 Thank you on that. I'll call the meeting of the committee the whole to order for this evening Is that coming on? Testing testing On that I'll call the meeting of the committee the whole to order this evening, and we'll have roll call Bowman Berg here Bonnet Doyle graph Manny Montemay air moody Perez Rindflash Stefan Ben Akron Van der Weelie Wangaman Warner and Weninger I would ask for approval of the minutes from our August 18th 2003 meeting I have a motion and a second to approve the minutes from our previous meeting. Are there any additions or subtractions? Hearing none all those in favor of the motion is stated signify by saying aye Chair votes aye all those opposed hearing none the motion passes on that Alderman Rindflash I have an opening comment and then we'll move on after that one I'll I'll give you a chance to speak it then first. I'd like to thank everyone for attending this evening's meeting as Well as those tuned in on TV 8 Tonight we'll hear comments from the community regarding the establishment of a fee based stormwater management system Our city has had its share of flooding problems as we are all well aware and an important part of addressing the problem Is the management of stormwater? After the public comments are heard we'll have a presentation by our department of public works That will explain the stormwater management proposal and its benefits to the city Alderman Rindflash if you can do it quickly then I want to move into the public let the public get up here So in the meantime, I'll let you make your comment actually no comments, mr. Chairman I'm happy to see that somebody somebody the public are here to speak over in terms of the agenda I would move that we actually move the presentation first before the public speaker that way Public works has an opportunity to present their case and then the public would have the opportunity to Question after the presentation was her that would make a more informed public. I guess my feeling on that hearing no second I have a motion and a second to have the public pretension or the presentation first the feeling on that was to have The public air their concerns so that the it could be addressed during the presentation rather than after it I guess I would urge that we stick by the format I was thought out in that aspect that the public would be able to air their concerns and then the Public Works Department would give the presentation. Hopefully that would answer some of their questions at that time So on that I have a motion and a second And a motion is to have the public works presentation prior to the public comment period All those in favor those opposed Roll call vote, please Berg Bonnet Doyle Graph Manny Montemare Moody Perez Rindflash Stefan Then Akron Vanderwee Lee Wangeman Warner six nose nine Now the motion passes we will have the public works presentation first On that I would introduce Tom Holton our director of public works and engineering and ask him to kick us off Dave B. Will be giving Dave B Will be giving a PowerPoint presentation on the proposed utility if you're gonna do the lights There is a pack of papers that each each page is the exact same thing that I'm going to be showing on the on the wall I'd be easier for the television public to see this But if you can follow along and we'll try to keep some of the lights on so you can follow along in your packets In the meantime, I have a sign-up sheet here for speaking and what I'll do while they're giving a presentation If you can put your name on this sheet, we'll just call you in order to the podium so that everyone can speak Thank You mr. Chairman Stormwater utility what what we're talking about here is is really not a new concept We the city of Sheboygan has been active in stormwater management since I'd say 1989 in terms of active in terms of the new philosophy In managing stormwater not just from a quantity aspect of moving water But also as a as a quality issue in terms of stormwater in terms of its water quality its effect on rivers and lakes and The city has been very active in it since 1989 the stormwater utility is basically a funding mechanism to pay for To pay for the program. It's based on two things. It's based on The cost of the city's operation to manage stormwater in an effective means And it's based also upon the properties imperviousness Ie its its rooftops its driveways its parking lots that directly contributes to rainwater Running off from the property and entering into our storm sewer systems and eventually into our rivers lakes and streams The city has had its flooding problems as we can all remember of the flood of 1998 and lastly We first proposed this utility concept back in in 1997 As I mentioned stormwater utilities charge a fee for the direct for the for the amount of impervious surface area Property has which directly contributes to the runoff of the storm sewer system This system of financing is equitable and fair in comparison to the current method of property taxes under our existing system Residential properties pay around 70% of the cost of our stormwater management program But only really contribute 44% of the impervious area within the city of Sheboygan Industrial and commercial properties are currently paying approximately 30% of the cost of this program However, they are contributing 56% of the impervious area with within the within the city This concept is is similar to your water or sanitary sewer bill Properties are charged accordingly for what they use are contribute to the system in this case The the in the stormwater utility example a property owner is charged a fee for what their property contributes to the runoff The stormwater utility would also be established and administered just as our as our wastewater treatment plant is it's considered an Enterprise fund within the city city's budget and is under the Department of Public Works and Common Council authority It would not be set up as a separate utility such as our our water our water utility Which is reports to a board of commissioners that the council elects As I mentioned earlier the stormwater utility is not a new concept many Wisconsin communities have already established these utilities in order to fund their stormwater management and infrastructure needs and Just a little tidbit. I guess on our infrastructure the city of Sheboygan has over a hundred and two miles of storm sewers With 91 outfalls and the outfalls is where that water eventually discharges into either a Stream the Sheboygan River Pigeon River our Lake Michigan 38 of those 91 are considered major outfalls, which is 42 inches and are larger and that's important because those 38 are especially Regulated by the EPA and in the Department of Natural Resources In addition the city of Sheboygan has over 3,200 storm sewer manholes and close to 7,000 corner inlets and catch basins The city's storm sewer system is constantly growing and will need to be maintained on a continual basis This is not a system that is is is going to go away in the future Just as our water system our sanitary sewer system our storm sewer system is an integral part of the watershed management theory This next chart and you're probably easier to follow along in your pages Demonstrates this is the Wisconsin communities that already have established stormwater utilities within the state of Wisconsin As you can see there's the city of Appleton town of Bellevue village of Butler city of Cudahy There's approximately 20 there's 25 on here and this was from the year 2002 This came from the Wisconsin State Chapter of the American Public Works Association They did a survey at the spring conference in 2002 I was at the 2003 spring conference in Madison this year and this was the number one topic in terms of What our community is doing to address their stormwater management needs and how many of them were going to be bringing these online And by far this was a very important topic and hot topic at the conference and those that did not have it We're all talking about how do we get this going? What do we need to do because what's happening is with with the state budget and their own local budget concerns? the importance of stormwater is is being Being elevated along with the new regulations from the EPA and DNR in order to have a stable funding source They're looking at this concept the stormwater utility our projected annual operations budget for stormwater management for 2004 and this is nine months This is this is on a basis if we'd start this utility April and April of 2004 We're looking at one million fifteen thousand three hundred and ten dollars There's some administration costs with that and in terms of engineering the building system We're looking at Corrections in the building The NR 216 is the natural resources rule that mandates Stormwater management activities and right now that's estimated around 32,000. We're in our third year of our what is called our stormwater permit and It's it's a progressive permit as you get further along in your permit over the years more and more stringent Activities on your stormwater management system are placed Right now we we're we're monitoring some outfalls per the DNR and in the future We will have to do more stringent follow-up after testing of stormwater to pinpoint the sources of pollutants The other activities are what's currently going on is for storms to our maintenance account, which is five hundred thirty seven thousand two two seventy eight that includes all of our activities within the department such as Storm storm sewer repair replacement of corner catch basins that are that are in need of repair manhole repair those type of activities The other activity is street sweeping and cleaning Which is three hundred and twenty four thousand dollars right now? And that includes our annual street sweeping as well as fall fall leaf collection operations Right now we have three full-time sweepers on a daily basis Keeping the streets clean and free of debris as much as possible We pick up annually around four hundred tons of debris just from street sweeping That has to go to a landfill as per the DNR requirements In addition, I mentioned earlier in the line item above storm sewer maintenance Another activity is is vacuuming or without of our catch basins the debris that collects in the catch basins That's what they're designed to do. They're designed to collect some of those heavier sediments and cigarette butts and non floatable type of material prior to getting in and going into our rivers and streams and That has to be cleaned out periodically In averaging there when we first started we haven't done it for some time But when we got into it and under the mandates the first year we had close to six