 Bismillahi was-salatu was-salam wa-ra'ana rasulillahi salallahu wa-ra'alihi wa-salam ama ba'adah salam wa-ra'aliikum wa-rahmatullahi wa-barakatuh Brothers and sisters it gives me great pleasure to welcome you and to introduce you to a brand new show and a brand new podcast called The Hot Seat. To understand a little bit more about The Hot Seat we first have to understand the context of the modern day world we find ourselves living in in the year 2019. It is a world in which perhaps there are more doubts, misconceptions and misinterpretations that are thrown around about the religion of Islam than in any other period of time in the history of mankind. The internet is a number one source used by people globally to acquire information on any topic and it is riddled and full of false notions and erroneous ideologies about the Dean of Allah Aziz al-Wajal. Our kids, ourselves, are being exposed to this kind of information on a daily and if not daily then at the very least weekly basis and whether we know it or not, whether we choose to accept it or not it is having an effect on ourselves, our hearts, our minds and ultimately our understanding of this beautiful religion. To further complicate the problem many of us find ourselves living in Western societies where the governments and the social norms and pressures are constantly trying to redefine what is good and what is bad, what is accepted and what is rejected, what Islam is and is allowed to be and what Islam is never allowed to be. All of this my brothers and sisters ultimately leads to confusion, it leads to ignorance and if Allah permits it can lead to misguidance. The hot seat has therefore been designed with the permission of Allah alone to counter these kind of modern day contemporary issues head on by using the knowledge and the guidance of the Muslims of the past, the early generations of Muslims, the best of generations. There's not a single Muslim on the face of the planet today that would doubt the fact that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala completed our religion for us over 1400 years ago and that that completed, holistic, perfect religion is just as applicable now in the year 2019 as it was back then. We truly do have classical solutions for contemporary problems. However this isn't your normal average Islamic lecture series, first of all it's not a lecture, it's a discussion between two parties, often opposing parties in an attempt to reach the truth behind it there and secondly and perhaps more importantly it's a unique one-of-its-kind interactive podcast where you from the comfort of your own home have the opportunity to vote for and to choose the topic we'll be discussing on the show. You also have the chance to ask your own questions on these contemporary issues and to grill the speaker if you feel like he hasn't been grilled enough on the show itself. I'll be releasing details of how you can do both of those things at the end of this episode but for now without any further ado let's get into this episode of The Hot Seat. Welcome to another episode of The Hot Seat. Today we have a very very important topic to discuss. It's a heavyweight topic. It's a very contemporary modern day issue that we're going through at this moment in time and it's talking about the Muslim rulers. Are the Muslim rulers actually Muslim or are they actually disbelievers? Before we get onto that I think as always it's a good idea to start with some opening definitions. So why don't you start by defining what is kufr, what is disbelief? The word al-kufr in the Arabic language is aslul kufri. It comes from the word kaffir and it's the Masjid of kafara, the verbal noun of kafara, the root word of kafara. That's what it means and it has many meanings but all of the meaning go back to al-satr wa-taghdiya. It is to conceal something and it's to hide something. That's why the scholars they say the ayah, the ones that are being spoken about here as the kufr is the farmers. The farmers, they are kufar, kufar in the sense where they take the seed and they place it into the earth and they bury it so they hide it, they conceal it. Also the night is called kaffir, al-laylu kaffiru. The night is kaffir because it conceals the light of the sun with the darkness so it's called the kaffir. So that's what it means originally in the Arabic language. In terms of what it means in the shari'a, ashekh, others they defined it and the best or the most comprehensive definition would mean it's the opposite of al-iman. So kufr is the opposite of al-iman and so the person would then have to know what iman is because sometimes things are defined with its opposite. So kufr is the opposite of al-iman. Okay and we hear in the Quran in the sunnah we hear things like Fa'ulaika humul kaffirun, Quliya ayyuhal kaffirun. Is it easy for us to make takfir so to put this ruling of kufr on someone because it comes up quite often in the Quran in the sunnah? Does that give the impression that it's quite an easy thing for us to do? Labeling a person in kaffir is not a light issue. It's a very serious, very heavy issue. So if a person labels his brother kaffir, they will come back to one of the two. Also Muslim narrated in his sahih on the authority of Jundub that the messenger sallallahu alayhi wa sallam he said about a man, a story of a man. This man was a worshipper. He used to worship Allah a lot and he would always advise a brother of his. He would always say to him, brother, stop what you're doing. Fira Allah, repent and come back from your wrongdoings and this sunnah would consistently carry on doing it and he would do it and he would do it. So this really annoyed the worshipper. So the worshipper said to him after seeing this man's persistent and he's continuous in his wrongdoings. He said, Allah is not going to forgive so-and-so. Referring to the sunnah. Then Allah said in response to the one who said Allah is not going to give this man, Allah said to him, he said to him, Who is the one who is speaking on my behalf, who is saying that I'm not going to forgive so-and-so. I have forgiven so-and-so and I have now