 What's up, what's up, what's up? I'm Brain Man Sean. And I'm Kory. And we are back with another episode of No Labels Necessary Podcast. You can catch us every Tuesday, every Thursday on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, wherever you stream your local podcast. This is the intersection of creativity and currency and today we have an extremely serious topic, a worthy topic that has to be discussed why society hates artists and how it leads to depression in so many cases. And even worse, in a lot of ways, it doesn't seem like it's gonna get any better because it's the nature of the beast of not only the music industry, but society as a whole. So I want to start with this stat right here. It says the normal population rate of depression is about 5%, but the rate among artists and writers in the various studies is between 15 and 50%. That's a huge gap, right? Now, this is on www.artisthub, no, www.artshub.com slash AU, shout out to Australia. So if you guys want to see more, we'll put like the article below. And I know there's a lot of other stats out there. So outside of knowing which one is the best one, which one is the most accurate, there's still one comment thread. There's a clear line between creativity and increased of depression. Artists are 18 times more likely to commit suicide based on some of the studies that I read up on, right? Now, first, the way we'll approach this episode, because I think, again, this is like really important in terms of a topic and we can, I want to structure it. First, let's use on a few reasons that it might be, but then there's some people at fault. The fans are at fault when we talk about the music industry specifically. The industry itself is at fault, but the artists have to take some accountability as well. And we're going to touch on each of those routes this, but first and foremost, why do you think that artists are more likely to be depressed? I think it's a large part of it. To be a good artist, you have to be in your head a lot, right? But the bad thing about being in your head a lot is that you can think yourself into situations that I don't want to say don't exist, but sometimes may not be as severe, you know what I'm saying? As it may seem, if you talk to people and got help about it, right? You kind of make the problem bigger than what it is. I think that a lot of artists would consider themselves to be empaths, right? Empaths of people that are seen to be the ones that take in others' emotions and then project or redirect. So it's like, if you're an artist and you make sad music and you got 10,000 kids telling you about how sad they are, every time you look at your comments and your messages or whatever, eventually it's gonna start to take effect on you. Even outside of that, even like artists that make positive music, like get those type of comments, right? Like you get people literally saying, like, bro, I love your music. You help me not do X, Y, Z to myself. You help you save me from this. And at some point that starts to add up, right? I think because, let's think about the average person, we might get to perspectives of like our friends, maybe like our family, right? So we might be taken into consideration, let's just like maybe 30 to 50 different perspectives and letting that infiltrate our lives versus like artists, especially big artists. Like you're being almost forced to take in the perspective of hundreds, if not thousands, if not tens of thousands of people, right? And like I said, at some point that naturally starts to take a toll on you, you know what I'm saying? So I think a lot of it is just being in their own head. A lot of artists don't properly take care of themselves, you know what I'm saying? Like it's been numerous studies that show that physical health can affect mental health, you know what I'm saying? A lot of artists feel like they can't. They don't have the time to take care of themselves because they're working on making things happen. So I think it's a bunch of different reasons, you know what I'm saying, to be honest. Yeah, it's definitely a culmination of reasons. And you touched on a couple. One of the main ones, the first one that you touched on was being in your own head. And you specifically talked about imagining situations, right? Or increasing the intensity of a situation in your own head is reality. And that's something that I'm familiar with. Like when we had that conversation with Wendy, that you just played that clip ironically, right? Or I was like, no man, I don't be listening to sad music and things like that because I know where my mind can go without that kind of stuff and just absorbing more. I know what it does for me. But I've had experiences in life because I have just a pretty creative lineage. And I just like have to compartmentalize. Cause I know like, man, you're mine. You just be walking on this nice creative journey. And then I can go down a little rabbit hole and slip. And I'm like, whoa, how did I get down here? And things can become, my imagination can be pretty wild, right? And then you're there. And you're there and trying to find your way out. And it's not just that personal, oh, my life sucks, right? That people think about that type of stuff, not liking your life when it comes to creativity. And that's why people don't quite understand sometimes when successful people might not like that life. It's particularly artists in this case. Let's stay with the creatives, right? It's like, it's not always, oh, I just don't like my life. Sometimes just the path that you have to take creatively, the way it takes your mind, you start to look at everything differently. Like the world, the questions you're asking, and it starts to become a really weird place. And when you get these weird things in music, right, that the part that you could just take in, like a little appetizer and keep pushing because you like the song, but what it took to get there at moments in time to find a piece of work in that creative journey, it's like, it's like the fucking, what do they call that thing? The glove, the Thanos glove? What's that called? The gauntlet. The gauntlet with the infinity stones, right? So sometimes creating a work, right? When I would be deep, and I was like visual artist first, like that was like growing up. And to find each infinity stone, you have to go on a separate journey, right? And each of those journeys, they come with their own ebbs and flows, but the goal is when you get them all, there's this beautiful work, right? You got this whole gauntlet, you got all the infinity stones, and you're good to go. That's the goal, but sometimes in that journey, all superheroes don't make it back, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's kind of what that process can be like. And for me, fortunately, I chose not to go that create a path where I have to stay in the creative. And I have a lot of empathy for artists because if you commit to the creative and the life as an artist, there's a different commitment to that way of thinking. The ones who truly wanna do the creative exploration and push things forward, right? To me, the biggest difference between an artist in that particular fashion that we're talking about and a creative, because creative exists in many ways, is literally the commitment to say, I have to continue to push forward on this journey and live this out fully. And in that commitment, things get more and more dangerous. Me, I can compartmentalize, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm doing my business stuff. All right, now let me be in my creative space for a period of time. And then if stuff goes to a certain place, then you move on. So, again, that's one of the biggest dangers that I think creates is just your own mind for a point blank, right? That's the thing that's consistent because everybody has their own mind. Didn't you talk about life circumstances and things like that? All right, that might change from artist to artist. So what else might be some of the things that contribute to that? One thing at a website called verywellmind.com, they say the rather high pressure and hectic lifestyles of many artists, we know it touring life, especially, can be like. The times that we had to be, quote, unquote, on the road. Should be hell. That's gonna be hell. And I get why people have trash diets and all that stuff is hard to keep your physical health up. It's hard to have your diet right and all those things, as we know, the smarter society gets contribute to our mental health, right? Yep. Like John gets stressful. And then you have tight deadlines. So that pressure as well. And everybody doesn't have the same deadlines, but that's what they know it, right? Tight deadlines. So I guess the idea of, hey, I gotta be, being, I gotta do my homework and my homework being research, some things in social studies and find the answer. That's one thing on a tight deadline, but when it's creative, meaning it's coming from you, I think that's a different type of stress. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I think that is a large part of it, right? Because most creative people I know started chasing their creative dreams in pursuit of freedom. You know what I'm saying? I'm saying, oh, if I'm good at drawing, if I do this drawing thing really well, I can be free from typical jobs, you know what I'm saying, or whatever that comes with. I think a large part of that stress that leads to those mental health issues is realizing that in order to do it well, you have to give up a lot of those freedoms, you know what I'm saying? So for example, the average person, like a regular person works at a bank, you know what I'm saying? Goes to work at nine, gets home at five. They have the freedom to not be judged by society. They can say that. But no one can judge me. When you're an artist, you can't say that. It's part of your job. Part of your job is literally being judged by strangers, you know what I'm saying? You don't know you and it trickles down there, right? Or like I said, hey, when I, before I was popping when I only had 10-monthly listeners, I just made songs when I feel like it. Now I'm popping and I got a million-month list and my manager's saying like, yo, we need this EP by the end of the week. You know what I'm saying? You're saying I can't create like that, but it's like, but that's what's required to do it at the level where it gives you at least the financial freedom. I think that's a big part of it. Like artists kind of confuse the chasing their dreams for financial freedom with chasing their dreams for like just complete life freedom. You know what I'm saying? Which I think does come eventually like as you get better. The difference. I guess I think like, I go back to it like kind of wanting the privileges of those without an audience, you know what I'm saying? Those who don't