hundred tons of debris that we picked up Now we're averaging close to around two hundred and fifty tons annually Last component of the budget is is based on the three dollar Per month for a single-family residence the balance left over from the operations Being covered is what would be contributed to our capital improvements program And that's estimated right now at one one hundred thousand thirty thirty-two thousand As I mentioned proposed start is April 1st of 2004 It'd be after the first quarter in 2004 Currently with our study that is it is estimated to the city of Sheboygan is estimated to have a total of 40,000 to 45,000 ERU's what is can what is considered an equivalent runoff unit Based on a nine-month budget of operations of one million fifteen thousand with an additional 132 132,000 for capital improvements that divided by our average of forty two thousand five hundred equivalent runoff units This equates to a nine-month cost of twenty seven dollars per ERU Which would cost the residential property three dollars per month are thirty six dollars annually an example a single-family resident Would have one ERU Equivalent runoff unit at one ERU. That's three dollars per month are thirty six dollars annually now Other than single-family residents what what the system looks at is actual square footage then of the Impervious area the single-family residences are are Taking a statistical sample of all the single-family residents throughout the community and Averaged in the average single-family residents impervious areas 2215 square feet Now this is examples of a tax exam property of a church That has 61,197 total square feet of impervious area Divide that number by the two thousand two fifteen and they have a equivalent of 27.6 ERUs or in other words they contribute or they have enough impervious area of Approximately twenty seven point six homes. That's what their runoff is So you would take that twenty seven point six ERU Multiplied by the three dollar charge their monthly charge would be eighty two dollars and eighty cents are their annual costs Would equate to 993 dollars and sixty cents Another example is a commercial property with its own parking lot In this example this commercial property has 59,308 Square feet of impervious area take that number divided by once again the two thousand two fifteen Which is your single ERU factor that equates to twenty six point eight ERU's Once again this property commercial with its rooftop and its parking lot is the equivalent of twenty six point eight homes Contributing runoff to our storm sewer system Therefore you multiply that ERU factor times the three dollar charge their monthly charge would be eighty dollars Forty cents per month are an annual charge of nine hundred sixty four dollars eighty cents Obviously the the larger facility the more impervious area the more square feet Here's a larger in this example. She was a larger Industrial facility located in the city's industrial park. It has a total of four hundred and forty two thousand six six hundred eight Square feet of impervious area now take that figure divided by the two thousand two fifteen They have equivalent of 199.8 Rounded let's just round it here for discussion purposes They they that property with their parking lot is basically the equivalent of two hundred homes in terms of its runoff as result multiplied their ERU factor They're their number of ERU's times the the single charge of three dollars their monthly charge would be $599.40 a month our seven thousand one ninety two Seven thousand one hundred ninety two and eighty cents annually and these are These are examples. I want to be we're going to be forthright with the council and the public When we still have to verify the square footage this this data that we had was from 1997 So we tried to pick examples where properties did not increase much of their their area in that time City Hall City Hall would have to pay it's just like a utility bill just like the water and sanitary sewer So City Hall even though it doesn't pay taxes It does have a water and sewer bill for the water and sewer uses in this case City Hall has 16,147 square feet of impervious area this equates to seven point twenty-nine ERU's are seven point three So City Hall is the equivalent of seven point three single family homes in the community in terms of its runoff contribution as a result at three dollars Times that seven point three. We're looking at twenty one dollars and ninety cents a month our two hundred and sixty two dollars and eighty cents annually I guess in summary according with our city finance director Rich Guephardt a Stormwater utility fee of about approximately one dollar per month per equivalent runoff unit the ERU Would generate approximately five hundred thousand dollars per year for for stormwater management The city tax levy would have to increase an additional two point seven percent to fund the same five hundred thousand dollars to the program Taxes for a residential property valued at eighty three thousand would increase twenty three dollars Given the competing forces within the budget The storm sewer system will need to have its own funding source to be able to meet the daily and future demands The timing of this discussion is now even more important Not only is the city of Sheboygan facing mandates to implement a comprehensive stormwater management system The state budget will have serious implications on the department's ability to meet these needs As I mentioned implementation could begin April 2004 and I guess prior to closing I guess lastly we mentioned some of the these regulations and and In terms of the water quality in stormwater management and and runoff non-point source Runoff is the buzzword that you might hear in the media is becoming more and more hot topic Especially with beach closings and stormwater Runoff has been documented and linked to to poor water quality You can take our beaches this summer We've had to close the north and south beaches close to a dozen times this summer Terry Andrew was even worse The the public is more conscious a Conscience of water quality and these issues and with I guess the city's Investment in our lakefront our riverfront in our infrastructure It only it only goes to prove that stormwater management is is even more critical now than ever. I Guess lastly what is our alternative that we're facing? The department could continue to fund. I guess it's stormwater management program via the property tax method however with the general fund being further and further Constrained stormwater management is is going to need to be Going to be need to be funded in the future And it's only going to cause future concerns in that budget this way with this with this system it removes that from that from those constraints and We can concentrate on on our flooding issues as well as our water quality issues and I guess with that mr. Chairman This presentation is complete Since we changed the format a little bit of our meeting in the way it's going I thought that At this time if the older persons have any questions on the presentation that they would like to ask Now would probably be a good time to ask them and then we'll move into the public got input section Hold them in vernacorn Mr. Beaver To family house That rated To two families will will have a percentage of an ear you they won't have the one full ear you So I think what we decided on was point seven we're looking at other utilities the way they are developed They break it down. So each unit would pay a portion of point seven each Beyond the three family then four families on up would be actual measurement of impervious area Single family But we have we have a lot of two families that are side they're side-by-side units, so they're probably 50% larger than a single family Then those a lot of the older two families have a much bigger footprint than a single family house to them Some of them have a larger driveway some have parking areas also So it's we had to try to pick an average and that's what we had chose as point seven per unit for two family and three families Don is an answer your question all the momentum may or first Thank you very much. I have a question and I assume the answer is yes, but let me ask the question Our friend blue Harbor. They'll be paying the fee, right? Or will that come out of room taxes blue Harbor will be paying the fee All of them in price Thank you, mr. Chairman. I do have a few questions here with respect to the stormwater utility I'll Dave mentioned that we've been active and managing since 1989 How are we doing it before without taxing the people additionally? I don't work on the DNR. We had received over two million dollars in grants To help with the system and for maintenance and for improving the system with that money for the most part is dried up. That's gone And it didn't how are you doing it then? Still being done stormwater management is still being done I think the answer is that it's coming out of the general fund at this time stormwater management costs basically that's track Yes, okay. Thank you. And then on stormwater utility If it's not a utility, where are we calling it utility? It won't have its own individual border commissioners as a I Think it's just a name is a storm stormwater management program okay the On stormwater utility again the second page here stormwater utilities charge a fee for the amount of impervious surface area A property has which directly contributes run off to the stormwater sewer system if we have a house as Worth $60,000 in a house worth $250,000. They're gonna pay the same because there is If there's a single family, yes, that's correct. Yes So the guy doesn't have a real big house doesn't have a lot of impervious surface It's not a regardless generally the larger houses. They have a larger lodge and looking at the outskirts So a percentage wise probably not too different the percent of impervious area versus vegetated area But my district has a lot of the older homes. They don't have a lot of rooftop They don't have a lot of payment. They don't have a lot of dry in fact someone don't have dry way Their homes are appraised at $70,000 $60,000. They're gonna pay the same as a $200,000 home, right? That's correct. Okay The annual operations budgets stormwater management, I see that administration here is a hundred twenty one thousand five hundred The last report we got last year was forty two thousand The difference is that part of the information we did not have some of our our engineering costs that we currently Go out right now for as well as we didn't have accurate figures in terms of what with the billing costs because what The proposal would be this would go on the water