half your money if you don't do enough streaming hours when it's just like you shouldn't necessarily be able to take half of your salary if you miss it by an hour or two, you know, there has to be some kind of compensation in the middle ground here. And, you know, some of these agreements are very overbearing or, you know, give them the right to have as many press opportunities and sponsorship opportunities on behalf of their team. A lot of the sponsorship exclusivity clauses are very broad and try to really carve out most every category you want. So it's just kind of understanding that, hey, if I sign this agreement, especially with a major team, there may be certain brands and deals that I might not be able to do or might be blocked from even if my team doesn't necessarily have a competing brand in it already. So what happened with for players when COVID hit and did their contracts impact how things proceeded in any way? Well, yeah, I mean, I think that luckily a lot of it was able to kind of shift online. But, you know, if you're a player who's most of your income is from in person tournament to doing personal appearances or all that stuff, you know, if you're a commentator, most of your money is earned when you're doing these live events. So now shifting to, you know, a purely online format, a lot of opportunities were smaller, you know, brands that might have done a big on-site activation don't necessarily have to spend that money. That money might not be part of the event prize pool that it might have been. So it kind of really changed some of the structure and people's abilities to earn income. Did COVID impact you as an attorney in this space? I mean, yeah, I think with everyone, there's the good in the bad. It definitely, especially at the beginning, was just a lot of like total uncertainty, what's it going to be? And, you know, coming from the more traditional entertainment and music space, a lot of the people I was dealing with, it was just like everything was on pause and they just didn't know when it would resume. But then, luckily, a lot of more of the eSports and gaming stuff started to pick up. And I think a lot of the more traditional entertainment people were kind of crossing the picket line, as they say, starting to really value what was going on here and seeing how live streaming and Twitch and all of these multimedia platforms can really still get really high engagement and still kind of keep you on the pulse with your fans and the community. And you could make a lot of money doing it. Sure. And so you mentioned when you were talking about those players who are 18 years old and that the contracts are enforceable or probably enforceable for them. What about players who are minorities that they're minors and that they're under 18 years old? How do you handle them? Well, yeah, I mean, I've definitely worked with 16 and 17 year old pro gamers that with a 14 year old pro Overwatch player. And it's like, you have to really involve their parents. I don't, you know, I wouldn't be involved in anything if their parents wasn't at least on the phone, involved in the communication on the email thread. And most of the time, they're really kind of almost dealing with you on behalf of their child. And, you know, when you're doing that, you kind of have to involve them in the discussion and really make, you know, the gamer, the minor feel like they're part of it and that they feel comfortable with it because for most of them, so probably be the first legal agreement they ever signed. And then the more the enforceability sign, it's, we always know that, you know, a contract under 18 is voidable in most situation. So, you know, then it comes to the whole entertainment world where you could potentially go to court to get them to like make the contract even more enforceable and stronger and as they do in some of the, you know, Hollywood child actors that exist. So, but you just have to be aware of this and, you know, really encourage them to get their parents involved. And, you know, I think that having that parental support at home makes everyone feel comfortable in it. Have you had sanity emancipation of minor actions or any legal guardianship actions in this space in order to have the minor proceed on their own or with another person other than their parent? Well, no, I don't that's not really kind of happened yet. I think most of the gamer parent relationship is pretty supportive. You know, I work with this, you know, coalition of parents and eSports who are really just kind of like cheerleaders for their children that are doing this. And, you know, I think that the dynamic is really wholesome. But we all know with family, sometimes family and business, they might take a turn and, you know, people start talking and, you know, these things happen. But I think right now it seems like a lot of the familiar relationships is pretty good. Well, that's really good to hear. OK, so let's move on to streamers. Is our streamers in a different situation as players or how do you deal with them when negotiating contracts? Well, yeah, I mean, I think a lot of teams have kind of become this trend of signing, you know, streamers and content creators under their organization. And there's agreements are a little different. You know, they're more of almost a promotional piece where it's like we want you streaming for a lot of hours so that our team name is up there. And people are seeing our sponsors and you're just kind of clocking miles. Whereas a pro gamer, it's a little bit more like how you do competitive focus. We want you to