kind of share the same burdens, but wanting the financial freedom aspect that comes with it. Like I want the money of a popping rapper, but I don't want to get harassed by strangers like a popping rapper. It's like, no, you don't get both. You know what I'm saying? That's the sad reality of it. It's a weird world for everybody with an audience. You know what I'm saying? Like, aim it from rappers to musicians to podcasters to people like us. Aim out what the audience is about to tell you, bro. It's a weird world once you get an audience. You know what I'm saying? Like, cause now you are, you meet people and like you see that like they judge you and have this whole thought about you before and you don't even know they existed until that moment, but they've thought long and hard about this shit. And then you have to just walk away and deal with that. Like, my mom was like a payroll manager for like a company or she don't have to deal with that. She go home judgment free. You know what I'm saying? Anybody leaving comments about, you know what I'm saying? Her hair being fucked up or nothing. You know what I'm saying? She just live like free like that, but like going back to what I was saying earlier, like it's only so much that you can take before it eventually it hits you and it affects you. But the reality of it is when you are in the creative job and you're doing it well, like it's just one of the things that come with it. You know what I'm saying? You have to learn. You either learn to endure it or you learn how to hide from it effectively. Like I think a lot of big artists hide from it. You know what I'm saying? And use like other things as an excuse to kind of cover it. But the reality is like that they get affected by it too. You know what I'm saying? The same way artists that gets a hundred comments might get sad because they are saying bad things. How do you think like a artist like a playboy Cardi feels when he reads the comments and it's 20,000 people saying like, yo, that last one you put out was trash. Like even they get affected by it. They just don't put themselves out there enough to like say it. But that's what I look at. I think like sometimes like you can achieve financial freedom through your art. I think it's very doable more now than ever, but you are going to give up certain life freedoms because of it. I want to pull a clip up in a second, but you did just made me think about something. It's that pursuing the creativity for freedom because creativity innately feels frame, right? But it's like medicine, right? That dose of creativity feels freeing. It feels curing to whatever you're going through when you're in your normal life, in normal state. But people who commit again to artistry, they don't just get to use it as a medicine. They're like, oh, on a weekend I'm gonna go be creative as a hobby, right? And paint something or do things on the side just as that's freeing outlet. It's no, you gotta keep doing this. You gotta keep doing this to the point that you basically have to overdose just to keep that thing going. So it's interesting, and that's where there is the overdose on yours just too much and I'm going too far. I let myself go too far in that direction mentally and now I gotta pull myself back or just from the professional standpoint of the freeing aspect that it got taken away. But that commitment in multiple ways kind of counteracts the reason that you got into it in the first place or a lot of people are attracted to it in the first place. Before I read this first clip, you said something that made me think it is the Russell's post about people seeing people's comments, right? He posted that like this morning, random but not so random thought, it's not always easy to brush off some foul shit someone says or does online. Even if you know they are just a hater, even if you're doing quote unquote better than them in life, sometimes it'll still get to you because you're a human with very real feelings. The internet is fake, but people are real and the emotion is real. The hate is real, the love is too. Some days I respond, some days I react, some days I do neither. Every day I'm human, whatever that means. And I think that's exactly the point of it. Once you have that audience, you're always getting that reaction and even the people who seem to respond better because the Russell's one of those people who has like that, like eff human tally in brands, right? You can think it doesn't affect them, right? If you look at him, you can look at somebody like a Tyler, you can look at somebody like, let's just say a Jay-Z. People that people don't typically associate with being emotional in that particular way. All of these people are getting affected. It's all of it because you can't like, the Russell said, you are human. So it's gonna get in there and that's the part that you hate too. It's like, dang, bro, I don't even wanna care for some reason that shit's still bothering me. So I get that. Now let's play this clip from black because we're about to get into fault number one and how it can be resolved. The fan side of artists being depressed. Being in a good place made me want to just talk about good things. I think that music is a little bit like cluttered right now with everything else. You know, Toxa City seems to be just like the punchline at the end of every song and it feels good to feel good. And I just wanted to like spread that as much as I could. If that's the one thing I can do while I'm here, then I do. When it comes to like the Toxa City that's like permeating through the music industry right now, my personal opinion is I think it's a lot easier to create from that space. And it's not to say that it doesn't make for like amazing art. Like I'm a fan of everything. But at some point it's like, when does it become like a fetish or when does it become like a crutch or when does it become like a trend? For me, it's like if I ever had to make Free Black Two that wouldn't necessarily be a good thing. So I wouldn't want people to want that for me. I don't want that for myself. I think it's like our job as artists to uplift whenever we can. All right. So one thing he said, if I had to create a Free Black Two, that would be a good thing for me. Y'all who don't know Free Black One, it was a pretty sad, coming from a sadder space, went through some hardships. You can call it toxic, whatever you will, right? And that wouldn't be a good thing for me. Cause in real life, I went through this shit. That means I would have to go through some bullshit just to create this project. And this is when we get to the fetishization that he alluded to, all right? Fans definitely fetishize toxic music at this point. 100%. They want it from their artists. They feel like it's good music. And then you're not real if you don't come out with that type of music. For some people in some fan bases, especially if you start, if your first thing that pops is coming from that space, oh Lord, don't get happy, bruh. Like we all know the typical, the stereotype around Mary J. Blige, like they were like, oh man, every time she break up or is she in a bad space, she, oh, look out, she coming with one. Yeah, here coming. Yeah, and she even has said, I've seen clips of her talking about, yo, my fans don't really like when I come out with the positive vibes, but I'm in this space in life. So that right there, fans, that is a trap. Like don't forget your artists, these people that you are fans of, it's not them just writing this shit. The ones who do it well, the ones who do the best, they have to go do this shit. So you're kind, you're not only wanting to consume this from them, you're almost in some ways wanting them to go through this, or there's a lot of imaginings and sometimes you can pull different things from your old events. But even to have to go through that space and mentally and put yourself back there to do it well, like even that can be damaging sometimes, like just to sit in that energy again, just to write from that place. Yeah, and it's like, as an artist it kind of becomes like one of your superpowers, right? Cause you think about like, you mentioned like Jay-Z, like if Jay-Z makes a song about struggling today, I don't believe him, right? I know he's pulling from experiences. He has to dig deep, like damn, let me remember a time where like I felt down bad and like I lost hope and let me write from that space, even though, you know what I'm saying? Like my butler just walked in with the dinner for the day, you know what I'm saying? Like, so I do think that's a superpower with the growing artists is like, how do you dig into these experiences to stay relatable while you go through these more positive things in your life? And that's what makes it so interesting from the fans. So I was like, if I'm a rapper and I make a sad ass song a year ago, and then a year goes by and I work on myself, I work on that situation, I'm in a better place. But then you discover it today because you're going through a sad situation. And then you come in like, hey bro, that sad shit you made, I want more of that. And you're like, but I'm not there. Like we saw it with Adele, right? Like Adele's early music, she's heartbroken, she's sad. She went and found WizKid and found love, you know what I'm saying? The fans was like, no, Brian's not. But now WizKid? I think she was dating WizKid for a minute. I don't know if that's still, I think so, yeah. That's crazy. You know what I'm saying? Don't quote me on that. Y'all let me know in the comments. I'm like 95% sure she is or was dating WizKid at one point. It was a while, a while time on the internet. But like we saw it with her, right? People was like, no, bro, are you happy? You in love? They come in WizKid then because she's about to have a baby. So whoever she's about to have a baby with, you about to have a baby, you know what I'm saying? You in a different place in life? No, we don't want that. And to me, that goes back to the bigger point of fans on humanized artists, right? Because if I'm a person going through some bad shit, I want that shit to end as soon as possible, you know what I'm saying? Like what's the quickest path? Yes. I'm not going to be out this shit. But when you looking at an artist, part of you does kind of thing. Like I've caught myself saying it before and I know it's fucked up, but I'm like, damn man, like, like I hope some shit happens to that nigga. So like he can put another hit out. You know what I'm saying? I know, bro. I ain't proud of it, but I've been there. Like when I remember when Kanye and Kim first got married, I was listening comments being like, y'all can't wait for her to break his heart so he can make it away some heartbreak part too. Like I saw comments like that. Like fans, fans, things like that. I can admit, like I've been one of those fans before. Yo, that's crazy as