bill and to add that to the water bill It's there's going to be a fee charge from the water utility for them to administer that we've give them the database But yet they still have to print it out and send those out for us Intercorally, we have to pay them for that service We hired us basically a stormwater engineer at solid does is design of our storm sewer system Before we used to consult out and we paid a lot more for it and that wasn't even in The administration fee and the last time we looked at this now we have a person in that position That's pretty much sold the sole job is for designing storm source. Okay, and finally my last question is to chairman Proposed start of April 1st 204 here The last handout I got was 265 a month where we get three dollars for it I think there isn't all of them present isn't three dollars as as as a figure that you can round up easily and Actually in strategic fiscal planning three dollars was or finance and public works three dollars was a recommendation That's coming to the council, but it has not been passed the two dollars and sixty five cents was the original fee and three dollars Is something that you can say is thirty six dollars a month very easily It's been it's being sent to council No, we have not improved a rate at all. There's no rate no rating approval at all. That's an incorrect statement Alderman van der wheelie, thank you, mr. Chairman. I have a question for rich give her Would you be able to explain? Why the stormwater fee would benefit the taxpayers versus just putting it on the tax bill? What how would it benefit the taxpayer? Well, I think Dave Stated here. I think a couple of times to the the concept here of the utility is that you will have a Continuous stream of revenue to go for this purpose As Dave mentioned there's concern about state revenues and the impact on our operational budgets if the stormwater Appropriations stay within the general fund budget obviously they're going to be impacted the same as all their departments They're going to be receiving some kind of Negative adjustments, which means less is going to get done They're going to have a harder time to meet the state requirements in our 216 and all those requirements that they have to meet That that I think it is the main purpose of it and you know a concern here at this point If we have a utility set up and have a continuous stream of revenue, they'll be able to continue to do the job That's required Obviously, you know, I guess it's a question for the council here how we handle the transition If we put this as a separate utility the Appropriations will come out of the general fund and be segregated into a separate fund and those revenues that come in will obviously be part of that fund You know at that point there is you know it gives additional capacity to the general fund to assist it in some of the impacts that we are receiving here right now in the way of Decreases and shared revenues and transportation aides increases in pension and health costs But that would be a separate decision that the council would have to make and how we go through that transition Thank you, Mr. Chairman just to add to that also on the storm water fee or tax or whatever you want to call it is We'll be paid by not only the property owners, but the nonprofits as well as the Tax exempt properties and so forth that are not contributing to our general fund right now But Dave can you touch on a little bit more about the street sweeping because I've heard a lot of Concern about three hundred twenty four thousand dollars to sweet street for streets sweeping seems like an awful lot and Is that something that's mandated by the DNR and What what's the purpose of that It is mandated and we have to remember we have 200 miles of streets within the city of Shiboy and now Multiplied at times to 200 miles because you have to do each side of the street So you have 400 miles to do the city in one one loop We like I said, we have three full-time people three machines Including the debris that they pick up there's disposal costs for that debris included in the street sweeping budget is is the fall leaf collection program as well and On average, I would say we're picking up you know Between what we get at the drop-off site and and on the streets My what we pick up on the streets is close to four thousand tons of leaves during that during that season We average right around with yard waste and leave collection through our through our drop-off site is right around I'm gonna say six to seven thousand tons of yard waste debris that that we collect annually and a large majority of that is the fall leaf collection and obviously that's that's a concern With the DNR the we we have to sweep the streets no matter what and Right now, I know there's concern with with raking the leaves into the street and the concern of that but If we don't pick it up that way or our equipment set up to do that in the most efficient and effective means if we don't pick that up that that that the debris gets into our sewer system gets in gets into the the the debris gets into the the streams and that indicates and is another source of Pollution that the DNR calls which is bio biochemical demand. So There there's there's issues with the leaf leaf leaf collection program But that that's where the majority of the costs with that program rely Another question that I have is regarding I've received several calls from people that are at the trailer courts and Asking are they going to be given consideration because most of their trailers are 70 by by 60 or something like that Will they get charged the same ERU that a single family home or are because You know the other night at public or joint committee meeting a public works and finance a Rate of three dollars was was proposed to be sent to the council now That has not been approved or anything and that's a different discussion completely as far as whether we should have stormwater management system or fee in place or the Or the amount we should charge is something that's coming a later date and There will be an opportunity and I hope that the council will have some input into Looking at these ERU's as well as the rate and saying well, we think it should be this and we think an ERU should be determined like this or Am I not correct it? Yes, we and we and right now I guess what we have before us is an ordinance that has some of that data in there right now We were we've proposed Mobile home courts or manufactured homes to be considered one ERU same as a single family resident We based that decision after some discussion internally with our the consultant that we dealt with and staff is that their their Developments are compact more so than a single family residence, which has more green space. So they're more compact Granted they have a smaller ERU or our square footage in terms of runoff but they're they're compact they do have driveways they do have storage sheds and Therefore we we determined is to go with the one ERU now I'll be honest with you some communities go with a half ERU some communities go with a point seven and That you know, I is out there for debate. I It's I'm we're not it's it's not of not exact science when it gets to some of these What I call great areas such as the mobile homes or the multi families It's it's set up on each individual Communities Characteristics when you start looking at the community as a whole looking at these areas I got to remember now one of our mobile home parks is in the Fishman's Creek watershed and They had significant flooding in that area. We've the city has invested Some major capital expenses upstream from there with the green wing ponds in terms of trying to slow that runoff Coming from the west into that area, so Even though they they don't have curb and guard they don't have storm sewer They benefit from the general stormwater management principles that that the city has enacted Just in that instance we spent two and a half million dollars upstream of Indian metals Regarding if this council so chooses Well, if we implement the storm water system And we so choose to to take a look at the ERU factor or the the cost or For instance, if we'd like to do something all by square footage how much additional would that cost as far as Working the numbers up Are you you're asking a question for like the single-family residences? I It's my understanding working with our consultant and looking at other stormwater utilities the way they were Developed the the single-family resident is is based on an average square footage throughout your community And yes, you're going to have some as alderman Perez has stated is that you're going to have some homes that are going to be Very large and pay the same rate as some homes that are very have a very small footprint But on average on average is there's a large majority of the homes that fall within that statistical average Now if we went on an individual basis, I think then you use administration costs that you see that are 121,000 right now. I would have to say they would Increase significantly in terms of trying to go out there measure every property. I believe there's over 17,000 close to 18,000 parcels within the city of Sheboygan and to measure each one individually and develop a rate would take in a Streaming on period of time and and be very expensive When we did this they were they were called rust now they're earth tech Thank you all the man graph Alderman van der wille Thank You mr. Chairman What are we looking at for startup costs Just to start this whole process We had a consultant the fee was 40 45 thousand dollars They would go through and help with the billing to get that set up They go through and check all of our data off our aerials, which we already had flown this year to Come up with the impervious areas for all the non residential Properties the water utility for the billing was 30,000 a year roughly So that the best that can tell what would be the two startup costs of 45,000 for the Consultant roughly the 30,000 for the water utility for the billing open rain flies Thank You two points first Clarify if you will again, we don't have a rate established per se right now say one does get established said utility does get established Down the road ten years looking at some kind of utility rate hike explain the process involved who sets the rate Who approves the rates? How does that go down the road? Council would ultimately set the rate so I'd assume that be a recommendation through public work establishing the rate for the following year But say in the future ten years down the road if I need to change Does it still come through the council for a rate increase or decrease even or I'm sorry on our