nullified your deeds. What he said to him right now is, he said, Allah is not going to forgive so-and-so. In other words, you're a disbeliever because the only one Allah doesn't forgive is the disbelievers. So in other words, he said to him, you're a disbeliever. So it's very dangerous when it comes to labeling a person a kafir. I just want to read one powerful quote of Imam al-Shawqani or Rahim Allah in response to that question you asked. Imam al-Shawqani, we said a statement that really deserves for a student of knowledge, for even a Muslim to memorize or to learn or even to keep it close to themselves in the course of their life. Because it's something that we find very common people labeling people kafir, kafir, disbeliever. This statement is really powerful. He said, he said, Rahim Allah, Imam al-Shawqani said, he said, he said, no labeling a man to be a disbeliever by saying he has left the fold of Islam, expelling him from Islam and putting him under the fold of disbelief. It is not befitting for a Muslim to do this, who believes in Allah and believes in the day of judgment. So now this is the principle now, unless he has clear evidence. That evidence is as clear as what? It's more clear than the sun. Okay. It can't have ambiguity. It can't be an issue of difference of opinion. It has to be something that is crystal clear. And then he brought the statement of the Prophet, he said, sure. And then at the ending of his statement, he said, many narrations and many evidence from the Prophet, he said, anything that has come in this regard, meaning the hadith that have wound against place in a person, a kafir is is one of the greatest, most serious hadiths that give you a reminder regarding this issue to go and place people as a kafir. Takfir is not my rights, your rights, or a scholar's rights. The takfir is the Haqq of Allah. It's Allah who places takfir on people. It's the messenger, sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, who can say this person is a kafir. Kufr is the right of Allah and his messenger. It can only be established evidence. Not by my sheikh said, my Imam said, however much they are in lamba, however large and great they are, doesn't matter. They don't, they're not, that's not their rights. Anyone Allah and his messenger placed him as a kafir, Kufr is like halal and haram. You and I can't say this is halal or this is haram without what? Without evidence. So what does that mean? That speaking about Allah with no knowledge. That's what I went from the ayah. We can't come and say this is halal or this is haram. It's not about Allah's religion. We have to have evidence from the Qur'an and the understand. I think before we talk about the Muslim rulers, which would be the main crux of our discussion today, I think to have a fruitful discussion is important that we agree on some certain principles before we move on. So the first question I have for you is, is kufr just an issue of the heart? Like do I have to disbelieve in Allah, disbelieve in the day of judgment or can actions, certain actions that I do also take me or anybody else outside of the fold of Islam? If I was to look at you, I can look at you from many different perspectives. I can look at you in terms of your complexion. I can look at you in terms of your height. I can look at you in terms of your ethnicity. I can look at you in terms of your gender. There's many different perspectives I can look at you. Scholars, they've done the same with kufr. They've looked at it from many different perspectives and they realized that kufr, from one of the ways I'm looking at it, It is Looking at Takfir in terms of where it occurs from Where it happens from Ahlul sunnahi wal jama'a believe kufr can happen from Qaul, speech, and aamal action and i'u'tiqaad a belief Actions as well So actions by itself can be kufr So wait, let's pause here a second So I believe in Allah, I believe in His messenger I believe in the day judgment I have all of the beliefs of a Muslim If you do have a certain act You're saying that could render me as a non-Muslim Some actions, yes Sahih I don't understand the correlation between an action and a belief For example, doesn't Allah say throughout the Qura'an Alladhi na aamannu wa amilu s-salihaat He talks about belief, those who believe And those who do righteous actions So Allah clearly separates belief from actions And you're trying to bring them together, why? So belief can be kufr by itself I agree with that, I understand that And speech can be a kufr And actions, your mere action can be a kufr For example, sabbun nebi s-salihaat It renders any and everything in your heart Your heart, totally goes If you insult the messenger s-salihaat You're a disbeliever That action alone is enough to tell us you're a disbeliever Whether you were joking Or whether it doesn't matter Sabbun nebi s-salihaat Insulting the messenger s-salihaat Kufr, mocking the religion is kufr You know the famous ayah La ta-atadiru qad ka-fartum ba'da imanikum Don't look for excuses After they mocked the prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam And they mocked the religion They came to the prophet trying to look for excuses And they tried to look for a way out And Allah said to them La ta-atadiru Don't try to look for excuses Qad ka-fartum You have now become disbelievers You're labeled disbelievers So the action itself is a disbelief So ahlu sunnah when it comes to kufr Where it occurs from They believe it occurs from the limbs It occurs from speech And it also occurs from a person's belief Okay, what about the hadith that I have in front of me Where the messenger sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said No one will enter paradise in whose heart Is an atom's weight of arrogance And no one will enter hell Whose heart has an atom's weight of faith So this is talking about If my belief in my heart My heart is good It just has an atom's weight of faith It won't enter the hellfire I won't be a disbeliever in other words But you're saying that your heart could be good But your actions render you a disbeliever Aren't you contradicting this