fuck. Cause that gave me that epiphany. If y'all, some of y'all out here on that type of time, you know how fans sometimes can be responsible for some of these breakups or things that happen in a relationship. Fans instigate the hell out of stuff. Hell yeah. So now I'm thinking, dang man, are you instigating trouble in my life? Turbulence in my life just so I can write a hit? Yeah, and mass numbers, you know what I'm saying? It is crazy, bruh. I mean, you see it in a bunch of different ways. It's no different than like the street artists that, you know, guzz and start trying to change their life around like, oh, you're not real, you left out. And it's like, why wouldn't you? It's true. Like when you go to jail. Yeah. I want you to be in jail. I want niggas shooting at you. I want you to be unsafe everywhere you go. Exactly, cause it makes me feel like that whatever experience you're talking about is authentic. And then what gives me about it is that like as regular people, we want the grace for someone to be like, hey, I recognize you went through a shitty experience. You got through it, you pushed through it, you persevered. I'm happy that you're in a better place, right? I want you to be in a better place. But the same grace isn't really given to artists. It's like, man, this better place, although it's cool for you, has caused you to make art that I don't like. I want you to go back to that bad place. That's messed up because what that tells me is a lot of fans look at artists, not as a human, but a movie. I'm watching this movie and I need this movie to be believable. First and foremost, right? So if it's not going, if it's not happening in your real life, I don't believe this thing. One, cause it's not coming from strong enough of a place. Two, I'm here to watch a certain movie. I go to you for action movies. You know what I'm saying? I go to you for rom-coms. I don't want no mixer. Whoa, what you doing in love, bro? You supposed to be saving the world right now or you supposed to be like running up on the ops right now. They don't want to see those alternate things. And it's again, we understand these elements of business when it comes to capitalizing on a niche, taking advantage of scaling a certain direction and way of doing things. We understand all that in business. It's just when you add the human aspect that that's when shit gets weird, man. That's the weird part. You're dealing with a human product and I want to scale your toxicity. That's a crazy thing. Not even thinking about like I said, bro, like the artist saying that anymore. Like I've had artist friends that will put music out and then you listen to it and then I come up like, bro, you all right? Like you cool, bro? And I listened to this song. You got a bar about jumping off Bruce and shit. And I said, oh, bro, that was how I was feeling like two years ago. You know what I'm saying? I wrote that song two years ago. I'm good now. You know what I'm saying? Like I said, like I think it is a superpower for artists to dig back into the experiences and bring it up even if it's not where they are. But then even as a fan, like you don't get that context. You know what I'm saying? Most artists aren't saying like, hey, I dropped this song today. It's a banger about how, you know what I'm saying? I broke this girl heart and now we both depressed but this shit was two years ago. I'm not there anymore. You know what I'm saying? I'm selling it to you. Like this is what's going on right now. You know what I'm saying? So I know it's a little bit ahead. It goes kind of put the ball in the artist court a little bit, but like, I think it's that two sides of it, right? Like as an artist, you are trying to be a character. You know what I'm saying? Like your whole job is to be, like you said, one of these characters that maybe fits a couple of boxes. And so I can't understand the fan confusion when there's a moment where the artist is trying to be a real person. And then you confuse. You're like, no, bro, you've been selling me this character for the last year, two years, three years, four years. And now you telling me like this isn't who you are and like what I should believe. Like no, either you go back to doing the thing that you made me believe or I'm gonna leave. You know what I'm saying? Like that's what it comes down to. And like there's been a lot of examples. Like I said, the Dale situation there has been like, I remember when like Meg first started dating that one rapper of Party Funtime or whatever his name was writing. Partisan Funtime. Partisan Funtime and people were mad that she was in love. It was like crazy, bro. It was like people were just like, no, you have sold me this dream. You have sold me this character. And now you want me to just look at your real life that doesn't display that. No, I'm not accepting that, you know what I'm saying? And then the artist has to deal with that. Before you even get too far in that direction. So there's a quote from an article that says, the explanation is fascinating. When you listen to set, this is they're talking about people love to listen to sad music. And why? So this will give the fans some cop out. The explanation is fascinating. When you listen to sad music, your brain is tricked into thinking you're about to deal with trauma. This causes the release of a hormone called prolactin which helps control and curb the grief response. When trauma doesn't occur, your body is left with extra hormones. So because trauma didn't occur, you just listen to music, your body's left with these extra hormones. And because there isn't some catastrophe, you have all this prolactin chilling out in your brain and body and it gives you a very calm cathartic feeling, says the doctor. This is also why people feel better after listening to sad music when they're truly sad. Emotional validation also plays a powerful role in how downer music is perceived too because unlike a conversation with a friend, it's impossible to have a dialogue while listening. All you can do is process it as good. So you're listening to music and you're processing yourself versus like going back and forth which allows you to more deeply think into things. So there's some cop out of why people like to listen to sad music. Now, other forms of trauma, there's I guess there's other forms of cop outs. I'm sure like outside of just a living vicariously. But back to you saying the superpower, right? I've heard Sir talk about how he, like he was happily married and all that stuff. And they were like, well, how are you writing this music for calling, talking about these breakups? He was like, yeah, man, that was like 10 years ago, whatever. But like, yeah, I can pull from it. And then I saw interview with 50 Cent where he was talking about how he can cry on response. And they were like, do it. And he just stopped and he did it. Oh, sure. Yeah, he actually did it. And they say, what do you think about? He was thinking about his mom dying, right? So he's pulling from a real place. It's just having those things that you compartmentalize and pull from. But nevertheless, going back to those moments in those spaces can definitely still be traumatizing in their own right. That should hurt, yeah. It's still hurt. You're still experiencing that pain. And you go back to that space. Now, with that being said, Chance the Rapper is a good segue into some of this same space when we talk about it being artist's fault in some ways, right? It's just everybody having their own accountability. And I feel like we're gonna get to the industry. We know what the industry does. People have that conversation. Yeah, we know. Yeah, we know. So we'll get to that. But let's give a head to the artists. We were gonna do y'all last, but let's get to them. So the biggest thing that you said is selling a dream. Yep. Hey, man, I came into the restaurant because of the marketing I saw. And this ain't the food that is out there. Man, y'all told me I was gonna see some ribs and this is motherfucking vegan, you know. He's got hot dogs. Hot dog restaurant, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, like what is this? So I came in expecting one thing and now you flipped the script on me. I thought we were hot girl summering out here. Like why are we booed up? And that's not hot girl summering from what I imagined. Talk about Meg's relationship. So I get why that dissidents can occur and people be a little bit upset. And you're like, yeah, man, I was doing that right then. That's the part where it's still like the lack of human. It's like, yeah, I can be both and I can be in those different vibes. But yeah, it's all about you sold this dream and best believe doing it well is selling it, making people feel, all right? So doing it well and doing it at scale, that means it is selling you. Making you feel the fans have to be sold on whatever they're consuming and then you switch up or try to evolve and that creates the conflict. I even thought about this for like podcast versus YouTube videos. Because we talk about like viral YouTube videos. We get to have conversation, go through the thoughts on the podcast, like that type of format. And it helps people hear concepts be discussed, dissect and process different ideas and think of it for themselves, right? Hearing us go back and forth and then people can then go and take their own takeaway. But when you create the most viral videos on a YouTube or any of these platforms, you condense it and it's not for you to really think what you want to think. It's for me to sell you an idea and it goes viral. So in a lot of times, even if you look at education, so I was like, oh yeah, I don't want you to tell me all these different angles that this artist could have blown up and things happen with this artist. Like the type of stuff when we're talking about our channel. It's not, the people are really asking, instead of learning, they just want to be sold a concept in a most entertaining fashion. Anytime you make it entertaining, that means you're being sold. But I got to make you feel like you're going through this journey and oh man, that was a great video. And some people call that learning, that's not. But I digress, that concept, I feel like exist in everything. Artists have to do it. But the example I just laid out just shows that we're in the era especially where people just want to be sold over and over again. Because I'm not going to watch the content. I'm not going to consume anything unless I'm being sold to finish it. Because I want to be entertained. Entertainment, demand is at an all time high and artists are just the ones who have had to deal with that regularly. Yeah, because of all the content creators and influencers, they put out content the most regularly. So I can get damn near daily updates on this story versus my Netflix show that comes out once a year or some shit