stand your question I think the council would have to change it then all of them and Ryan's life the way it's done because it would Public utility commission or anything in the state. It's strictly something we have control of here. Yes. Yeah, it would be Very similar exact basically exactly the same as we do with our wastewater sewer system It's it's it's under the public works authority They developed their budget that we bring it to the Public Works Committee for review and then it comes to common council for for passage Second point. Thank you I'm glad first of all to hear that we actually maintain the control here versus someone else setting our rates for us Second to those I'm afraid that I think we might be getting a little bit ahead of ourselves I've had several questions about how much is this going to cost me and the information I had last week was to 65 Until today I said three dollars and ultimately even if we pass the utility today It's totally possible that counts comes back. It says five six seven dollars. We don't necessarily know I'm a little concerned that when people ask me what you know if I'm going to vote one way or the other and how much is It going to cost me? I don't have a definitive answer right now for the homes I would I would urge that perhaps we slow down Establish the cost know what we're going to have in the city know exactly what we're going to have for capital improvements And know exactly how much is going to cost before we vote on this. I think all the right place Alderman longerman Thank You mr. Chairman just one simple little question if this Document were enacted where would that fee appear would it be on your water bill or your tax bill or what it'd be on your water bill It'd be a third line you have your water charge your sanitary sewer charge. You have a third line For your stormwater fee Thank you In partial answer to one question that Alderman Ryan flesh brought up the committee the committee on public works and finance both approved sending a three-hour recommendation to the council and That we can change if we want when it comes to the council we have complete control over what that fee is I don't think that anyone in this room has any plans going up to Five or six or ten dollars and I think it is a good thing that we keep it in the council And that's the important part of this rather than Creating another commission that this common council who's elected by the people Has the decision-making process on those rates when they when they're raised when they're lowered at some point That could possibly happen in the future very unlikely but could so that's At this time, I think unless the council has any further questions We would ask for public input at this time and I see Dulcy Johnson is On the list first and Dulcy I'd ask you to try to keep it as close to three minutes as possible for expediency As close as possible. Thank you Dulcy Johnson 1306 North 3rd Street. I would like to speak in opposition to this stormwater utility fund tax I think you're going down a slippery slope when you start enacting new taxes We already have a wheel tax and I understand I have been told that that money is not even used for road repairs so while I'm concerned about New taxes and especially creating a new utility. We're talking about a permanent tax and I in looking at this budget. I really don't understand what street sweeping has to do with stormwater If you add the cost of administration and the street street sweeping and cleaning you get $446,000 out of a total operations budget of about a million dollars. So That's a you know, almost half of what you're asking to collect in this new tax is going to go for Administration and cleaning the streets. I thought that was a public works issue so I Understand that you're maxed out on capital improvements So you've got to look to other alternatives and I don't live in an area that we're flooding is a problem I've never had to deal with that But I know it is a problem in certain areas of the city and it is something that has to be dealt with But I think it should be dealt with through the general fund So what are the alternatives to the budget crisis that you find yourselves in I? Think first of all you have to bite the bullet You need to enact layoffs shortened hours unfortunately like the library I do not understand why city employees and other departments cannot share that burden There's always a way to work better and smarter and I think you also need to consider other sources of revenue rather than double taxing your constituents for essential services and We've just learned that we are the 12th highest property tax city in the United States Part of the current crisis of course was created by the lower shared revenues But instead of pleading innocent to helping create the crisis as I heard Alderman Stefan do at Monday nights council meeting You need to evaluate your past decisions wages and salary increases benefits Consultants endless studies Properties removed from the tax rolls to evaluate to for another parking lot or park Thousands of dollars for a high-priced attorney from Milwaukee to negotiate the Blue Harbor contract. I Haven't heard anything about increasing fees for nonessential services the marina River dock Boating boat launch fees, etc We all know friends and family as I do who have been laid off under the current economy And I think the city needs to consider that The 2% tax increase that has been voted on by the council has been characterized by Alderman graph as tax relief Last year while the cost of living increased one and a half percent city taxes increased four percent And so now Alderman graph misconstrues a 2% tax increase as tax relief Well at the same time advocating additional taxes of $66 we're talking $66 $36 for stormwater management $10 for a wiggle tax and $20 for recycling and we haven't even gotten to the garbage collection tax yet in 1998 We paid a little over $4,000 in property taxes in 2002 we paid almost $5,000 and we have not made any improvements any remodeling projects to our house With the re-evaluation with the increased Development the industrial park annexations With a re-evaluation I would think the property taxes would be lower not higher and to me that says that you're really overspending Alderman Warner has said Extraordinary times require extraordinary actions indeed These are extraordinary times for your constituents and you need to hold the line on city costs on New taxes new projects you need to approve layoffs Shorten work hours You need to sharpen your pencils and I urge you to reject this new Stormwater utility tax. Thank you. Thank you. Dulce. I Did let her go on a little bit further and I'm asking everyone to try to hold it to three minutes rather than limit you and Slam the gavel down before you're you're done speaking. I'd like to allow you to speak as much as you can But try to keep it down a little bit. I know Dulce is quite passionate about this as many others are So I guess we'd rather spend a little bit more time here if necessary and let everyone speak so the next one on the One question for Dulce though that That I would ask is regarding the wheel tax Tom Can you tell us that wheel tax money is it spent on roads or use for something else? the wheel tax money Established 12 13 years ago Where $10 of vehicles 75,000 went to bridges the balance went to resurfacing which very little bit But it was typically around 250 thousand dollars now. It's down to six dollars Vehicle right now, which is generates about two hundred thousand dollars that goes towards our street paving program right currently right now So it does go through streets. I just wanted to clarify that I know that we are limited on how we can use those funds and when and I you can't just put them any any place you want Clarification next person is Jim van Akron Alderman graph. Thank you May I ask a question? Excuse me. I'm fine. I'll see Dulce and I'm going to be asking this of everyone unless everybody just keeps this in mind You know you told us certain things that we should do and things like that and what I'm looking for is okay If we don't enact this What services? Would you we'd be willing to see eliminated or what should we stop doing that we're doing now? as suggestions For us to follow Our refuse picked up at the career now. We have to haul it down to recycling now We have to pay twenty dollars to haul our stuff down to recycling If we do layoffs We do layoffs if we do shorten hours Ultimately, that's going to mean something is going to be eliminated. Look at what the library just did and Right, and I'm just asking what? What you could suggest it that you would not what what would you be willing to give up? I Ask you to consider privatization of garbage collection. They do that in other cities I can tell you a city in Florida that does that If a contract with the city they pick up garbage three times a week They pick up all the regular garbage all recyclables and all yard waste three times a week. They pick up garbage and that's Okay, the city contracts with a private collector. I guess I if that's it will see all of them graph I don't mind asking the question, but I guess we don't want to get them back and forth debate with every person but perhaps no as Dulce is so eloquent as it is she's able to do that I think that if anyone else has those ideas that would be the time Let's see here All the men price. Thank you. Mr. Chairman. Just just wanted to point out that we're here to listen to the public I wouldn't want us to engage in a debate with the public that they'd be an issue for another day But for now, I'd like to hear what the public has to say not us. This is their time And I agree And I agree with that. I think it's a good idea that all them and graph got this Oh, maybe we should ask her before they started speaking, but it would be nice to hear What city services you would consider unnecessary or or could be cut back in one way or another as you speak? All the men Doyle, I just disapprove completely. This is going to turn into a endless debate We offered this the crowd the opportunity for public input We should listen to that public input without one word from this part of the audience No comments from city staff from Alderman. Let's hear what the public has to say and cut out this frivolity. I Can I can agree with that on that Jim Menachron? Good evening. My name is Jim Menachron. I live at 432 Lincoln Avenue. I Support the concept of the need for stormwater management. It's an obvious essential city need But I have to ask you to think what is government for? Why do you exist? What is this body for? We all had our basic civic lessons through our schooling and basically government