 I'm actually a fully carnivore. Oh, you're really? God forgive him. Actually, don't forgive him. This is unjustified. Humans right now are protected by law, but animals are not. You agree? What about cows? Do cows deserve human rights? Then we can't eat them, then. If they have rights, you can't eat them. So we shouldn't be eating them. You can stop eating them. You should. And all other products coming from animals. You agree? Come on. Come debate me. Why animals humans? Humans are an animal. Yeah, because animals aren't human. They don't deserve human rights. Look, animals deserve to be treated with love, care, respect. Okay. But I also believe that humans are food. I'm sorry. No humans. Animals are food, sorry. I believe that. But I do not believe it. So are you Muslim? Yeah. Is that why you believe it? Not necessarily. Okay. Even before I was Muslim, I was eating meat. So you're a reaver? Well, yeah. Since I'm a reaver. Okay. Are we going to have a religious discussion or a secular discussion? We don't have to. Because you can be a vegan Muslim as well. Yeah, because I had debates with Muslims. I just want to know what kind of discussion it's going to be. We don't have to about religion. Okay. We don't have to, yeah. Yeah, because otherwise I'll do it through the lens of Islam. No, no, no. We need to go. Okay. So I believe that because animals, you said, what did you say Jacinda about? That they are animals are food. Do you believe they're food? Yeah. And why do you believe that? Because I really enjoy eating it. Yeah, but I mean, I could really enjoy eating you. It doesn't mean you're food. I mean, technically you've made it me. It's different though. I'll tell you why it's different. Okay. It's different in the sense that I completely get where the vegan argument comes from in the fact, in the terms of like, first of all, let's put the animals aside for the planet, the sustainability, the environment, the contribution to... That's not why I'm vegan. Hold on. That's the side of the point. That's one part which I understand and I get. And that's why I make an effort to make sure when I'm sourcing my meat, I source as responsibly as possible. I don't just... How do you do that? So I buy from farms directly, grass fed, things, animals that have been reared well, lived a good life. So you don't eat food when you're out? Not really. Unless, unless they have... Unless I know I'm going to a restaurant where they're sourced good meat. Because they disclose that. How do they disclose it? By advertising that. By telling you. Yeah, by telling you. You believe what they say? Yeah. Okay, so if I told you... Also, for example, I'm a chef myself. So when I go out to eat in certain restaurants... I'm not talking about KFC or Burger King or McDonald's here. I'm talking about restaurants where I know what they're doing. No you don't. I know where they're sourcing their stuff from. No you don't. You can know on paper, but you don't know what happens in the farm or the abattoir. Because how can you? Because if I'm using the same supplier as them... It doesn't... Yeah, but you say that you know... What I'm trying to say is that you only know what happens in the farm and in the slaughterhouse when you leave secret cameras when no one's watching. Which is what we do as investigators. Yeah. And have you seen the footage? Yeah, I've seen stuff. I've mostly seen stuff in America. No, no, no. I've not really seen much stuff in the UK. No, in the UK, most animals here are factory farmed as well. There's over 800 mega US-style factory farms in the UK. So all the chickens here are factory farmed? Yeah, I know that. They're just disgusting. And they grow without feathers. And they're pumped with hormones. So it takes out what? Like three, four weeks to fully grown. It's disgusting. So yeah, but exactly. But you eat it and you support it and you sell it. I don't eat that chicken. I don't eat that chicken. And they're all factory farmed. Where are you getting chicken from? France. Corn feds from Northern France. So you only eat corn fed chicken. That's it. Well, if I go to someone's house and they've cooked chicken, I don't know where it's coming from. But what I'm trying to say is... You know the thing is it's hard to stay consistent in that. When it comes to rights, right? Yeah, I mean... It's hard to stay consistent. Yeah. Because you can't... It's very impossible. You never know what happened. There's an investigator who knows someone who's involved with animal rights been for a long time. They tell you one thing and they're doing another thing because you're a customer at the end of the day. They're not going to advertise all the abuses and cruelty and suffering of the animals and the struggle in the slaughterhouse and the blood. But you're not going to be a