win tournaments and leagues and, you know, finish, you know, in the top placement and kind of achieve high success. Whereas with the content creator, it's a little bit different. So the way that they judge your success is different. And, you know, you aren't really going to be competing in tournaments, but that's not going to really be part of what the team is relying on you for income. I think that that's like a big thing that we started to see, especially as brands and, you know, sponsors became even more prevalent and important in, you know, the eSports world. And can you describe the change that you've seen with brands and with sponsors as they have dealt with COVID and, you know, shutdowns of traditional sports and have ventured in to eSports? Well, yeah, I mean, I think that it really kind of proved the model. It really gave a lot of these companies, especially the more non-andemic traditional ones, a little bit more of the heave ho in the right direction. I think a lot of them were kind of hearing, OK, we've got to get into eSports, gaming, Twitch, Ninja, you know, they're hearing all these buzzwords, but they didn't really get it. But once everything kind of shut off and it was like the only game in town was professional NBA 2K league on ESPN or the NASCAR racing on, you know, sim racing or just really that was all that was going on. They really just really took notice and really kind of felt like this is something they had to, you know, kind of dig in and get more involved in. And what's really unique to me, especially dealing it from, you know, the talent influencer side is every brand has different things they want. Different metrics they look at, different social media platforms that are important to them, you know, some value YouTube, some value TikTok, some don't care about TikTok, you know, some only want your Instagram or your Twitter. So it's really just unique to see how each brand approaches the space totally differently and kind of what they're looking for. And, you know, I think that's been the biggest thing I've noticed, and especially with COVID, it's just kind of increased where they're looking for more opportunities to have this digital imprint. And, you know, kind of stay on everyone's hearts and minds. Sure. So we do have a question from a viewer. Do you have to be privileged to start a career in gaming? And the second question is, have you ever heard of a Cinderella story where an underdog became successful? Well, yeah, I mean, I don't think you necessarily have to be privileged. I mean, you know, there's a ton of games that are on mobile that are, you know, called duty mobile just announced a $2 million prize pool and there's a bunch of other mobile games that are have multimillion dollar prize pools involved. And even console games, there's substantial prize there. So you don't necessarily have to have a high game PC to be able to earn an income doing this. And to stream, you just need a laptop and a webcam and, you know, some personality and pizzazz. And, you know, I think anyone, no matter what economic background you come from, can do that. And then in terms of kind of the underdog story, that's how half of eSports is made. I feel like, you know, there's always these new teams, new players that kind of come out of nowhere. There's always a new 17 year old star, the new 16 year old that they just brought over from Korea for the Overwatch team. There's this whole young upcoming ecosystem the same way there is kind of in European soccer and the more, you know, football league that's going on other places. So, you know, there's always these stories and it's really kind of everyone should be encouraged to do it because I don't think, you know, income or any of that is really a barrier as much as you might think it is. Sure. And, you know, all over the world, people are using doing mobile gaming a lot more than North America. And so, you know, I think there is accessibility and certainly Asia is huge in eSports. So, anyway, let's shift over to your book and as an author, I understand how exciting that is to author your first book. Well, actually, I should ask you, is this your first book? Yeah, this is my first published book. I've gotten some law review articles, but yeah, this is the first long one. Perfect. So what gave you the inspiration to write it? Well, I kind of always felt there was like this inherent knowledge gap in what was going on. I felt like what you could find out there in the public space was just not adequate. It didn't really kind of give the true level of what's going on. And over the last few years of working on this on really the highest level, you start to see a lot of patterns, a lot of similarities, just a lot of stuff that really isn't publicly known. And in a lot of the more traditional entertainment and sports spaces, you can find a lot of this information that already exists. Whereas really in the esports and gaming space, it was scattered. And what was out there was just not in depth or really usable to the extent that it should be. And, you know, I kind of looked at it as like this is something that I wish existed when I was starting out and kind of wanted to give the next generation kind of a head start and kind of a good guide for where to go and what to learn. It's a lot like my story when I wrote my first book, a textbook on managing risk and sport and recreation. My thing was trying to write something that I would want to use and that would be helpful for me and it was kind of discovering, you know what it looked like when I put it together did you come up