or whatever that looks like. So I get it from that side. And then I think it's one of those things too where like the issue I see with a lot of artists is I think most artists start out wanting to be successful but a lot of them don't really believe it in the beginning and then it happens and then they stuck in the shit that they tried that got them there, right? So like I'm an artist, cool. I see the street music is cool. I'm going to go make some street shit. It's shit fun to me. I'm going to school and working, you know what I'm saying? I want to pop, but I don't know if I'm gonna pop. Boom, you go viral. Now you stuck in that world, right? Now you have to move in that world and navigate in that world and talk to people that's really in that world because like you said, but you just only reason I let you have this moment is because you got really good at selling me this dream and selling me this vision. So you got damn better live up to it, you know what I'm saying? And so it's like, I don't know, what's the alternative? Do we tell artists not to do that, you know what I'm saying? Because I think smart artists, like let's look at like Drake, like Drake knows how to cap on a niche and then move on about his life, you know what I'm saying? But you know, he built up the awareness to where you can do that. We don't believe all the characters that he introduces to us. We know he's playing the character versus like Lil, who the fuck, whatever they are. I just saw my TikTok timeline for the first time yesterday. Like I'm believing it because I don't know much about you. You know what I'm saying? All I know is what you're telling me right now. And so I see those sides of it where it's like, do I just abandon these things that I know that fans wanna hear from me or could wanna hear from me because it could be detrimental to my overall lifestyle? Or do I get his motherfucking back? You know what I'm saying? Like I go ahead and get this bag and figure it out later. You know, most of them gonna get the bag and figure it out later. Like, because there's even been, I always think about that future clip where he talked about drinking cucumber water. You know what I'm saying? How he don't really drink lean like that. And he's apparently a healthy guy. You know what I'm saying? Like cucumber water ain't cheap. But the businessman in him was like, hey, I'm in Atlanta, right? He's in Atlanta like to hear street music and drug music and trap music. I'm young, I'm trying to pop. That's what I'm out of run with. You know what I mean? The artists I've met, that like you get to know them behind the scene. You be like, damn, this thing got a wife and kids and like he own a church and like he volunteers on the weekend. Bro, like why aren't you telling people this? They're like, cause it'll kill the dream. It'll kill the dream. You know what I'm saying? And then my whole business is a crumble because of it. You know, so I get it, you know? And then I think from a fan side to your point about it being entertainment for us, like I can be fascinated with street culture, but I don't want to go to the West side. You know what I'm saying? I don't want to drive down to Riverdale and hang out in Riverdale. So what's the next best thing for me? I was his rapper. I like you living that shit. I'm just gonna watch him go through it. Watch him go through the motions, watch him deal with the consequences. I'm safe. I'm in my room, you know what I'm saying? Eating snacks, scrolling TikTok. You the one got to deal with it. But at the end of the day, I get what I want, which is entertainment. And I get to peek into a world that I wouldn't necessarily go to. It was like watching the Discovery Channel. You know what I'm saying? I'm a homie who tells me stories about his crazy life. And you live that same way. Yeah, it's like, I don't want to do that shit. But hey, bro, that was a pretty entertaining story. You know what I'm saying? Like that's crazy that you went through that, bro. Like that was six niggas shooting at you? Crazy. You know what I'm saying? I would never wish it on my worst enemy. The future shit was wild, though. The future shit was wild. Because, I mean, we know, it's not that he probably never, he's never done the drugs that he talked about, right? But the way he said it, he's like, man, I can't be me if I was doing drugs like that. You know what I mean? It's like, I couldn't be successful doing that, the damn near, that's basically what he's saying. And he's right. That's what's crazy about it. He's right. He's like, man, he was on lean all the time. He'd be spaced the fuck out. He wouldn't be in the future. So it's like, but fans don't know that, bro. Fans will listen to ours and be like, oh, you can. Particularly young folks. Yeah, particularly, yeah. Cause older fans, yeah, we know what's up. But like, yeah, like a 16-year-old fan's like, oh, I can't smoke 20 blunts a day instead of being successful. It's like, no, you can't, bro. No, you can't. Like maybe, maybe two, you know what I'm saying? Depending on your life, but 20? Nah, bro, leave that to shit. Like I said, most of the really successful music artists I've met, even the ones that sell their lifestyle, don't like do it all the time. You know what I'm saying? Like they be the ones in the studio asking for sparkling water and fruit while the rest of the room eating chips and drinking alcohol and shit. You know what I'm saying? Like it'd be real, bro. Like you looking like, damn, bro. Like you just went and wrapped the whole bar about drinking the pint a day and you over there drinking fucking Perrier, bro. Like what's going on? Yeah, some people are like serious about it now where you'll see somebody like Jadakiss, Juicin, or Styles P, or Ace Hood, Super Fit. Oh yeah. Who else? It's quite a few people that are on that. Like, well, you know, Kendrick don't intake anything at all. It's a lot of people that are more open about it these days, but transitioning. Why do you think Chance the Rapper fell off? That's a wild segue, bro. By people's perception. You know the conversation. This is even me thinking that he fell off like myself. But you know, there was that conversation. People say, oh, he fell off and, you know, he not the same. We don't fuck with him. We know it was a big day or whatever. 10 day, well, it's a coloring book. No, not a big day, the big day. Yeah, the big day. Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. So I think the reason Chance fell off is that the music that we fell in love with from Chance the Rapper, if I have to put it simply, just wasn't preachy. He came in and talked about being addicted to cigarettes. Got a whole album. Most of the music that made people love Chance the Rapper came from Acerap, right? Most die hard Chance fan site, Acerap is the project that made him fall in love with him. A project where he talks about how he wrote this whole album while I think he was kicked out of school and on Acerap and wrote this shit. So he is writing music from the perspective of a fuck up. You know what I'm saying? Essentially, I fucked up, I got kicked out of school, I'm on drugs, I'm young, but I made some fast music to four years later kind of preaching that to you, right? He's always talked about like religion in his music. If you listen to early change, he's always given the opposite of religion, but the music guys of like the last three, four years has been like very religious music, you know what I'm saying? He's almost like walking that line between Christian rap and regular rap and just like skipping back and forth between the two. And I think that confused the fans, because like, hey man, what I liked about you was the fact that like you weren't preachy and judgmental because you were also a fuck up. And now that you were in a better place in life, you know what I'm saying? Now you're preaching at me and people usually take being preached at as being looked down upon. You only feel like you can say this to me because you feel like you're higher than me and better than me. So I think there's one part of it, right? Like the fans are always looking for a way to be like, nah, bro, that's when fans humanize you. When you tell them you're better than them, that's when fans are like, oh, nah, bro, you're just right. Yeah, you're just right, no, bro, like so. And so I think that's the part of it. And then I think that just the transition into that brand wasn't that smooth because what was weird to me about that was, so he had that song about like how much he loves his wife, right? I think that came out around the same time J. Cole put out that song like Folding Clothes. If it wasn't the same years, maybe like a year or two off from each other. Both of them got hella backlash. We don't wanna see this shit, you know, whatever, whatever. And then Young Thug started putting like his girlfriend on songs, you know what I'm saying? He started making songs about liking his girlfriend and everybody was like, oh, that's cool. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's cool seeing Young Thug being loved and cared about a family and dynamic. This is before like he was dating Mariah DeSantis. And the only thing I could rationalize it was that Young Thug's a sin to that felt more natural because like we saw his girlfriend back then like a lot more likes that he would take her to shows, she would be on music. That's what it is. Maybe, I don't know. I think it's the contrast between Thug still never having a perfect brand and still, you know, being this guy. His brand doesn't feel preachy, you know what I mean? Yeah, not even preachy. It was like just not right in general. Like his brand was more of like, I'm living a life that is like, you know, a little on the darker side, right? So when he does something like that, it's like, ooh, look at that positive. Like he's still a good guy. It means a lot more than let's just say a preacher saying praise in his wife. Well, that's what you're supposed to do, right? Yeah, yeah. And then you have Jay Cole who had a borderline perfection and preachy brand. Not like he's trying to push it on you in that same way, but still that was kind of what his brand was and then Trentz went that way. So then we don't want to hear that. Even if you went through it like Chance and you had an evolution, it's like, nah, we want to relate to you. We don't want to hear the solution. Yeah, exactly. Because it's like, well, hey, maybe Chance is like, hell, I learned this. So I'm giving you what I learned. Maybe that's what he's saying, but people don't want to hear the solution. They just want to be in the pit with you. And I asked you about Chance because he said when he reflected on his past drug use, he said he probably would have died, right? He couldn't make that music anymore. The way that I was living at that time, I had everything in excess. And the