hadith? You see what we have to do when it comes to the textual evidence The Quran and the sunnah Is that we have to bring them all together We can't put a cherry pick And say we want to take this one And we want to abandon this one And we want to take this one The deviated groups Every one of them They took what was in favor of them And what they thought was in line with their belief The khawarij came and they took the ayah Bala man kassaba sayyiatan Wa hatat bihi khatiyatun Fa ulaika ashaabun nara hum fiha qalidun Like anyone who does a sin Bala man kassaba sayyiatan Anyone who doesn't sin What does the ayah say? Bala man kassaba sayyiatan Wa hatat bihi khatiyatun Fa ulaika ashaabun nara hum fiha qalidun So they said this ayah shows that If you do any sin That you're in hellfire forever Not knowing that the sin That's been referred to here is shirk Okay This same thing when it comes to these evidence Generally speaking Those who use those evidences Who use those evidences to say That there's no kufr that can happen from the limbs Are the murjiah A deviated group that went against The belief of Ahl al-Sunnah So we have to bring all of those Textual evidences together I just gave you an evidence right now I clearly gave you an evidence Which is Don't look for excuses after they insulted the prophet After they mocked the religion Allah said don't look for excuses you are You disbelievers So we have to bring all of those Textual evidences together Okay You touched on it just now And I want to explore a little bit I just feel like I've given you a general answer Let me give you a more detailed answer Okay fine no problem That hadith that you brought Yeah And other hadiths What we have to understand is that Sabbun nebi sallallahu alaihi wa sallam Salt in the prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam And it's salt in the religion It renders what's in your heart There's nothing There's no musts, anything left anymore All of that is gone So that's actually in line with the hadith Because there is no There is a relation between the external And the internal Of course But the person This action alone Has shown us And it's indicated to us That there's nothing in your heart Okay So there can't be nothing left Because of the relationship between the External and the internal I'm not saying that the kufr Can never happen from the limbs But it really happened from the heart No I'm not saying that I'm saying that it happened from the limbs Okay It happened from your limbs And you're careful because of what you did By salt in Allah az-wajallahu And his messenger Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam Okay, fine You just mentioned the belief of khwarij And I want to explore that In a little bit more detail You said that they Consider someone who commits major sins To leave the fold of Islam Why is this not correct? Doesn't Allah say In the Qur'an Ifara'ita min it taqadah Ilaha hu hawaa Have you not seen the one Who takes his desires to be his god? When somebody commits a sin They usually do it out of desire So he's committed shirk with Allah Because he's taken it as a Lord Besides him The ayah Ifara'ita min it taqadah Ilaha hu hawaa It doesn't necessarily show He's a kafir But what it means here is that The innovator, for example Would then fall under that hadith That ayah Because he's taken His own whims and desires As to legislate the permissibility Of an action That wasn't legislated by Allah And his messenger The same thing The minor sin will fall under that Why are you just restricting It to the major sin That ayah Yeah according to that According to this ayah Correct Why are you saying this isn't true? So you have to understand You're going to have to say Any person who goes Gives Allah and his messenger Even once has done shirk According to this ayah That ayah doesn't show that The ayah shows Those people Who have chosen to worship Other than Allah Then this is kufr akbar Okay And then those who have chosen To follow their desires That they are sinners This is not a masalah Ahlul sunnah ever differed upon It's a masalah ijma'a Muqarrar It's a unanimously agreed upon Someone can become a kafir By taking other than Allah Aiz wa Jalla And he becomes a kafir Because he worship other than Allah Aiz wa Jalla That's one thing that needs to be understood But the other Flipside which is If a person does a sin Yeah And he goes against Allah's command Without shadow of a doubt He has gone against Allah's way And that which Allah sanctioned And he has followed his desires Over Allah's commandment But it doesn't make him a disbeliever But he's disobeyed Allah And his messenger Oh without shadow of a doubt So what about the ayah So what about the ayah So what about the ayah Allah doesn't love the kafir The one who Sorry just to give the English translation Say obey Allah and the messenger If they turn away i.e. they do not obey Allah as messenger Then indeed Allah does not like The disbelievers This is a person who does I'rad kully It's one of the forms of kufr Which is that the person fully turns away From Allah as messenger Externally and eternally And doesn't give any consideration to it But the i'rad al-Juz'ee Which is partial Abandonment of Allah's religion Let's make a person a kafir Okay What if the person considers What he's doing is permissible For example Drinking alcohol is a major sin On its own it doesn't take Someone outside of the fold of Islam Do we agree on that What if the person actually believes Drinking alcohol is permissible I'm allowed to drink alcohol Does he then become a kafir Yeah so You said that drinking alcohol is a major sin We've agreed that's a major sin Then the person says that it's Yes halal for me There's no problem And beautiful that you mentioned that To say that it's Sorry For the person to drink alcohol Is not making a halal for themselves What's making a halal for themselves Is that they believe it's halal for them If they say that, yeah So it's good that you mentioned the word believe I'rad kully Is that the person believes this is halal for them Yeah that becomes kafir That becomes kafir