customer anymore, right? Yeah. Now you say you buy directly from a farm. I don't know if you go into the slaughterhouse and watch the animals struggle. I don't. Okay, we stick cameras in and watch them and try to escape the knockbox cows and things like this. Yeah. When I talk about rights, it doesn't matter how you treat a slave. Right? It doesn't matter to the slave. Yes, it does matter. But they're still a slave and they still get killed. Mm-hmm. So if I would have human beings where... In one farm they're being whipped constantly and abused, right? In another farm where they're not being whipped constantly but they're still a slave and they will still be decapitated for a sandwich. Yeah. They might... And it might be... Let's just think of a quick death. Both of those situations are having their rights violated. One, there's some serious welfare issues. Another one is they're having... They're still having their rights violated. Yeah. Yeah. Human rights. Yeah. They're being treated. Mm-hmm. They're still a product that will be decapitated and have their rights are life-taken. Yeah. And they are sentient and conscious as well. Yeah. Like we are maybe not on the same... 100% agree with you on that. Yeah. So that's why I'm saying they deserve rights, which is beside the point of welfare, really. So rights in terms of what they're using, they have the right not to be killed. Yeah, like negative rights. So you say, CA said not to be? Yeah. Yeah, like to be infringed upon. Yeah. To be artificially inseminated and all that. Violated. Murdered. Like rape, I know that. Yeah. For the animal. Like I don't know if you've ever been to prison. But they... There's non-sexual acts of... Well, not sex... Without sexual intent acts of rape that happen all the time in prison. So they might rape someone for being a snitch with them. They might rape them with a toilet brush. Yeah. Right? They might say he's a snitch. Yeah. So rape can still be in the dairy industry. Yeah. The cow is having a fist inside her anus. And that for the cow is what? Rape. It's wild. Yeah. It's wild. Listen, there's a lot of farming methods out of disgusting. I agree with you. And what about just the decapitation of animals? Yeah. I mean, look, as a Muslim, obviously they need to be slaughtered by a cutthroat. A cutthroat. No, they don't. They don't know him in the UK. You know that, right? Pardon? Do you know much about Halal slaughter, Halal guidelines here in the UK? Go on and tell me. So not all animals are non-stun Halal, which is consistent with the Hadith. What do you mean? Well, basically, in a Hadith, you're not so allowed to stun them with a gun. By? That's Haram. Yeah. But yeah, there's... No, no, you can stun them. If the stun doesn't kill them, then that's Halal. If the stun just stuns them but doesn't kill them, then that's... They didn't have stun guns back then. That's permissible. No, no, no. You're not killing them. You're stunning them. If the killing act is slaughtered, then that is completely permissible. Oh, really? Yeah. I don't know that. Also, in Islam, you do know that anyone by the book, so let's say a Jewish person or a Christian person kills an animal. They're allowed to permissible Muslims to take it as a gift. Because this is an authentic Hadith, which our prophet, peace be upon him, said, that if it's been sought to by people of the book, then it's permissible for us to eat. We should have to obviously beat the smell of the food. So what about causing animals suffering in factory farms before you eat them? Yeah, that's wild. I don't like that. Is it permissible? No, no, that's not permissible. So that's Haram. Because you're causing pain and suffering to the creation of God. Yeah. It's unjust. It's disgusting. Yeah. Animal cruelty is permissible. So when you're in the UK and you're buying all these chicken and that, you eat Haram food all the time, they just put a Halal stamp on it. But then the thing is, if it's been sold as Halal, but it's actually Haram, that's not our fault as Muslims, because we're being sold as a... Until you know. So now you know that most chickens here at Factory Farm, almost all of them, actually all of them, and they're caused suffering because they've been selectively bred to suffer. Suffering is unavoidable in Factory Farm chickens these days. What they do... I've seen videos. So they take those chickens, and they take them to Halal's waterhouse. So Bismillah in this waterhouse, and that's about it. They get a prayer, and they get shot, decapitated, but they've had a big truck ride there, and they're all suffering in their overgrown bodies. And then they put a Halal stamp on it, and the Muslim are going to Halal KFC, grab some chicken. Yeah, listen, I'll tell you what, I think I personally in the Halal industry, is a lot more