important part of that for this conversation is, right? People liked him better when he was in a place where he said he probably would have died if he stayed in that place, right? And that's where we go to back and forth, man. Artists get caught in some ways being an outlet for people, right? Yep. I don't know who has it worse. Artists or therapists? Because therapists, I always know, man. I think about it like, therapists' lives have to be pretty fucked up. And I know quite a few therapists, like the ones who have the real issue, like the one who, like listen to people who really got issues, lives be pretty fucked up. I knew a girl. She was a therapist in a psychologist or whatever in like a prison. Pretty fucked up. Like she was pretty fucked up and like a relationship she ended up getting into had all these crazy issues and things you would have been like, why would you be in staying in this relationship? But I think it's hard. It's impossible. Like the physics of spirituality don't allow you to consume that level of negativity and it not be expressed in somehow in your life, right? So that's what artists end up being for people as well, right? Your people are giving this weight. Do your comments. Remember you mentioned the comments at the beginning of the conversation. You're like, yo, I'm so happy that you took got me through this and you got me through this and listening to your music saved my life. A lot of that is positive, right? Even when you mean it in a positive way and it's not even getting into the details of like a grimy story. Still that weight that that can have on you from consuming that. And then even the sense of responsibility even people who say they don't want that responsibility still are gonna feel that weight. Cause a lot of times they say they don't want that responsibility cause they don't want to wait and they feel that pressure, right? So like, you know, again, taking it back to the therapist, it's like you're consuming all of this pain in a lot of cases. Now what do I do with it? I'm the doctor that can't heal myself cause I'm taking it, I'm taking on the world. And artists, again, like being that type of expression being stuck in that particular space. Like, oh man, I'm only gonna come to you. I imagine if I only came to you when I had some negative shit, you know what I'm saying? And you're like, damn it, maybe you were in that negative space too, but you didn't know it because you were the negative, negative too. But then you evolve and now all of a sudden it's like, dang Brian Sean keep hitting me with this negative stuff and he only talks to me about, and I got my other homie where I only talked to him about sports, but that don't hit the same, you know what I'm saying? Because it's not negative, like cause people have, that's what people do. Like we all compartmentalize, people don't say they own like labels in any kind of way or judgment, any kind of way or boxes in any kind of way. That's naturally the organization everybody's gonna do in their own way. You just might like somebody's box better than another person's box, everybody boxing something, right? So when you get stuck in one of them boxes that you don't even like, he's like, damn, bro. Like, I can't talk to anybody right now, bro. I'm trying to, I'm trying to like, yeah, live good, bro. You keep tugging me down. It was bright and sunny. So again, I think that's part of that struggle that they go into. Do you have anything about, well, we didn't, I wanna make sure we talk on solutions as well. Right, cause we touched on fans contributing to this issue. Artists contributing to this issue. Before we get into the industry, let's make sure we touch on how people can actually support artists, right? Yeah. Or how artists in some ways can, you know, support not having to deal with as much of that or getting out of that situation. You have any, you wanna start with fans? Man, how can fans support artists? I think it's easiest said and done, but you know, stop pedicelizing music artists, man. Look at them as another person with a job, you know? Like, he's no different than the firefighter, or he or she is no different than the firefighter, than no different than the therapist, than no different than the nurse. So a person had a skill set that they were good at and they found a way to make money around it. That's really all it is at the end of the day, you know what I'm saying? That is 100% what it is. All it is. And the worst thing you could do, like you said, it's the pedestal of it. Everybody is doing something that somebody else might think well of, right? And we have these positions in society, like people talk more about classism top down, they never talk bottom up. And a lot of times we experience it more bottom up when you talk about online conversations and things like that. And what I mean by that is, it's like, oh, bro, you don't have any ability, you don't have the luxury of not liking your life. You got too much money. You got too many fans. Like, what do you have to be sad about? So I don't even take it seriously. You're just in combo, bro. Like, what do you mean you said? I don't take it seriously. It's on one side, oh, money doesn't solve everything and it doesn't make you happy. But then you be like, hey, bro, you got too much money to be sad. You know what I'm saying? So like me putting you on a pedestal because of your job makes no sense. It's hypocritical if I think that way, right? And thinking that there should be no problems. And then the other aspect of that is I'm putting you on a pedestal saying that you should be thankful. But in reality, in many cases, like you said, it's just a job for some people. We hate that, yo, bro, you should be thankful. You should work hard because you're an athlete. You should work hard because you're an artist, X, Y, and Z. But, bro, how many people do we know have a job just because they were skilled at it and they're not trying to be the best of the best? It's like, hey, bro, I get it. You love basketball or you love rapping and you would have died if you could have done that. And I just happen to be better at it naturally. It is what it is, dawg. I don't love the game the same way, but I got the talent, it sucks. But here I am and this is just a job to me. So in some cases, that's what it is. Yeah, yeah, and it's like, I guess because we're on the back end of it, like I've met lots of people on the back end of music who feel that way. Hey, bro, I never planned to be a, like even me, like I never planned to be a marketer. I just one day was like, I'm good at it. I'm good at it, you know what I'm saying? I should probably see where this goes. You know, ride it to the wheels, fall off. And it's taken me places. Lots of people behind the scenes I've met that are like that. Hey, bro, I just kind of fell into it and it worked out. And then with music, there's that underlying thought that like, yo, they have to love this and be passionate about it or they wouldn't be here. Which like I said, it's not true. I know lots of artists that just be like, oh, I made a song fucking around and that shit went viral. Now I'm stuck in this shit. Especially in today's age. Especially in today. But lots of artists become artists on accident. You know what I'm saying? Like the internet is like, oh, you, yeah, we want that. You know what I'm saying? Let's keep it going. So I think just getting fans of humanized artists more probably soft 80% of it. Oh man, he having a bad day. I get it. I was having a bad day last week too. But instead of like, like you said, bro, like, nigga, what you sad for, bro? Go to Mexico, take a week off and chill out. It's like, it's deeper than that, bro. Like it's deeper than it or whatever it is. Show support, which shout out to Jocelyn. I hope you hear this episode. Remember when Frank Ocean had the Coachella moment, right? And we had the call after, like the week after Coachella. So I was at Coachella and I asked, like, are y'all still Frank Ocean fans or whatever? Or I just pondered if people are gonna still be Frank Ocean fans and she was like hardcore. Like, yeah, you know, I'm still a fan. I'd still even go to a show. I think maybe I meant more specifically asked if people go to a Frank Ocean show or something. But she was hardcore, still in support, experienced there the bad moment, but still was there for the future of moments and that's what I think fans need to, they need to have that mentality in many cases for some of these artists. Now, of course, there could be a long history of violation. Once the book gets built, I like, I love you Lauren, but I'm not going to your show. You know what I'm saying? Like it's that type of thing. So there's that showing support in that way in a real way and continuing to be willing to show up for those type of people. But overall, just continuing to educate yourself on an artist's journey. I think the more fans know about what labels got artists going through and all of these pressures that they have, we've seen it over the years that fans are more willing to support artists. That's why indie artists are getting so much support these days because they know now that yo, there's a difference and you need more financial support from me because you don't have this backing, but also I know I'm giving it to you directly, right? And they understand a lot more of the cost and it's not, oh, it's all bells and whistles. So like fans being educated on the journey, really, like almost as a result, just turns into them supporting in a more real way and seeing it all in a more realistic way. Like at least being empathetic about like, oh man, the reason that I don't know, he looked tired on stage was because he just came off of a 15-city tour and he just flew in from Glasgow an hour ago and came. You know what I'm saying? Because fans, you don't think like, I remember seeing like a, I remember seeing like Wale, like when I was in college, or maybe a little bit out of college and he did this show in Atlanta. I remember he walked on stage, he looked like tired as fuck. And I was like, man, like, I think what you was doing, bro, like he was drinking some shit for a guy and he gave like a very mediocre performance, you know what I'm saying? And then I just remember like talking to one of my friends about it and then later that I went and looked at like his socials or something. And I saw right before he came to that show, he had just did a show at Morehouse. Before he had did a show at like Hampton, Virginia, or something, something like that. I mean, he had to have driven straight from Virginia to Georgia, you know what I'm saying? Did the Morehouse show, left the Morehouse or that? And then I became like, okay, like, all right, I get it now, you know what I'm saying? But like if I never went and looked at that, I would have left that and been like, yo, this nigga