So what if someone has been doing that their entire life Isn't this then an indication that they actually believe It's permissible for them Continuation of this action And consistency It doesn't make it Is the halal necessarily We can't make a person kafir Because of the mujarra del fi'al Because of a A mere fact of doing something for too long Or continuation of it Okay fine The final principle I want us to agree upon Before we move on to the issue of the rulers Is the issue of shirk Shirk obviously is a specific action That has a specific ruling Do you agree with me that if somebody commits shirk They leave the fold of Islam Without any excuse, that's it They've just gone outside the fold of Islam Yeah shirk akbar in general Takes the person out of the fold of Islam La shakal al-arif without a doubt Okay good Let's now talk about the issue of the rulers The muslim rulers Before we move on do you agree that In most of the muslim countries if not all of them The rulers are not ruling by the sharia In its totality The law of Allah I can't talk about that because I haven't Observed all countries So the majority of the countries Let's talk about the majority of the countries You've seen that in many of these muslim countries Alcohol is permissible Ribba, interest-based banks is permissible Rather the one who takes out an interest-based loan He is punished if he doesn't pay the interest In the courts that they've set up This is obviously ruling by other than The Quran and the Sunnah Okay Then what about the ayah in Surat al-Ma'idah Where Allah says وَمَلَّمْ يَحْكُمْ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولَائِكْهُمْ وَالْكَافِرُونَ Whoever does not rule by what Allah has sent down Then they are the disbelievers Surely this then applies to the muslim rulers That we just agreed are not Ruling by what Allah sent down Okay let's agree on some points Number one You kept mentioning the concept of The rulers and the rulers and the rulers As though you restrict the issue of ruling by other What Allah sent down only on the rulers It's like you're restricting only to them Okay go on carry on What I mean by that is وَمَلَّمْ يَحْكُمْ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولَائِكْهُمْ وَالْكَافِرُونَ It's not restricted only to the To the muslim rulers So who else is it applied to? You and I In what sense? Okay good So the ayah says وَمَلَّمْ يَحْكُمْ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ The one man here is general And then Ma again which is in there as well Is a general term Okay So man who means whoever The ayah says whoever Isn't that what the translation says? Yes whoever Whoever So it's anyone So a great scholar is like Ibn Hazm And an Imam Ibn Utaymi They mentioned That ruling by other than what Allah sent down Subhanahu wa ta'ala Also refers to your own actions So what you're referring to is Like Ibn Hazm in his book Al-Fisal When he says وَمَنْ فَعَلَا فَأَعْكَمْ Whoever does an action then he is ruled This is what you're talking about now Okay but you'd agree with me That certain terms in the Arabic language Have a definition that is zahir That is apparent And the apparent definition of ruling Is to set legislation, set laws Then there might be a muawwal definition Which is like an interpreted meaning Which might be to commit a sin Or something like this Why are you trying to go towards The muawwal meaning and leaving the zahir Leaving the apparent The zahir is actually to say that It's everything Because of the ayah وَإِذَا بُشِرَ أَحَدُونْ بِالْعُونْتَةَ وَطُوَ مُسْودًا وَهُوَ كَظِيمْ يَتَوَارَ مِنَ الْقُومِ مِنْ سُؤِمَا بُشِرَ بِهِ أَيُمْسِكُوا عَلَا هُونِنْ أَمْيَدُسُوا فِتْتُرَابِ أَلَا سَاْمَا يَحْكُمُونْ What does that mean sorry Allah is referring to the pre-Islamic era Where they buried the girls alive They buried the girls alive When they buried the girls alive Allah Azawajalla referred to their action Of burying these young girls alive Allah said refer to it as أَلَا سَاْمَا يَحْكُمُونْ What an evil ruling they were doing حُكُمْ So the word حُكُمْ is their own wrongdoings was referred to it as well You see my point So you can't now restrict it to that meaning And plus when we see a term in the Qur'an We have to use other verses from the Qur'an to prove it So the word حُكُمْ is not restricted To just the judging between two people It's also referring to your own actions Okay That's one number one Number two Let's use the example Shaykh Al-Assam Taymiyyah used When Taymiyyah used the example of من حكمة بين نثنيني Anyone who judges between two children They come to him and they say Uncle, uncle, whose handwriting is better And he goes unjustly Because he's related to one of them So the one he's related to He says your handwriting is better over the other one فقد حكمة بغير ما انزل الله He's judged by other than what Allah sent down So the issue of حكم بغير ما انزل الله restricting it to the leader is the first mistake many people fall into Okay, but do you understand Using your common sense at the very least Do you understand that there is a difference between someone judging between the handwriting of two children and someone legislating in an entire country that a ribber is Halal A ribber is not a sin It's fine, you can drink alcohol You've got to understand there's a difference between the two The sins are not the same The sins can always be different But it's still a sin You can't take it to Khufra You're right in the sense of saying this sin is bigger than this sin It's true Because the number of people who are coming under it is more in number The people who are oppressing is more in number There's no denying the fact that this sin is a bit bigger than this sin What you're talking about is a teqthim and teqthim Sin a sin Because it's a large number now it automatically becomes Khufra Okay, so you're saying according to this ayah both of them are still sins Ah, another question Another point I want to bring out the ayah that you just quoted Are you saying that you're taking the ayah for it's apparent that you want to say Khufra is major? Yes This is the belief of the Qawarij The reason