f***ed up than the non-Halal industry. I'll tell you why. They will be willing to put the most f***ing quality nonsense, put a Halal stamp on it, and sell it for more price, because it's Halal. Is it cost-morm Halal? Sometimes it can, but this is something that... I also, for example, like Halal sausages, or Halal, like, if you buy frozen Halal, it's like nuggets and whatever. Matt, there's s*** that's in that. We don't even eat in my home, because it's just disgusting. And when you're vegan, you know. You know. I'm actually, right now, I'm actually a fully carnival. Oh, you're really? Yeah. But I have a lot of respect for the vegans, and I'll tell you why. Because I respect people that stand up for what they believe in, and you guys have shaped the world. And that, for me, is hats off. And I have a lot of respect, and I admire vegans. But I know a lot of people have this inclined to have beef with vegans. Yeah, there's a lot of negative stigma towards vegans. It's stupid. There are a lot of chefs in my industry. I've worked in many restaurants, and the vegans get a lot of stick, but it's like we should be catering for people's dietary for their form. It's not a diet. So there's, like, dietary in terms of... It's a moral principle. It extends to diet. It's the main culprit for animal abuse and killing. Muslims also have standards to respect animals, which is why I have better conversations with Muslims and Christians, because it doesn't really say anything in Bible about it. It's basically like the God's creatures are here for us. We have the Garden of Eden, which was vegan. We have the God's Perfect Paradise, when the lion lays down with the lamb, which is vegan. In between, God says, all the creatures are for you. It doesn't say that you can't torture them. It doesn't say which animals you can and can't eat. So I can basically torture a dog for 12 hours and eat them under the Christian worldview, and there's nothing stopping them in the Bible. At least in Islam, there is... You have to respect God's creatures. You can't harm even a sparrow, or you'll be judged on the day of judgment. You know, unjustly, I must say. My thing is, my whole thing is, back then, 1400 years ago, the world was different. Now we have iPhones and I'm sure the Prophet didn't have an iPhone and this and that. Maybe some social media would even be here. Maybe there's a lot of... There's levels to... I know that. There's really bad things that you can't do ever, and there's stuff that you can be forgiven for. But what I'm saying is, back then, there might have been a situation where they had to kill animals. So what they thought of was, how can we do this in the best way? So we don't want them to see each other. We pray to God and we'll get a really sharp knife so that it's a very quick process for the animal. Because now, we have options, right? It is unjust now, because we don't have to do it. And you can never be sure, because now animals have been used as a product, that it's industry, it's a business now. Unless you've looked after this animal your entire life, their entire life, and you've kept an eye on them and you've genuinely personally done it, and they're a happy animal. And then you do everything that's in the hadith, which I still think is wrong, by the way, because you're slashing the throat of an animal when you don't have a reason to. You don't need it for the survival, you don't need it for your health. There's no reason to do this. You can have a supplement that now technology has changed. So as a Muslim, you can never be sure. But with veganism, you can. And it's showing compassion. It's the most compassionate thing you can do. Like Halal is like trying to be compassionate while still killing the animal, right? But even more so, showing more mercy is being vegan. I agree with you 100%. I do agree. It's the most Halal. Think about it. As an animal here, the God made them, like animals, get afraid. You slashed their throat. They try to breathe. They're struggling, I've seen. Yeah, they don't want to die, man. They don't submit. I've been back home and I've watched goats being sacrificed. It's this horrible, man. They're struggling. It is tough to watch. It is tough to watch. Yeah. And you don't even have to, it's not even, it's permissible to be vegan. You don't have to, it's not mandated to eat meat. You can't say that it's not allowed because that would be going against God's word. When you look at animals choking on their blood and you think, oh yeah, I'm going to have a burger tonight. That's so worth it. But your heart and your conscience are saying something and you believe God created you, right? And your children, do you have children? No, no. No. But when you have children, let's just say, I don't know if you know any, like family members