trash, you know what I'm saying? That was a bad performance, you know what I'm saying? But like I can say like being educated about it does help. Only thing I have seen with that in this age is like fans like going back to the early conversations and fans like supporting people that are standing next to them. And as soon as you get above them, it flips. You know what I'm saying? How many hours have we seen? Where it's like, oh bro, you just struggling, bedroom, art is all great, cool, here go $10 bro. Make that album, this shit gonna be fire. They get a viral moment. They announced they signed to Atlanta record some shit. Whole energy shift. Cause now I gotta pull you back down, you know what I'm saying? I love my friend. But I'll never forget, I was a freshman in college. She was drunk singing Beyonce, right? And she loved Beyonce. I always loved Beyonce. Had been such a hardcore supporter. Like I never heard somebody sing as many Beyonce songs as she was. She was drunk singing Beyonce this one time. And like a couple of days later, a Beyonce album dropped. Right? So I'm like, oh yeah. She was just going crazy on this last night. I know she hyped for this. I was like, hey yo, I almost said her name. Hey yo, you know, Beyonce project just dropped. I know you're going to get it. And she was like, what? No, hell no. I was like, what? Hell no. Yeah. She said, Beyonce already has enough money. That's what she said. I was like, but you like the hardest core Beyonce fan in my life. That's what I thought. And she still loves Beyonce to this day. But that idea that you said like, whoa, now you're up here. Now my support doesn't even need to be the same. But actually I might need you more than ever. Or you know, and I was almost about to like this Miss Beyonce, but no, she actually still might need this where I see, I was about to do the same. I was literally about to do the same shit right now. I was like, okay, you know, Beyonce is different. But up most artists, no, Beyonce actually might be gone. Beyonce got bills. Yeah, she got bills. But it's not even about the money, right? It's the support in general, right? Because that same idea of I'm not going to buy this because she already has this, might be, I might not say a nice comment and show love because she already has enough love. There's other fans, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think part of that is natural because I always talk about smaller numbers allow people to have bigger impact. And we act on that. That's the same reason people say, oh, it doesn't matter if I vote because there's so many other people out there. I'm not going to tip the scale, right? What are you going, what's my one vote going to mean? But if I know that, hey, there's only a hundred votes that are needed and I'm one of those people? It's a different, oh shit. I might have, oh, there's only five more votes needed or you need this many to hit this number. Now I feel a little bit more important. So it's like I'm fanning out or I'm taking supportive behaviors out of my own ego versus supportive view. But the reality is, again, no matter how big the artist is, continue to show support, just show some love. And I wanted to switch to artists because I don't even know if we really go too deep in the industry at all. We're going to gloss over that one. But we talked about how artists can solve this for themselves as well. Outside of not getting into a bag that really is in the box that you want to be in, because it's hard to do that. Sometimes we can blame artists for, hey man, well you shouldn't have made that type of music if you didn't want to be caught over there, but there is a true part of artistic development where experimentation is a real thing, right? So it's like, do we want to stymie that growth in fear of getting stuck in it? I think there has to be more wiggle room than that, but one thing that you said actually when we were having this conversation earlier was be more conscious of what other artists are going through. You remember what you were talking about at that moment? Yeah man, I think artists are some of the biggest perpetrators of stereotypes in the artist community, right? Or just at least some of the negative stuff. Like I've literally seen comments of, sometimes another comment section, two artists of your argument, right? You don't know what you're talking about. Nah, fuck you, you don't know what you're talking about. Nigga, what? You only got a hundred monthly listeners. And it's like, all right man, you know like we're all at different, you all are at different parts of your artist journey. You know what I'm saying? Like the guy with the hundred monthly listeners may have just started out, just because you got 2,000 or 10,000 or 200,000 done. Like there are still certain things that all y'all are going through as artists, and then there are certain things that all of you go through as artists at these different stages. I know that the artists with a hundred monthly listeners probably trying to figure out how to make music consistently, probably trying to figure out how to get some money, I know more than likely what they're going through, and I know the artists with half a million monthly listeners going through, okay, they probably dealing with industry people pulling them around and trying to figure out, also trying to figure out what to get some money from, you know what I'm saying? Now they have been pushing to this whole new corporate world with deadlines and W-9s and shit like that, you know what I'm saying? So it's like you be around artists in the industry long enough, you can step back and know like, okay I know what they're more than likely going through at these different stages. But I think because most artists have either not yet hit those stages or they just hit it so they be feeling themselves like they don't give that same grace to other artists that they wish that other people would give to them. They'll humidly get gone real quick. Yeah, real quick, bro. You get a viral moment and it's like, oh fuck it, I'm better than all these nicks. It's all kumbaya, we need to band together to get a viral song. And it's like, oh, I'm better than all of these nicks. You know what I'm saying? Bro, it's because many artists like to claim that numbers don't dictate the quality of the art. But the moment you get them numbers, boy do you start flexing on them other artists, bro. Like, ooh, nah, dawg, you can't, we not in the same conversation. Did you see your album sales? Yeah, and then the cycle repeats. Cycle repeats. Cycle repeats. Now that new artist is jaded, he or she gonna work hard to get their numbers up and as soon as they do that back shitting on them. The smaller artists. It's passing on trauma like a blunt, bro, that's crazy. Yeah, so I think that's the biggest thing, bro. And it's like, my biggest issue is typically with bigger artists. Cause it's like, if you are future, well, bad example, if you are, I don't know, who's the new big artist? You, I, Spice. You, I, Spice. Are we going? Queen of Rout right now, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll go with you. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Like, I, Spice knows what an artist with a hundred monthly listeners is going through. She was just there like a year ago, or two years ago. You know what I'm saying? She don't talk shit about shit. That's might be a bad example. She don't really talk shit about nobody. But if you are artists of that caliber, it's like, hey, like, you know what these artists are going through. Like, give game back. Like, be real about, you know what I'm saying? What you going through? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, how many times have we seen artists come out 10, 20, 30 years later talking about they were broke during a certain point in their career when they was hot or had a song on the radio? And it's like, but that would have been great information to know back then because you've really, literally a whole generation of music artists have moved in a certain way because you gave us a different message back then, right? And you would have been like, hey, yo, I got this song on the radio, but yo, these niggas ain't paying me because of X, Y, Z. That would have completely changed the way the next 10 years of music artists thought about everything. You know what I'm saying? But like, I think bigger artists tend to give the game too late. They usually give it when they're not hot anymore and people aren't paying as much attention to them versus like, when I'm up and I'm going through it, I ain't telling nobody nothing because I don't want to give you a possible advantage over me, right? Or I guess to the earlier point, I don't want to break the character that I built. You know what I'm saying? And the fans have, right? But they're not really thinking about like the betterment of the artist community. And that's part of the depression, right? Going back to that idea and the mental health issue, everybody thinks I'm winning and I need to keep acting like I'm winning, but internally I feel like I'm losing, right? Or I know I'm losing and I got to keep up this entire imposter syndrome, right? I got to keep this whole charade going just so I can continue to build, right? But then, yeah, one day, not many people paying attention. Now you want to give me the game, OG? There's like, no, bro, give it to me while you're in that journey to be most helpful, right? Being most as transparent as possible, that'll help more artists, because then they'll at least see, oh, it's not what it's all cracked up to be. No, it's not even just about, oh, like, do you have a good deal or not, right? We're not talking, we're talking about beyond money. If people can just understand beyond the fantasy of it and all, right? Yeah, being on stage, crowd surfing, all these things are great. Hitting these numbers, Grammys, red carpets, all that shit is great. However, I also have these other things going on at the same time. This is imperfect. If you can put that out there, I think that'll help a lot, especially the younger artists coming up. Yeah, it solves two problems. Like the younger artists get talk about the, all day they start to develop more realistic expectations of what they get into. The fans become educated about what's going on, right? So it's a win-win. And it feels like a really easy thing to do in 2023, moving forward. You know, like we see bigger artists starting to kind of like meek, meel, tweets, shit, you know what I'm saying? I've seen like, you know, that was like that period where like, Glorilla, people's on Glorilla to ask about the assistant thing. And I remember she did a live talking about like, yo, like this is the reality of the business. I gotta pay the flights and you know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? So it's