 And transcript. There we go. So this is the first Marley call on Monday, April 17, 2023. Anybody want to check in? Can we do just a light round of check-ins to see where we are and what's up? Anybody want to step in? I'll go. Thanks. I ended up kind of stumbling into what seems like it might be a collaboration with Marley. I don't know exactly. Maybe a different way to say it is a, if Marley is a bookshelf, then it's a book on a bookshelf or a set of books maybe. It's a collection of business process patterns. So take 80 or 100 business processes and express them in little recipe card form. Not quite as a pattern language yet, but it might grow into that. So Jerry and I were talking Friday about stuff in general, and it seems like that project makes it good. It's got a lot of the same components that any of the Marley projects have. An editorial team, an authoring team, massive wiki publication. So it seems like it makes sense to use that as a, it's its own project, but it also interrelates with the other projects that Marley has. Since Jerry. Do you want to explain a tiny bit about just to shine a flashlight on a pattern like what it feels like or something so that whoever's not caught up with that. Sure. I think it sticks in, it sticks readily to memory once you've seen an example. So to give a little bit more context, there's a thing called a pattern language. The original pattern language was written by Christopher Alexander and a bunch of folks and an architect in the 70s, who I, it's a lot like a quick book. You have a recipe cards, kind of, they're a little bit longer in the in the Christopher Alexander pattern language. One of the important things when he calls it a pattern language, the, there's a whole structure to it. So it's not just a set of patterns, it's also the, there's patterns at large scale and smaller scale and there's interrelationships between patterns. So let me. Let me find the right thing here. Sorry for having way too many things. I don't know how you find your way around your desktop. So this is, these are patterns over here on the left various patterns, and then each, each pattern card has got. The image right now just as an image description, not the image itself. And then kind of a problem statement and the context statement then a solution statement. Let me also show what I think is a really good example of pattern language. It's called the, this is a group, a set of group facilitators came together and kind of delta pattern. And this is, you can look at these different ways. One of the clever things that they did was they actually made physical cards. So you can see that there's a pattern title, a link, an image. They call this the heart, what was in my thing a solution. They've also got categories, I don't have categories in the business processes yet and then related patterns. So this is actually a pretty good example of a pattern, pattern language, and it's a comes in a deck of 100 cards. It's also you can download a PDF and things like that. So this has got the related patterns as well. So working on stitching this together, making, you know, making a website, making a, maybe an ePub a Kindle something a PDF to download on on Gumroad, you know that kind of stuff. So it's got a lot of the same kind of stuff that we've been talking about for any Marley project. It happens to be about business processes, business patterns, but I'm actually thinking of it as an example of setting up a set of patterns like this. You could do the same thing for sustainable agriculture or social justice or etc etc. So it's not just doing business process. Many of us have had a desire to do a better job of creating a set of patterns and then turning it into a pattern language as the editorial board kind of makes it make more sense together. So this is, I kind of accidentally got far ahead on this this particular business process thing and want to keep going. I'm really briefly to elaborate on what Pete said, and this kind of started from a conversation we were both in where Pete took the first chunk of frameworks that were in this thought in my brain exported them and he sent them off to chat APT and said hey chat APT. Here's the list how would you complete this list, and then, hey, could you turn each of the frameworks and mental models into a short pattern like description, which it did, like happily, and then like the light bulb started going off with Pete and then with like me and so forth. I think this would make a great reference of some sort. And I think what Pete says it's almost a pattern language. It's not it's sort of more of a reference work written in pattern style than a pattern language but you can easily see that what this creates could become components of a pattern language over time. And then I'm realizing from your description right now Pete that this you've named it or focused it more on business patterns than I thought, because I thought it was more about frameworks in general. And I could be wrong. Yeah. Yeah. The original name and you might have seen it on the city in there is strategy management strategy and management frameworks. Strategy and management implementation frameworks. I don't know. I think, as the title gets you want a shorter title and business process is pretty close to what it is that's correct my my current thing. I like the idea of strategy frameworks at just as well. So, since we talked to you I have another kind of like turn of the wheel, which I think, which I also want to talk to Marley about. I've been. So, there's a there's a guy David Boval that I wonder if it's me. David Boval I and some other folks have been working together on and off for a long time. He's got a framework for doing his current project is called mapping the future. Map of the future world I think it's much the same thing that that we talk about in the OGM circles and kind of the related circles. The interesting thing about his project is that if I look at it the right way if I squint my eyes and look the right way he's describing something that's a lot like Marley where you you established kind of a framework for people that need to get ideas out into the world. To come together to author the information resources and then do publication. David adds a bunch of other stuff which might work well for the Marley things. He adds a very strong connection to art and music and physical in person events. The stage and theater background. And on top of that, what's really interesting to me is he thinks of each of each each book. He thinks of as a project or a little organization, a little organization with project plan and internal commitments and external commitments. And then when he puts each of these projects together. He imagines them having cross fertilization and cross execution between them all. So I apologize here's where it's going to get weird and I'm going to jargony talk jargony and you're going to get turned off but but listen to this gently and thoughtfully and open mindedly. Does it have to do with any human organs or something worse actually has to do any. Oh, okay. He sees each of these projects. And David does a much better job or maybe I'm going to do a poor job of it David does a better job of it. It's a, it's a thing where you have to talk very gently and carefully and thoughtfully. It's because as soon as you talk about money, or as soon as you talk about dows. You know, like a bunch of like shutters start turning off in people's minds. I don't want to talk about money I don't want to talk about dows I don't want to talk about yada yada right. So each project having, you can call it a project you could call it a Dow Dow stands for distributor autonomous. Distributed decentralized decentralized autonomous organization Stacey Stacey. He imagined each each he imagines each of the dows having internally a a three way balance. Mutual credit balance between the partners. A equity non sorry that's the wrong one. Mutual credit fiat and crypto I guess are the three balances. Along with the three balances. There's an equity component built around slicing pie or, or there's another name for it. The idea is, say you're a web designer, and you want to help this project and this project and this project and this project or vice versa. You've got this amazing idea, business process patterns is going to change the world and everybody's going to be able to like do better stuff because they have a simple you know I just want this out in the world, but I need a web designer. What you need there is for the web designer to be able to work with multiple projects you want to the web designer to be the each project lead to be able to find a web designer. You want kind of an over overarching. Directory of people willing to work together. Sometimes for Sometimes for mutual credit. Sometimes for crypto sometimes for fiat. If they're working on something a lot, you want to be able to slice the pie with them you want to have them build equity in this thing right. And David, it's, it's really hard to think about this stuff without kind of a lot of baggage from our capitalist society. So, he hit a couple really thoughtful points for me one of them is that when you know we think of equity is like oh great I'm going to make a million dollars in the start in startup, you know equity. Don't think of it that way, but think of it in having more say over the project right somebody who's got 40% equity in, you know, the sustainable agriculture. Now it could also be just project. Somebody who's got 40% equity in it because they've worked a lot on it gets a lot of say about what it's going to do and how it's going to do it and things like that right, which in the capitalist society is like well why would I want that all I want is to be able to cash out. To leave the capitalist society, you know, I want a lot of say about my baby I spent a lot of time working on this project and you know it means a lot to me and so yeah I'm going to take my 40% and, and, you know, talk about how what I, what I see for what I, and, and if I need to bring somebody in a partner. Maybe it makes sense for me to cut my percentage down to 20% or 15% and share some of that equity with them right. Kind of the same thing with mutual credit. Mutual credit, the way David sees it is not something that you would ever even be able to exchange for fiat. It's something that recognizes, you know, recognizes contribution and, and the ability to do a little bit of trade, kind of our per hour trade with somebody else to hire a web designer for instance. You know, hey, I can't pay you any fiat, but I could pay you a mutual credit in my project and then, you know, then as that artist accumulates mutual credit in different projects they might be able to kind of trade that for other mutual credit, and then spend it on, I need server software or I need, you know, whatever. I need a business plan. I need mentorship. Um, so another interesting thing David said he's already got people who are talking with him about joining the project that he's got map of match of the future world. Somebody said something really interesting it's like, I'll tell you what, what I can do is the. This was for software developer or something like that. I'll tell you what, I, I do want to get a little bit of fiat out of this project, but I can cut my regular rate down to one 10th. And then David says that's great because then I can afford you and David says I'll tell you what let's make up the difference in in half mutual credit and half equity, right, or 75% mutual credit and 25% equity. So I like the idea of saying, um, you know, I, those of us who've done consulting, you know, it's like, oh yeah, you have a nonprofit rate yeah I have a nonprofit rate you know I can work for 60%. And then to get nothing else. I like the idea of slicing it a little bit more finely and talking about, you know, there's, there's different ways that we can kind of balance things and all work together for benefit while kind of recognizing the, the different solutions we're making. So anyway, this, going into that conversation with David, I had already thought about dynamic equity is the other name for slicing pie, I had already thought about the business process patterns or strategy management frameworks patterns project as needing it like an editorial board and some hands and feet to do things and it's like, well, I want to. So, so immediately kind of the equity thing and the slicing pie thing made a lot of sense for involving other people in that because I it's like a little baby that you know I started and I'm, I'm proud of it and I want to see how it develops and, and not just kind of like throw it. Some of the other projects I've got I've kind of just thrown over the wall into into the public sphere right everything is CC by, you know, here. Here's some work that I've done, and it doesn't end up having a life because nobody cares to contribute to it, partly because they don't either. I don't know how they would contribute to it and have me feel like they're, you know, how, how they would value my contributions and how I would value their contributions. If we start having that framework, then there's a lot of stuff that's kind of already predefined about how I might work together and how it makes sense to work together. Having said that, I've just described a lot of overhead on any project, it's like, oh, wow, we get to, you know, these three different balances and we got the slicing pie and everybody's keeping count and track. Another thing that David said I thought was brilliant is like, for most people, this is going to be invisible. So the challenge of the infrastructure people, people like David and me trying to figure out how all this stuff works is to make it so that. Hey, I drop into a meeting once in a while and you know, and oh look, later on I realize I've got mutual credit in this in this project, or I've got a little bit of equity or I've got. You know, I earned a little bit of money because the project, you know, got some money off the sale of decks of cards and we distributed per Rata over the equity holders or whatever right. So the idea isn't to start with all the machinery first. The idea is to start working together. And reference the speed of trust a book start working together, have this kind of in the background as a way that we think we're going to be continuing to build up the way that people implement stuff together. And so this is kind of to come back around to Marley this is kind of, you know, I think we, we had some of the same ideas as we came together, thinking about Marley, you know, how do we get OGM to actually produce work output. How do we structure projects so they get done. How do we share credit. How do we do things like that. So I like where this is going. I have a little bit of trepidation. The business process patterns I'll keep calling it that for handy name. Already it's, it's kind of a experiment in the experiment in my personal domain. It's an experiment in the OGM domain. Now it's also an experiment in David's domain with this three balances and equity and stuff like that. And I think it's probably if Jordan does okay, I think it's, it could very well be an experiment in the Lionsburg domain to all of these people, you know, we've all been talking about how do we, how do we have a directory of people willing to work together. How do we arrange ourselves working together. How do we actually get stuff done. So, so I'm excited to see it all happening I'm a little worried about, you know, different frameworks and different people and, you know, kind of trepidation about trying something new with a whole another set of folks but I have faith it's going to work out I guess. So I'm sorry that was a little bit longer than the check in but. Anyone else want to check in. Go ahead. Okay, thanks. I'm going to build on a quick pause. I also needed to just jot something down real quick. Thank you. That was a treat to listen to and allowed that was new to me. I appreciate you explaining can I repeat some piece of that back to you just to make sure I'm understanding correctly so. Oh, was it. So it sounds like when we were talking about mutual credit. This is going to be a crude way of and very oversimplified but just to make sure I'm kind of getting the gist is it. It kind of sounds like you're suggesting the sweat, what some would call sweat equity or the work one puts in behind the scenes on a project we in this framework in this model we create. That takes on its own value and becomes a token, a token of source that we can trade in in much the same way we would trade fiat currency or crypto. Yeah, that's close. Yeah. In our circles, we have a few people that are much high. Well, the, the, the general idea has always made sense to me and there's there are time time banks and there's the most famous one is maybe Ithaca hours where. In, in Ithaca, New York, they had a system community currency system where, you know, you could spend $5 in community currency at the grocery store actually. Some of them are denominated in hours. And then you, you have, you have the weird situation where it's like, well, I think my hours are worth more than your hours or vice versa. There's also another thing, which I haven't heard David cover. But if I've made, you know, if, if a web designer has mutual credit from a bunch of different projects, how does she spend that on her project. I think there's a bunch of stuff to figure out. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of work in a couple different layers over probably two or three decades. And we have one of the world leaders and all that stuff is Michael Linton and he's part of our kind of extended community. So, I think, I think the, and you can kind of get more heavyweight and less heavyweight. There's some financial tricks you can do where you can incentivize people not to hold their dollars but to keep them moving. It gets really technical really fast. I think David's thinking something pretty simple to start. But yeah, you got the idea. Cool. Thanks. I'll defer check in but I would love to hear. Thanks to your I'm seeing that in the chat. Appreciate if you don't use them. I would love to miss last week and I don't know where the replay videos or audio of these sessions live so I'd love to be pointed that direction if someone can assist me there. Would someone be willing to share a little bit about what I think you what was missed last week what I missed last week it sounds like there's a name for this project and I would just love to hear anything. And as short and quick as you are able just kind of anything you feel like would help me understand where we're at and what I missed last week. Thanks Patty. So, we've kind of repurposed the sense doing calls on Monday around Pete's challenge to hey, let's write a book let's write an edited volume. So that's the start of this. And this felt like a sense doing kind of thing because there will be artifacts coming out of it. So sort of what's happened on Monday, and then we needed a project name and we were trying to think of really descriptive project names and then Pete says sometimes you just need project name and Stacy just had to put her lovely dog to sleep. Last week. And so her dog's name was Marley. And it occurred to us to like use that as the name for the project so that's what it is it's now project Marley and I just I just renamed the matter most channel. And so we're referring to it that way. And it is the project to write one or hopefully multiple edited volumes or books. And Pete just described kind of a, an AGI, sorry, a chat GPT generated and human edited volume, what that would be like a reference work, and that is easy to picture as a published E Pub or Kindle book that that's not really not hard to imagine. And then that could be the starting point for a whole bunch of other interesting things. Klaus has a whole series of resources on water regenerative agriculture etc etc there's, there's a there's a pony and a book in there somewhere. And so we're sort of looking for champions of books. And here, I'll just step back for just a second explain a little bit more here we're looking at books as kind of attractive souvenir objects, but not the whole story, meaning people know what books are books are cultural artifacts when you write a book you have certain amount of cred, like there's a whole bunch of people right now writing books almost like calling cards or websites. And so we're trying to attract business. Fine, no, no problem. But the book is a static snapshot of thinking that happened at some moment in time and what's more interesting is the communities, and the ideas and the resources around all these things. So a piece of what Pete didn't describe from our conversation just for lack of time was that each of the patterns around a particular thinking framework, we could try to crowdsource people who have a lot of experience using that particular and enrich the pattern at resources and links and basically make each pattern, get better over time so so each each of the components improve over time and that it could be that that the fifth edition of this book is far richer and more interesting than the first edition the first edition was a was a draft pass through the materials with some automation and light editing, but the fifth one actually 20% of the of the entries were actually made better. So it's kind of the, there's a there's like a book in context in motion sort of idea behind this, and it happens to have the project name Marley. The help. Beautiful Jerry thank you. Thanks. And anything anybody else would like to add to that, or would anyone else like to check in. And sort of piggyback on what you were just saying. So in a, in a nutshell, duck is missing today because he's in busy Monday night like I think right this is this is son. So he'd be gone for a couple weeks but that was this book garden world and garden world we said is a destination, it's a place where you want to be at some point in time. Well, what is needed this is a way to get there to turn the journey, not to go from here to there from here to garden world. And so we focused on can we write a story about this journey that will take us to where we are today, who got involved. And garden world being a descriptor of a world that has adapted itself to mitigate a change in climate and to adapt to living, you know, in a change world which we will experience in our lifetimes. So that's, that's in a nutshell, you know where we were with this particular topic. So in the meantime, I posted now some some things on the server here, but also what what I'm interested to do on a parallel note is to develop a conversation with market participants in the food business. So we were interested to change and adapt into a regenerative food system. And now I've been doing this for for many years and we have pretty much focused on the farmer, until now to make sure farmers understand the needs to recover their soil because over 40% of soils in the US have been lost already. Depleted of carbon depleted of soil microorganisms, not causing major damage to biases biodiversity. And to water water sheds 50% of us water sheds are too polluted to be used for recreation or fishing. What we are now recognizing is that while farmers are beginning to really dig into this and understand particularly family farmers who own their own land. And realize that they're losing their generational assets here, nothing to pass forward. If they don't fix their land and once the soil is gone, there's nothing to pass on. They are now having difficulty accessing markets because in order to change in order to repair the soil and water sheds, they have to change the types of crops they're using they have to change out seats. They have to rotate crops they have to use cover crops. And with that, there is no, no readily available market because the industry has specialized in the use of commodity crops that are being grown with GMO seeds and with the utilization of utility of chemicals, chemical fertilizers, phosphate and so on and so on. So now the challenge is how do we get into markets well that means we have to first of all find willing retailers, prepare to change their menus change their recipes. We have to find aggregators processes logistics and so on. Gene Ballinger and I have sort of have discussed collaborating on this and developing discussion groups with people that we are aligned with and I just had a meeting this morning with my partner from and he has some solutions CSS nacho Joel, who is a retired CEO of a biofuel company and he is in the biofuel and bio section of agriculture that we would be interested to develop a workshop that that is hosting a platform for organizations to bring different market participants together