exists to provide for the health safety and also to provide Public recreational opportunities for everybody within the community Under our democracy We the people grant you the authority to act for the greater good of all of us So when you act Your act should be done for the greater good of all community and not to Single out individuals to provide these basic government needs And I suggest that stormwater management is a basic government need It does provide for the health of our community as mr. Bebel Talked about earlier. It does provide for the safety of our community And to charge a fee for something that is Essential for our health and safety goes beyond what I think you exist for That is your job. Your job is to protect us as a community and We're here to support you we have to provide the physical and the the monetary means to do that But to single out to charge a fee for services goes beyond what I had learned through my civic lessons. I Can distinguish the wheel tax because I have a choice there. I can choose not to drive a car I could take public transportation. I can walk. I can ride my bike And I don't have to pay that wheel tax if I choose to do that The water and sewer I can distinguish that somewhat because I can choose to reduce my consumption of those things But something like this a stormwater fee. I have no choice I have to pay it if I am a single if I have a single family dwelling No matter what I do to eliminate the need for stormwater or create stormwater problems. I still pay the same fee as somebody who may have a 7,000 square foot house and the person who has a 1,200 square foot house has to pay the same fee as long as it's a single family dwelling I believe it's a dangerous precedent that we set when we charge fees for these basic government services Soon, we'll be looking at fees for garbage pickup soon. We'll be looking at fees for fire Soon, we'll be looking at other fees and I think that is contrary to what we are here for I Want to see this. I want to see see stormwater management. I understand the health effect it has for me and my family But I think in dealing with your budget problems. This is an easy one for me for you to say no on I think it's very easy because it's contrary to what you the reason you exist You have a lot of tough decisions. I wish I had some suggestions But you know how this government runs a lot better than I do So my suggestions would be just simple off-the-cuff person sitting back watching what you do on a Kind of a casual basis I think it would be inappropriate for me to make the suggestion as to how we can save money Or how we need to raise money But I do believe that fees are clearly an inappropriate way to raise money and I encourage you to vote no on this Proposal I do want to see this addressed. I want to see these services provided But through a fee service is contrary to everything. I believe in what you the existence of your body Thank you. Oh, thank you. Mr. Van Akron The next person on on our list of speakers is Horst Fritz Felter I reside in the first ward on Rosewood and Isner Avenue and It's very difficult to help our city fathers when it comes to the finances and how the city should be run because Most people don't even know what's going on and if you expect to have the public Help you then we need a little more than these short little explanations that we have in the press you're talking about a few numbers But based on what we don't know really and why can't we can make a educated? Perhaps an educated guess, but we can't say anything specific So we have to be very general and I'm sure that most people don't like to do this But when I came to this meeting and I saw the presentation said oh great idea Now I'm going to pay for my syrup and they're going to subtract the equal amount from my taxes, right? Well, not so so we're going to have Other departments come forward and they're going to say the same thing. We need more for this We need more for that and you're going to pay a la carte. I don't think that's the way to go So what can we do to help you since you have a problem in getting this? Trash of the streets you have 400 tons to move I Would gladly ship in and I do already keep my part of the street clean You don't have to come and sweep my part of it I would be glad to take leaves and whatever I have to the recycling thing You don't have to pick that up. You don't need to execute. You don't have to do the 400 miles of travel With your garbage trucks and the vacuum trucks and what have you so you can cut that out and I believe if the citizens can save themselves some money I'm sure we get together and we can do it and for those that are unable to do it Let's get some neighborhood groups going and so we can help our neighbor do the same thing As far as the sewer fee I figured eventually you're going to run out of money because you're making all these extensions into new areas and You're not charging enough for those people that are going to benefit from These sewer systems such as blue harbour and many of the other extensions that happened over the last Since 1955 that I have been in the city and the city has been going past Wilson Avenue and past Eisen Avenue on the north side Our tax base got bigger and bigger But so did our taxes Also, I like to say what happens to the monies every time a property changes hands The tax bill goes up to the assessed the assessed valuation, which is what you paid for the house Like in my case five years ago. My tax bill went up over a thousand dollars Because that was the value I put on that house. That's what I paid for it now all these monies from these Property exchanges should add To our general fund we should have plenty of money to go around but it never seems to come up to that so I Don't think if we're gonna have a card I'll be glad to pay for snow plowing every time the snow plow comes by is fine every time it rains Okay, I'll pay for the for the storm water fee but this is nothing more than another additional tax or another way of getting revenue so And living on a fixed income I'm gonna have to come out here and fight for it because I don't get raises every year. I don't get any Not like some people three and three-quarter percent That's all I have to say. Thank you, Mr. Felter The next person on our agenda is Dan Merkel Okay, some of you know me some you don't but I'm a friend of Sheboygan and you know what that means so it's not a question of dollars and cents is a question of equity You know if you mentioned a person who has a Single lot with a $500,000 house on it pays the same as a poor guy with two empty lots saving to build a house on there That's not fair the second thing is Bureaucracy You've got people take care of this stuff But you want to create another bureaucracy hire more people That's stupid. The third thing is why not just add to the property tax because he charged me a fee Hillary won't help me But if you put on my property tax, Hillary will help me pay that and This gentleman here mentioned that you want to remove budgetary restraints. What does that mean? You're asking for a blank check I've said Thank You mr. Merkel the next person on our agenda is For speaking is Henry Capitello Hello, some of you people already know me My name is Henry Capitello, and I'm here Primarily for the building that we own home Inc. It's on 9th and superior Contrary to what some of the aldermen are saying we do pay property taxes this year We will pay $18,000 in property taxes for this year alone And I'm here because You know how much more do we have to pay you're looking at now I see this is smoke and mirrors You're saying now that we're going to have to pay a fee and This fee will eventually roll up Larger and larger You're taking it off the property taxes, which we still pay and then we're also going to pay now another fee For basically I'm paying for the rain that falls on my building that's what we're paying for and if you're looking at Trying to make an effort to listen to the input from the public I would make a suggestion that When you want public input there's a way to get it It's called a public referendum if you're looking to get an input from the public make it so that everybody can have an input Not just a handful of people that do make it to this meeting there's a lot of people that are not here that in the city of Sheboygan that probably opposed this and They they're not here, but I bet you if it was on a ballot They would there they would go there and they would vote for this and they would either vote for it Yes, or no, and I'm thinking that if you really want the input from the general public Then you should ask for it in a public form and that would be the way to do it if you're looking at keeping the taxes and looking at making an Effort to hold the line Everybody has to do it if you're in business Of course, you'd like to increase and hire more people But if you can't you're looking at reducing salaries you're looking at reducing staff You're looking at if you're a homeowner You're not going to put the siding on the house. You're not going to get The repair on the roof and maybe hold it off for another year These are some of the things that the ordinary public does in times when they cannot afford to spend Money on things that even though they really do need to they hold and they bite the bullet And I think that if you look at it and look hard at where you can cut That's one of the areas that you need to look at you know You need to look at how you can manage the money that you do have Manage it more wisely and get more services out of that Not looking at how to finagle how to get an additional tax next thing you know We're going to be taxed on the air. Are we going to have an air utility and now we're going to be paying for air Basically, that's what it is. We're paying for the water now You know, this is some of the things that it's so frustrating for taxpayers that Everywhere you look we're being taxed We're being taxed when we fill up our car for gas. We're being taxed when we go and buy Tyres we're being taxed when we go and buy something at the grocery store These are all the things that we have hidden taxes and what you're looking at doing is creating more hidden taxes for the general public So that they will pay more and if it if history proves itself is that a tax is never Eliminated all you do is just keep increasing increase and then you'll increase the property tax The the last thing I have to say is the gentleman said that if you were going to increase it on the property tax It would it would increase by $28 for a single household if you're looking at doing this the storm utility You're talking at $30 so that in itself is More tax than what you