have children. Yeah. When they see an animal be slaughtered, they are terrorized by it in their heart in something, aren't they? I was that child. Exactly. It is tough to watch. So God created you to be... You almost become desensitized by it eventually though. Yeah, exactly. But when you're at your purest as God created you, when you see it, oh my God, this is wrong. So listen to that. Why don't we listen to that? That God-given insight. It's a fair point. You know what I'm saying? And being vegan is completely consistent with the religion. In fact, you're doing the best to avoid these things. You know who's going on in the back of your mind. You can never be sure. You don't know how much that animal suffered. You don't know if someone beat their head in before they cut their throat in a slaughterhouse. We film all the time. That's rough. I'd have f**ked that. Yeah. There's nothing really... There's no real justification these days. Why can't animals have rights protecting them like humans? Then you couldn't be abusing them. You couldn't be doing these horrible things that are haram in your religion to them. Because they would actually be protected and respected. And that's the most merciful thing. Yeah, no. Absolutely. Absolutely. You don't have much to say. No, no, I'm listening. You disagree? I'm listening to you. Because I'm... You know, I find you quite compelling to me. Yeah, yeah. That's cool. I mean, if you disagree, you probably would have said something. I don't disagree with anything you say. Yeah. But I'm personally not going to become vegan. Let's say you don't. And you continue to pay for animals to be decapitated and often tortured and factory farmed and you never like really looking at what's behind that label. You know what I mean? Do you think now that you've crept in from... away from being merciful, away from being compassionate and instead of focused on your own personal satisfaction or desire? It definitely is a personal selfish satisfaction. Yeah. It is. But is that consistent with...? It doesn't... It doesn't... What's the word I look for? It doesn't contradict. It doesn't contradict? No, it doesn't... It doesn't contradict. I tell you why, because it's permissible for me to do that. Yeah. God has allowed me to do that. It doesn't contradicts my virtue or my compassion. Your ethics? No. Even though if you feel bad, if you see it happening... And you don't think about the animals, either? Like how they feel? I do, I do, I do. I really do. I really do. And that's why I'm saying that. I'm very specific and very... With where I order my meat from. Yeah. I use really... I'm a chef myself, as I mentioned earlier. Yeah, I know. So I'm in touch with quite a few very good farmers. Very good farmers, yeah. Yeah. I've investigated very good farmers, very good farmers, mate. And they've got a very good slaughterhouse, too, where the animals struggle for their lives. You know what I mean? Like, this is just hoodwinking meat. And the happiness of the animal, the greater the injustice it is to murder. Like, it's almost like in these factory farms, you're killing them out of their misery, which is also bad. They shouldn't be in misery. Or when the animal is happy and wants to live more, think about when we kill a human being that's got everything going for them at the best time in their life. It's a graver injustice. You can never be sure, mate. And I'll tell you right now, you tell me where their slaughterhouse is if you want. I guarantee you when no one's watching, that's when you stick the camera in. I can show you some of the stuff we found at a grandma's local family-run slaughterhouse. They only slaughter local animals, too, like local smallholders as well. So you drive your own animals in. Right. They're punching and kicking animals. Well, basically what happens is the animals go in the knockbox and they can smell the other cow's blood and they start trying to struggle. And then one cow rip their own horns off trying to escape. And one of them must have done something to one of the slaughter workers. He grabbed the cow by the nose and goes, f**k you, f**k you. And bolted them in the head. And then the cow's like kind of stooled up, moving, and then dragged her up by her ankle, cut her head up and threw it across the ground. And I was just thinking, like, these animals, one cow tried to nuzzle the bolt gun off of the... They actually did nuzzle the bolt gun off of the... So he left the bolt gun in front of the cow. They nuzzled the bolt gun off of the ledge because they must have thought, well, they might be doing something with me in this container to my whatever. I don't know. But they were scared, man. Yeah, they know. They are conscious sentient beings, as you said. Yeah. And why do you eat them? I enjoy it. And my diet has