and have them start discussing how they can cooperate and how they can partner and what's missing and what are the tools out there that are available in one section but not known in another section of the economy, software, you know, knowledge tools, specialty seeds and so on and so on. And so that would be that could be a parallel project now so we could have this gotten world and in the the past to gotten world run on one track where we are developing metal level thoughts, metal level understanding, and then and then use that also in the parallel discussions that we are developing and then for those, we would need help to develop communication tools, slap channels tracking of conversations that spin out because the idea is that if in the general conversation, we have a group of aggregators who want to take a deep dive into their particular topic. That we would then facilitate this also with specialists that can that can assist in the set sense. So we are well connected in the industry, you know, we have a lot of access to people who are deeply engaged already but highly specialized and in many ways not connected in a system sense. So that's sort of in a in a nutshell, my check in here. Thank you class very much. I love all these things sort of fit. And we now need to organize a bit more than I think put out the word some and see who wants to show up to take different parts of this under the under their care in different ways. Stuart Stacy, want to check in. So, so quickly. From most of this year, I'll be in and out. I just got a ton of travel. That that being said, I think this, you know, has the potential to be a very important project. As I start to think about, you know, multiple subject areas that could be used once a structure is designed. One of the things that I was a little concerned about listening to Pete is that in the in the background, in terms of structure in terms of contribution. I'm still hearing the strong presence of a traditional economic model of contribution and and compensation. And there's a way in which that concerns me a little. Because as we talked about a number of times we've all, I think, come to the realization that the capitalist model is, you know, what's driving the bus over the cliff. And so, you know, I don't have an alternative to propose. I wish I did. But I think that that may be an important area of inquiry in terms of how we design and structure this. And I think that's my that's that's my that's my check in. Thanks Stuart and you've done more travel than most humans I know through pandemic over the last period I love following your trail on Facebook. So it does not surprise me that you are out and about more, but also you're consistently here with us which I really appreciate amid all your travels so thank you. Do you want to explain how how the model you were talking about might be different from traditional. I can talk around that yeah I totally agree Stuart the the for each of us for all of us. We're both wanting to share, share and share alike, and we're embedded in capitalist society where you have to pay rent and you have to, you know, you have to buy some of your food maybe you don't buy all of your food, or you have to buy, you know, supplies. The So, listening to David tell the story he might have flourished better around the parts where the the idea is heart and and passion and collaboration and sharing love. It's more than you know all the bullshit we get from capitalism. It's, it's a, let me back up I so David might explain it better you might not actually I you know it's it's a conundrum it's a it's a conflict it's a place where we have to live in in both worlds. The big thing for me is the David talked a lot about, you know, talking about the speed of trust for instance, you know, it's not something you hear in capitalist society it's like, I don't care about trust all I care is about is you know whether I'm getting paid or not. Moving into more collaborative, you know, co, coordinating, collaborating cooperative thing, you still kind of need to keep track of stuff. And it can be a lightweight thing it doesn't have to be every way thing it doesn't have to be exact to be qualitative. The thing that I'm jazzed about is that right now we end up in either or, you know, either you're working for the man, or the, you know, or you're the man and you've got a bunch of people working for you. You've got that, or you've got. It's all like, lovey dovey free, you know, I don't want to take your money because I'm doing this for love kind of thing. We have this imbalance, and we have a lot of projects where people can't plug themselves in, because the project itself doesn't have doesn't answer those questions for you, you know, if I chip in, what do I get out of it, and I'm not talking about I do not need, you know, I don't I don't need $5 an hour $50 an hour $500 an hour. That's not what I'm looking for. What do I get out of working with y'all, you know, what do you expect from me, you know, if somebody says, if you work a little bit of my project, I'll work a little bit on your project or even better if you work a little bit of my project. I'll give you, you know, some mutual credit balance that you can go hire somebody that you really need instead of me right, breaking down the, you know, the, like, systematizing the coordination. In a more lightweight way in a lot more variants than we have with, you know, either you're working for 100 bucks an hour or you're not doing anything. I think is is, you know, it's the next step. And I think it will really enable much more collaboration than we've got where where you've just you feel frozen out of projects because you don't know how to contribute you don't know that they would respect your contribution. So, I, you know, you're totally right, it's a big area of inquiry, and kind of like what I said, not only is it important to get right. It's important for the infrastructure people, people like me and David, Michael Linton to, as we build these structural things to make it so that normal people don't like have it in their face all the time, you know, it's not not like, you know, hey, I'm attending this meeting and I'm checking in you know, and then at the end of the meeting okay I'm checked out did I get my, you know, credits, you know, it's, it's got to be a lot more friendly and invisible to to most people, while still, you know, letting other people kind of evaluate you I feel good about joining this project. Oh look what a great surprise I actually, you know, got some I can I can get some help with my project because I helped with that project. So, it's tricky, I agree. Yeah, and just to just to pick up on that a little bit. You know our minds are trained to think of what we get back. You know, thinking in terms of value I think is very important, because we all know if an individual doesn't proceed they're getting value out. They're going to stop contributing. But I think that we need to be thinking in terms of compensation. We're value other than financial monetary credit, you know, any of those things, because I think those are the things that we're trying to, in some way purge out of the society we're envisioning in the future, you know, the word garden world comes up as a, as a wonderful overriding theme. There's a big conversation here and we've touched it multiple times in the GM conversations and other sorts of places so we're not going to conclude it here but it's important to fold in. One, one, one of my complaints about capitalism is the difference between commodification and commoditization. So commodification is when you take a thing that what didn't formally have a price, and you turn it into a commodity. So suddenly pricing water and saying hey you have to pay for water where before you just used to take your bucket and go to the lake and get water, or whatever. So commoditization is when you make enough of these things that that they become commodities like a number two pencil, or a bar of soap or whatever else, and those are different. And capitalism wants everything to have a price and be bought and sold, which is part of what we're worried about arguing with trying to fight here, and then also capitalism conflates the object being bought or sold with the reward