why I say this is the belief of the Qawarij is because I just prove to you that your own action is what? Hukm Okay Anyone who does major sin to you has to be a kafir then Because you took the ayah as it's apparent So what is it then if it's Allah says So we say that He said He said Meaning? It's a kufr before the major kufr Is that actually authentic the attribute to Ibn Abbas or is it a statement of Tawus? Ibn Abbas is authentically transmitted to him The senate for that hadith is Ibn Jaleel Al-Tabari narrates it in his Tafseer Okay He brings Hanadi Ibn Sarri who he heard it from and also Ibn Waki' who both of them heard from Al-Waki' and Al-Sufyan Ma'amal Ibn Rashid Abdullah Ibn Tawus Ibn Tawus Ibn Qaisan and Abdullah Ibn Abbas the senate here is No one weakened the senate over 40 scholars authenticated it Wali Daliq Ibn Uthaymin he said the ones whose hearts are sick are the ones who will go and try to weaken it Ibn Uthaymin Rahim Allah clearly said that this had ayah the only person who has taken it for it's apparent and said it's kufr akbar adha khawar they're the only ones who said it they're the only ones who said it I just want to bring you a consensus a consensus that Luni Ba Adhan what Allah sent down is a major consensus there's no difference between I've got a consensus that says it's kufr I'm going to come to it right now okay no problem give me yours first now I'll give you mine okay I'll give you mine insha'Allah the first consensus is Ibn Abbar Ibn Abbas he said Ibn Abbas Rahim Allah he says in his Kitab the 16th volume page 358 he says what? be oppressive in your leading other than what Allah sent down yeah fil hukmi in your ruling he said of course the one who deliberately does it the one who deliberately does it and he's aware of what he's doing ignorance is of course his excuse so we have these consensus this is a major sin okay so the ijma'a that I'm going to bring you is first of all a statement from Ibn Taymiyyah and this is found in volume number 28 page number 524 where he says so if you look at the statement he says what does that mean? you use the English translation as the word permit this issue of so what do you mean by let's look at what what does that mean in English just like the rulers are making okay let me say something I feel like this is very important that we say this six of them are by consensus there's no difference of opinion and three of them are there there's difference of opinion the six that are is if the ruler has juhud juhud means he believes in his heart this is the rule of Allah but he rejects it from the outer he's a kafir number two he rejects it from the heart and externally it rejects it as well he's a kafir okay number three he makes a halal which is to say this is halal which is to say this he has to say it he's doing is not enough what's the evidence for the condition of having to say it tell me that you just use right now he says statement like that meaning in English he believes it in his heart and then he affirms it with his tongue okay I'm gonna come to a very very good point inshallah so is to halal is to believe it in your heart and to verbal vocalize it okay the person vocalizes it and says this is halal man what's the problem this is nothing wrong with it how much have I mentioned four right three maybe juhud takdeeb is to halal and the fourth one is at tafdeel he goes better than the law of Allah better than the law of Allah he gives presidents to this one okay number five he makes it equal to the rule of Allah okay number six is he attributes this ruling to the religion of Allah take someone these six are okay there's no difference of opinion okay the one that you just mentioned to me it falls under right so what not to mention the context of that statement of sheikh al-islam is actually in the context of the tatar he was talking to about so but why can't that apply to the modern day world the tatar were different in the way they ruled they believed yasik was the god the man that they were worshipping and their leader they saw him as an ilah that he's a that's very important that you take this fatwa of the sheikh and you what you understand it correctly you I haven't still been proven otherwise in my fatwa which is that the consensus is ruling by other than what Allah said down is a major sin if you say it's not major sin then you are saying anyone who does a sin major sin he's a kafir no not necessarily let me bring another statement this time of Ibn Kathir in al-Bideh when he had and he says and again I know you're going to say this is in the context of the tatar because it is but I'm still I still don't understand why we can't take the generality of the statement and he doesn't just mention anything about permitting because really when you look at the word permits I know in the English language anyway it could mean permit as in believe in your heart that it's permissible or it could mean making a law that is making it permissible do you get what I'm saying we're talking about sharia issue we're not talking about worldly issue here so whoever leaves the clear sharia which was revealed to Muhammad Ibn Abdullah the seal of the prophets and takes the hukum takes the ruling to other than it from the laws of the kafir which are abrogated he has disbelieved okay he doesn't mention anything about believing it's permissible rejecting it he doesn't mention any of these conditions that you mentioned so what about the one who takes the hukum to the yasiyuk the law of the tatar like you mentioned and puts it before it ah underline that word for me okay puts it before it whoever does that he is disbelieved by the hijma of the muslim so why do you want to underline puts it before it I believe he's called for Akbar again he's tafzeel he's given virtue over it okay again he comes under the six that I mentioned he says this takes precedence over the law of Allah he's a kafir for that you see these fatah of these ulama they need to be understood they can't be cherry picked my statement of Ibn Abdullah shows that the hukum other than Allah in the haddidati in and within itself is a kabirah