 You know, my first car was a 68 Chevelle. How far did you have back then? All right. Ready? Yeah. Here we go. I'm Scott Rausmo, body language expert and analyst. I train law enforcement in the military and interrogation and body language. And I created the number one online body language course, bodylanguagetactics.com with Greg Hartley. Mark. I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language. Helping people all over the world to stand out, win trust, gain credibility. Every time they communicate, including some of the leaders of the G7, Chase. Hey, I'm Chase Hughes, the number one bestselling author in behavior, profiling, influence and persuasion. I train intelligence operatives and the general public in those topics. And you can text me at the number right in the description of this video. Greg. Currently, I'm a former Army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor of written 10 books on body language and behavior and put together this body language tactics at bodylanguagetactics.com course with Scott and I spend most of my time on Wall Street and corporate America. All right. Today we're going to talk about a woman named Stephanie Lazarus and she's in pretty big trouble for murdering her ex-boyfriend's wife. And Greg, you found the video. So why don't you tell us about it? Yeah. So guys, people have asked us for this one since we started the show. And I just kept saying, yeah, everybody's done it. Everybody's done it. Everybody's done it. And then I looked at the video and thought, well, I see why everybody's done it. You're going to have a great time with us. And we had to call the number of videos and we still have way too many. There's so much stuff going on here. There's a lot of stuff from an interrogation point of view that will point out. There's a lot of stuff here. Basically, what happened was she had not been dating the guy. If you go read, go read wiki or somewhere you can find out the storyline. But she had not been dating the guy for a while and then he gets married and then she goes has an altercation with the wife. She gets away with it for 20 plus years. And finally, these detectives closed the case based on some new information. DNA is what broke the case. DNA was not useful at the time it happened. And she bit the woman in the process of the fight and they swabbed the bite and they had DNA from her and it will go further as we get into this thing. But really a weird little case and she is a circus of body language. So you'll have a great time. Awesome. Now, remember as we go through this, here's what we're doing. If you've never seen our show before, this is what we do. We're just going to look at these videos and we're going to tell you what we see in this person's body language. We don't care if they're guilty, we don't care if they're innocent. We're Switzerland. Where is this telling you what we see? We don't know much about the black backstory of the case. I know I don't. I don't know if you guys do or not and don't really care. So keep that in mind as we're going through this. We're just telling you what we see in the body language of this person that we're talking about. All right. OK, were you guys just friends or anything else? Or yeah, we were good friends. Yeah. Was there any relationship or anything that developed between you guys? Yeah, I mean, we dated, you know, I mean, what's this all about? Well, it's relating to his wife. OK. OK. Did you know her? Not really. I mean, I knew that he married years ago. Did you ever meet her? God, I don't know. Do you know who she was or anything? Well, I think God spent a long time ago. I may have met her. Jeez, you know. Yeah. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, great. Just a couple of things very quickly. At the start of it, it doesn't look like you can see a lot of nonverbal. But what you can hear is her hand hitting the desk time and time again. That could be anxiety. It also could be some form of territorial aggression as well, trying to see the other people out of the territory. So great to hear that very, very clear red flag already for me on that one. And then the other thing I want to talk about there is between the um, um, and I may have I may have met her. I think we see a micro expression of fear right there for anybody who knows the animations of Nick Parks and Wallace and Gromit. It is a full Wallace and Gromit, you know, kind of look of fear on the face, hugely animated. So I think we see that there. But, you know, go back yourselves, take a look, slow it down, see what you think on that one. Chase, what do you got on this one? Yeah, I agree with you. I think there's a lot of distancing language here. So there's a lot of not really. Then again, not really. It was years ago. Did you ever meet her? She says, God, I don't know. They're more distancing. It's been such a long time ago, more distancing. I may have met her more distancing. And I want to tell you that there's in my training, I teach there's four things that guilty people go through that after the crime has been committed, they go through gravity of just a realization of what's going on. They go through rationalization. Well, I did it because of this. I had to do it. Then they go through projection and it's somebody else's fault because or it's this environment or parents, whatever. Then they go through stage four, which is denial, planning, planning some kind of a story on what's going on. And here's a cool tip that no matter if you're talking to your kids or somebody at work, that suspects will typically reveal a few things right away in the interrogation, not just their baseline. One, they're going to show you their denial strategy because they've been going through this denial strategy. And they'll typically reveal the theme of how they processed guilt psychologically. And here we're seeing and hearing her use time as a cleanser of sins and memory. So we're seeing a lot of distancing right off the bats, which is her denial strategy and time has cleansed so many things. So this is this is what she's gone through as she's starting to have this conversation. Keep in mind she was tricked into coming into this building and then kind of got this thing dropped on her. So we're seeing a whole lot of stress right off the beginning. Great. Yeah, a couple of things that are not public and not clear here. Yes, she was tricked into coming here. And specifically, this is a lock up, so she would leave her gun somewhere else. That's masterful by the investigators. Now, remember, she's also an investigator. She's talked to a lot of people who have used many different means of deception. And we're going to see them. Normally, when police officers are talking to each other, they're going to have a conversation. They're not going to make it pulling teeth to get information. Look at everything she does is stop short of giving you any information like a conversation and you have to pull it out. But these two guys are sharp and they do iterative interrogation, meaning they go after a little bit. And then when she doesn't answer the question, they ask the next question. She does that single shoulder thing. Mark, I'm not sure that this is not a drop and not a she's moving her shoulder and then drops her hand more than anything else in this one, at least. When she says, what's this all about drops back in the chair. A blink rate goes through the roof. It's really then she goes to some internal conversation. She drops her eyes down to the left and you can't tell where that really means anything or not, or whether she's trying to figure out what they're asking. But she only answers what they ask. It's very, very clear. She's learned something from the people she's interrogated over the years. And we're going to see a lot of that as we go through. She's going to throw the kitchen sink at them. Scott, what do you got? Yeah. All right. Well, I'm a little bit different than you guys and what the arms mean. But we'll get that in just a second or what the flail around the table means. But we're hearing a lot of stress. This is like you said, she's been surprised. So she's realizing what's happening to her and the distancing we're hearing and the denial stuff that Chase is talking about. She's she's structuring her story at that point. She's she doesn't know what kind of information they have. She doesn't know how much they have. So she's staying back and she's looking at the field and seeing what's coming. And she's grabbing these parts and she's taking them over here and she's backing them off while she collects this information because that's how she's got to construct her story that works for her that doesn't make her get in trouble with these guys. Right. These and the greatest questions where he says, did you know, did you know who she was or anything? How open ended can you get? That's that's perfect. I think that that's awesome. And so she has to say something. She's trying not to say anything when she tries, but she has to say something. This and what we're here when she's when she hits her hand on the table. It's not an illustrator. It's it's an adapter because that's what she she has at this point. She has nothing. She's really far up. She's right in the face and stuff. She starts playing on her hands. We're going to see this throughout here. So think of it as an adapter, not as much an illustrator or or and market could be right. Maybe it's a territorial thing. But I think it's an adapter because when she hits those things, she feels it and that releases some of that pent up stress or energy. And she's got tons of it because she's she's not quite in a panic state yet because it's just hitting her. She's like, oh, no, she's deciding. She's about to figure out what's going on with her. Her face at this point, it's just pretty much expressionless at the top as she's as she's talking to. We do see we'll get into the blending of expressions here in the next one. But she she opens as she opens her thing. No solid denials. She doesn't say no to anything. And we hear the word think for the first time here. And we'll hear throughout this because I think that's what happened. Oh, yeah, that that could be she's saving these. She's saying think so she can have room to to backpedal and go back and save herself. And oh, yeah, you're right. I remember now so she's collecting all this information. That's her goal right now is to get all the information she can. So she can structure a story that goes with what they're talking about. So she won't get get in as much trouble. And I think that I think they knew they they had her right out of the gate. They they had the DNA. So they knew it was her. But when when this started, I think it's at all. Well, we got it out. I bet you the first break they took where they went out. They said, dude, we got this one. This is this is this is simple. And I'm sure if she had listened, she could hear him giggling in the next room. That's how that's how that's how much that's how confident I think they probably were with this. And the more they question her, the more she begins turtling. She starts like and we see the very beginnings of that. And she and notice where her head is at this point in that room, the little line above her head or near her head because she gets as it goes along. She gets further and further down. And we talk about turtling. That's what someone does when they're distancing themselves from some. They're trying to make themselves look smaller. If someone's getting ready to rob a store or there's or their shoplifting, you can watch them from the cameras. You can watch them at a distance and they'll get really still and they'll bring their shoulders in their head will come down. And she's starting that. And so this is this is a wonderful group of videos. We got a lot of them, but it's a great group of videos that we'll we'll be looking at. All right, we're good. Yeah, let me give you a line. Look at this fixture, this plate for the switches that's above her head. It's right at her hair right now, right at the little poofy part of her hair. Just watch it over time. By the time we get video 10, that thing is way up here in her head is way down. So watch it. Yeah. OK, were you guys just friends or anything else? Yeah, we were. We were good friends. Yeah. Was there any relationship or anything that developed between you guys? Yeah, I mean, we dated, you know, I mean, what's this all about? Well, it's relating to his wife. OK, OK, did you know her? Not really. I mean, I knew that he married years ago. Did you ever meet her? God, I don't know. Do you know who she was or anything? Well, I think it's been a long time ago. Um, I may have met her. Geez, you know. Yeah. OK, here we go. Did you ever met his wife? I may have. Do you know, do you remember her name or anything or? Um, or what she did for a living or where she worked or anything about her? Well, I think she I'm going to say I think she was a nurse. Um, man, I can't remember how he said he met her. I mean, I mean, it's been so long ago. Well, let me ask you, did you go to their wedding, you know? No, I didn't go to their wedding. No, I don't did not go to their wedding. Couldn't even tell you what year he got married. I mean, you know, it's been a million years ago. You ever remember if you ever talked to her? Because it seems like a lot of you who were at the school at UCLA, you guys kind of were friends during and after school. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so we're going to see a pattern in what she does here. She's a master of chaff and redirect. She knows exactly what she's doing, give her a chance. She's just like, I don't remember what year that is. One of the more interesting things and it's not going to show up in here. But if you go watch her interview, it's only about an hour and 12 minutes, the entire thing. But if you watch it, she does something I call anchor and redirect. She starts off by saying I've taken 10,000 photos. And anytime you bring up a topic, she'll say, I'm going to go back and look at what year that was based on the photo. And then she'll redirect. That's anchor and redirect because I'm going to do a recall and comedy they call it a recall or callback. And you're going to have that thing when a standup comic goes back to an earlier topic. She does the same thing. And I call that anchor and redirect. We'll see it time and time again if you watch this video. She's got some distaste and her blink rates up when he's asking what did she know what this woman did for work. Then she goes, I don't even know how he met her. Well, there's chaff and redirect. What year it was, there's chaff and redirect. Then at the wedding, lip compression at the wedding, holding back some emotion. That could be some of this could just be normal for her, but I don't think so. She does an exhale. I think when people do that, Mark, you'll talk about territory. I think it's just to get away from me kind of a move, whether you call it territory or something else. But if you pay attention to her, you're going to see that every time she gets to a point where I said earlier, I think Trump might have taught her to do body language, all that weird facial expressions he did during the debates because she's doing a lot of that and then she feigns confusion. Really? I don't know what you're talking about. So we're seeing a lot of that pattern and that's been what's successful for her. As we always say, the organism does what made the organism successful. So, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I agree. I think the outbreaths are within that mold of territorial. Like you say, she has been literally caged at this point. It's a territory that she should have more power in usually. And she's disempowered in this territory. So I think some of what we're seeing is her trying to win back power in this kind of situation. I think at the same time, because we are already seeing quite a bit of stress, we know the extent that she feels she's lost power as well. She's playing that befuddled, you know, pained expression again to start to become something of a victim in all of this by not being able to recall, not quite be able to understand. And then, you know, she'll turn it into the narrative later on of, you know, what is this all about? There's a there's a slight jut out and with her chin and a stress in her voice on the idea of nurse, which would suggest to me some emotional impact of not the job, but this person. So she knows the person. She knows their job and the same thing on met her as well. So that seems significant to me. And a hand goes out in a in a supplicant gesture. So again, at the same time as there being some territorial aggressive markers in there, the same time, she's got the opposite of wanting to be supplicant and need help, help in, you know, working out what this is all about and why this is also confusing and painful. Chase, what do you got on this one? Yeah, I agree with you guys. It's when she's saying I may have this is more distancing. And I'll give you a tip here from an interrogator standpoint. Any interrogation school you go to, I don't care what it is. They're going to tell you the more officers are in the room, the less likely your chances of confession are. I don't think so. In this case, she's used to being a senior officer at you to automatically feel superior to one person. So they teach you in police interrogation school. Don't wear your gun. Don't wear your badge. Don't be in a uniform. It's it's you're better off to get to go in there and civilian clothes. But I don't think that's true in this case. One thing we're doing or that we're seeing here is a fight or flight response called threat tracking. And these are the rapid head turns that you're seeing in the room when she responds to one interrogator, then back to the other one, rapidly tracking of potential threats in the room. And we see this constant eyebrow flash when you're up and trying to communicate. I'm extremely cooperative and innocent. But we see some rapid blinking, almost an eye flutter. During this question response, when she's starting to starting to speak, and I think this is one of those times when that's the equivalent of you shutting off all the apps, taking up space in your phone and trying to just focus on the one thing. And when she says I didn't go to the wedding, I think that was a truthful response. But when she says it was a million years ago, she's calling back to her strategy of time being a cleanser here. And when the interrogator asked, did you ever talk to her? There's a fear micro expression and Chen boss movement at the same time, which you very rarely see. I'm so I'll speak for myself. I have very rarely seen in just about every interrogation video. And I think these exaggerated facial expressions and kind of this artificial recall is what I'll call it. They're like pretending to look down to think about something what you see here. They're mitigation strategy that I think she is unconscious. A lot of the stuff we say when they're thinking about doing this, this and this, we're talking about unconscious processes, stuff that's not in our within our awareness. So I think these false facial expressions are I need to appear genuine, friendly, cooperative, and I am an expressive person. So I must be truthful. My face is all over the place. I'm expressing myself. It has to be truthful. Scott, what do you think about that? I agree 100 percent. And what we're seeing, this is this is where we get into these the blending of these expressions you're seeing here, because what we're all talking about is these little expressions we're seeing, what we're actually seeing here are a combination of two and sometimes three expressions. Now, here's the way this works. When you have surprise, you can look at your eyes and they'll be like this. And that's the surprise that when your eyes are wide open, this part of your head, your eyebrows bring up your bring your lids open so you can get as much information as you possibly can. But from there down in these cases, we're not seeing surprise. We're seeing other things. We're seeing a combination of happiness. We're seeing a combination of sadness. And just sometimes we're seeing a combination of anger, which we're seeing here and the happiness here. So the and sometimes it's subtle and sometimes it's huge. These are the biggest ones I've ever seen in my life. I've never seen so many in a row and in groupings like this in these clusters. It's bizarre. I don't know why nobody's ever brought this up before and said, are you kidding me about this? So that's what we're looking at in those cases. Again, no strong denials. She never says, she never comes out of the gate and says, Hey man, I see what you guys are doing. I know where you're going with this. I didn't do this. No, she doesn't say and she never once agrees totally with anything. She's still gathering that information. And like Chase said, she's putting on a show. She's got a show coming on for these guys. So she's, so she's coming on like, oh, I'm showing confusion and all these other things. But at the same time, the leak there is when she's blending those facial expressions because those emotions are there, the surprise. She's surprised about all this. Later on, she's going to say she was shocked at the end when they cuff her up. And we're actually seeing shock in her face here as well. So that's a lot of the surprise. So she's going to be being honest about that. And that's about the only thing as we go through this. Another couple of things you guys were talking about were some of these really quick facial expressions. And a lot of times those are emotional emblems. You know, you'll see those and you'll do these things. Well, they'll be more of conversational punctuators is what they're called when you are talking instead of saying, I didn't like that guy and you won't be angry at the time but you'll be showing the anger face to say, I didn't like that guy. Or if it's discussed, you may say, dude, I didn't like eating there. It was horrible. But you're not disgusted then but you're showing this emblem, in other words, conversational emblem of disgust to show them what you experienced. And if that makes sense at all. And the conversational punctuators are when you see those little things come up like we use illustrators. Instead of doing this, this, and this, they'll do this, this, and this. You'll see those pop out really quick. They're not micro expressions, but they're punctuating or illustrating. They're just another way of illustrating. I've seen so much in here. I've got so much on all this stuff. The stress we're showing, again, is just for the show she's putting on for the detectives. And we know she's stressed by the combinations of these combinations of expressions. They go from drastically over this way to one and then dramatically over this way to another one. They're just too much. But at the same time, she's distancing. That's a show she's putting on and she's not paying attention to what she's doing like Chase was saying. This is all subconsciously we're doing these things. But she's, again, distancing herself so she can get that structure together as she gathers that information so she can structure her story. As soon as she gets enough information from them, then she'll be able to put up a shield and say, oh, you remember that? I said that back then. And she'll see where they're going with it and start putting them all together. She has no idea they have this DNA. No idea whatsoever that's coming down the right. What are you gonna say, Greg? Oh, she's made a mistake already. A big mistake. I didn't know her well, maybe I did. Yeah, there's the beginning of her story. And they know that, they see it. Oh yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like right out of the gate, they knew they had her. Especially so, I'm not sure. I don't know that kind of thing. That's when they're like, oh, yeah, it's over for you, man. So I'll stop there. I've got tons of this stuff on here, but I think it's fascinating that there's all this going on and we've never heard anybody talk about that before. It kind of bums me out. We haven't gone over her before, but that's, I guess, it's a circus. Request to do it. Yeah, all right. Did you ever met his wife? I may have. Do you remember her name or anything? Or what she did for a living or where she worked or anything about her? Well, I think she, I'm gonna say it. I think she was a nurse. I mean, I can't remember how he said he met her. I mean, it's been so long ago. Well, let me ask you, did you go to their wedding? No, I didn't go to their wedding. No, I did not go to their wedding. Couldn't even tell you what year he got married. I mean, it's been a million years ago. You ever remember if you ever talked to her? Because it seems like a lot of you who were at the school at UCLA, you guys kind of were friends during and after school, so. You ready? Yeah. Here we go. Do you know what happened to his wife? Yeah, I know she got killed. What did you hear about that? I got saw a poster at work. I'm sure I spoke to him about it. I think I spoke to another friend of his about it. And how did you first learn about that? James. Someone could have called me. I could heard it at work. I think at one point there may have been a flyer or something. Chase, what do you got? So we see the rapid head tracking again to the authorities in the room, potential threat. This is a fighter flight response. There's more of this extended eyebrow flashing. I'm totally innocent and friendly. I'm not the right person. Let's move on to the next suspect. And this rapid head nodding again, when she's speaking. So you're gonna see all of her behavior starting to move quickly. And as a quick tip, I've been doing a lot of tips tonight. As a quick tip, the more fear an animal feels, the faster its body language will be. You think of the difference between a Chihuahua, like Hattie or my dog who's back here sleeping. The bigger the dog or the less afraid the dog is, the slower they're gonna move. Something goes bump in the house in the middle of the night that you always hit is gonna move up at 100 miles an hour. The big dog will just kind of maybe just pick its head up a little bit. So the less fearful an animal is, the slower that animal will move. And if you wanna start commanding respect in meetings or anytime you're speaking to people, try to slow your body down to the point where I'm not gonna move faster than if I was standing in a swimming pool and make that a speed limit and start testing that out for a week. That aside, all the statements are maximizing uncertainty. There's an upward tone. There's a cleansing process of time suggested here. And in most cases, I don't know is 100% acceptable if it's true. This is why you'll almost never see discomfort in couched repetition when someone does not genuinely recall something. This is couched fake repetition and recall. Scott, what do you got? All right, well, voice tones getting higher and so is her cadence is speeding up and here comes the stress. We're not quite in panic mode yet, but she's on her way. The number of different facial expressions in these blends increases. And that's why we're seeing those eyebrow flashes that Chase is talking about. It's a surprise, along with the other expression that's lower. A lot of times that's gonna be, it's gonna show happiness and they're gonna show a little bit of confusion, sometimes sadness because she's actually getting ready to start going in shock at what she's hearing. It's dawned on her what's happened. She knows what's going on, but she's got to pretend like later on that it's dawned on her. So she's gearing up for that. Again, no strong anything here. No strong denials, no strong acceptances. She's still gathering information to structure that story that you're ready for that. And going forward, let's pay attention to all these big expressions she's making. It's gonna be almost impossible to count them all. But watch how she goes dramatically from one to the other really quickly from one to the other and they get huge. And that's really important because that shows you the amount of stress that indicates the stress she's going under at this point. She does the head scratch and that's sort of an adapter and a pacifier at this point. And it looks good, I'm confused as she goes through this that helps with that. And when she says, I think I spoke to a friend about it, then we're seeing that lip compression following that. She's got more information about that. She knows exactly what happened, but the lip compression suggests that indicates that she's holding back information. She has guilty knowledge about that. The increased head movement becomes just a staple of her behavior at this point. It's her baseline at this point, moving on. And blowing out of the, you know, when she goes, when she's blowing out air, that's a classic, let's get rid of some pent up stress or energy, whatever it, yeah. So anxiety, you hear that, you do that every day. Everybody does that. You're gonna be kidding me, and you'll blow, do a big thing of blowing air out. And the detective says, oh, what did you hear about that? Her hands go up, her open hands go up. Now, most of the time when you see someone do this, as they're explaining what happened and you're being aggressive toward them and you say, did you do this? I wouldn't do it. That's called, or I refer to it as mercy hands. When you see that, most of the time that person is not being honest with you. They're being deceptive at that point there. There are no absolutes. I'm not saying it happens every time, but in this case, obviously that's what we're seeing. But when you see that, take that into consideration, this might not be the truth. Not just like, oh, they're just doing that and I hear it might not be. It doesn't happen every time, but most of the time, when you see that, especially if there are two, that's when you can say, you know what? I'm gonna put my chips over here on the, I think she's full of a card. I think she's being deceptive card at that point. So we're just seeing the stress increase and her face is pretty much telling the story that that's happening. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so it is a complete dog's dinner of gestures, especially in the face. There's just too much happening too quickly. It's just too much of a melange for it to be truthful and real. It's just bad acting and this is classically what would show up in front of me when you've got somebody who is a poor actor is they haven't worked out that actually human beings when they're really in real life, really doing stuff, are really, really simple because they have one through line that they're trying to get. They're usually trying to deal with just one thing, not several things at the same time. We're not really that complexly psychological when we're getting on with our daily life and something where we have a really clear line of thought. There was a guy who invented modern, pretty good acting, a guy called Konstantin Stanislavski and he invented something called the method of physical action where he went, well, you know, actors are really, they just need to do action and they need some kind of methodical way of working out what action to do so it'll always look real and truthful. And he said, well, you've always got this super objective and an objective at most. So at most, kind of two things going on at the same time. The reason she is such a muddle at the moment is she has too many things that she's trying to deal with. So we get at the start this feigned surprise gesture that holds for way too long and looks like it's something out of a Victorian manual on how to do good stage acting and then you get, oh, then you get the scratch of the head as well and I agree with you on that one, Scott. It comes out of the Victorian stage manual of when thinking about the past, always scratch the back of your head, then the audience knows you're... That's where I got it. That's where you got it. Yeah, it's in the manual. It's like she's read the manual on good stage acting and of course for us, it just looks like terrible acting because she needs to just make a choice, make it bigger and keep it tidy. She needs one story to go with and hold on to that but as everybody's been saying, she doesn't know what story to do right now because she doesn't know what story they're gonna play at the moment. So she's trying to play a lot of different stories and she's under increasing pressure. She's in a territory that she should be used to but she's disempowered in that. So it's a complete, complete mess and it's only gonna get worse and worse and worse for her. Greg, what have you got on this one? Yeah, so I'll take you down the same path. You guys have done it. Take it a little bit more detail. Fighter Flight is our most primitive part of our brain coming in to protect us from something. I'll also tell you that when I went through Sears School, I always go back to there. I had worked there a few classes beforehand and so I thought I knew how I would deal with it. No, not so much. When you get there, suddenly you know the game but you don't really know the game and that's where she's at. So her Fighter Flight is gonna rise more rapidly because she knows what to expect. Number one, when that Fighter Flight hits, you're all dead on, we speed up and because we're trying to take in more data, you see her moving her head around more rapidly. The other thing is you watch her respiration increase. It's starting to pick up. When we start to panic, when we get in a bind, the next thing that happens for us is that we start to create kind of an exoskeleton. We pull our elbows into our side, we protect those vital organs because we're the only animal dumb enough to walk around with our soft white underbelly exposed. So Scott, you're dead on. When people do this and they're holding their hands up which go hands of mercy, they often forget to take their elbows away from their side and they don't look believable. So watch for that when a person's in Fighter Flight. As this person goes into Fighter Flight, they're also gonna innately mirror the people across from them. So if they have a plan on how they're doing their own face and the other person's doing something and they're trying to keep track with them, they're gonna try to do something different and so they're gonna have all kinds of transitions that don't look normal. We see that in interrogation all the time when a person's trying to emulate your body language because we innately know to do it and then things start to fall apart. This touching the head, we've all covered it, I won't beat it again, but it's unique in this moment in this video. So she's now in a bind and they ask her, do you know what happened? I know she got killed, hmm. Who says she got killed? The cops often say people, she got killed. Usually she was murdered. They use language that means something other than it. Maybe she just kind of has that kind of a hip thing going on but I don't think so. As you would call it, chase severity softening. There's a lot going on with her here and if you watch her, then my favorite part of this entire thing, how did you find out? Well, there's a checklist of ways it could have been because every one of those is not what happened and so she wants as much distance as she can possibly get. I won't beat up the things you've already hit but just know that that exoskeleton's going to create and this body is gonna start protecting itself and all her eyes are doing right now and by looking is trying to find the most threatening thing that's there so she can have a response plan and she's got a plan because she's seen this over and over and over in an interrogation room. What she doesn't realize is just like me in Sears School, she can't play the game the same way she could when she was watching it as an detached observer so she's in trouble. That's mine. Awesome. Do you know what happened to his wife? Yeah, I know she got killed. What did you hear about that? I got saw a poster at work. I'm sure I spoke to him about it. I think I spoke to another friend of his about it. And how did you first learn about that? James. Someone could have called me, I could heard it at work. I think at one point there may have been a flyer or something. I mean, I could have been working in Hollywood, sounds like if that's where I was working. So I could have said, okay, well, and I went and talked to her and just said, hey, you know what, if he's dating you, he keeps calling me, why don't you tell him to knock it off or whatever? Because I probably would have told him to knock it off. You would have told John. Oh yeah, I mean, I would have said, hey, and again. But you wanted to tell her too? You wanted them both to know? Yeah, I mean, you're getting called. I'm faintly remembering when Scott moved in with me in 1993, sometime in 93, because I met Scott in April of 92. I was teaching dare up in Oregon. And he moved down, in fact, he may have moved down in 92. 92 or 93, there was a big earthquake. No, when was a big earthquake? 1994. 1994, yeah. So he moved, I think Scott might have moved in in 93, sometime in 93. Excuse me, I haven't had my breakfast yet. And so, excuse me, and so I faintly recall that John may have called a few times and I'm like, hey, I've got, he goes, can you talk or something? I'm like, no, I can't talk. I'm living with somebody. Right. And that could have been a few times. It could have been once, could have been twice, could have been three times. I don't know. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I'm only gonna hit a few things. I'll leave a lot of stuff for you guys. Now she did know her. Well, I guess I did know her. Well, hold on. Now she did talk to her. Guys, if you're gonna say I didn't know this person, you don't 30 minutes later go, well, I did talk to her. And I was a little irritated. You're in trouble already. You should, by now, you should be getting a lawyer if you're in this problem. I probably would, then I did. Even in the same sentence, I probably would, I did. This is now a place where she can't get out and this guy's gonna iteratively interrogate her and take away whatever information he wants. When she burps, I love the fact she's an investigator and she knows that means something. And she tries to cover it up with a smile. And we're all sitting there and they are too going, yep, she's on the ropes. Then she does that nervous smile. She does chaff and redirect. I'm gonna stop right here and say what he does wonderfully, he lets her chaff all she wants but there's no redirect. He doesn't bite and she runs out of things where she even has to say, well, what date was it? He locks the chaff down and hands it right back to her. Beautiful way to go. Scott, what do you got? Yeah, I agree, man. Yeah, this is getting good. So the multiple shoulder shrug, you say, oh, we know she's lying because she's doing that. That just indicates that she's unsure what's happening. She's nervous. She's not sure what she's gonna say. She's still gathering information. At this point, she has enough to where she's got to start going forward because she said, you know, strong denials have not happened nothing so far but she's got to start doing something. So she starts moving forward. And so that's what happens, but she's unsure about what she's doing it or as she does it, that's why we're seeing all that shoulder movement like that. Again, her palms come out and we see the mercy hands where they come up really quick and go down. And again, she's using that hammering as an adapter. That's a pacifying thing where she's trying to get rid of that energy and she actually feels that when she touches those. That's what I think anyway. She minimizes what happened in the argument to make it like, oh, it was nothing if it did happen. It wasn't that, you know, I don't remember. It's not that big a deal if it did. I might have said something. She goes through this whole thing where it's not that, if something did happen, shoot, it wasn't even that big a deal because I'd remembered if it was a big deal. So that she's minimizing that as well. Now this is where these odd facial expressions and these blending of facial expressions begin to stick and they last a lot longer. Now if you have a, if you get a present, you don't like a gift at Christmas or for your birthday or something, you'll smile real big and then the smile will start to fade really slowly because the emotion to keep it on there isn't there. So your smile doesn't last that long. And we're seeing that here a lot of cases too. She goes on and tries to have this as she puts this shell on, she might have a burst of trying to smile but then it slowly starts to fade. Here's the nasal, labial folds right here. When somebody really smiles, you'll see those things come all the way down to the lips and sometimes past the lips. That's what makes these curves in here. I laugh a lot and smile a lot so mine are huge in there all the time. But when somebody really smiles, those things will kick in, they'll go deep and they'll come down to here. Usually just a little bit past, to the lips a little bit past the lips most of the time. And we're not seeing that at all. As we're seeing a little bit when she's showing the combination of anger and trying to be happy at the same time, but it doesn't last long. At this point, she still doesn't have a story she can tell yet, still doesn't have anything. So she's telling this story about Scott and you're right, Greg. She was just telling the story about when she met this guy and when was the earthquake and all these things. She's still thinking, she's still trying to get her story together and so she can form it. She's got all she needs really at this point. So now she's just got to start sticking together in these lumps so she can go back and start protecting it. We won't get in the liar loop, we will in a few minutes but that's what she's getting ready to do. She's de-conflicted or she's in the middle of de-conflicting everything before she goes forward with her story but she's starting to step out just a little bit at a time and tell what she thinks about stuff. This is so good. I'm so excited I can't stand it. I think it's awesome. Chase, what do you got? I think there's a really super important distinction that I want you to take away from this. When she's saying, I could have been working in Hollywood, it sounds like I want you to think about the difference between possibility and assumption. There's a possibility she's saying I could have been instead of I was probably working in Hollywood. Assumption is more common in truthful people. So when someone's deliberately trying to throw dirt into the story and smoke machine their entire story, the possibilities are always there instead of the assumption. I was probably doing this, I was probably doing that instead of it's possible that I could have or I could have been doing that. So she's communicating here in terms of potential instead of her belief or the likelihood of an event. That's a big deal. But in keeping with what we like to do here, I pulled my notes back up here on the iPad. I'm gonna read you the distancing language that she uses just in this clip. And here we go. I mean, could have been. It sounds like could have said, you know, or whatever you know probably would have. I mean, I would have said, you know, I'm faintly remembering sometime may have, may have. I think sometime I faintly recall may have. I'm like, you know, I'm like, you know, I'm like, you know, you know, you could have, could have, could have, could have, I don't know. Pretty interesting. For like a 45 second clip. And everything that what should have been a serious conversation, she brings an artificial smile to seem cooperative, which is a mistake and a misattribution of emotion here. And this is what's called, if you, if you study forensic detection of malingering in people, this is called fabricated affect. And fabricated affect happens either A, when someone's trying to fake a mental illness or B in people who have no ability to understand other emotions. So like a sociopath, this fabricated affect is very common. Was that last? No, but me. All right. Here you go, Mark. Thank you. Mark, have you met Chase yet? Chase, that's Mark. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's the number one biotech expert in the world. Yeah, we're good. Number one in the world. Mark, say hello to Chase. Hey, Chase. Good to see you. Let me tell you what I got. Couple of nonverbal things. I love to see the burping in the stomach stuff. Go back to some of our other videos. Who are we talking about with that? Durst. That's it. Yeah, go back and watch the Durst video if you want to know more about that or put what you know in the chat below because you all know a great deal about that now. So I won't cover that at any more length, but I think we see it even later. So maybe one of the guys will cover it then. We start to see a lot of flushing at this point. So there's more stress. I'm going to talk even more about flushing as we go further through because it becomes so much more pronounced even later on. I agree, Scott. We see this kind of hands to God supplicant gesture as well, which again starts to show to me there's even more stress and pressure on her right now. So it's increasing. I think we start to see less sustained, well, less muddy and more sustained nonverbal in the face because she shifted her strategy to being more verbal now. And it's great to hear that long tirade from Chase there because that language is very, very similar to when a stage psychic or medium tries to get a hit. She's kind of hedging her bets to try and go, well, you know, I'm going to say this. It kind of feels like that. I get a faint idea of this. She's trying to get a few hits to see where they might be going. So she's become very extrovert about this in that she's thinking and talking at the same time, which is why it's turning into a disaster for her because she can't think and talk at the same time, rather like, you know, Chase can't be still and handle his glass at the same at the same time. I think maybe my computer almost fell backwards. Mark, I was trying to pull this book out. It's a co-fantastic manual. And it was under my computer. That's when you know what, Chase, it's interesting because I was getting a feeling of that as as I was talking. It's a green book. And I'm going to say and I'm going to say the name David is important to you or somebody you know. Yeah, it is David and and and and and he's he's all right, by the way, because he's all right. So long. What about that? There's a question of money. And oh, and by the way, he says hello. There's somebody there's somebody coming through and it's very faint, very faint. And they're saying that you once went to to put up some shelves or build something or make something and you didn't quite complete it. OK, didn't quite get finished. And they say it doesn't matter. OK, they just say it doesn't. It doesn't matter. There's always hurt hurt hurt feelings. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And those those feelings those feelings will go away in time. Anyway, that's our next show, by the way, guys. We should do a show on that. So she's become very, very extroverted as she's trying to get a hit with them to kind of see what their plan might be. It's a complete verbal dog's dinner. Now, she is in, I would say, real trouble. Oh, great. Chaff and redirect on the earthquake, by the way. I mean, that's that's just great. Let's talk about an earthquake that happened. So as if they're going to go, that's really interesting. Let's just forget about the idea of anybody being murdered. Let's knuckle it down to an earthquake that happened and just forget and then you can go home. Anyway, complete disaster for her. I'll leave it there. I mean, I could have been working in Hollywood, it sounds like, if if that's where I was working. So I could have said, OK, well, you know, and I wouldn't talk to her and just said, hey, you know what? You know, if he's dating you, he's he's calling me. Why don't you tell him to knock it off or whatever? And no, because I probably would have told him to knock it off. You would have told John. Oh, yeah. I mean, I would have said, hey, you know. And again, but you wanted to tell her to you wanted them both to know. Yeah, I mean, you know, if you get you're getting called. And I'm I'm faintly remembering when Scott moved in with me in 1993, sometime in 93, because I met Scott in in in April of 92. I was teaching dare up in Oregon. Um, and he moved down. In fact, he may have moved down in 92, 92 or 93. There was a big earthquake. No, when was the big earthquake? No, 94. 94. Yeah. So I think Scott might have moved in in 93, sometime in 93. Excuse me. Maybe have my breakfast yet. And so, um, excuse me. And so I faintly recall that John may have called a few times and I'm like, hey, you know, I've got he goes, look, can you I like you? Can you talk or something? Like, you know, no, I can't talk. I've got, you know, I'm living with somebody. Right. You know, and that could have been a few times. It could have been once, could have been twice, could have three times. I don't know. You know, more than likely, you would have gone to her work and had this discussion with her. I mean, that's sounding familiar. I mean, that's now that you guys are bringing this stuff up. I mean, it's not that sounds familiar. But again, I mean, you know, what's I mean, what's this got to do with me dating him? And, you know, her getting killed. I mean, I I don't that, you know, I don't have anything to do with it. And you got something that somebody said, you know, whatever. I mean, OK, Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So just one thing on this, which is we've got the imploring hands, the supplicant gesture, which is, you know, come on, help help me out here. Hands to God, I need I need divine help with this one. It's so confusing, which then transforms into a audible twice. Slap down on her, I think probably her thighs. So this is what I would call contragesture, because because one is is very soft and needing some help. And the other for me is territorial and get out of my space. So when you have contragesture like this, it often means for me that we have something quite big, psychological happening here. This there's there's a push and a pull at the same time. There's something that isn't really squaring in her head right now. And I think it's the anxiety of, come on, give me something. What have you got? I can't get a handle on exactly what you've got here. She's starting, I would say, to become desperate. And that contragesture for me says that element of desperation. Scott, what do you got on that one? All right, yeah, you're right. We're seeing panic. She's in full blown panic mode, man. Her limbic system is like all heated up. And and what you're talking about is frustration as well. So we're seeing that here because she's she can't get enough from these guys. She's got enough to start trying to protect herself. That's why she's going into it. So what's going on here? I don't know what's going on. Are you pointing the finger at me at that situation? So this is this is she's getting in. She's starting to panic. So we're seeing we're seeing that on here. Then again, the hand slapping, that's that's not only is it part of the show. That's part of the adapter to release some of that energy that that's built up. That's why she's flailing her hands everywhere and all that. These rolling hand gestures, those are actually adapters, too, because she's got so much up in her. Now, she's she's known to be a person who's excited and to be. And she even says at one point, which isn't in here. She says, I'm crazy, you know, when they're talking about how she acts at work, that's why that gives her the license to start doing these big things, but she needs to do that. And she's quote unquote crazy because she does things like that. So that's why we see those big rolling hand movements. It's a combination of four, three or four things. That's why it's fascinating. The same with her facial expressions. Here we see surprise again, but we see sadness. So we see a combination of surprise and sadness, then anger and sadness. The difference in the anger and the surprise part in the eyes at this point is or in happiness in the eyes and the anger is the eyes of the lower lids because lower lids will come up some when you're angry and they'll be a little bit wider when you're happy comparatively. And so we're seeing these these odd combinations. And again, they're starting to stick in there almost the whole time at this point. When she starts talking about being in shock, we're actually seeing her expressing the shock here. This is where we're actually seeing her like we were at the beginning. She was showing that, but now she's actually showing that as well. When she says that sounds familiar, that's when we're seeing that that surprise and sadness at the same time. Their overall movements, voice tone, the flailing hands, that lets us know she's in panic mode and she doesn't know where she knows what she's going to do next, I think, because she's she's at the point where now I've got to start fighting. So this is just before the point where she would start fighting to get out of this mess. She's got enough of the story. She's got she's starting to structure it and she's getting ready to start defending herself at this point and to defend her story. That's why she set that up. She's jumped a little bit ahead, I think, at this point for where she should be giving information, but we'll see what happens next in the next chapter. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is a funny one to me to watch because she's not making up a story. She's simply trying to withhold information. That's a losing battle in an interrogation room. If you are innocent and you are going to give me a story, you'll have information about why you couldn't have done it because you were in place X, Y or Z or that kind of she doesn't. She's just trying to avoid. She's trying to matter to our way out of this and she's not doing it well. And so the fighter flight's hitting her and you can't miss it. One of the first things you lose when you get into deep fighter flight is language. Nuance of language goes away because your thinking brain, that frontal cortex is what gives us language. When you go back into the cat brain, you'll start noticing and Chase, you saw it in the last thing. Her go to word is, you know, you know, you know, you know. And it will start peppering her language as you move forward. You can't miss it. She does that request for approval. She raises one shoulder and then the other and raises both hands with her elbows by her side, creating the exoskeleton. And then she starts to fish. And I love the fishing expedition. She's doing what interrogators do. Hey, what do you got on me? She's fishing. She goes, she almost says, Hey, what do you have? And it's what does this mean to me? What does it have to do with me? Well, you know what it has to do with you. That's why you're masking and covering and hiding and not answering any questions. And they know it. She's just this is just a matter of time. And your point is Scott dead on that she's getting to that point now to where her point, her blink rate will start to increase. She's in panic. She's doing whatever it takes. She's moving her hands. She's doing everything to try to release nervous energy. And she's paying really close attention. Go back to the head movement thing, guys, that we're talking about earlier. She's erratic in her head movement. Chase, what do you get when she's saying it's sounding familiar? I think that's one of those key phrases that you should pay attention to anytime you hear this in real life, which the interrogators also any interrogator should. That's that should come in later in the conversation. When you're asking them questions, that should come into your questioning. She's repeating these phrases a lot. So when I'm questioning her later, I might give a detailer to and say, does this sound familiar or is this sounding familiar to you? I'm going to use her language back to make her more comfortable. And then when she says, I'm really nothing to do with it, like you can't make out those words at all. And this is called according to what I teach is a disrupted denial. So the denial doesn't come out all the way. And even in the presence of serious mental confusion about events, suspects will clearly state denials or communicate questions in a comprehensive way when they're being truthful. But we're seeing something different here than we have been teaching you throughout the last several videos, especially if you're a subscriber, you're a panelist, you've seen all this stuff. We always talk about open versus closing body language. So if you are taking notes right now, maybe you're in the shower and you'll have to come back to this later. I'm going to draw a little like a two quadrant thing, just a plus sign. And on the top, we have confident and then we have insecure. And then we have open and then we have closed. So she is living in open and insecure down here. So it's it's still a stress behavior, but it's open and with low levels of confidence. So close doesn't mean lying. Open doesn't mean lying. Neither does confident or insecure. We're looking for specifics. But this is kind of where in that quadrant that most of her behavior is, it's still open, but it's a very reduced confidence here. That's all I got. So do we know of anybody who actually watches this show in the shower? Is that an actual maybe her? Maybe her actual thing. Well, I have YouTube, but I have YouTube premium. So I put it on in the bathroom counter, turn the volume up and take a shower. OK. Yeah, no, I can see how it can be done. There's a key point. She's been living with this for more than a decade. So she's been hedging this at every turn and has lots of ways to hide the facts. But they haven't asked for any facts. Was Chase second? Is that all of us? I think we're done. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Chase, you got to get one of those Bluetooth speakers, man, for the shower. Well, this is the call done again. That's what I do. I put it on. I can stay in there for years and listen to stuff. You got to get a blue. I do. I run it through the office bathroom speaker. Oh, OK. But I turn off my phone. So the YouTube screen is going to say burning it out to get your picture. Yeah, I got that premium thing, too. It works great. I've never seen Marshall in years. Yeah, yeah, more than like you would have gone to her work and had this discussion with her. I mean, that's sounding familiar. I mean, that's now that you guys are bringing this stuff up. I mean, it's not that sounds familiar. But again, I mean, you know, what's I mean, what's this got to do with me dating him and, you know, her getting killed? I mean, I don't that, you know, I don't have anything to do with it. And you got something that somebody said, you know, whatever. I mean, right, here we go. During that time that you were seeing John, you know, was he acting kind of squirrely or kind of sneaking around when he'd hook up with you or anything like that? To make you think, hey, you probably was. I mean, I mean, because when the impression I get is you've known him a long time. Well, let's see. From what? I met him in 78. No, I met him in school. I started UCLA in 78. So you know him well. During that period of time. Yeah, I mean, was he acting squirrelly? You know, I don't even remember where he was living then. You know, I. OK, Chase, what do you got? So we see Chen boss movement and eyebrow flash to the extremes here combined. So weird. And it's that duality that you guys have been talking about the whole time. There's gross turtling movement, like large, gross movement. She instantly recalls the year that she met him. And some people might say, well, this is, you know, she has no trouble recalling the past, but it's also the year she started college. So I would discount that as some some big data point. But she went from how he was acting to where he was living for no reason. And this is a mitigation strategy that that psychologists refer to as terror management theory. This is when we have an awareness of a potential catastrophic injury that causes some unusual behavior for us as humans and some heightens our anxiety a whole lot. But within this, very quickly, we have a repetition of question, which is a four on the behavioral table of elements, a non-answer statement, which is a four, a confirmation glance, twice to both interrogators after the statement, not before, but after she made a statement, which is an eight and then ambiguity, which is another four. So she gets a score of 20 when 11 is a high chance of deception. So she's well into the ballpark there. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I see intense focus from her, which I haven't seen yet. So it's clearly heating up now to the point where she really needs to narrow this down and pay attention to what's going on. We see. But then she moves from concern or certainly feigned concern to then gesture facial gestures of kind of indifference to face blocking as well. Like you say, Chase, extreme turtling. In fact, this whole episode should maybe just be headlined with extreme turtling, because I don't think we see I've ever seen turtling as extreme in this. This is like the extreme sport of turtling going on here. And now we're going to get some extreme flushing. So the way to baseline this is when she says I started UCLA in 78. Let's accept that that's going to be accurate. And I want you to look at her skin tone and I want you to see how how, you know, kind of mildly pink it is quite pallid. And I want you to see her skin tone on around you knew him well when that question is asked and you're going to see a massive difference between that skin tone and when she's answering those questions. And in fact, if you want to see a bigger difference, you take that little clip of video and you take it online and you put it into an app which is going to compress the video for you, because that will then take anything that's a bit kind of white and make it whiter and a bit kind of red and make it even redder and you will see a massive shift from pink to red on that. And this can be a good way to work out. Not if somebody's lying. There's all kinds of reasons why people flush, including just having a cup of coffee and all kinds of of neurotransmitters in the endocrine system that can be going round as well for all kinds of other reasons. But in this particular situation, it is so extreme that it's worth taking a look at. We're getting a baseline of skin tone for when she's telling the truth. And now a baseline of skin tone for when she could well be just making stuff up or certainly obscuring the questioners away from some some important answers. That's what I got for you on that, Greg. What do you got on this one? Yeah, I'll keep this pretty short. She has a nervous smile. We talk about the face should all convey the same message. You see her face smiling like she's trying to make contact with these guys. But her eyes are kind of terrified if you look at that movement starts off. Her eyes are kind of amused and happy, but then it moves to the other. Was he acting squirrely? I think she's going to take that down the rabbit hole. She's like, well, defined squirrely. But I think her brain is doing the worm on the griddle thing. She's dancing around and she and she doesn't get that far. And she goes, I don't even know where he lived. She forgets to chaff. She just does the radar act on her own and moves it on off. So I think we're starting to see her processor overheating and we'll see a lot more of this coming. Scott, what do you got? Right. She knows the guy was was sneaking around. She knows that the other person didn't know. And I think we're seeing in those the difference in facial tone there, Mark, as we can watch that difference at this point, it's noted as we go along. It gets she flushes more and more. At one point, it's just plain flushing like you're talking about. But I think at this point, she's growing angry and this type of personality. That's what happens to them. They get mad, they get all red faced. And if you look at her eyes when someone's angry and they do the squint and I'm mad at you, that's one thing. When they look at that. But when you see those eyes, when you see the whites of their eyes, when they're being angry, when they're acting angry, they're not acting. They're angry. She's angry at this point. And we're seeing like Chase was saying earlier, when they ask you that question, her chin goes down and totally covers her neck. She's holding back information. She's a lot of stuff she wants to say and she wants to go off, but she can't because this is one of those times she can't because she's in she's in trouble and she's in an interrogation room and she's got to try to be cool and she's not pulling it off. But that's what she's trying to do. So I think that's what a lot of a lot of the red faces about is from being angry. Then we see your eyes glazed over because she's dropping back into that personality. She's used her whole life when she gets in this spot and she's been in a thousand times where she's trying to defend herself for something she's done from her anger. And that's, and so she's used to being here. And so her eyes glazed over and she just drops back into that and the animal part of her starts taking over and she just starts yapping at that point. Well, all these things she's telling these guys at that point. The lip compression that again, that lets us know she's holding back information that she wants that she has that she's not going to give and she's she's she's panicking. And we're seeing her get mad and we're seeing all these expressions of all these these feelings that we're talking to these emotions we're talking about coming out on her face in blended expressions like Greg was saying we're seeing we're seeing and Marcus and we all said it. We're seeing we're seeing anger, happiness and frustration all blended together be happiness up here and anger down here, then anger up here or surprise appear and anger down here. All these different things that tells you a lot about a personality like that. That's why she's getting so mad. That's how she ended up killing that girl because she was mad and she may not have gone over there to kill her, but I'll bet that's what ended up, especially if she ended up biting her because they had that DNA there that they talked about later on. So there was a big fight going on there too. And I bet she went back out to the car and got that thing and tagged her came back in the house and tagged her. I don't know what the details of it are, but I'll bet you that's what I'll bet you that's what happened. I'll stop right there. Is that all of us? Yeah. You know, most of the injuries are were post mortem. Oh, most of the most of the damage to the body was done post mortem. All right. So she was mad. That would have immediately for any detective I would imagine would say that this is probably not a robber. No, the parents of the woman said, this is not a robber. This is that woman who is a police officer very clearly. Yep. Well, yeah, but it was staged. There were gloves used, all kinds of things. So yeah, give us some of that. What do you got, man? I don't know what the backstory is. Yeah. So here's what I know. I read today because this has been requested so many times. Apparently now we're finding out they thought they argued you'll see more coming in a few minutes. She went over to the house and I don't know all the details except for them when they went upstairs for the where they thought there was a burglary they found it stacked like a VCR and some things way back in those days. And there was a bloody thumbprint on it with a glove. But it was after the fact, like Chase said, all the things that were staged after the fact were after this woman was already dead, this fake robbery was staged. And apparently the person who shot her put a blanket over the 38 and shot it through the blanket to keep it quiet. So somebody who knew what was going on, somebody knew the deal. And these guys only found out much later. This is a second investigation. And these two these two cops were picked because they did not have a relationship with her in any way so that she wouldn't know what they were doing. And then they went to another lock up and said they made up an excuse and said, we don't want to make starting kind of rumors with your department. How about you come over here and she had to surrender a weapon to walk in perfect, beautiful. So, yeah, was there head trauma? Well, did she get her head back? Oh, yeah, she bashed her pretty good, I think, to beat her and then shot her. It was a lot of violence. It was all right. So she was she was out when she was tagged or they know. Well, maybe, maybe she might have beaten her up after she was dead. Who knows? You know, crazy, don't know limits, you know. During that time that you were seeing John, you know, was he acting kind of squirrely or kind of sneaking around when he'd hook up with you or anything like that? To make you think, hey, you know, he probably was. I mean, I mean, because from the impression I guess you've known him a long time. Well, let's see. From what? I met him in 78. No, I met him in school. I started UCLA in 78. So you know him well. During that period of time. Yeah, I mean, was he acting squirrelly? You know, I don't even remember where he was living then. You know, I. But you didn't have any issues with her, right? No, I mean, you know, obviously if he was dating me and dating her, I probably said, hey, pick or something, you know, back then. I can't say that we ever screamed or, you know, it's. I mean, he was a pretty mellow guy, you know. I think I was pretty mellow. I don't I don't think we had some big huge blow up to say, you know, why we stopped dating or, you know. And I even think that when I was dating him, I was probably, like I said, I was probably going out with other guys and he was probably going out with other girls. But, you know, I don't know. I mean, would you remember if she snapped on you and just like, hey, man, it's my man. You know, you get it. Leave him alone, you know, blah, blah, blah, that kind of stuff. You know. And would you remember an incident like that? I mean, because that would be like what? Well, you know, and maybe that happened. I mean, gosh, you know, it's been so long ago. You know, I just I mean, that's not ringing a bell. Because of times I've seen you around in our office. I'm crazy. Yes, you are. That's awesome. All right, Greg, what do you got? So let's just follow this path for just a minute. I don't know who she is. Maybe I met her. Oh, I never went to her house. Maybe I did. Oh, he was dating both of us. Hold on. How much more do you need to do to raise your hands and say, could I have those cuffs now? I mean, what what storyline are you trying to hold? This is not any person would say, I'm going to shut up and get a lawyer right here, unless you're arrogant enough to think that you can outsmart these guys sitting across the table from you. And then we'll find out because it's coming. She goes on and he says, if he was dating both of us, then she does a redirect where she starts talking about he was mellow. What's I got to do with this whole thing? And then she just jumps tracks. She didn't bother chaffing. She just jumps tracks and starts to answer a new question. What's she even talking about? Then you get back to the questioning and then she's got that little smirk. And I think it's just who she is. It's something she's done her whole life. And then she does a little trading guilt by saying, I'm crazy and then minimizing the impact. That's if I were here, I would just be like. Why don't you finish the interrogation? We'll just sit here and listen to your question yourself, because this is going nowhere but down. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so more extreme turtling here to the level. Now that she should be sponsored by some kind of caffeine drink. You know, exactly. It's like, you can't. I don't think I can even turtle the level that she's managing to turtle. My like my bone structure won't won't do it. Let's see. Let's see. Yeah, exactly. Her face used extreme turtling. So so she doesn't know who to hold eye contact with. You know, the heads just going from side to side. I don't know, you know, whether she's whether she's trying to work out now, like who's on my side, who isn't? Or just she now feels nobody's on her side, but she doesn't know where to hold eye contact. Her breathing rate is now way higher than it has been in the past. She is what I would call mugging and gurning her way through this mugging, being an acting star whereby you just pull faces to get away with it and gurning, being a very particular English face pulling sport. I think mainly from the West country of of England, maybe maybe Cornwall. I'm not quite sure. Maybe for the for the English panellists, British panellists put down below some some references to gurning there, or maybe producer a meme for for us so we can put that up on social put stick it up on social media so people know what we're talking about there when we talk about gurning. But is there some extreme face pulling here? And she even I don't think I've seen this before. She even does a pass out eye roll, which is where her eyes roll back to the side and she kind of almost does the action of fainting. It's it's just so extreme and so extraordinary. I don't think I've seen that anywhere else, apart from in some film, you know, some comedies or some films or some dramas of some sort. It's so extreme. Love it. Can't can't get enough of it. Scott, what have you got? All right. She's minimizing huge here because he's talking about how it might have happened, all that. And if it did, it wasn't that big a deal. The goofy face stuff stays almost a constant in this. You're right, Mark, that's it's out of hand. It's ridiculous at this point. And she's got it's just she's putting on a show at this point. She's got she's trying. She's got her anger quelled a little bit, but she's still trying to. She knows or she's pretty sure they've got something and she's wanting to know what it is because they're so confident. And that's what's getting her because they're coming on like, yeah, we got something, we got something. She's like and trying to explain her way out of all these things. We talked about her structure before she's going back to each one and pulling stuff from and trying to defend all those because they really haven't hit her with anything yet. So they did such a great job on this, such a great job on this. When she says maybe that happened, maybe that happened. Again, leaving the door open so she can go back and try to protect some of that stuff and add something to it. Add qualifiers to help help save her story on that. But she doesn't know what they have. And she and it's really frustrating for I think that's one of the reasons you're seeing that that Iro mark as in it going along with what's actually happening. There's just so much emotionally she's going through here because that's that personality type. All those emotions are running through her back and forth and up and down all around. It's it's beautiful. It's it's it's it's horrible, really. But I mean, watching it like this and seeing her getting trouble for it for what she's done, I think that's the good part. But man, from a psychological standpoint, it's just beautiful. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I love it. That interrogator really brings it out of her. Oh, yeah. I think, you know, in Greg's famous terms, this is called bringing the chimpanzee to the shindig. For sure. Another old Hartley chestnut. So ambiguity is now the new defense. And you hear her time cleansing defense strategy here. It's been so long ago and is this upward tone in her voice that's different than up talk, completely different than up talk. Which is which is just helping to add to this uncertainty. There's tight lips, the chin boss movement is ridiculous. But when he says it snapped at you, there's forced fabricated recall. And one of the surefire ways it tells there's forced recall or some pretend recall is head and eyes move together to recall both of it. Both of the things. It's usually just an eye movement. But most of her glances towards the non-asking interrogator, the non-question asking person are towards the end of her statements to make sure that she's being believed. So a confirmation glance when we're looking at someone else in the conversation when there's two interrogators, it's more likely to be deceptive when you make contact with the non-asking person after the statement, which we're definitely seeing here. I'll just leave it at that. I think I was the last one. Yeah, there's not a hell of a lot of eye accessing in here because she's not saying anything. Hmm. Yeah, she's not calling anything. She's just see those guys talking to her. I really do want to see how they're sitting and what they're doing. Because I want to know if they got her in the corner. The guy's closest to us. That's the one I want to see. I know. I know what the other one is. I know exactly what that cat looks like. But this this guy closest to us. I really want to see what he looks like. Because he's I don't know if he's just going for a while. I do hope at this point, like one of them is just getting out his pack lunch. The other's like peeling a banana, like smoking a cigarette. One of them is ratcheting his cuffs playing. Right. Right. The other's got out his knitting. Yeah, carry on. I bet I bet they're trying to look as relaxed as possible. Just kind of hanging out, chewing gum. Oh, yeah. That's what I'm saying. But the one closest to us, that's that's the guy I want to see. But she didn't have any issues with her, right? No, I mean, you know, obviously, if he was dating me and dating her, I probably said, hey, pick or something, you know, back then. I can't say that we ever screamed or, you know, it's I mean, he was a pretty mellow guy, you know, I think I was pretty mellow. I don't I don't think we had some big huge blow up to say, you know, why we stopped dating or, you know, and I even think that when I was dating him, I was probably, like I said, I was probably going out with other guys and he was probably going out with other girls. But, you know, I don't know. I mean, would you remember if she snapped on you and just like, hey, man, it's my man, you know, you get it, leave him alone, you know, blah, blah, blah, that kind of stuff, you know. And would you remember an incident like that? I mean, because that would be like what? Well, you know, and maybe that happened. I mean, gosh, you know, it's been so long ago. I, you know, I just, I mean, that's not ringing a bell. Because the times I've seen you around at our office. I'm crazy. Well, one of the concerns I had was looking at some of the notes is some of Sherry's friends said that you and her were having a problem because of the John situation. Well, number one, I don't know who her friends are. Because, again, I don't, I don't recall if he did tell me where he met her. I don't know even who these friends are, a problem. I guess if I spoke to her, I mean, I'll go on as far as a limb. And I don't even want to say I spoke to her five times because that's probably not even true. I can't even remember. Again, did I meet him at her plate when he lived on Roscoe for, I think, quite a while, but I couldn't tell you how long he lived on Roscoe. And the only reason I remember the place now is because it's like a huge dope, dope place now where they, you know, it may have been back then, but, you know, maybe we didn't know back then. I could have met her there. I could have, you know. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so this is gold medal winner, extreme turtling and extreme lip retraction at the same time. I don't care who you are. I don't think you've ever seen turtling and lip retraction at this level. If you have, you need to show me the evidence, because I guarantee you've never seen it this big. This is this is Olympic level. This is gold medalist. This is as good, as big as it can ever get. So so I just want to lay that that down there as a competition. If you have bigger turtling, bigger lip retraction, you've got to send us that information because it does not exist. This is as big as it gets. The other lovely piece of this, I think, is this I think setup of a tactic here of saying the area that they lived in was was well dodgy, you know, drugs. We certainly know that now. Hey, maybe the police didn't know it at the time. Hey, maybe the police have still missed something about what's been maybe the police have just maybe we're a little bit inept around this. So I think there's a there's a clever little maneuver. It doesn't last for too long of suggesting, look, they lived in a bad area. That's why she got killed and the police are pretty inept. They probably missed something, you know, go out and search again, start the investigation, stop looking here, nothing to look at over here. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, I agree with you. She's walking through this whole thing. We talk about her turtling. Look at that outlet plate or switch plate behind her now and go back and compare it to number one. Her head is about that far lower than it was in the beginning. I love the fact that it's a static camera and she's in the corner and she just gets smaller and smaller and smaller. Scott, you say people look like Muppet. She's going to look like a Muppet here shortly. Her little body is going to be flailing around over there. But she does a nervous laugh. She turtles. She drops her head down. Her chin protects her throat. Then she does all this emphatic hand movement and she starts to chaff and redirect that she's been masterful at. You know, it's starting to creep into her language even more. So every other word, as you know, she challenges the validity of the witness. I don't know who you're talking about. Number one. And then she challenges the neighborhood. It was probably a bad neighborhood back then to your point, Mark. What she's doing is casting doubt on the entire thing. Did it ever happen? I don't know. I didn't know these people. And I think this is just her. And then she does that Trump movement. If you remember, Trump, when he was running for the nomination before he was running for president, when people would say something to him, he'd go and make a goofy face is kind of a deflection move. She's doing exactly that. I think all that face has been what she's done her entire life and she's just gotten away with it. Then she goes to I don't recall how many times I met her for. I'll go on a limb and say five. Look at her respiration or blank rate. She's a squirrel on the road right now. She's running back and forth and trying to figure out what's next. Scott, what do you got? All right. I think she's retreating further into her what I'm going to call her protection personality when I talked about earlier where she's done this a thousand times and she's getting further back in there. That's why I see her eyes are glazed over a little bit. Her face is getting a little bit more red. And she's she's in the only protection mode. She knows as these emotions are just bouncing around inside her. She's trying to get a hold on her. We're seeing the lip compression again. That denote she's holding back information and it could be stressed. But in this case, I think she's holding back information. The eye scratch is an adapter. You can say two or three things about that. But I think that's what we're looking we're looking at there. I don't think she's trying to look like she doesn't understand. And there's no loping. She's usually loping when you just start talking about something. This is the complete opposite of that. She's just these really short, choppy two or three words at a time. And it just goes on and on and on. When they start talking about the problem, her chin completely covers her neck, what Mark's talking about, about the turtling. It's just incredible. You'd think she'd you'd think she'd know better. Somebody at some point who said, here's why we think this person is this. We'll watch what happens with the chin. And even from a subtle aspect of that, she would go, OK, I don't do that. She's not. I don't know. She may be smart. I don't know. But man, this she should know better than that at this point. She's getting further and further down. Like Greg was saying, if you watch where she is, she's getting shorter and shorter, make yourself smaller, trying to hide. And now when you adjust in your chair, somebody says something, then you adjust and start talking. If you're asking a question about whether you're being deceptive or not, or if something's happened, asking you about it. That shows you something bothers them there. So we're seeing that as well. It's not the only time we see it. We see it a couple of times. But this this is this is a special one, I think, because of the situation she's in. So anytime somebody asks you something or asks them on something, you see them kind of scoot around their chair or just a little bit. That's when you know, something's up, because there it does two or three things that helps you. It gives you a little bit of time to think as you're scooting. You instantly gives you two or three seconds or two seconds, probably. And that's all you need to get in there and start thinking, because your brain works really quickly, a lot quicker than your mouth works. Now, I'm under the impression that your brain works as fast as your mouth does. That's why I talk so fast. But in this case, she's that's why she's adjusting to get a little bit more time to think. And I said, when you're having problems, she laughs. And she's trying to diminish that situation when he talks about the problem anyway. So she's trying to make that look small and not that big a deal at all. Still trying to defend that as she goes back to these chunks of the story that she's trying to tell and the information they've given her, as she's put in these boxes, she's trying to remember what they are and then go back and protect those as she goes along. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, you guys got just about everything I had here. But she's unable to answer it first, which I think is a very good data point here. So when you watch this again, you're going to see her attempt to illustrate her response as she's still trying to come up with the words there. And that's a big deal. The second part of this is this willingness to become more expressive on the face feels helpful to her. But when a real emotion comes up, that's actually powerful, it takes over the face and it tends to take over the face because she's already allowing the face to be expressive. So the real emotions can come out a little more clearly. And that's why we're seeing a duality of facial expression on. Maybe I'll come up with a cool name for that. I don't know. And Greg, one of the things that you were talking about with Trump, with this kind of this backwards face, this is also if you go on YouTube and type in people getting the crap scared out of them compilation, that's the face you see. That's that kind of head back from something that's scaring somebody like somebody pops out of a trash can or something. That's what you're going to see. But I think we have the face expressions of Trump and we have the eyes of Hillary Clinton that kind of like this kind of look while she's listening to someone. The whites of the eyes are come out to have the eyes of Clinton and the face of Trump, which is a fantastic combo. But keep in mind that she's expending a massive amount of nervous energy and keep in mind that she is a cop. So the presence of two probably junior people are not necessarily intimidating. It's the situation and the this looming elephant in the room that not even she has yet had the courage to bring up for fear of something coming out before she was able to determine what the story was, what the angle was and how much these people knew. I'm going to leave it at that. You guys got a whole lot. That's all I got. Well, one of the concerns I had is looking at some of the notes is some of Sherry's friends said that you and her were having a problem because of the John situation. Well, number one, I don't know who her friends are, because again, I don't I don't recall if he did tell me where he met her. I don't know even who these friends are, a problem. Like I said, if I spoke to her, I mean, I'll go on as far as a limb. And I don't even want to say I spoke to her five times because that's probably not even true. I can't even remember. Again, did I meet him at her plate when he lived on Roscoe for, I think, quite a while, but I couldn't tell you how long he lived on Roscoe. And the only reason I remember the place now is because it's like a huge dope, dope place now where they, you know, it may have been back then, but, you know, maybe we didn't know back then. I could have met her there. I could have, you know, right. Would you say there wasn't a lot of drama in this relationship? No, I don't think there was drama. Yeah, I mean, that's why I'm asking as far as what the friends are saying in regards to this, you know, the problems that they're saying you were having with with Sherry. I mean, it seems like the relationship is just going on even plain. That just I I don't have a recollection of that at all. No, no. And because from what you're telling me is when you guys met at the hospital, I mean, you guys talk, but it wasn't from what you recall, a confrontational from either side. I mean, I'm trying to, you know, turn my memory back, you know, and I'm trying. I can't even can't even picture the, you know, picture the conversation. I mean, I can't even picture the conversation. Well, let me ask you, I mean, at the hospital, it never got to the point where people are going, hey, you know, go to everybody, go to your own corner type of thing. I don't think so. Nothing like that. I don't think so. I mean, I really don't. I mean, if you, you know, if you say people said that, that's not ringing a bell to me at all. I mean, it's not. I mean, that that's not ringing a bell. Was there was there a time when you and Sherry were talking and John had to maybe go like, hey, you guys relax, you know, or anything like that? I think so. That's great. All right, Greg, what do you got? Well, the first thing to remind you of is this is an investigator. We have to lie with a straight face. And there's some of that coming out here. You can see it when she does the shock face. She's not shocked that they're bringing up this question, but she's done this enough times in an interrogation room that she clearly can do the shock face. When she's taking in information about the threat, watch her ears, her eyes narrow when they're talking about the situation and her blink rate go up. Then she does the dismissal face again just before that shock comes up. Then she says distance, distance, distance. If you say people said this is not ringing a bell, all in response to, do you remember this? Did it go this way? And then they bring up, was it an altercation where people are trying to separate the two of you? Now, if you're a police officer, she was a young police officer at this point. She was a uniformed officer, not an investigator. And you get in that kind of trouble, you're gonna have a problem as a result of it. So you don't remember I almost got in trouble there. No matter how hot headed you are, because you can lose your badge, you can get in all kinds of trouble. Let me think about where that goes. And then as she gets to the end, she's got some real concern in her face. She turtles, but she doesn't just turtle her chin drops. That's the thing you're talking about, Chase, where they do that when they're recoiling from fear because they're protecting their throat. You'll talk about muscles and all that, but the piece that they do. And then Scott, I'll use your words. She does fading facts at the end. She does fading facts or words just drift off to nothing. Chase, what do you got? Police who are suspects use lack of recall as a very common defense. So this is a very common thing when an interrogator or an investigator becomes a suspect. So I don't have any recollection of that at all. That's a common trope. And I can tell you that's one of the hardest things for an interrogator to overcome. Problems with memory is very hard for people like us to deal with. There's more of this over the top as Mark would say, Olympic level, facial expression, exaggeration and body movement. But I think it's interesting that there's a pattern now of explaining precisely why she's able to recall certain things with clarity. Anything with clarity that she can remember, she has to give you an exact reason why she remembers that. So if we're going on the behavior table of elements, we have three ambiguity statements, five non-answer statements, and we'll throw in a score of four for Scott's fading facts with a total score of 33. And Scott, I'll pass it to you. To who me? Yeah. Okay, sorry. You're the only one here called Scott. Oh, I didn't hear the Scott. Oh, okay. That's what it was. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, Rick and Gervais is, for me, the best person to act like they're lying. He does this classic thing where he'll find something, he'll start pushing his, doing his head on and he'll do this. He's really slowly, his mouth goes, we've seen her do that, children do that. And he does it because he's copying a child. He's seen that a thousand times. So we've seen her do that. We're seeing this act go on and on and on. And her voice at the very beginning, really, really high that, oh no. I don't think it was a lot of drama. Come on in. That shows the stress in that is clamping her throat a little bit and making her voice go higher. What is so much in here? Let's see. She's fighting all the accusations at this point and her adding information is slowing down a little bit. She's pretty much still in defense mode here. So she's not putting anything in there. She's just sort of warding the other things off because that's all she can really do and she still doesn't know what they have yet. She still doesn't know what that ACE card is yet when it comes to her. And she's trying to, she's still trying to gather information for the structure of her story because she's got everything put in there and still she goes back to protect these. She's trying to think now, and this is a horrible way of doing it because you're throwing all your stuff on the ground and trying to arrange it and then saying, okay, start shooting and she tries to run to each one like a tennis player when they hit the ball to try to protect each one of those spots. That's not working for her. Then at the end, of course, fading facts as she gets quieter because she's afraid at this point. She doesn't know what they've got. She knows they have something. I think at this point, she knows it's pretty much over. It's good. We're gonna get out of this a little bit but then when it comes back to it again because she gets relaxed and they give her a little break for a second and then they come right back to it and then she gets worked up again. But at this point, I think she knows she's had it and she's pretty much done. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, just one thing on this, which I really love which is she's doing what I would call an illustrator of a metaphor. So I'm kind of a metaphorical illustrator. By illustrator, I mean, she's literally drawing a picture for us but she's drawing a picture of an idea of how the brain works. And the picture she's trying to create for us is it's a cog machine. It's kind of a clockwork kind of thing. And therefore, and it's not quite working. You know, my brain isn't quite working. It's a difficult Victorian clockwork machine and so hard to manage. And the reason she wants to do that is because she wants the interrogators to go, oh, you know, that's right. The brain is really hard to manage, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, we know we totally get the situation you're in. All right, lads, call it off. No, she's got clockwork brain. That's why that's the problem. So yeah, there must be somebody else did it. Somewhere else, everybody. Yeah, she's got clockwork brain. That's what they're hoping. And that's why she does it twice because she's getting nothing back. Clearly they don't give her any eyebrow raises of, oh, yeah, clockwork brain. Yeah, yeah, there's none of that goes on at all. And that's why she has to do it twice. Anyway, lovely, lovely to see that little idea playing out there, illustrative kind of metaphor gesture going on there. She had Trump's skin. She would be clockwork orange. She would be clockwork orange. Yes. But that was a good one. Would you say there wasn't a lot of drama in this relationship? Oh, no, I don't think there was drama. Yeah, I mean. That's why I'm asking, as far as what the friends are saying in regards to the problems that they're saying you were having with Sherry. I mean, it seems like the relationship is just going on even plain. That just, I don't have a recollection of that at all. No. Because from what you're telling me is when you guys met at the hospital, I mean, you guys talked, but it wasn't, from what you recall, confrontational from either side? I mean, I'm trying to turn my memory back. And I'm trying, I can't even picture the conversation. I mean, I can't even picture the conversation. Well, let me ask you. I mean, at the hospital, it never gaps a point where people are going, hey, hey, you know, go to everybody, go to your own corner type of thing. I don't think so. Nothing like that? I don't think so. I mean, I really don't. I mean, if you say people said that, that's not ringing a bell to me at all. I mean, it's not. I mean, that's not ringing a bell to me at all. Was there a time when you and Sherry were talking and John had to maybe go like, hey, you guys relax, you know, or anything like that? I think so. All right. Let me ask, when you were seeing John, would you, I think if he would pick you up in his car, you'd go in your car, things of that nature, and you guys would go out? Yeah, I mean. Do you remember what he drove? Well, I know at one time he drove either a 240 or 260Z. Any other cars that stand out in your mind? I don't know how long you drove that 240 or 260Z for. And the only reason I say that is, because I think I may have a picture of it with him in it. What kind of car did you have back then? Let's see. What year? Or are you like one of those young cops that like, oh, I got a paycheck and bought a new car? No, no, no. I've only had like a few cars in my whole life. So what'd you have when you came on the job? Okay, well, my first car was a 68 Chevelle. Why didn't all that, though, is what I'm thinking. The only thing I think she's doing here is they're giving her the chance to blow off a little steam because there's nothing pertinent. She's like, why are you asking this? Look at her face. Why asking that? She knows where they're headed, but she can't figure out this is a transition move, I don't think. And you guys may see something else, but to me, this looks, I'll just go ahead and do my piece then. She goes to Romancer. She locks eyes from the liar's loop from the true crime workshop we did. Her blink rate goes up and then they make a supposition and she's kind of shocked by it. She does a goofy face and then she starts all that lip movement stuff. And when people are thinking, we move our mouth, some of us more demonstratively than others. I think all they're doing is transitioning into, did you ever lose a car? Did you ever lose a firearm? But she can't see it. And I think she's got confusion and she's doing whatever that craziness is. That's all I see. This first time we've seen this lip thing, I think if I'm a police interrogator and I'm being interrogated, I'm trying to figure out what's coming next. I think she's starting to fry a circuit right here, figuring out what the hell are they talking about? What's next? And then she goes back to, she was going to hit that anchor. Well, I remember his car, I got a picture of him in the car. She tries the anchor again, anchor and redirect. They don't let her have it. Now she's got to answer the question. She just jumps tracks and answers whatever she wants to. That's what I see. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I mean, it's hard for me to watch anything because there's a moment in there which is one of the most bizarre facial expressions movements I've ever seen in my life on this show, outside of Jim Carrey doing the Grinch that stole Christmas. So she's doing that thing. That is Jim Carrey doing the Grinch who stole Christmas. It's the same thing. If you were, I would love to put that in the show, but we get held in copyright prison for too long on that. So just go and search that out and make up a meme and stick it out there for us. It is rather like, it's like Jim Carrey doing, Andy Kaufman doing Tony Clifton as well. It's the same, it's the same. She's doing, what she's doing is she's doing, she's trying to entertain, I think at this point, the interrogators by going, I know what I'll do. I'll do my impersonation of Jim Carrey doing, doing Andy Kaufman doing Tony Clifton. That's what she does. I don't know what else is going on in this clip because I couldn't pay attention to it. I could only focus on that. Chase, is there anything else going on in this clip? That's all. Hmm. I think that's good. Right at the mention of cars, there's instant confusion. But just at the mention, before the question came out, there was confusion. And this, I think is a potential red flag in that she was nervous in where it could potentially go. And do you remember what he drove? She's not sure what to do. So there, we see this posture retreat, lip compression, lip retraction, shinboss. We see a fear of facial expression. And I think there's some duping delight in here when she's communicating uncertainty. And it's a duping delight with fear. So maybe it's not Dupers delight. Maybe she's trying to smile, she has fear going on. But it is an incredible thing to witness both at the same time. So this is just a desire to please the interrogators to appear helpful, confused, cooperative. And this might be a red flag, except that she's one of them. And she should not be really doing these things. She should not really be feeling these emotions, especially if she's innocent. She's unable to remain professional or serious, which is a humongous red flag here. She's too concerned with building rapport and appearing to be happy and helpful and just kind of going on this narrative of confusion and clockbrain. Greg? Oh, sorry. The other Greg, the other Greg. All right, we're seeing a combination again of expressions here. We're seeing this blending of expressions. She comes all that surprise and then a lip compression, but then at the same time we're seeing, I think that mouth move, you guys, I think it's an adapter. I know I was saying adapters, but it's like facial dinting. You know, when somebody does this, but she's gonna do it in a few minutes and she's pushing on it. I think that's part of what it is. And she's trying to get back in with them like you were saying, Chase. She's trying to get back in, hey, it's us. We'll see you do that in a couple of minutes as well. There's so much going on right here. And I think you're right, Greg. I think they're transitioning. I couldn't forget, I don't know the story. So I don't know if the car played an important part but obviously you're right. It's that transition from one thing to the other, getting ready to get into the, find out about the stolen gun. Surprise is the most dominant expression here that we're seeing because it goes back to what you were saying, Greg. She can't forget what's going on. She's surprised, what is this? What's happening? Why this question or why going down this path? And the dominant lip, it seems to be the bottom lip on this. That is really, you're right, Mark. That is really odd. And he did that in Fire Marshal Bill as well. He would do that a lot. And that's just, the whole thing is odd. Now the whole thing is just weird. And the facial fleshing starts coming back at this point. She's not mad here, but I think she's frustrated because she can't, she's almost embarrassed that she doesn't know what's going on because you're right, Greg. She, they're going 90 miles an hour down this one road and all of a sudden no stopping just like that tic-tac that the UFO guys are about to boom and goes that way really, really quick. And she's not ready for it. She can't figure it out. Then she scoots back in her chair a little bit. So that again confirms that she's not sure. She's not okay with what's happening. She's distancing yourself from him because she doesn't get it. She doesn't see what's happening. I didn't get that transition as well because I didn't know, again, didn't know the backstory. But when he says, do you remember what you drove? And that's what, at the beginning of the year, that's when that starts that combination of expressions again, because she's so deep in that protective personality. And then comes this thing out of left field she's not ready for. I think it just, she's discombobulated at this point. So that's what I got. Let me ask, when you were seeing John, would you, I think if he would pick you up in his car, you'd go in your car, things of that nature. When you guys would go out? Do you remember what he drove? Well, I know at one time he drove either a 240 or 260Z. Any other cars that stand out in your mind? I don't know how long you drove that 240 or 260Z for. And the only reason I say that is because I think I may have a picture of it with him in it. What kind of car did you have back then? Let's see, what year? Or are you like one of those young cops that like, oh, I got a paycheck and bought a new car? Oh no, no, no. I've only had like a few cars in my whole life. So what'd you have when he came on the job? Okay, well, my first car was a 68 Chevelle. All right, we good? Yeah. Do you ever have any problems with your cars? Like what? Anything in general, car wrecks, anything stolen? Yeah, no, my cars never been stolen. Oh, no, crashed, hit and run. I mean, my Tercels was hit and run. Like, and I got pictures of the hit and runs. I don't think any of my cars have ever been stolen. No, my cars haven't been stolen. Broken into. None of that, huh? Oh yeah, my cars have been broken into. You know, but no cars have ever been stolen. Well, when, tell me about this, the car getting broken into. Well, my car has been broken into several times. Oh, really? Do you ever lose anything? Yeah. Now that you mention it, let's see. I had a gun that was stolen. I had other stuff that was stolen. Not your duty gun, was it? No. That's good. Has it ever recovered? I don't know, no, I don't think so. Not that I know of. Never been notified? No, cars have been broken into, yeah, several times. Where did that happen when your gun was taken? I'm sure you guys must know. Cause my car was broken into in Ventura, I think in Santa Monica. I have relatives that live in Santa Monica and Venice. All right, Chase, what do you got? She's keeping on with this plan of exaggerating all these facial expressions to mask her emotion, to seem contemplative and cooperative. But she latches on to the denials here of stolen. And the interrogator offers a simple, kind of a platter of words to choose from and sees which one she takes hold of. And she really grabs on to the stolen one. So this is another technique that people like us do. We'll kind of shoot out a shotgun of all these different concepts and see which one, like you have a physiological change or you have a verbal response to some subject. And this mouth chewing behavior seems to increase with her nervousness here. And I think the most guilty behavior of all, we're starting to see it coming into fruition right now. And this is failing to ever even ask what the hell this is all about and what they know. And she didn't need to ask, she knew. And her knowing that and not asking is the guilty behavior, not asking at all, why the heck am I here? Why are you asking me these questions? She knew exactly what was going on. She's trying to play it close to her chest in a very bad way and giving away all of her hand if we're gonna keep going with that metaphor. But she's overly cooperative and confused. There's no doubt why she's here now. She knows why she's here. And there's still no attempt to ask questions or react to the reason that she's being here, which I think is the biggest red flag that we've seen so far. If you ever get a gun stolen, you'll remember it. You don't forget it, you know which one it was and you're gonna go, yeah, it was my, and you'll say what it was. There's no question about that. Apparently, she's gonna be in the Guinness Book of World Records for the amount of times her cars have been broken into. I've never heard anybody say their cars have been broken into that many times. It's incredible. And that really does bug me about the gun though because I know she'd remember that. And when they asked about if it was, if they ever found it, she says, I know nobody told me or whatever she uses in that. Come on, man. You say, no, no, I didn't get it back. You'd know what it was. The detective, when he says, when did you know that happened? Oh, when did that happen when your gun was taken? You can hear the excitement in his voice at that point. When you watch this again, listen to it because you can hear it. That's the most emotionally driven question. The whole thing is that one. He was waiting to ask that too. So let's see. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I got no more non-verbal because the last one blew my mind on non-verbal. I don't think I can ever see another human body or face again. So what happens here for me is, well, exactly what you say, Scott, is beyond credibility that she wouldn't know exactly where her, I believe it's her service weapon. So it's beyond credibility that you wouldn't know that where it was taken from, you'd remember that. And that it has not been recovered. So I think what's happening here, and I'm conjecturing this really, is that she is trying to work out whether they've recovered the weapon. I think that's what's going on because if they have dredged it up from somewhere, there's a worry that it, I guess, fits some ammo and then it's all over pretty much. So I think that's what the issue is here. And that's why both parties are trying to slowly, slowly catch each other as to what is going on here and why that lead up takes so long. They beautifully lead her into this question and then take her slowly through it as she kind of, I don't know, for want of a better metaphor starts, you know, constructing her own noose around all of this. Greg, what do you got for us? Yeah, I have quite a bit actually and it's all not quite the things that you would expect. First of all, there's a pondering face. She's thinking and trying to figure out what they're talking about. Why are they asking all these questions about cars and then suddenly you see it? Her eyes start to drop down to her left and down to her right and down to her left and down to her right. That, when I first started learning about eye movement, told me that somebody was going internal because they're having a conversation about something and then they're feeling and they're having a conversation about something and then they're feeling and that's a predecessor to pre-confession. When we see that, you know that the person's already starting to do the work for you. You see that and then she's kind of on the ropes. You see some distaste and her brow go down and she says, like what? What did things happen to your car? Like what? She's avoiding the question. She's making them actually ask the question, did you ever have anything stolen? Yeah, long vowel, longest vowel I've heard in the entire thing. Now that you ask, not those words but exactly what she said, now that you ask, that long vowel tells me something's going on in her head and then she's realizing there must be some significance to what they're asking. She says, the gun. They ask, is it your service revolver? And she says, no, hmm, hmm. This is worth the entire interrogation for those two things. That's a pregnant no, I would poke on her and say, what kind of gun was it? Was it your backup? Go into whatever you wanted to do but then she clearly understands this is the danger question. She's in trouble right now. And Mark, I think you're right. She probably thinks that you either found the gun or something, but this is closing the loop. There's no more supposition. They're closing the loop here. And you see her do that bite thing you're talking about, Chase, which I think I agree with you is she's feeling stressed. And then she says, I'm sure you guys know where that was stolen from. That's this interrogation's over. There's clothes work to do but this interrogation's over. They've got her locked down. That's it. Do you ever have any problems with your cars? Like what? Is anything in general, car wrecks, anything stolen? Yeah, no, my car's never been stolen. Oh, no, crashed, hit and run. I mean, my Tercels was hit and run. Again, I got pictures of the hit and runs. I don't think any of my cars have ever been stolen. No. My cars haven't been stolen. Broken into... None of that, huh? Oh yeah, my cars have been broken into. But no cars have ever been stolen. Hold on, well, when, tell me about this, the car getting broken into. No, my car has been broken into several times. Oh, really? Do you ever lose anything? Yeah. Now that you mentioned it, let's see, I had a gun that was stolen. I had other stuff that was stolen. Not your duty gun, was it? No. That's good. Has it ever recovered? I don't know, no, I don't think so. Not that I know of. Never been notified? No, car's been broken into, yeah, several times. Where did that happen when your gun was taken? I'm sure you guys must know. Um, because my car was broken into in Ventura, I think in Santa Monica, I have relatives that live in Santa Monica and Venice. Like I said, as we were looking at the case, and, you know, we had read the notes as far as from, Sherry's friend saying, you guys had problems or words, and they got heated. You know, and the reason we're asking you is, they had mentioned that an incident at her work had occurred, and they've also told us that an incident at her house occurred. You know what? And this is at her house during the period of time that they're married. That's just not sounding familiar at all. I mean, I, you know what? That's just not sounding, again, if someone says that I was at her house and I had an incident with her, you know, that just doesn't sound, I, you know, was John there? Did John say this happened? Because, and other people were there. I just, I don't recall. I mean, it just doesn't sound, you know, familiar. Chase, what do you got? We see a lot going on here of that didn't happen versus that doesn't sound familiar. There's just, this is just the same exact thing she's been doing the whole time. That doesn't sound familiar. Which is common in police who are also guilty suspects. Trained interrogation, because that is very hard for an interrogator to do anything about. And it sounds great in the deposition after you're going through the trial process, going through the deposition. Did you say such and such on this date to the interrogator? You say, no, I said, I don't recall. Show me the transcript. It says I don't recall. I remember it doesn't sound familiar. So it's just kind of like this case body armor. It's deposition body armor. It's kind of what she's planning for here at this point. We see another postural retreat here. She's leaning back in her chair. So now she's getting into this more desperate information seeking behavior and dropping information with repetitive confirmation glasses to see if someone's going to nod. Someone's going to say, oh yeah, such and such said this or it's from a written statement from a neighbor. And this is where maybe a bait question could come in or we could throw in something with an incorrect detail. So like, well, is there any reason one of the neighbors would say that you were holding a baseball bat? And that's a little bit extreme. Was there any reason the neighbors would have said you punched Sherry in the face during this interaction check? No, no, that didn't happen. So you want them to have, you want to trigger their need to correct the record as much as possible. And you only want to do that when they're in the extreme mindset of saving face. So you see extreme face saving behavior, you trigger the need to correct the record with one of those false information questions. Not a leading question, kind of a bait question. Mark Bowden. Yeah, nice. So to your point earlier in the last video, Greg, I think she's now in the state of pretty much knowing the jig is up on this one. And I suspect that from the, look at her focus right at the start of that. Look how her skin tone has changed. Look how there's nothing going on in the face, just extreme focus. She now has this, and you know, look how pallid the skin is. There's a sense of it, almost the blood draining away. Now it does whip up again as she moves in as Chase was saying there into the usual structure of, I just don't recall, doesn't seem right to me. And she starts using this technique of going, hey, basically, have you got a witness? Give me, give me, if you can provide the name of a witness, and then I think her tactic would be to undermine then that witness. The number one she'd know, they've got somebody who says they saw something happening and she'd then try and undermine that. What we do see, I think, in her nonverbal is for me, not only a slow blink of recognition, but a full nod of recognition on incident at her work. And I think we met, and then she shifts right forward. And I think within that shift, we might see the same actions again around going round to her house. It's a bit difficult for me to see because there's a lot of big movement at the time. And I may be just, you know, rolling in a normal head nod and blink that would come with that shift of movement. I'm not sure. But certainly I think we see this blink of recognition around incident at her work. Greg, what have you got on this one? Yeah, same thing. Compare her, first of all, compare her posture here, that wall plate behind her. Go back and look at video one. Her head is fully below that. Now you can see the plate up above her head. She's way below it. And if you notice, she has real eye lock and no facial expression except for that quick nod when he's talking about having words. With you, Mark, that means something. And then she is just in a place, she raises forward and then she figuratively and I think also internally, she literally and I think also figuratively just kind of slumps back in her chair. I think that's the beginning of the end for her and she's drowning. And then she does chase your dead on. She does what she knows best. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. She knows that's worked a million times. If you go back and watch the entire video of this thing, and you'll see this guy do an artful thing later where he starts to say, would you recall that as a police officer? Yes, I would. And he gets her into some cognitive dissonance about why she doesn't recall about something like that happened. But I think she here is at the end of her rope and I think it's over. It's just a matter of how long it takes to close. Scott, what do you got? All right. Yeah, at the top, she's very still when he's asking the question. She's still trying to gather information. She still doesn't know for sure what they have. And she starts asking about the guy, John, what apparently she thinks he's coming in and said, ah, here's, he's ratin' on her is what she thinks. He wouldn't be ratin' on her. I guess he may suspect her. But it sounds like she's concerned that he's involved with this part of it. Her seat adjustment, like Chase was saying at that part about the incident at work had occurred. That's adapting. Again, she's trying to remove herself from that distance herself from it. And when he says the incident, when the incident at her house occurred, you can see her eyes get real wide at that point. So that should be, those guys should have in their head going, ah, here we go, this is it, got it. Her voice tone, it softens and the volume gets, she has fading facts as she goes along. And her head is still illustrating, but it's still a combination of the conversational punctuators that we talked about earlier. And we're still seeing those blending of emotions on her face. And I think she's almost, I think they're wearing her out a little bit. I think she's just about ready to give up at that point. So that's what I got. All right, anybody want to add anything? No. The only thing I would add just since we're not closing the entire thing. Go watch the close to this. We'll show you the end, but go watch this video. This is a very powerful interrogation. You watch cops interrogating one of their own and she knows all the tricks. And you've seen her play every trick that she's seen in her life here. Yeah, and they do such a fantastic job with it. They do such a great job with it. It's really impressive. Like I said, as we were looking at the case and we had read the notes as far as from Sherry's friend saying, you guys had problems or words and they got heated. The reason we're asking you is they had mentioned that an incident at her work had occurred. And they've also told us that an incident at her house occurred. And this is at her house during the period of time that they're married. That's just not sounding familiar at all. I mean, I, you know what? That's just not sounding. Again, if someone says that I was at her house and I had an incident with her, you know, that just doesn't sound, you know, was John there? Did John say this happened? Because, and other people were there, I just, I don't recall. I mean, it just doesn't sound, you know, familiar. Well, all right. Well, if you like what we're doing, please subscribe. All I gotta do is hit that little red thing down there and a little bell pop up, hit that and it'll let you know when we have a new show come out. And once you click that, you become a panelist and just like us. So come on in. The nerdiness is fine. Yeah, so subscribe if you want to. All right, anybody want to add anything else? No. All right. This is a good and fellas and I'll see you next time. See you. Bye now. Thanks, yes. Stephanie, you know, you have the right to remain silent. Do you understand? Yes. Anything you say may be used against you in court. Do you understand? Yes. You have the right to the presence of an attorney before and during any questioning. Do you understand? Yes. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you free of charge before any questioning if you want. Do you understand? Yes. If you want to talk to us right now. No. All right. Okay. This is crazy. Okay. I'm like, I'm like in shock. I'm totally in shock.