for the value created. And so in my perspective as a creator of occasional content or whatever. I would love for everybody to be able to access as much content as possible for free with no barriers like digital rights management software or anything like that. And I would love to be rewarded for the work of doing so. And this disengaging those things on disentangling those things is important to me. But again it's a really it's a huge conversation. And now for a completely different thing. Patti memory, if memory serves you're going to visit Todd and Pia is that in the past or in your future or that goes in the past. Is in the past that was the month of March, it was magical. It was great. Awesome. Thank you. Yeah, lots of fun. And then Stacy, would you like to check in. If anything just about how you how you're doing post Marley and anything else. Excuse me. I just, you know, it's surreal hearing his name. And I really, really appreciate it because I mean this has been a really hard week. But as I said to Patti in the chat, very sacred. So it's, it's special to hear his name because one of the things that I realized is what makes it more difficult for me is that I don't want to forget him. I want to remember him so yeah I spent a lot of money this week buying myself presents that remind me of them and redecorating and. Well, can I have two minutes to share a quick story. Please. So I did a lot of shopping and trying to keep myself busy and I went to Home Depot and I was just exhausted and of course I bumped into somebody who asked me about you know how I was doing so I just broke down and cried. And I'm exhausted but I didn't want to go back to the house because it's just too sad. So I said right I'm going to go to this one other store. I really want to go to but I decided okay I'm going to push myself and walking out the store. I see the lady vet that I had taken him to the week before her name and it was her. And I told her what happened and we hugged. I walked inside the store, after doing that and in my mind, I said, Marley you made me come here. Didn't you so that I could meet this woman. And I looked down, and there was a plaque. And it said, be happy. And just, I've had a week like that. That's one episode, but I've had a week like that. So it's hard not to, you know, as sad as I am. I'm also, you know, feeling really connected to him still. So thank you for letting me share. That's lovely Stacy, thank you. After my last pet was my cat smidge who I had to let go of background 2007. And I got a loveliest condolence card in the mail from the vet, who saw me through that process was just beautiful. Very heartfelt. I'm interested in getting us like moving forward into the things that we're talking about and sharing about here Pete and I have taken a swing at an agenda or a to do list, and sort of a list of tasks for the project, which I still got it up on. I'll just do a screen share and we can send you a link to the page. I have a couple of things we sort of we've named the project. I changed the references to Marley on the matter most but not necessarily everywhere but there's still a bunch of different tasks here, but I kind of want us to rethink for a second. What are the tasks, what would it take for us to get get up and get moving so that the next couple weeks we have a sense of achievement and progress on this I just kind of want to want to ask it broadly without looking at this to do list. And see what we can do. And then I will not be here next Monday I have a minor outpatient surgery on Monday, so I'll probably be conked out all day Monday but I should be fine Tuesday and going forward but I won't be on this call Monday. What will help us get get like field progress. So, one of the things that I saw in the list was, you know, put out kind of a call to the GM network about wants to be champions for a particular my translation content area. And I think that will make people start to feel that the project is real. That that we allow you know that that we've identified a bunch of areas slash chapters or, you know, individual books but but I think that's an important one. Totally agree. Other thoughts. I think class had mentioned last week about maybe reading together one of Doug's chat one of the chapters of Doug's book and class maybe I'm paraphrasing incorrectly, but I thought that was a good starting point. So another thing that comes up. You know, this I guess is directed mostly at Pete and Jerry. Are you guys confident that if you know somebody jumps up and says, you know, I want to do a whole area blank whatever it happens to be that that there is a structure. And that's going to hold the, the, you know, the, the, the content. So, you should mention that some of the building, some of the pages that we've been building have to do with roles, and also kind of a design guide or design Bible for what would feel like a book within the Marley universe. And the roles are a way of trying to guarantee it's a bit of quality assurance it's a bit of progress management, it's a bit of team building all those kinds of things. So we think that each book would wind up having kind of an editorial staff and again, the language we have on the roles page right now is very much the language of publishing and may change. So we haven't had that conversation about hey what metaphor do we want to use for overall structure here but we know that as part of as part of putting out the call to OGMers and others. We want to sort of point people to a couple of the pages that you just basically mentioned by by by asking the question. And then the design guide is, hey, what are we trying to write here so Pete started with a relatively straightforward idea for what a book could be which is an edited volume. It basically has contributions for each chapter is a contribution written by a different individual, but together they make up an anthology or they make up something that they have in common so that that's pretty easy to think about. But we also Pete then just pitched a reference. I think I think of it Pete as a reference work that has profiles of different kinds of business process frameworks etc etc. That's not necessarily an edited. Well, maybe that qualifies as an edited volume but I'm not sure, but it's clearly a reference work that would work. And then I was brainstorming in the chat while class was talking about field guides field manuals or handbooks for that are crisp and to the point for people. Let's say I'm a small farmer and I want to figure out what what's the regenerative approach to water. So we have the best answers but that we could create a field guide that incorporates some of the best answers and then points to terrific resources around the world and communities online that affect blah blah blah easy sort of the same the same thing playing out. And I can easily see some of those things coming out. And Pete if you want to jump in and elaborate or whoever else or more questions. Did that help or Yeah. Jerry I've got questions or answers to your question. Excellent. I love that. So one of them is is actually, I have a word but I'm not going to use it. Okay I'm going to use it. So one of the things that I think is is funny prosecuting the to do list executing on the to do list. Anyway, I would like to see us work the to do list every week. And maybe it will change from a to do list to something else but we should go over the things and check off the ones that are done and move the dates for the ones that we didn't hit yet and talk about which are important and stuff like that. So maybe working the tasks is is a sign of maturity for me. Having a list of the books. So already class talked about to and I talked about one. And then I think we've got another one which is the first book to do is another concept that we have. So already we've got four books. So we need to be tracking those on our wiki, or where we track stuff. So I think those are things that would make me feel like we're have a sense of achievement in progress. I'm just taking live notes live notes on the tasks page because because it's in obsidian and it's easier for me to just push this once we're done. And then we can all see it. So I just added convene book teams and I think that the conveners so far that we're