from the Kabir he said the scholars are unanimously agree in agreement to be oppressive in your ruling to rule by other than what Allah sent down basically he said that is from the major sin the one who does it deliberately and has the knowledge of what he's doing okay so if we don't agree on that point then our discussion would generally not go the right way ruling by other than what Allah sent down has to be seen as to be a major sin anyone who says keep this in mind anyone who says ruling by other than what Allah sent down jumlatan wa tafsila unrestrictedly is kufr akbar then this is the madhab al khawalich ma qalabi a'alim one a'alim from Ahlus Sunnah anyone at hadda I challenge anyone to bring me one scholar who said ruling by other than what Allah sent down jumlatan wa tafsila unrestrictedly like that is kufr akbar I dare anyone to bring me one scholar who said it okay let me take up that issue over there sheikh bin bayaz in his treaties refuting arab nationalism on page 39 he said those who set laws that contradicted the Quran and he said about that and that is great corruption clear kufr and clear apostasy sheikh bin bayaz rahim allah wa ta'ala ibn al-ubaz is fatwa is one of the most ma'aruf fatwa what he comes worried about then what Allah sent down ma'aruf meaning meaning well known established okay sheikh bin bayaz has had a discussion with another great scholar ibn jibri rahim allah wa ta'ala it's documented it's even recorded and i have the transcription of it okay where they discuss the issue of ruling by other and what Allah sent down sheikh bin bayaz believed all of the nine forms that i mentioned that i i haven't mentioned the other three which is takneem and al-istibdal in English these three remember six i said that was kufr three there's a difference of opinion okay there's no unanimous agreement the first one is that takneem takneem actually means that this individual who has chosen the ruler he initiated he made the ruling he created this ruling and then he rules by it he formalized it he set the rules okay that's takneem and then we have atashiri aam which is and now we establish the rule of Allah he changes the rule of Allah and the constitution he makes it into a man-made law and then he forces the people to follow it okay that's called atashiri aam and istibdal which is to just change the rule of Allah with any other ruling okay so these three there's no point of us discussing it because there's a difference of opinion that exists there these three ibnubaz said they're not kufr akbar they're not kufr akbar okay his fatwa is ma'roof and no one argues with sheikh ibnubaz no, sorry no one argues that that's not ibnubaz's fatwa everyone knows that that's his view rahimallah it's well known it's ma'roof it's in his majmu'ul fatawa rahimallah rahmatan again I do want to say something to you though yeah the scholars are not the ones who do takfir i remember i said to you the beginning al-kufr al-kufr al-haqallahi thumma rasoolihi bil nasi yathbutu la bi qawli fulani mankana rabbu l-alameena wa'abduhu qat kafarahu fadakadu l-kufrani only Allah is the best to take a make takfir okay individuals can't ruling by other than what Allah sent down subhanahu wa ta'ala it's a major sin it's by consensus there's no difference of opinion all those fatwas they're misunderstood they pay cuts they're played around with I'll be very honest with you the fatwa ibn abdelbar was not the only one who transmitted it but al-abbas al-Qurtu he mentions the same as well in his kitab al-muffin that the ruling by other than what Allah sent down is a major sin the best is the sinna unless it comes with one of those six that you mentioned those six there's a consensus that is kufr so there's an exception these three need evidence okay let's talk about those six then let's focus our conversation on those six because we both agree that if the ruler falls into one of these six then he leaves the fold of Islam good the first one you mentioned al-juhud al-juhud what was the definition of this one again? al-juhud means I I I is that he shows apparent yeah that which he doesn't believe in his heart like in beliefs sorry like Firaun sorry Firaun was claiming that he was a supreme lord but Allah told us he was lying he didn't believe that in his heart okay great so the person in his heart believes that the laws of Allah are correct and they're superior etc but apparently when he's ruling over his nation he's setting laws that are other than Allah this is exactly what the rulers are doing no I said to you that's from my point juhud means I don't believe in the ruler you don't kill her he rejects it in his heart not in his heart we don't know in his heart jahud is not doing it from his heart he's doing it out to the people okay but the difference between the takrib and juhud is you can't tell the heart right because you can only say the power so the takrib and juhud are the same from the angle of how he looks from the outer so you're saying that the person has to regardless of what he believes in his heart he has to openly say I reject the rules of Allah that's what you're saying number one okay fine or he sees it to be halal because remember to me ruling by other than Allah is a what major sin exactly major sin you don't become a kafir for just doing it unless you come into one of these six conditions okay let's explore the second condition al istikhlal do we not have a principle in the religion that we judge by what is apparent so if apparently this ruler is allowing riba allowing alcohol does he not believe that in his heart it's sinna from the apparent it's a sinna you have but the ibn al-qayyim said that the vessel sweats what is inside showing that he's a sinna and you mentioned this a couple of weeks ago showing that he believes that it's permissible if he's making it permissible for the people Shahid what we have to understand is if the action is kafir in and within itself this action is kafir like insulting Allah and his messenger we don't ask you did you see it halal or not we need that the action is kafir itself that's it you've left the religion