like, we're starting to see like, glimpses of it. But it usually happens, like I said, either when the artist is like falling off and not completely just not as hot as they were, or they've been pushed into a corner where the explanation isn't really for the betterment of the artist community, it's more to save their ass around a certain situation. Which then at that point, the information isn't being received as well. You know what I'm saying? Because like you dealing with something. And I also think it ties back to the way smaller artists treat artists who aren't like mainstream, right? A lot of times artists will feel like, hey, if you don't have the Grammys, if you're not on, you know what I'm saying? If you're not on, you know what I'm saying? These are academics every day. If you're not doing songs with the hottest artists out, then why should I listen to you? You know what I'm saying? I could be an artist with 10,000 monthly listeners and see an artist with 300,000. And I feel like, yo, he ain't poppin', he ain't mainstream either. So he can't know more than I know, you know what I'm saying? He can't have any insight to give me one. Like I said, it's not true. There are different levels for every stage of artistry. And artists at 300K might can't tell you what it's like to be an artist with 50 million monthly listeners and have that type of reputation, but they can tell you about what it's like to go from 10K to 300K, you know what I'm saying? And the work that got them to that point. And it's like, yeah, I might only be up the street ahead of you, but I'm still ahead of you. You know what I'm saying? Like I still got some wisdom I can give you. So I think that's a huge part of it too. Like I've seen so many comments met artists in real life, you know what I'm saying? Seeing that at conferences and things, they're like, that dude ain't on the radio. That dude ain't poppin' when I'ma listen to him. It's like, yeah, but he or she is doing better than you are currently, you know what I'm saying? So what about everybody wants the game that's gonna take them from zero to 100? Nobody just wants to go zero to 10 and then 10 to 12 and then 12 to 15. Like artists feel like there's some secret that missing in between that only the bigger artists can give them to make them move fast. But it's like, no, that is a result of your miseducation about how the industry works. That is a result of your ego and life around your ego and lack of humility when it comes to other artists. And like most of those artists typically are put in bad situations because of it. You know what I'm saying? They get stuck. And it's like, yo, why weren't you listening to the TikTok artists with 50,000 month listeners tell you how to get up and you only got 100. Why not go listen to them? Oh, they're not a future. If I could talk to Young Thug and ask Young Thug how he did it. It's like for Young Thug, when the what the fuck to tell you? Young Thug is like, hey bro, I sent my album on the 19th. They had the budget prepared by the 26 and that shit came out on the third. That's what he would tell you, bro. Like, if you don't fucking know, I don't know. He might, he probably know. You hear this, Young Thug. I believe in your business acumen. But, but not, not to that degree. Not what you should do. And he's, and he's a little bit different just because he's also a label. Yeah. You know, ain't came in a different time. He plays a different game. I'm just saying like, so he actually has a little bit more stake in artists coming up than some other artists do. So, right. So maybe that's a better way to put it. Maybe it's not smaller artists not listening to not wanting to not listen to bigger artists. They tend to not want to listen to artists that are in the same current industry that they're in, right? I want to go, I want advice from Young Thug. But Young Thug started popping in like 2011, 2012. The industry was a different place back then. You know what I'm saying? He can't, he can't really tell you how to navigate today because he's not a rising artist in today. Go ask advice from the artists that you saw on your TikTok timeline that went viral and that monthly listeners jumped up behind. Go ask their artists questions because that artist understands now. You know what I'm saying? But artists, are you willing to give that sauce? That's a whole other thing. Yeah, it's a whole other thing, yeah. So let's close this out with talking on the industry, their thoughts on what they could do better. What they could do better, we could just start here. Wale said that label should have mental health insurance. 100%. I agree. I don't think there's anything to discuss here. But Berkeley Online had an article and one of the quotes from Gleason is we're understanding that so much of it is systematic. Talking about depression in creative industry that goes beyond just the artists, which the mental health challenges for artists themselves can be a little bit easier to understand, but really we serve the music industry in its entirety. So crew people, agents and managers, they're saying all of these people experience a higher rate of depression than others in general, right? And here's why. They said, some of the reasons we're seeing more and more mental health struggle is because there's no governing body. There is no HR in most of these organizations. You gotta think. The music industry is wild, wild west. It's like, oh yeah, it's me and my artists and maybe we got a couple people on our team and we're indie or we have an independent label or we got the major label, but the major label is really just investing in a lot of small businesses. It's not this true centralization that we know we're all pushing the same product. It's not Amazon, right? So because of that, it's more like, yeah, everybody fends for themselves. And most people in terms of investing my money, you're like, I'm not about to build out a whole HR and that type of infrastructure and the things that might help pace how the organizations run, right? And I can see that, like basically, like I said, they said there's no governing body in most of the organizations and that sounds great. We love our freedom, you know what I'm saying? But at some point, you need it. Yeah, I think it's, you know, if we look at it from, I guess, the label's perspective, it could be, hey bro, to be real, I'm signing so many of yous. I don't even know if you're gonna be here in two years to where I should build a type of infrastructure that cares about you like that, right? Sounds fucked up, but that's what I think it is a lot of times. Like, hey man, we cycle through so many of yous. By the time, you think about a new artist, bro, like you sign, it's two years of bliss, two years of joy, two, three years of joy, maybe four to six, you know what I'm saying? The pen of the rise gets extended and then, let's say they fall off, by the time they start dealing with a lot of these things, like, or retroactively thinking about it, they ain't the label's problem no more, you know what I'm saying? They either been dropped or moved on to another situation and it's like, if I know that's gonna be like 60% of the people I'm bringing through, you know what I'm saying? I didn't know that money to build it, so I think it's fucked up, but I think like, that's where a lot of it probably comes from. Yeah, another thing they said is, there's still this notion that the show must go on. You don't get to call a mental health day or sick day. I've seen that change in some small labels. Many people have put their own mental health on the back burner for the good of the show or for their band. Then you get into the late nights and inconsistent sleep and the inconsistent financial side of things where you have to take work because you don't know when the next job is coming. So all this inconsistent, that's lack of stability is basically what they're saying, right? So yeah, financial, we know financial stressors, but let's talk inconsistent sleep, the state that puts you in, right? I got to see firsthand having a new child, right? A few years ago and that just puts your mind in another state and I say that because I've had other moments in times of inconsistent sleep or staying up night and things being wild, but you know, my life was freer back then. You're in college and you got less responsibility. It doesn't hit the same and it's almost like a cool freedom to it, right? But when it's like wrapped with responsibility, like a child or a job, it hits a lot different. And I talk about myself, I'm like my wife or any of the women who have to deal with it like their responsibilities on a whole another level inconsistent sleep and I need to feed you, you know what I'm saying? You need me to be fed, like there's a whole- I'm gonna feed you and me? Exactly, there's a whole another level of stressor and then I got to watch the mental issues that come from that, like just the stress of how it's hard to process certain things or remember certain things or the moodiness of it all. And then you add that to everything we just talked about in terms of the creative industry already and artists being innately or inherently a little bit more likely because of where creativity takes you, it's a fucking concoction, bro. You got a cauldron of all these ingredients that put you in a worse place and that's the consistent environment that we're asking most artists to live in. Yeah, the worst part about it is that sometimes we make more money after your life being fucked up, right? If you- A lot of times. A lot of times, yeah, if you're an artist and you tire, you sleep deprived, you go to a restaurant, you pop off on the waiter, now we taking that clip, putting it on Shade Run, we putting the budget up to get it out there that you did it because that shit gonna drive people to your album. So it's all almost like, hey man, when you peaceful, you not doing nothing. When you not sleeping, when you well rested, you fed, things are okay at home, you chill, you don't do crazy shit. But when you stressed and you going through these things, you do things that give us a marketing moment. You do things that give us a narrative. You do things that give the people a reason to either be for you or be against you. You know what I'm saying? So I think that's the difference of real life is like, in real life, you incentivize to figure it out and fix it as fast as possible because that shit is affecting my day to day. I ain't slept in three days and because of it, I forgot to do this thing at work and I could get fired versus as an artist. It's like, man, this shit might get, my fuckers might get monetized and actually make me go up in my career. You know what I'm saying? It might rise me up instead of bringing me down. Yeah, but I think some of that too also has to kind of be on the artist. Like, you know, it's hard