thinking about our Doug Klaus, you and me. And then what else who wants to jump in like like we would immediately add and then we need to figure out what the name of each of these is what the name of each of these book book like projects is so that we can refer to them as we go. And then Pete and I were trying this we were already thinking a little bit ahead about how to structure. Where does the work of a particular book project go and there's a sort of a folder for we'd like to keep the book projects in a particular space on the on the wiki etc. But that that's very doable. Yeah, looking, looking at the list Jerry I think it's this notion of by 416. Which is the date in the past I'm afraid it's a wish. Yeah, I just realized that. And yeah, you would come up with a description of Marley for the plex I think that's an important piece because that's the big vision. And that's a so Pete sent his reminder note this morning to hey any contributions with plex and that's one of the things I want to write for the plex so that will get done. Change, change the date. Okay. I think I can. Well, it needs to be done by tomorrow so I'll put tomorrow's data should be done Wednesday. I will finish it although the draft should be done tomorrow. Yep. Yep. And change the date for we are the wiki pages. Let's do that to in the next day or so. I would propose another one in the chat. It says potential task to find what metaphors we want to use for the overall structure here. Sorry, where are you in the chat. A new one. Oh, in the chat. You can just copy and paste it. So, from the with my business process patterns hat on. It feels. It feels like I've got a team is actually me and Jerry right now. Me and Jerry chat to PT I guess we've got a team already. And so instead of finding book champions. I don't know I that one doesn't have to change but I've got a project that's going to have connections to Marley it's going to have connections to map of the future world it's going to have connections to Lion's bird. So, so another, another observation I have that task and write the fact entry books dad are related to one other. I don't think we have to represent that yet. As a project manager, I can see that we need more. Yeah, partly putting out the. But putting out the call across OGM land, kind of is dependent on answering some of the questions that are above it. So that we have enough structure to send out I think. And pdp put a calendar entry, a repeating calendar entry in my calendar for Fridays to do this thing. Okay. So, so you can check it out. I think I'll check that out for now. Yeah, and then we rewrite a little bit set up reminder and steps and reminder. Set up a reminder or whatever. I wonder, I would love to show folks the tools for thought map project tracker, which is conceptual the same as our task list here I wonder if that would be fun or not. You want to do it during this. We could do that. I mean, it would be a nice way to show people what a project what a project tracker might be like for this project. It's. Yes, exactly. And it also would be really scary looking I think. Perfect. And this for sure. And then we don't have here to flesh out the design Bible or whatever it is. Yeah, yeah. Cool, what else. Let me just back go back to the question I asked earlier, which of these things would make us feel like we're seeing progress like we're moving forward, or are we missing something that would give us that notion. So working this, this list feels to me like we're making progress and I appreciate that. Cool. Think it would help to write an abstract for those books for ducking clouds and for Pete and cherry, right and abstract of what is it that you have in mind here. Yeah. So convene book teams and then right. You can do, you can hit tab and it'll tab in if you want. Just to make things subordinate. If you want. Oops. So you're saying just that. Yeah, except. Okay, that's fine. I think you can hit tab any place in the line. I don't think I got you. Cool. And I guess this is sort of subordinate to that to find book champions can mean book teams read abstracts. Cool. I really early thing before we even had task list, we had the idea of doing a first. Doing a first book. I'm doing quick and quick first book. Yeah. Yeah. Oh good. It's that one. Yeah. And in fact, I'm going to do what you think I'm going to do and create a page for it. I mean, quick first book could also be an extended abstract. Yes. There's a. There's a or a bar. Kind of snaking against tail thing that you have to watch out for when you do. When you create pictures like that. Well, when the, when your first project output is the description of the project. Oh, the way cost is confusing. Yeah. Yeah, I think we're thinking of something that actually smells like a book, but is the simplest thing we could possibly do. That may not be referencing the project itself, but rather some, some other thing out in the world. And it may involve already written chapters from somebody's work somewhere. I mean, if we had a couple of different contributions that fit nicely together, we'd be on our way. Garden world would be a good first one, but it's too big of a project, I think. And then business patterns, business process patterns would be a good first one because it's pretty far along, but it's the wrong shape. How do you mean the wrong shape shape. It's a reference book, not a, you know, Well, so part of the reason I was thinking earlier on reference books, field manuals, handbooks, and then book books sort of thing of you know more normal books on fiction was that I would love for the collection to include a variety of formats so so a reference guide sounds like a great shape to me. I don't, I think it's, I would propose that it's not a good first shape. Yeah. And, and, and maybe even more importantly, you and I are too involved in it already. So if we had, you know, if we had four or five participants from OGM, talking about meeting facilitation or sustainable practices or social justice or dynamic equity or thinking about an illustration of that world. You know, you say maybe, I mean, he was talking about a PowerPoint format but maybe more like an illustration. Remember what you will have already did with this brief history of humankind. He developed a children's picture book out of it. Sounds nice idea. Part of me was hoping that we could maybe deconstruct garden world politics and then choose a chapter that was nice and modular and recomposable and start with just that one chapter or chunk of a chapter as a contributed volume piece. And then turn to an ended volume that could work. And I also like the idea of the same work at different levels of, you know, I explain this to me at different levels and also explain this to me in different modes, you know, make a video of it make an animation of it whatever that would be cool as well. Maybe using us an illustration AI. I've seen some amazing. I inserted public versus from the Bible into a graphics AI and got amazing illustrations back from it. Maybe we can use something like that. That sounds cool. Pete, do you want to do the project tracker demo. I do. That'd be great. Thanks. As, as as preamble. The project participants in tools for thought all our database database geeks. So this wasn't weird for us. I think it's so it's not muggle friendly at all. And having thought about this a long, long time I think the thing to do is to have a project tracker that database people don't mind working with. So the project management folks and then having most people not having to look at that or interact with it. So this is like the how to make the sausage. Not, you know, not the people making the sausage. So, different tasks we've come up with over time. And then a thing that we all really like is how many fields we have for each task. So let me let me open one of these. So there's a tracking ID. We've got a flag for discuss this one at the next meeting. It's assigned to a person. It's signed off by person. We've got what phase of the project. It might apply to phase one phase, phase zero phase one, after phase one, after phase two. What status it's at, whether it's something we're going to consider at some point but not anytime soon. We can probably as we're actually doing it, or it's