would have on your property tax bill Thank you. I think you Henry the next person on on our list of speakers is D. Olson It is the spice of life. They tell me Good evening Mayor Shramm and members of the council this past week I learned that the city is again considering establishment of a storm sewer utility district. I Realized that it was about 18 months to two years ago that the city was considering the same Type of measure at which time we spoke against that But this specific proposal was broader than the proposal currently before the council and it included the capital improvements as well and as we saw some examples tonight The costs on businesses the last time we looked at it it was double The amount and and Thomas industries would have been paying 14,000 For that same thing Having just been made aware that this new proposal has surfaced again the chamber has Not had time to take a closer look at the proposal and would appreciate the opportunity to work with the city If a new storm sewer utility is developed Neither my board nor any of our committees have addressed this so I'm not speaking on This is a position from the chamber as I can't do that being as they've not addressed that and Having just learned about it. It would be encumbering to try and call them all together As you may recall the chamber Did not support that previous proposal after hearing the potential cost for larger commercial properties that weighed in with annual fees of 30,000 for a facility the size of the Memorial Mall Having met with Tom Holton and Dave Bebel This past Friday it seems as though the new proposal will be Reduced in impact based on lesser cost per er use and it will not include the full range of capital improvement Projects Nonetheless, they were unable to answer all the questions relating to fees and the impacts they will have on businesses Although the chamber is very careful regarding any type of new tax or fee during a time when spending constraints tax reduction and Holding the line on any increase is the quest of the day. We recognize that Cheboygan has Faced stormwater sewer problems for several years now Thus we understand why the city feels the need to bring such a proposal Forward at this time in lieu of considerable budget restrictions the city faces The chamber feels the largest impact of this proposal will be felt by the Cheboygan County business community However, we do not feel it's fair to seek this proposal without consideration from the business community with regard to the fees To be assessed and the formula that will be used to assess those fees Would be our intent to make certain that they are fair and Equitable amongst the Cheboygan businesses that all contributors to the district are participating and the fees are not excessive but rather realistic Again, I was told the fee structure is not set. But boy. I'm hearing some pretty firm numbers tonight Which concerns me a little bit? It would also be prudent to review ordinances that may contribute to the storm sewer capacity Ordinances that require for example Mandatory parking lots So you force businesses to create permeable spaces perhaps some of that needs to be reviewed and taken a look at The chamber has been advised that action taken tonight by the Common Council would be to adopt Conceptually the establishment of a storm water sewer district But that the actual fee structure of the formulas for it remain open to consideration by the By the council if this is passed as stated the chamber would like to be involved in the development of the structure For the district its fees and the formulas We believe it would be fair to take the information once established back out to our chamber members By a few informational input sessions prior to formal council adoption We understand the utility is proposed to start April 1 2004 if it is to start April 1 it is likely you are desirous of getting it into the current budgeting process Given the need to act Quickly we still believe there is time to allow for our involvement as well as getting further information out to the business community I'm a firm believer that it is easier to garner support for an effort If those impacted fully understand the serious nature of our storm water problems and the related costs to address The need to maintain protect our community from storm water flooding that carries its own costs on business as well Our request tonight is not to encumber Moving forward with a district but rather to develop a district that is acceptable to the business community And I thank you for the opportunity to speak to you tonight. Thank you D The next person on the list is Ken Klein Good evening everyone. I appreciate this time that you've given us to talk. I Find it interesting that no one has brought up the fact yet that you're calling this a fee and that you're not calling it a tax And the reason why I say that is because as a as a member of a local 501c3 operation That all these tax exempt facilities Exist for the good of the people of this community And I'll give you an example. I'm not going to tell you the name of the church that I go to but I know that in recent history 10 to 15 maybe perhaps 20% of the congregation have been laid off and taken significant Decreases in their annual income and They've had to make major changes in their life. Some of them even have to change their houses and etc etc We all know this But what I'm saying is we come together and we help these people out financially medical costs Any cost of living we're there to help and I believe almost all 501c3 Organizations are there to help the people that are hurting in the community They do it out of love from their heart to help these people And my suggestion is and I appreciate it and I wish you would call this a tax and put it before the people as a referendum and I just want you to know That the body of Christ that I happen to belong to we pray for our government our local government our state government and our federal government We appreciate what you guys are doing for us, but we sure do want you to Not not just call this a fee and not put it as a tax. Just it's just not right We're there to help other people, especially the people that are hurting the most Thank you. I do what would like to say one other thing you talk about talk about how can you cut back? I Have a history as a master mechanic and heavy equipment. I can hear these diesel engines out here idling Okay, we got multi-ton vehicles out here that get somewhere between eight and maybe if you're lucky 11 miles per gallon If you got to do a set of brake jobs on one of these buses that's all they do is hit the brakes often on all Day long cost at least 10 if not 20 times more than if you had a One and a half ton vehicle out there that holds 15 people and now I understand that they have to be handicapped Accessible if we have people in the community who are handicapped and who do need that accessibility and public transportation I have I come from a community who practice who had one or two vans set aside and the people who were disabled that needed Transportation could make a phone call and that one and a half ton vehicle with that lift could take them somewhere But these guys I've lived in Sheboygan for 10 years after my military career. I Can't help but see us a bus driving around town with three people on it. I Mean that's that's an average thing that I see I've seen buses with one or two people on it all the time Why do we have multi-ton vehicles out here that are by the way the emissions are going to be jacked up on those guys, too And most buses are only going to become more and more expensive to keep those things running There's so many one-ton vehicles out there that hold 15 passengers on them And you don't have to have all that noise running out there You don't have all these diesel bills coming in and 10 20 times more for repair bills. So I thank you for your time I thank you, Mr. Klein And we have one more speaker tonight and that is Chief Mark Zier Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of committee to hold I'm here in two-fold one number one I'm the president of the wind point condominium association located out and wind point court around 40th in Maine We do have a claim against the city on a water storm water damage. It's been There for a few years that there's been no action on it The residents there especially one unit is very close to being eroded away I'm here to urge you to support some type of movement to To conclude monies so that these projects can go forth and 17 the national I know is our previous address is very close to that house I saw the flood there firsthand and I know that there's projects that have to be done Infrastructure in the city is very important It's my job as a fire chief. I have to tell you my last 31 years I have had unfortunate experience of helping people. I love to help people Unfortunate experience is helping people and floods and seeing the disaster they go through what they lose It's a city-wide problem. Everybody has to contribute. I believe it's a situation. It has to be addressed Monies are tight But then again, you're put in these situations to do best for the city Legislators and was in Madison don't have referendums on everything They have to vote you have to vote in the best interest of this community It takes big shoulders sometimes to make a decision that helps the city in the long run Yeah, times are tough, but that's when the tough get going and I urge you to support some type of Support for the water storm water. Thank you On that I would ask Rich rich get part. Do you have anything to add? I? Just already reflect what a lot of what mark has said there You have to really be concerned about able to provide the services to the community You know, I guess from my standpoint I see you know what is happening there in Madison was being coming down to all the communities. I have a real concern about the Standard of living the environment that will have years from now in Wisconsin. I Think the stormwater control is is a real meaningful situation For everyone throughout Wisconsin and you can see that in the list of the others communities that have already have enacted this A lot of those communities that have enacted it are growing communities through the Fox Valley in those areas it's a it's a plus for economic development and I guess I would just really be concerned about as I mentioned earlier to you is about what the Revenues will be whether we'll have you know any solid funding for these services in the future under our future physical problems So I urge you to give a consideration Well, thank you rich In that time if the council has anything they'd like to say now