been... It's very meat heavy. It's a carnival-based diet. And I've been doing it now for quite a while. Do you think you do want it for your health? Well, it's having a very positive impact on me so far. It's working for me. Like, you've removed processed food and just focused on... Yeah, because that happens with any dietary change where you're mindful about what you're eating. Plant-based can do that, too. Eating raw or vegan can do that, too. Actually, raw vegans are a very good one. Very good. I think it's a bit dangerous for myself because it's calorie dilute. People can get malnourished from raw veg. Too much deficit. Yeah, a high cut. Some people do it right, but I just eat a wide variety of whole plant foods. I eat junk food when I want to, so I'm not restricting, but it's vegan burger, it's vegan this and that. If you like something, you get pleasure from it. Self-desire. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you will always say, well, there's a loophole in my religion, so I don't have to really... Let's just leave this, I'm out of this. I'm not even... Yeah. I'm still... But that is where you derive your ethics from because you're not going to listen to me. You're going to listen to God. Yeah, I do listen to God. But also, God doesn't say that I can't be vegan. Yeah, so where do you go from now? No, no, no. You've got to follow your heart, don't you? And your heart is being clouded by your desire. Because there's no other... Yeah. And isn't that with anything though? Oh, it's part of what you do. Yeah, but... But also, it depends what your desires you have, kind of good desires. You can have desire to want to create peace, be consistent with your compassion, show mercy to the most vulnerable. Also, because I eat meat and because I'm not a vegan, doesn't mean I'm not a compassionate person, doesn't mean I'm not a loving person, doesn't mean I don't have... Outside of animals, yeah, but towards animals, you're cold. You have to be. You might say I don't want them to be treated cruelly, but you're also saying they can be decapitated, so I can eat them. But I've also... You have to be honest with yourself. I've also said to myself, I haven't done it yet, but I said I need to go and slaughter my own animal to do it. I should go and do it. I don't think you should. I don't want you to kill anyone. I think I should go and slaughter an animal to go and see if that's what I'm really about. Yeah, but, I mean, obviously you can go to the slaughter house where your animals are being slaughtered and say, hey man, can I... Yeah. Well, I don't know, they might let me. Could you go back home and do it really? But it's definitely tough. I mean, what if I say, you know, I really want to see what it's like slaughtering a dog, man. I've got to do it myself, eh? But, what do you care? People eat dogs in the woods. Do you think it's wrong? No. You don't think it's wrong to eat dogs? No. Oh, I don't. I don't suspect it. Does a dog think it's wrong? Yeah, I think a dog knows it's wrong. Yeah, no, it's not think, it's wrong to kill me, but if you try to kill a dog, they don't want to be killed. Natural instinct. It's not natural, just natural instinct. They do have, like, animals do think of the future. Yeah. And if you abuse a dog, they remember it. Yeah, of course. It's not always just instinct. They're not machines. No. But that was a lovely chat. I really appreciate it. I appreciate it. I've got to go back to work. Thanks, mate. Are you going to go? I admire what you guys are doing. It's really good. Just keep signing off what you believe in. I will. Maybe one day you'll remember this conversation and you'll think, I'm eating the corpse of someone who didn't want to die. This is not consistent with the good person I claim to be. It's got a wave of words, isn't it? If you can't take one of your carbs. Of course you can, mate. It's got your details on it. Yeah, it's got a little bit of, it's got like... Where can I see this? Joey Carbstrong. It's on my YouTube channel. Joey Carb. Yeah, Carbstrong. You wouldn't like that as a carnival. Carbs are scary, you know. I don't really eat much carbs. You can't eat? No. What about, what about figs? Figs. Yeah, but they're an incidental death every now and then a waspite. It's not, like, any kind of situation, you know. They're incidental. It's like I don't think... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Been on pierce twice. I've been off around. I'm quite well-known. That's why I've got a wave of words. I've been doing this for a while. God forgive him. Actually, don't forgive him. This is unjustified. See you, brother. What about cows? And cows? That means we can't eat them, though. If they have human rights, we can't eat them. Are you a... You're vegan. You're consistent, that's good.