done, and we need other people to review it, or it's resolved. We've got places for like a link to something notes for things. We don't actually use priority or effort yet, although, but it also doesn't freak us out to have those lying around where if I was making this local friendly I would hide those probably. And a place to put attachments. Let me see if I can actually. So then we have. I'm going to come back to attachments. Then we have different views of it. So this is good view is kind of like the everything Excel spreadsheet thing. You can do a database trick. This is filtered by need to reach need to read needed for phase two, as needed phase two, and it's not resolved. So then this is a list that you can look at and go, Oh, I get it. These are the things that we actually care about. You know, all the, all the ones that are resolved are out of here all the ones that are easier out of here. So I can look at just my task list, which is kind of the same as unresolved right now I created a bunch of subtasks here. And to do that, I made a new thing called. I made a new thing called parent tasks. So all of these are a sub task of these parent tasks. So you can look for just what are open tasks that aren't assigned to anybody. And these different views you can do lots of different ones, you know, lots of sites and dice, lots of different ways. We played around with a Kanban view. This is a thing that is part of the air table that we're using. You can actually drag and drop these into different columns and you can create stuff in a column and things. And I've actually been using the Kanban view, even though this, this is nice sometimes. Let me show you the attachment thing. This is a place where just as color commentary so Pete and crew have effectively used air table to reconstruct a project management app like Monday. So this is a place where I wanted to have a screenshot of this, because in doing some other tasks I know that I'm going to make this look, not look the way it looks anymore and now I need to make sure. So I wrote a note to myself. And this has got a part that I'm going to need to look at later when I'm working on this task. And Matthew has been really good at doing that he's been good at using comments. So you can, for each, each item here, you can have a whole comment thread about stuff. And go back and forth about, you know, what's going on. Are the comments of discourse option in your table or are they just a sub table that's acting as comments. They're actually part of the, the object that the table row. I have to say I think it was another project of similar thing where I actually we implemented a comment feature in the table itself. It was hard to use. Um, so the, the way Jerry said this we built a tool, we built a project tracker in air table. It's, it's a lot like people with an erector set or Legos or something knocking together something. And so to anybody else it's like, Oh my God, that you want me to use that Lego thing to do my actual work. And the short answer is it's not muggle friendly and I understand that. But for people who are fluent in it, we'll, we'll have a task as one of the tasks we checked off. I won't dig it up, but it was like review the columns that he added and subtracted over the last week. So it's like, okay, I added this one, I tick away these other ones. And Bill and Matthew got that sounds great. Check it off. Done. So being able to hack the structure of it is something that's really, you can do the same thing in Excel or Google Sheets war paper. Each has their pros and cons. So I, I see more and more like sophisticated, like maybe not sophisticated people who are doing a lot of project management. The, I know asana is a big favorite of folks Monday is great. Trello is great. If you, if you have a little bit of facility with Google sheets or Excel, and you don't mind playing around a little bit air table is even better, and it just makes it more fun to manage the project and easier because you can invent the field like oh wow I need to keep notes or oh wow I need to keep attachments with something I just added and it was because I needed it for one thing. So someday we'll have something in between a small little page of checkboxes and this monstrosity will get there somewhere in the middle. And hopefully most people won't even care. I think it depends with how many people you are communicating what kind of project manager mean I used to excel for really complex projects and that was the core driver, which is fine. But when you have a lot of people communicating with to communicate with them. And what you're showing there is seems to be a whole lot more practical. Yep. Yeah, well got lots and lots of power. Lots and lots of power. And people like how many steps of the tick to start this thing up and run it and so forth. So now you can check off that task. Oh good. Exciting. We'll do that now. Check. Check. Just go back to the screen share. We are getting close to the end of this call time. I've got a couple of things that I've signed up for here. So I have a feeling that this that well and I won't be on next week's call but one of the things that seems important to do is just start fleshing out. What does it mean to do a book team and what and maybe we need a template for book teams or something like that. I don't want to say one should come before the other, but I think we should double down on quick first book. And turn the crank once and see what happens. That sounds great. I think that's a great idea. That would be fabulous before before we start sort of splitting up into book teams and doing all that you mean just it turns out we're going to do it in parallel. But yeah, but I think we can get a quick first book done in two weeks. I don't think we can get it done by next week. Yeah. No, we talked about some garden, you know, simplified garden world things. Yeah, they suck too bad that duck is out of town so to speak for the moment he may be available on email. Like the quick first book thing it should be like really easy to get our arms around even really easy to get a hand around and just go okay, I understand what we did and you know, I can write down the. So, Stuart had a great, a great question, you know, hey Pete, hey Jerry, are you guys actually confident that you have a workflow and a process and all that. I'm confident that we can build one. And we have a lot of tools that will support us. We haven't actually, we don't have any proof yet. Actually, garden world can be reduced to a very simple concept, you know, it's, there's a lot of text around it but the core principle of what duck was was after year can be summarized fairly easily. And what Pete just said I turned into a page we sort of need to start editing called the Marley workflow, which is okay good once we once we start doing the quick first book. We're going to figure out what does that mean in terms of production process. I'm so close to the core principle of what Doug was after was is fairly simple and straightforward. I quick first book like overview of garden world, I think would be a good one. Um, cool. I think we could recruit crop clouds. So I may be having holding too high a bar up here but for a quick first book. I was thinking of something that had contributions from at least two people, maybe three. And a quick review of garden world sounds like maybe just an excerpt or several chapters taken out of garden world and reposted as a short book, which is a similar project, but not as reposted as I would love what thoughts I think you could have, you know, for people do that I don't think it has to be one person doing that. So, my thought is and this is congruent Jerry with your FAQ aren't books dead. So being the book, being a living thing that it's not just a static thing or at least the books that we're thinking about. And I hope we're thinking of them being a living thing. So, the idea of, you know, starting with the overall concept of what garden world is and then, you know, people contributing in some way, other folks contributing in I mean that's my, that's the way I, I would see it. It could also be. This is just a model, but if I'm illiterate tools for conviviality way back when and there is another book. Dude, I thought it was this book of