it'd be a good time Alderman graph Mr. Chairman at this time. I'd like to recommend that RC Alderman graph Prior to that it if the council has anything they'd like to say or you want to make the motion Go right ahead I'd like to Make a motion that are the RC To be accepted and adopted and we send it to council with a favorable report I have a motion in a second under discussion Alderman Doyle, thank you Alderman Warner. I wish to make two points about the stormwater fee First is the stormwater fee will make our community less attractive as a place to live and work The elderly and the poor cannot afford to pay the stormwater fee on top of the high real estate taxes that they already pay Our citizens need tax relief Some common council members claim that our residents are willing to Pay high taxes in return for the services that they're getting and I don't get that feedback I get the feedback that they're saying it's time to cut and Local business and industry do not want or need more fees and taxes I've lived here for 20 years in Sheboygan and not one major employer has moved to Sheboygan during that time The only reason we seem to be thriving is because our major Privately owned businesses have done well in the last two decades These businesses are owned by the collars beameth muth brats and others who are loyal to this area It's my feeling that if one of these factories would close or move we would not be able to replace it We especially don't want to force factories to move overseas because of the high taxes here In my estimation Sheboygan is not economically competitive And this stormwater fee will make us even less attractive to new homeowners businesses and industries The second point I'd like to make is that the stormwater fee will not solve our financial crisis The common council leadership would like to avoid layoffs and maintain services. I don't think that's realistic I think it's basic economics The city has three sources of revenue and we have three sources of expenses If we look at it from a general point of view Everyone knows that these have to balance out Now if we look at the expense side of the city budget It's made up of the new purchases for supplies and maintenance is one the wages paid to employees and the benefits In every year in our economy those go up Now if you look at the revenue side the city has to work with We have the property taxes, which we do increase every year. We have the licenses permits fees Those are irregular. We can't increase those every year. The third source of revenue is the state And that tends to be stable or now it's going down Now if you look at Sheboygan economic history the three expenses have always gone up For equipment and supplies the wages and the benefits so there's always pressure on the expense side And what's happened over the years is whenever the city has an economic crisis employees are cut And if you I'm sure I don't have accurate statistics But if you look at the fire department the police department public works and go back 30 years I'm willing to bet that there were a lot more employees in those days and there are now Because the employees are getting more and more expensive now two years ago on the expense side The health benefits went out of sight. They went up by a million dollars So the city had to look at what on earth are we going to do to solve that financial crisis? So we raised property taxes we raised every permit and fee that we could But the state thing stayed the same we even on the expense side had to control spending for supplies And equipment in order to balance that you're out Now this year we have another new crisis, but it's the same old crisis The employee wages have gone up equipment supplies have gone up the benefits have gone up big time again 15-20% Now you look at the revenues. We're going to raise real estate taxes 2% Okay, the permits and fees we just raised two years ago. So we really can't raise them again This time the state revenues going down So what happens the expenses are up here and the revenues are down here So our three traditional sources of revenue are gone. So what are we going to do? Well, we have to start creating new taxes So we create a stormwater fee that will generate a million and a half that still won't close the gap We're going to have to put in other Fees and other taxes to bring it up so we can get through the year Well, if we do the stormwater fee will that solve the problem? No, it won't because next year The employees will want to raise again the health benefits are predicted to go up 10 to 15 percent again The cost of supplies and equipment are going to go up again. What's going to happen on the revenue side? It's predicted if unless I've heard wrong that the state's going to cut it again They're going to cut our revenues again. So it's going to go down. We're going to have the same thing all over again So what are we going to do? Are we going to invent new fees charge? 20% increase in real estate taxes. No, we're in the corner The only thing we can do is to cut the expense side and as much as people hate to do it There's going to have to be layoffs. Thank you. Thank you all the men go All the men press Thank you, mr. Chairman last Monday, I made a motion that we That we hold a public session for people to give us input. I guess at that time I wasn't aware that the council was going to try to rush through and vote on it tonight after this public hearing I Feel a little bit uncomfortable with that. Although I'm not going to make it an issue I feel a little bit uncomfortable because I don't think that we If we've done enough to to solicit input from the community I know the press has tried very hard to put to put it out there, but Even talking to people some people don't even read the paper. So they don't know Understand that some of the business people haven't had an ample opportunity to provide input either So overall we have a we have a picture That that is short of it falls very short of having the the amount of public input that it merits And we have a monumental project Being a run-through It's such a short period of time to my amazement that we're doing that In that respect, I hope that this council vote this about this thing down. I think you're all impressed Anyone else on the floor? Me if you want to follow me or I've got I've got just something to say that I've prepared and I Guess first I'm glad we had this meeting tonight And I'd like to thank everyone for attending and sharing your thoughts and concerns with us But thanks to did Tom and Dave for the presentation and to the mayor and all the persons for being here tonight And for the public for giving us some of their input Yes, I do not think that there are any among us that has not thought long and hard about this issue That is our job as a council To weigh the issues that come before us Study the details and make an informed decision We do that so we can make a decision that is in the best interest of the city Not just a portion or a particular area, but the best interest of the city as a whole I have come to the conclusion that the establishment of a storm water Management fee system is in the best interest of the city of Sheboygan We need a way to address one of the very core services cities provide to protect and enhance the lives of their people business and institutions Our water department utility provides safe Water for our consumption The regional wastewater treatment plant removes our sewage and treats it to protect us and the environment These two utilities are run very efficiently at the lowest cost possible to provide reliable service to the community We need to do the same with storm water runoff to protect our homes our Businesses our institutions from costly and destructive floodwaters. That's what this is about Again Sheboygan has a very effective water system a very effective wastewater system It's time. We bring storm water management to the same level as drinking water and wastewater in How we provide the service? We are all concerned about the cost of government and the services it provides and we should be We also have a responsibility to try and prepare our city for the future in the decisions. We make today Each year in August and September our capital improvements commission meets to decide what projects and needs its annual $1 billion in borrowing will provide Since the flood of 98 the lion's share of that borrowing has gone to repair our storm water system leaving project after project in need after need unfilled Unfunded It's worked out okay for the seventh district My district we have the second Creek pond and huge new storm water sewer system installed installed It's working very well. We have hundreds of mini sewers The bluff Avenue project has just been completed The destroyed homes on Camelot Boulevard have been purchased along with other work in that area But we still have South 17th Street in Ashland to contend with as well as many other areas of the city. I Believe it is time. We stop borrowing each and every year for these projects Borrowed money. We have to pay back with interest year after year after year millions and millions of dollars thus far I think this program will help us to stop borrowing for storm water Maybe not right away, but as it moves along and at that same time allow us to address Or many other infrastructure needs that the capital improvements program was meant to address Just last week at the strategic fiscal planning meeting the committee passed a document to be forwarded to the Common Council Asking to limit our capital improvements borrowing for 2004 to 1.5 million dollars Half of what we normally borrow why to help lower our debt service costs It should be made known that although this fee would be an added cost to the people in the city We are addressing other budget issues cutting spending in all areas Looking for efficiencies and savings everywhere Including working with city employees and departments to lower costs It is currently projected that the city of Sheboyan's equalized tax rate will likely go down in 2004 And that shows that the many hours. We are spending looking at costs is paying off over the weekend while visiting my mother The possibility of a stormwater management fee came up my mom lives on a fixed income and she was not happy about this at all And she asked me why and wanted an explanation And this is what I said. I said mom right now you are paying for this through your property taxes In fact, you as a homeowner are paying for 70% of the cost related to stormwater But you as an average homeowner Only contribute to 44% of the problem That's an important distinction. I told her that the only other group in the city that pays is the