okay does that make sense yeah it makes sense yeah we agree with one of those principles at the start so if an action is kafir in and within itself it doesn't require istikhlal and druhud and tighib it doesn't we don't ask you for that okay we don't no the action itself is kafir it's not pain like in ruling by other than what Allah said it's like drinking khamar it's like committing sinna as in the sense they're all major sins sinna doesn't become halal for the person doing all of their life she's got a boyfriend for 30 years or 40 years it doesn't make her a kafir because of that it's a major sin that is what many people tend to not understand and the sad thing is and I have to mention the argument for some of the people who say that they say I agree with you if they were here some of them would have said I agree with you hey would you agree with me they all say ruling by other than what Allah said down is what it's a major sin I'm with you and he's I agree with you you'll say I agree with you but I don't believe and I don't agree that and the technique and the stubbornness that they fall under they are independent they are kafir by themselves that's some of the some of the groups that's what they argue okay you see my point I say to them this it's a it's playing with the people's brains and minds how is that the shari'ah never distinguishes between things that are the same it doesn't give them two different rulings the technique and the shari'ah and the stubbornness all three of them is ruling by other than what Allah said down the only real difference is the quantity has changed now yeah I see and no one does takfir based on quantity or amount okay okay fine is it refusing to pay there's an act of kafir or is it a major sin Ahlul Sunnah have differed on that issue there is a difference of opinion and Imam Ahmad one of these rewayat and a view is he held was that anyone who refused to pay zakat or doesn't pay zakat that he's a kafir okay but there's also opinion that it's just a major sin which is the strongest now which is the strongest that's the opinion you believe so then why do why did Abu Bakr radi allahu an fight the people who did refuse to pay zakat and call them apostates and take them outside of the religion of Islam if it's not an act of kafir and if they themselves never said that this is permissible I don't have to pay the zakat it was just an action of them no they did the takrib of it this is the call of sheikh al-aslam Ibn Taymi no they did takrib of it they disbelieved in it the ones who refused to pay the zakat they said we're not going to pay to you Abu Bakr that's mentioned in the books of course they didn't just not pay the zakat something else followed up with it they did juhud of the ruling they rejected this rule so they openly said we don't believe we only used to give this to the prophet we're not going to give it to anyone after the prophet they reject his ruling they came with the rejection of the ruling and then he said his famous statement which is Wallahi l-awma ni'a'uni a'uqal and Wallahi if they refused to give me a'uqal which is the rope they use for the camel I would fight with them until they give it back to me plus which is that you mentioned the ayah every time the word kufr comes in the Quran in the sunnah does it always mean major does it always mean major kufr no you're going to say no it doesn't I mean of course I'm not just saying it's no sunnah we have the prophet sallallahu alayhi sallam saying sibab al muslim in sulting the muslim is transgression and killing him is disbelief the prophet said in nada don't become disbelievers after me killing one another killing one another and we know killing is not kufr because Allah said two groups of the believers fight one another but the prophet referred to them as kafir I'm a kufr so kufr is not always major it can be minor as well yeah but I would I believe that's a personally a weak argument because kufr when it comes to the word kufr we can we can have a discussion whether it's major or minor but when Allah says fa ula iqmul kafirun they are disbelievers he's not saying they have fallen into kufr he's saying they're disbelievers Ibn Abbas he's more knowledgeable than you in the ayah correct I just showed that Ibn Abbas it wasn't only Ibn Abbas who said it he's student of Tawus in the case and said it he the others these are the great students of Ibn Abbas who said this we have Tawus who said this we have Ibn Abbas which authentically transmitted from we have those in the three sorry as you know in Majmu al-Fatawa sheikh al-Assam Taymi said when he came to the tafsir of the Qur'an the most knowledgeable people of the tafsir of the Qur'an are the students of Ibn Abbas there's no one like them they're the most knowledgeable people like Iqri and Masa'id Ibn Jubaylin Abish Sha'ata Mujahid Ata Ibn Abi Rabah Tawus these are the students of Aliyah these are the students of Ibn Abbas they're the most knowledgeable in tafsir we have two of the students of Ibn Abbas saying this authentically transmitted from them we have Ibn Abbas himself saying this rahima wallahu ta'ala okay Asad al-Rahman let me ask you a very sincere question be honest with yourself Qunsaada Qunma'a nafsik be completely honest with yourself here do you genuinely believe that these so-called Muslim rulers actually want what is best for the country what is best for the people? I can't speak on that because I would have to know what's in their hearts and their chests I would have to honestly and I don't want to come the day of judgment with any Muslim and speak for what's in his heart and what he intended by it and just because of their actions I can't necessitate that from their heart because this is a belief that the scholar spoke about which is until just because someone's statement looks in a particular way or seems a particular way you can't necessitate from there that this is some rulers as you said they have pressure on them they have pressure being put on them and this is why they're doing it others may have a bad intent to destroy Islam all of them is possibility but I can't speak