his. No is a de schooling, de schooling society sorry so there's a there's another book called after de schooling what. And this is basically critiques of de schooling society by a bunch of interesting thinkers from back in the day. So this is maybe maybe a simple model, maybe too complicated a model for what we're talking about. So this is sort of this important book. Go ahead Stacy. I don't mean to divert and I will not be offended if nobody likes this idea, but what's coming up for me in terms of garden world and farming and all these other things as I always think about the role of animals in our society. This holds a place in Pete's heart in terms of how he eats. And I think about how our world would be different if we thought about animals differently. And all the ways and the different ways that people from different fields would relate to the way we view animals and the way it affects our world. It affects government policies, it affects religion, it affects farming, it affects the soil, and I'm just wondering if there might be a way to organize around that as a sample, just throwing it out there. I would love to find some images, AI generated interpretations of that Stacy, because we can if you enter text of what you just expressed that will translate it into an image, and then you can refine that image into. So we could really illustrate this this first book or add some illustrations that are enriching the book itself. I bet you Christopher Chase might actually have something that he created by hand, your friends with him on Facebook I know. And Stacy, what you just described feels to me like the next bump up from the simplest book we could do where something about the simplest book would be would contain some content about animals, and then there could be a point of view taken of what it means to treat animals differently and that could be a book published on top, or beside the original book that has some kind of strong opinion about what you mean about how we see animals. But could a simplest be I mean I didn't read the dawn of everything, but I'm assuming that there was some stuff in there about that. Could this, could this know there wasn't not really specifically. Oh, okay, because I'm just thinking could as could a simpler book be just taking what we know from different religions and from native traditions. I think up a different topics to see this first book. Yeah, I mean there's an integration of farm animals into our food system. And then, you know, even in the Jewish tradition and the kosher tradition right is to treat these animals with respect and integrity. Okay. Okay. I'm out of ideas then. Yeah, I think those are good ideas. I think there is a little bit further down our path. So, maybe a different way to ask the question is, what could a few people in OGM do in an, I'm going to say in an afternoon it might actually be a couple, you know one hour meetings or something like that but there there should be a few people in OGM is we talk about it so much that a few of us could get together and just put together 1000 words or 2000 words. So what, what, what is OGM really good at how to run the zoom meeting. Attracting like minded people. So what are some of the more meta processing things as opposed to content. Well, those are maybe bad examples. Soil health might be one, you know, or climate change climate, you know, 2000 3000 words on climate change and, and, you know, where, where, where we go from here. I actually like that one. It's the opposite though I guess it's the complement of garden well just the stick instead of the carrot. There's something more sense doing stuff, for example, and like Doug is on is on the road for well. But I really loved the idea of doing sense doing around his claim that hey anything we do to mitigate climate change is going to cost energy and therefore there's like this catch 22 situation. And people love to unpack that. And it's not a thing that we're expert in, but the act of sense doing around that would cause a little book to come into being that would have some point of view about that. And in fact, very likely, there could be two books around that one topic that had different, and you know, edgily different kind of point perspectives on it. And that would be, that would be interesting novel, etc, etc, a topical would it be easy. It might not, it's not as easy as not as easy as taking simpler found parts and sort of assembling and editing them that's, that's I think easier. This would involve convening the sense doing to do that. And as we've seen, it's not a not a simple task. But it would excite me would excite me enormously to sort of tackle that question because I think that question is one of those lovely friction points at the leading edge of how do we mitigate climate change. The similar pig further down a different Python is indoor air quality, actually. Yes, I was thinking also about masking and indoor air quality as the subjects of a, of a simple book and sense doing as well. So, I would be up for that as well. This is, this is a bigger one but what pops up what popped into my mind is the title has been used a brave new world. It is a catchy title. Apparently. Moving back a little bit to meta process which I don't, I, which I love, of course, but which I don't think is good for this but anyway. I know that Ken was involved in World Cafe. And I would love a little handbook of, you know, here, here's World Cafe here's open space technology here's, you know, four ways to get people together and, and be more productive. I think we have a lot of subject matter expertise about that in the, in the larger room. Yeah, there's a book, there's a book called the change handbook, which incorporates. I don't know what the number is was edited, I made a contribution to it was edited by a professor at the. The school at Bowling Green State University. Yeah, Peggy Holman's involved in that as a friend. Yeah. There's years ago I was bitching that there wasn't enough written about appreciative inquiry online so I was like gosh I wonder if there's like a little book of appreciative inquiry turns out there's a book called the thin book of appreciative inquiry, which fortunately is so thin that it didn't add meaningfully to my understanding of appreciative inquiry, which is too bad, but it's in the same general direction. Yeah, I'm actually working on a, on a project for the possible citizens handbook, a new, a new edition of it. And, and Diana Whitney wrote, you know, one of the chapters in it. Yeah, I think I think pocket sized field manuals handbooks are really, really interesting as a genre, because they're light, you can charge very little for them they move around a lot and if they're good they could be really useful to people. Patty. I just wanted to chime in real quick before we finish up here, not really related to what's being shared. I'm just want to acknowledge that I don't really know where I can contribute at this time in this project I don't know that I have a lot to offer in the way of law the topics that tend to be discussed in these groups so I don't think I could speak on them very knowledgeably. And that said, I do feel that I have some editing skills I can bring forward, and I also would love to at some point contribute something I don't really know what yet around I think my, my wheelhouse is my interest light and you know human behavior and what I've been calling emotional mechanics or emotional physics and just the relational dynamics between people and unpeeling deeper layers of that. And I don't know where that fits in, but I'm just wanted to toss it out there and I'm open to taking direction and invitations around this too because I don't really know where to put myself yet so. That's a delightful, that's a delightful way to check into the project I really appreciate that. Thanks. Thanks. And I can easily see you creating emotional physics perspectives on any of the other sort of topics that have come up here be really interesting. That sounds like fun. Yeah, thanks. And that would fit really nicely into the sort of remake remix of book like artifacts that we're thinking about doing. Cool. Any other last words before we wrap this call. Thanks. Let's be careful out there. Thanks. Thanks everyone take care.