when as you wrote it and as you develop this did you come to some discoveries that you were surprised about. Yeah, I ended up learning a lot more. You know, I guess I guess I didn't realize a lot more things that I thought I knew that I didn't and that required more research and structuring and it was great because the amount of knowledge that I have now and the way it kind of unfolds allows me to really, you know, become a master of the material that, you know, I'm able to kind of teach it and different levels to different comprehension levels and I think that that's important, because everyone of all ages love games and I think that it's not going to be a trend that's going to change if anything it's probably going to just continue to increase. And I think that when you write a book you actually, you might not even be an expert before you write it but after you've written it and after you've done all the research, all the editing and everything you certainly become an expert so you know, as an expert in this field. Why don't you tell us what areas of law that you cover in the book and what you think is most important to a reader. So the book kind of looks at what I call the esports business ecosystem and I think that's really, you know, a really good baseline for everyone that's trying to get involved in this is to kind of understand who's involved, who the primary players are and how they make money. At the end of the day, this is all fun and games, but it's great to have a career and somebody that you're loving and passionate about as well. So that's kind of I think, you know, the introductory and then it kind of starts looking at the different legal issues so you're looking at, I went through actual property factors into, you know, esports and gaming trade Mars and copyrights and immigration and visas because such an international space that this kind of stuff happens all the time and you have to understand your US citizen and you're trying to go playing a tournament in Germany or vice versa. So that's the real limitations restrictions that you have to adhere to and then it kind of looks at, you know, business investments and tax write offs and some kind of things that if you're operating a team or if you're a streamer you might need to know whether it's, you know, writing off certain streaming expenses or a new camera or a new PC or some other piece of hardware that you use. And it's just kind of really thinking about the esports and the gaming and the streaming and everything you're doing in the space from a more business lens. Kind of looks at music licensing because we know that the MCA and that's been a whole big trend to try to really explain to people why you have to have licensed music why you can't just play a Drake song just because you want to and really then looking at employment and player unions and how that's all developing and really looking at licensing and how that plays into the different areas and then finally kind of the meat and potatoes is the contract chapter where we kind of life in through some major player agreements and coach and cast or deals and really just give you a look into what these deals might look like and how you might approach them and what everything means because, like I said it's not really out there, but once things start becoming industry custom and you know everybody's doing it kind of thing it really kind of becomes almost a template that you can replicate and be familiar with going forward. All right, so I would imagine that players and talent who you represent would benefit greatly from reading your book, is that right. I would say the book is kind of for all readers it's kind of intended for you know professionals, attorneys accountants business managers any of these individuals that are really trying to understand it, but also just a pro gamer someone trying to start a team or, you know a college student and really not just for lawyers or law students I, you know wanted to have something that was a lot more digestible, because I think that's important like if you want to embark on this journey as a streamer. Then you should know the different ways you might be able to make money and thinking okay well I can do merchandise maybe I can put my logo on some hats and t shirts you know you need to just kind of know what's at your disposal if you're going to really approach it properly. Sure, and I bought it, I, you know I intermittently will do a search on Amazon just to see what what's out there for e sports books, and I'll have to say that there isn't a lot. And that's how I came across yours, because it's fairly when was it published. It just came out in February so it's definitely hot off the press. Okay, so we're here at the right time. And you know I know that there are so many new people in this space. I mean, because 2020 brought in this whole new, you know, world for e sports and all these, all these brands and sponsors and and business people who realize that they had to venture into this incredible potentially money making space. And so, you know I think your book has come out at the right time for them to educate themselves. Would you agree. Yeah I mean if you're out there listening definitely pick up a copy of it I, I think if you're really, it's really for a beginner but it's also for someone that really is involved in it but might want to learn more about things they're not that familiar with, you know, I think a big question is a lot of people trying to start events and run a tournament they think they can just do it and all they have to do is create