business community They pay 30% of the cost of our stormwater management while contributing Along with all properties that pay no property taxes including the city To 56% of the stormwater problem So residents pay 70% of the cost while creating 44% of the problem and businesses pay 30% of the cost While creating 56% of the problem and that also includes all those who pay nothing because they don't pay property taxes So the residents and the businesses are getting the short end of the stick and it's not a fair system I then explained under this proposal mom everyone would pay their fair share every property in the city pays Not just homeowners not just business She asked about churches hospitals and others and I said yes They will also pay as well as the city of Sheboygan itself. I Said it would be just like the water and sewer bills, which everyone pays now My mom agreed it was fair She also said if she had known these details, she would have felt a little different about it She still does not like the extra cost But knows it's necessary And I feel the same way. I don't like the cost, but I believe it's necessary necessary not only for next year But for the future of the city Thank you On that Meershram Thank you. Mr. Chairman A couple things I heard this evening. I don't know if I need to stand a couple things I heard this evening is Why we need a stormwater fee or stormwater tax? Let me tell you I don't know how many of you around in 1998 when we had the flood and walked 814 homes and Hit every home in the flooded basements the people crying help me help me help me What can you do for me mayor? What can you do for me public works department? What can you do for me? Mr. Fireman the governor was out here with us walking and It was a sad situation We have to keep our stormwater program together and moving forward We have 17th and Ashland 15th of New York Camelot Boulevard 12th and Parkwood our industrial area We need a store strong stormwater management program Yes, and the money should go for that the monies should go for a stormwater management city and help our Residents and our businesses and I heard this gentleman back here thing It's another tax or why don't you just put on our taxes? Well if you tax Not everybody pays taxes in the city Not everybody pays taxes in the city that will work. Well for some businesses, but not everyone So that that isn't equal either as Leaders of this city. We also have to be sensitive to our residents And our business leaders you heard the Olson tonight She spoke about that. What's the rate going to be it's kind of two sixty five three dollars whatever We do have to be sensitive and to our residents We have to make sure when we put a rate in place that there is a lot of discussion about their rate I think the program has to go in place We have to get that in place, but we may have to have another public input session on the rates We have to get the business community in here We have to get a residence in here and let them know what that rates going to be be very fair with them The other thing I heard tonight and disturb me a little bit is it was brought up that we're ranked 12th in a nation And that was brought up last week, too Well, we did some checking according and this was brought up American cities business journal Analysts from US Census Bureau. New York was rated number one Well, we called them and asked them to check it out. They couldn't find anything This is what they sent us back. The city of New York is ranked number one in a nation in taxes But Sheboygan is not number 12 Syracuse is Number 12 11 was Albany Coming from them. So I just want to make that clear And if anyone has any information on that other ranking that I heard tonight, please bring it forward I like to see that Alderman Doyle made a point about Businesses and being sensitive to our businesses. Well Alderman Doyle and the rest of the council Expansion management magazine Rate us out of 329 metropolitan statistical areas Out of the United States and we ranked in a top 50. Why? We also got a word for that. Why? Because how would you like to move your business the best place to move your business and work is based upon a reasonable cost of living affordable housing low crime excellent transportation good public schools proximity to colleges and universities and excellent educated workforce low taxes And that's what they're looking for and we were ranked in a top 50 out of 329. I think that tells you a lot about Sheboygan We aren't taxing our people out of the state. The other thing is we picked up Wisconsin taxpayers Out of 190 cities on a net tax race on a net tax rate Sheboygan comes in at 99 not at number one not at number 12. They come in 99 So I think we're doing our job in a storm water Feet or tax is needed to keep our program moving forward to getting our work done But yes, we do have to be sensitive again to our citizens and our business people before we set the rate on that We do need some discussion on that yet And maybe we need to sit down here again with another public here and then a committee whole meeting before we do that Thank you. Well, thank you, Mr. Mayor, and I would be fine with that. I guess I want to make one thing clear I know on the on the agenda and this agenda did get out Right away almost immediately after we had our last council meeting It says action on rate and document while the rate part is not there. It's action on the document Which is creation of the storm water Fee system period with no rates involved. I see all of them in Montemay or Thank You, Mr. Chairman That it seems very fair I think Dave Bebo did a good job of telling us and showing us how it is very fair for every Building in Sheboygan to pay Through this utility however, is That portion that previously came from the general as real estate tax bill going to be removed or Are we just going to continue paying the same amount as we paid for storm sewer? Care before and then also pay for the new utility. I Would ask all of them in graph. Do you have a pin? You know that I? All I can tell you is that it's up to this council what they want to do there will be If this gets approved and whatever the rate may may turn up to be The council has to decide what they're willing to eliminate and What they're willing to move to other areas if they decide that that 1.5 million dollars comes out of the if it's the capital improvements budget or the operating budget of Public works it will come out, but you have to vote to do that So that's all I can tell you right now and it's up to us to hold the line and make tough decisions Which is a start tonight? Thank you all man drop hold them in door Yes, I don't like to speak a second time typically, but I can't let this go by the the message is being given to this council and to the public that this stormwater fee is going to Correct the problems at Ashland and at these other places around town where flooding has occurred that this money is going to be Used to correct those problems It isn't this money is going to be used for administration permit mandates storm sewer maintenance streets sweeping and cleaning It's going to generate according to this sheet in the first year $176,000 towards capital improvement, which would be Ashland and Something at the way I see it That's about 30 years of stormwater maintenance fees before we would have enough To repair the Ashland thing in order to repair Ashland or any other thing You're going to have to raise the stormwater fee to at least 450 or $5 of per month I think all the Mendoza I'd like to have Tom respond to that We had a lot of discussion on setting that fee and we would have hoped to have a higher fee to cover more the capital projects You can take care of the 17th and Ashlands We'd been out there in that flood of 98 and the flood in 99 We're out there in this last rain. We had a couple weeks. So making sure they were okay Once you establish revenue stream through this utility, you can do revenue bonding to help with the larger projects That's very important. I think that will go a long ways for these people at 17th and Ashland 12th and Parkwood Camel up all of our 21st and same and we have probably 11 12 13 million dollars in projects. We have to take care of yet. Nobody wants to be flooded We can't these projects don't drop out of the sky. It takes time to design them and to fund them today. We've probably spent 10 million dollars on certain areas, but we don't have that money coming in anymore through the capital improvements program Things are tight. We know that Solomon van der wheelie. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a question for Tom If we pass this proposal How quickly will those areas be fixed? Just on a guess 10 years 15 years. I Think rich might be able to answer that better we asked them that question and staff, but I think we'd have to have at that 180 thousand dollars probably Three four years of that revenue coming in to before it could go out For a revenue bond say it's five that's five million dollars for a 17th fashion right now is what the estimate is If it stayed at about 180,000 a year in all the future years You could only borrow probably about one and a half million That'd be a 20 year bond And that's all that that would support in order to get up to You know a five million dollar issue you would have to be over probably half million dollars a year Capital projects for debt service So you're probably looking at the rate of three seventy five towards four dollars to be able to support that level projects on that Mayor SRAM on that I think we're ready for vote So Mike I Think this vote is to accept and adopt that document correct Bowman Berg Bonnet Doyle Graf Manny Montemare Moody Perez Rindflash Stefan Ben Akron Vander wheelie Wangaman Warner for Noah's 11 yes, I Don't know for honor not love the mirror and I'll set the call for me Call the meeting to order Pat. Would you call the roll please? Yeah graph Manny here mind a man here moody Perez Rindflash Stefan Vander wheel Winninger Corms present excuse me excuse excuse Okay Alderman got Thank you, your honor. I move that the RC be accepted and filed and that the Excuse me accept and adopted and the substitute general ordinance be put upon its passage move the second at the Communication be accepted committee report be accepted and adopted in a substitute ordinance be put upon this passage under discussion You know what you call the roll please? Moody Perez Rindflash Stefan I'm sorry. I make some corrections Ben Akron Vander wheel Wonderman Warner Bowman 11 eyes Motion carry nest the same boat that came from committee to hold just a few minutes ago, so Moving to secondary adjourn under discussion hearing none all a favor