to talk to young artists about it. I actually just had a conversation with a guy in our consulting program about this on Friday. He's talking about, he was like, yeah, man, I don't get like how you and Sean, like, you know what I'm saying? I do the consulting program, y'all shoot the podcast, like y'all niggas must don't sleep. Like, who don't sleep? I said, bro, I get at least six hours every day. Anybody sleep, Jacory, sleep, bro. I sleep, bro. I said, I said, bro, I get at least six. If I can help it, I catch a nap. I said, bro, Sean be in bed by like 10, up at like four in the morning. He was like, for real? Like, Sean sleeps at like 10. I said, yeah, bro, Sean go to bed like 10 and wake up and be writing me measures like four o'clock in the morning. So I'm assuming he got at least seven hours of sleep. And he's like, man, that's crazy. Cause like I'm consistently living off of like three or four and I'm like, wow, like who's making you do that? He's like, I just thought they're like, that's what people do. I said, bro, look, that's what I've learned. I said, when you young and you stupid, that's what you think is going on. And then you start meeting real motherfuckers with money and every person I know that has millions of dollars damn niggas sleep. They don't do nothing else they gon' sleep. Taking advantage of niggas who ain't gettin' sleep. Cause my decisions are better. Oh, we want to negotiate, bro. You tired, bro. You about to give out ease. You ain't well rested. You didn't have breakfast this morning. Hey dawg, it was literally, so as a quick aside, there's an investor called Carl Icon. Like, he's known for corporate takeovers. And one of his methods would be, schedule these late night meetings for the negotiations, right? And this nigga would sleep all day. These lawyers and everybody would arrive to negotiation tired as fuck for a full day of work. And he well rested. He ain't that bitch fresh, right? So no, if you think sleep ain't a part of the answer. Oh no, that's part of the answer for success. Like, hands out. That's not even like the fluff-foo-foo advice and all, sleep is a real thing. Yeah, real thing, bro. That's what, to me, it makes me feel like one of the, I guess, high level skills I think every artist should figure out is time management. Cause like, you'll let work become your excuse for not doing basic things to take care of yourself. But why didn't you eat lunch today? Oh man, I had a steel session. So you tell me, you know what I'm saying? Before you went to the steel, after you couldn't find time for breakfast, you couldn't find time to eat. Yeah, why didn't you get no sleep last night? Oh, I was staying up, playing the game with my fans in Discord. I mean, you can't, you can't, you couldn't tell them nigga, this is the time to go. I gotta go to sleep, right? Like learning that balance is important. And like I said, most young artists figured out way later in life. I would say if a artist pops at 18, they probably don't really figure out it's about 23, 24, you know what I'm saying? Which is like, you see a lot of older artists when they pop, they should look way more put together because they've already figured this out by the time they got to that position, right? Hey, I need time for sleep. I need time for my family. And you know, maybe, hey, I got 24 hours in a day, two go towards eating, six goes to sleep. And then the rest I put to work, you know what I'm saying? Or whatever, but like time management is very important because like the whole system breaks down from just like one wrong mistake in that department. I over scheduled something, I overbooked something, I forgot to do something, I ran out of time to do something, everything could break down because of that one thing. Domino effect, man. Find you a high performing woman, a high performing professional woman. She will know how to manage time, bro. The best people I see at time management are women, man. They be killing it out of, the high performing woman was killing her professional career and you'll be like, all right, but she ain't gonna have no time for all the, no, they know how to do all the self care, all the things that they wanted to get that vacation in. They figured that shit out, bro. I'll be looking at it like, yo, man, how you out there? Well, my sister's one of those, like, I'm telling you, man, they break that shit down, bro. They got it. I had this girl I'm talking to. And the other day when we was about to shoot a pocket, we was about to shoot last Monday. And I was like, oh, I got to be at Sean's house in 30 minutes, so I'm gonna leave out at 10.30. She's like, no, you need to leave out right now. I was like, wow, she's like, all right, it's gonna be two minutes for you to find your keys. It's gonna be five minutes for you to walk to the car. It's gonna be two minutes for you at just your seatbelt. You probably gonna stop by the gas and get a snack, that's a four minute ride. And I was like, damn, she right. I don't need to leave right now. Like, I was like, damn, I ain't thinking about this random nine minutes that's gonna be on top of it. So you're right, bro. I didn't, bro. Tell me. I just was like, oh, it's 11.30 or 10.30. It take me 30 minutes to get to Sean's house. If I walk out the door at 10.30, I should be there at 11. And he's like, nah, it don't work like that. It really don't. See, I'm telling you, man, we might have to figure out how to make that a real conversation. A real conversation. Before we get out of here, the one last conversation around the industry, which is just a natural conflict of business and creativity. Now, I believe the peak of humanity is art in the science, right? That's the creativity and channeling that creativity, right? But I think the nature of the artist, right? Or the creative, when that's your main job, you know, creativity isn't something that's necessarily scalable at its, in its raw state, right? So I can't say, oh, I'm going to create the best album in the world in one week. And then I'm going to go create an even better album in another week, right? It doesn't necessarily work like that. You have to have successes and failures. These ebbs and flows because you're looking for those damn infinity stones, right? Like, and you can't always find them at the peak. You need some of that failure to even create the gym, right? You need that pressure. So it's not a predictable process. Creativity isn't a predictable process. With that being said, then how do I scale it? Because business is always looking for scale. How can I get it to the most people, right? The most sales and how can I do it at the highest frequency, right? And how can I copy that over and over again for the lowest cost? That's a natural conflict when it comes to being creative as an individual and then dealing with many creatives as a whole. Which is why you see labels like, how can I try to give as little money as possible and then get as many of them as possible so one of these can work? Because really, I can't predict. I can put everything in the, this is what we try to tell y'all as marketers. Like a lot of these marketers are a lot to y'all guarantee things. What the best people can do is put you in the best position to win but they cannot guarantee you a win, right? Even if it just means an individual song, you can be a pop and artist. I could put this song in the best position to go viral or to win but I can't guarantee it's gonna go viral or a win. And that's the natural conflict that again and again is never gonna leave in the music industry. Creating music, that is what it is. But the music industry, the music business as it is, as it sits today, there's going to be that. Yeah, yeah, no getting around it, man. It goes back to the artist bringing the cycle, man, I don't wanna go back to that but it's all fees into each other. It all fees together, which again, this is why the environment is so rough. So really quickly to get out of here, the ways that we feel like the industry can support is one, help artists build communities instead of just being a commodity, right? Help them become these brands. But hey, the investment, the logistics, I know that's hard to just like one off say that but if you can help artists be a brand and build beyond just the music themselves so it can be easier to be financially stable, that helps. Anything that helps artists with finances help. Matter of fact, just educate artists all around on the business and how they manage themselves and the people around them. Anything in that area that helps. Also provide educational opportunities for them in the same way that the NBA and NFL do, right? There's other industries, right? Other industries and entertainment. As a rookie, come into the league, they have a whole symposium for NFLs, for NFL players and NBA players. Come into the league, hey, look, these type of women are gonna be coming for y'all, right? This is how you manage it. This is what it looks like. This is the first time you got X amount of dollars. Don't go for that. You're gonna have these amount of people ask you for money. This is how you can handle it. You need the resources, you have your vet. So that's what a lot of great teams have, right? They'll say, this is my vet. This is the person almost that's assigned to me. Like when you go to HBCU and you have people assigned to you, right, that you can lean on. I don't know anybody I at least kind of get this relationship with somebody that I can lean on for these type of questions, right? So like creating some type of environment, I believe if somehow the music industry can model what the NBA and NFL does for their rookies would be groundbreaking for artists in terms of just overall success in their careers, including the mental health of things. And then also mental health insurance, that's what Wiley talked about. And I feel like that's enough. We can't put much into an auto music industry. Those are the key things we came up with. We would love to know you guys' thoughts on, the way fans contribute, how fans can support, the way artists contribute to this issue, how artists can support, how the industry contributes and how the industry can support to make things better. Hopefully you guys enjoy this episode. Hopefully you guys understand that this stressor is a part of this industry as a whole. Because by the way, outside of artists and creatives, I didn't mention this, probably could do a whole another episode on this, artists are also entrepreneurs. And you know who else experiences higher rates of depression, entrepreneurs. All of this goes back to lack of stability. So hopefully you found a safe place in this conversation. And in the comments hopefully. In the comment section. Show love, we appreciate y'all. This is yet another episode of No Labels Necessary Podcast. I'm Brain Man, Sean. And I'm Cory. And we out. Peace.