something online and tell people to sign up and it's a lot more complicated than that you have to get certain licenses and if it's an in person event there might be other, you know, insurance or other liabilities you have to think about so you know I really wanted to try to highlight some of these useful things if you're going to throw an event or if you're going to be on stream and doing these things you need to know these things because if you don't do them right, you can get you in trouble. And one of your chapters does address. I believe employment and immigration a bit is that right. Yep, we look at kind of the visas and the development of them in the programming space. Are you finding that there is you are addressing those issues as a lawyer with clients. Yeah, I'm definitely handling some different player and coach visas and you know dealing with these government agencies who really aren't that familiar with esports and gaming and, especially as a lot of new weeks are starting to come up that are just really established track record that some others might definitely been some hurdles but you know a lot of it is just education and that was kind of how it was when I started with a lot of the brands in the space it was just kind of explaining to them. Hey this is what's going on this that you can get involved in it this is what twitches, you know it's more than just fortnight and ninja which, you know seem to be the other buzzword up until recently and, you know I think that's kind of the next level is being able to get to these next wave of interested people. Sure. And so, you know one thing that I think is kind of interesting is a lot of times the first thing is telling them what esports is because some people don't even know. Right it's like, yeah it's not just, you know your YouTube videos it's this competitive video game and it's, you know kids playing games for millions of dollars where you know I was using the door to example for the international it's like, you go into the tournament and you could wake up a multimillionaire, like, literally overnight you make millions of dollars just from winning this gaming tournament and it really just kind of mind blowing. What are you tearing up right now for in person events. Yeah I mean I would say that a lot of people are kind of thinking that that's around the corner and I think that's pretty exciting to kind of get back to seeing interacting with people. And you know one thing a lot of people tell you from the esports world is that the land and the energy at these conventions that these live matches and even just the pain the game play itself is just a different level that online tournaments just really can't replicate it and you know logistics when you start having internet access and servers being located in different parts of the world that really starts to impact the gameplay which, you know is not what you know you want top level gameplay without any excuses and I think that's what the live events will kind of usher back in. Right. So, before we wrap it up I just want to ask you what, you know just like what advice would you give to players or streamers or talent, and those other people that you work with. When they're faced with a contract and with what they're faced with dealing with negotiating with a team. Well I'm sure you know what I'm going to say but I would say, you know get a lawyer or someone that kind of knows what they're doing I think you're putting yourself at a huge disadvantage if you're going into no one agreement by yourself, you have to realize that. Yeah, the team wants to sign you but the agreements are made by attorneys who are paid by them and whose job is protect the team and to make sure the agreement favors the team and is slanted in the team's favor and at the end of the day that's their job. You can't blame them for doing their job. So it's your job as an educated person is to get someone to protect you and to make sure that you feel right. And I would use this example to kind of wrap it up is, you should never feel bullied or pushed into an agreement, like you should be going into it happy and comfortable and feeling like this is a good relationship, because if a contract starts that way, especially in the talent is bad sour note. It doesn't usually get better. You know from there it usually goes downhill fast. So I think that, you know as a player or talent, you want to feel comfortable with what you sign, and you want to understand it. And I think if you don't understand it which most people don't, you got to get someone that does, because if you don't you're going to wake up and realize you signed something that really wasn't in the best interest and there's really nothing you can do about it. Okay, so before we sign off today, can you tell people how they can find you how they can find your book. And maybe reference your website. Yeah, so thank you so much for having me and everyone follow me on Twitter, Justin jesq my DMs are open I'm always happy to answer any questions and check out Jacobson firm calm we have useful articles and any ways to get in contact with me and purchase my book it's available everywhere books they're sold on Amazon and Google books is a hardcover softcover ebook. Well, thank you Justin, I appreciate you providing us so much good information. I pleasure thanks for having me. All right, so thank you to the viewer who sent in the questions and thank you for joining us today. Make sure to tune in. Next week, my guest will be Jeremy Packer the chief tech officer at ultimate gaming championship. See you then.