and say whichever of those it is like I can't say it for any other Muslim I can't speak about his intention I don't know what's in their hearts Okay I want to now move the discussion on to another part which is one of the principles we agreed at the start is that if somebody commits shirk they leave the fold of Islam without any excuse of al-istikhlal, al-juhud, al-taqthib these kind of excuses that you've mentioned we don't need to establish these kind of excuses my argument now is that ruling by other than Allah is shirk Allah says in the Qur'an in al-hukmu illa lillah that the ruling is only for Allah so surely this shows that if somebody rules by other than what Allah has sent down it's a form of shirk What about if somebody creates like Allah Tabarak is it not only Allah's action What do you mean by create something from scratch The ruling of actions of Allah Yes, no doubt What about creating Creating from scratch is only for Allah No, but creating in general is the actions of Allah Right Yeah, creating in general is an action of Allah Yeah This is also the action of Allah Right Ruling is a right that is given to Allah alone Yes No doubt Rulings are for him Subhanahu wa ta'ala What would you take the Hadith of the Prophet As-Salaam where he said that that that that Meaning The ones who have the severest punishment of the day are those who do pictures who create like the creation of Allah So it sounds like shirk So you're going to say the ones who draw pictures are kufar Okay Okay To wrap up this particular episode Why don't we summarize some of the important concepts for example where did this issue and this methodology of making take fear of taking the Muslim rulers outside of the fold of Islam Where did this originate from? It came from a group known as the khawarij And that's why Sheikh al-Islam said This was the first of the first of the first of the first of the first of the first of the first of the first of the first of the first group were the khawarij first number first group And Sheikh al-Islam is in another place he said khawarij they are the first ones who place disbelief on the Muslims be through be based on sins where you kaffirun man khalafun fee bida atihim and they also place takfir on anyone who oppose them in the innovation and they permit his blood and his wealth I asked the khawarij that's why I wanted to say Salah Al resposta And he sent me 이거는 I had decided that his word and I gave him部分 I told him that I will teach him later in from the Prophet. It's reached multitude narration. They've made Takfeel of the Muslims based on major sins. Al-Sunnah believed when it comes to major sins that it decreases your Iman. That it doesn't take you out of the fold of Islam. The poet he said, The one who commits major sin, he's a transgressor. He's a criminal. It reduces his Iman. We're fearing for him. We're scared that he might end up in hellfire. That's a reality. Lacking to say that a major sin becomes kufr Akbar. That's dangerous because you're running about other than what Allah said down. What are some of the dangers of this methodology? Well, particularly in the modern world, are the Khawarijahs in the historical group that existed in the past? What are some of the dangers of this methodology in the modern world? The dangers of this methodology is sheikh al-Islam, as I just mentioned in his statement, which is they then permit the people's blood because they say you're a kafir and then they permit your wealth as well. And then your wife is no longer with you. And then they don't, you know, a lot of things come from it, bloodshed, massacre, killing. All of that comes from their belief. It doesn't just stay as a concept that is discussed in the masjid or it's discussed in a circle. It's actually becomes a very dangerous concept where the person later places permissibility of the blood of everybody who goes against him. And then their wealth, he will take it. And it's exactly what we see ISIS and their likes doing to the Muslims today, which is they took al-Hukum bighaylima, inshaAllah, they took it as what? Kufr akbar. And so then they started to label every and any leader to be a kafir. And they just took the path of their forefathers, the khawarij. Okay, what is your final piece of advice just to wrap up this episode to those who may be inclined to this kind of methodology? Well, my advice to them is these are very big issues, very dangerous issues when it comes to labelling people, kufr, kafir and disbeliever, learn the religion. Ignorance is the greatest enemy that Iblis uses against the people. Educate yourself, learn it. Books have been written about it. I honestly encourage you, one book if you could buy anyone who reads the Arabic language, if you can buy that one book, it's written about takfir and it's written by Sheikh Isama al-Sinani and it has the takdeem and the praise of Sheikh Salah al-Fawzan on it. If anybody who can buy that book of Sheikh Isama al-Sinani with the praise of Sheikh Salah al-Fawzan, they will benefit from it a lot. It has all of this which we mentioned and much more details, discussion in there. One of the best books I've written in this regard. What's the name of the book, sorry? I think it's called Al-Tahreer fi al-Takfir or something like that. Ostehullah Dukhman, it's been a very, very interesting episode. JazakAllah al-Khayran. Until next time, As-salamu alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. I hope you enjoyed and benefited from that discussion. Please do share it with your friends and family members if you feel like they might benefit too and don't forget to hit that subscribe button below so you're notified of any new episodes. Check out www.thehotseatpodcast.com. That's thehotseatpodcast.com. On there you'll find a little bit more information about the podcast and you'll also have the chance to vote for which topic you'd like to see discussed on the show. You can also ask questions on the website to the speaker himself about these contemporary modern day issues. Until next time, fi ima alillahi wassalamu alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh.