 specifically focused on enterprise tax benefits and various employee allowances. So before I go into that, I just want to have a general understanding of my audience here. How many of you have ever tried doing something related to payments, whatever may it be like you know the building something related to payments, a few, that is great. Is it predominantly card acceptance, payment gateways or stuff like that? So great. So I come from the other side, not on the payment receiving side, but creating payment instruments that people could use to make payments. What we felt back in November 2014, that is when I started thinking about digitizing payments and the payment whatever giving a different form to payments completely or making payments formless what I could call it as. That is when I started and I started looking at various options and how we could go about with it. So when I just looked at it, a lot of challenges not in terms of actually receiving payments. Receiving payments is just one of of course is a very important component of it and many of the technology guys have been doing it for several years now through payment gateways which support cards as payment option, banking as payment option and so on and so forth. But what we felt is that there is a need to create more forms of payment or more mechanisms of payment more to speak to extend payment reach to merchants who cannot afford card payments. Card payments are generally considered very expensive in the retail space and in the brick and mortar space. So I just looked at solving that problem. When I just went about looking at that what we realized is that as with many marketplaces it is actually a chicken and egg problem. No payment mechanism will kick off until there are people who are willing to pay with that and no payment mechanism will kick off until there are people accepting that. It is a traditional chicken and egg problem. So my story today, the MVP story today that we are just talking about is like taking one such chapter and how we went about actually solving that problem as a story of our journey. In the sense it is not the complete, it is not all encompassing story but I just wanted to take a small piece of what Zeta has done so far and how we went about iterating over it and what are the various things that we learned at each stage and to come to where we are today. That is what we are trying to do. So before I go in I just want to show what Zeta is today. Just a quick minute on that. So for people who have not seen or known about us, I just want to quickly show you this is the Zeta app. What you have is something what we call as a supercard. It is pretty smart. I will not get into the details. It is not a marketing pitch anyway. So it has various mechanisms to make payments. You can just go to a store and send money to your friend, bank account. You can use what we call as a Zeta code which is a nice six digit code. You can make payment with that and you can just make payment to any store by just selecting the store and sending money to that store. Just quickly walk through and you have in the Zeta app what we call as Zeta cloud cards. Each of them represent various types of money. This what you see as cash pressed card out there is like your traditional debit card or bank account wherever you can just deposit money and take money out or just use it like your premium wallet or whatever it is, a number of things that you can traditionally do with a bank account. And you have something called as a medical card where your employee can actually deposit your medical allowance and you can spend that and there are tax incentives around that. I am not going to the specific details. There is something called a fuel card. There is something called as a gift card and number of other such things like in a typical according to the income tax act there are 26 allowances that are available to salaried employees that they can claim tax benefits on. All of that is completely digitized and represented as what we call as cloud cards. And whenever you are doing a transaction Zeta is smart enough to understand where you are actually spending and accordingly use money that represents particular allowance that is applicable in that particular transaction. That is like if you are just paying at a medical store it deducts money from your medical account so that you get the tax exemption for that. So when you are at a fuel outlet and you have a fuel allowance and if you are making a payment at a fuel allowance Zeta automatically deducts money from your fuel card and just ensures that wherever whenever you are transacting whatever is the tax advantage you get it is applicable and it is available by you. And furthermore what we have done is like once I digitize all of these things if I am giving you a medical card and if there is money in the medical card you should be able to directly buy medicines from it. So on and so forth you will see that you can order medicines here and book a doctor appointment here and so on and so forth. And if I if I get a gift card you should be able to use that gift on Amazon KFC whatever it is various brands and various outlets all of that is completely integrated. It just does not end there Zeta has rewards program XYZ other things and it has a what we call as many of you might be familiar with Chrome Web Store we have just integrated similar such store into the app so that you can just actually transact seamlessly and the checkout is taken care of by Zeta. That is an example and we have integrated offers into it where where these various offers from Coupon Dunia or whatever it is all of that is just integrated into one place and you can just avail that. So whatever you are spending whatever even if a penny can be saved in that we give you an option to save that through this all of it okay so but obviously the point I am trying to make is the point I am making trying to make is and it just doesn't end there just to let you know we Zeta also has what we call as optimized all the entire tax benefits part of it spotlight is rewards and recognition that is like whatever various gifts your employees can give and all that stuff expresses for your cafeteria automation we just completely automate the cafeteria payments with an NFC mode of payment through what we call as super tag. Anyway it is a whole list of things I just want to cut short there and just say that okay obviously when I just tell you this very pertinent question is it minimum it's far far from it I couldn't have started a product which says that okay it works like a swiss army knife with 50 things and 50 different ways of doing things and so on and so forth right people would reject me in the day one on the day one or probably my business itself there is no nothing that I would have established as a value prop for my own business okay if I have to say that I have to do this 50 things before I can launch my product right so there is there is practically no way I would have gone down this path when I'm starting it's definitely not minimal is it viable well at the outset if I just say that okay these are the hundred things hundred things put together they make some sense and all of them all these hundred things put together will give you some value well one can hardly say you know I don't know if it is viable right if you cannot you cannot be sure that it's viable right and the is it a product well probably but definitely not one product we're talking about many products it could be a suite of offerings okay so now obviously no startup that I know of should have tried this or should have started here okay and obviously we didn't start this so it's definitely because it's not a minimum viable product okay because we haven't we couldn't have gone to market with all of this and said that okay look it works or look it doesn't work okay the amount of investment that's gone to building any such thing is quite high so obviously we couldn't have started here right actually we did okay back in November 2014 when I when I when I just started looking at you know what we can do with these two payments we realized that a lot could be done and lot could be done by actually creating more value on payment than the mere transaction that is when I'm just exchanging money with one person the value of that should not be just exchanging money paper does that really well without any cost without any friction so much so to speak okay if something is digitized the value should be much higher than that that's a premise with which we have started and there's a huge blueprint this is this is the first mock that we prepared by the way the one that I'm showing is the first mock that we prepared back in December 2014 okay where we said that okay if you're digitizing transaction there should be more value there are various sources of money that can be presented in in one form to the in one simplified form to the user and then we said that okay there is a way to discover merchants and you will be able to discover identify the merchants and you will be able to make transaction with them so on and so forth there are a whole lot of things that have gone into this blueprint before we even started right but obviously I couldn't start that and go take the whole thing build the whole thing and go to market right what is the minimum product that I could actually take to the market and see if it is viable and see if I can just actually go on building thereafter so the story is about how do you sell it the slice how do you sell it given the whole thing that you have in your mind okay how do you go about choosing the date one slice that you can actually go ahead and put to market test whether or not it's working and iterate on on top of it at the point in time so we sell it to the first slice to be meal washers okay you have several of you have probably used this Sodexo meal washers which are this paper washers that you take to you get from your employer take to retailer for and buy food with that okay typically right so we selected that as a first slice now how did we I mean given this whole blueprint of you know there are multiple sources of money and multiple ways of spending it and there are retailers who have card reading machines retailers who don't have card reading machines and so on and so forth all the complexity how did we arrive at this particular thin slice okay thin slice of you know choosing this one small thing called meal washes right obviously there are several tools for all of it like you know you you do a lot of user service you you talk to several users okay because payments is just universal you can just say once I build a payment platform you can do anything on top of it right so but what is the use case that you would just go about picking obviously there is some hypothesis that we came up with okay the fundamental thing that we said is like if I am solving problem it should solve the highest pain possible right and provide the maximum value possible so we took it took a survey among various types of audience one we we went ahead and did a survey of college students and close environments where we felt that okay we needn't have to solve the chicken and that problem or it is easy to solve the chicken and that problem where in when you go to a closed environment like a university campus right okay so we solving the chicken and that problem for the entire country is a much much harder task than solving the problem in a university campus so we went to a university campus and just instead of giving the product out there we just spoke to several merchants we spoke to several students and spoke to them and ask them you know what are the problems that they have and what how do we how do you think that the digital payments can solve the problem okay when when I showed the first mocks okay to the merchants or the users okay users were completely ambivalent about it okay about you know okay I don't care whether you give it or not because because they they don't find it so painful right but when I just spoke to merchants about it uh interestingly they felt that okay the payment is not a big problem okay I have enough number of alternatives you know what what you have shown in your mocks is that okay there is something called feed uh in the mock the initial mock that I said they said that okay my problem is what I see as a value is that okay you're not really solving a problem but what I see as a value is that I can actually reach out to my customers through your app okay what I like is the channel of advertising that you got there called feed okay so payments is not my problem okay so that's the that's the first thing that I actually uh a very interesting insight that we got when we felt that okay change is a big problem in colleges like people uh if you just actually look at a typical student behavior again learn from the survey uh they do a 200 rupee cash withdrawal almost every day they're super expensive people for banks okay they they do uh so there are people who actually do ATM withdrawals four times a week right in in college campuses these are all the insights that we got that when we just looked at it so we felt like okay this is not the audience okay this is not a payment problem that we will be solving okay so we didn't even build the product we just stopped from there so when we just came to uh uh another setup okay we did try two other setups when I came to the another setup when we started speaking to the HR okay what we have what we realized when we started speaking to the corporate what we realized is there's a huge pain in handling that paper okay this is like a treasury job to get those uh washers talk them and give them to the employees and so on and so forth there's a huge pain there when we started talking to the employees instantly HR also happens to be employees of the organization who are also availing those benefits when we started talking to them they felt that okay this is even bigger pain to start using those washers and so on and so forth so we we felt like okay fine Indicatively there's a big problem here let's try solving it I'm not going to get into again technical details of you know what exactly uh is the solution realm looking uh is supposed to be modeled as but let's say we pick this slice okay so now once once we started talking to the people we could clearly see that okay they are able to articulate the problem in many cases when we start up try to solve the problem often we give an excuse that okay the problem is latent okay I do it several times okay when I when I have a theory to say that okay this will work okay and if someone says that no I I don't think it may not work or I don't see that people are actively looking at a solution for this the excuse that I often give to several of my friends or people involved in the product development is the pain is latent they don't they don't realize it the once once you just give an alternative solution to it they start realizing it okay yes it is true in several cases it would be so but but you know once you identify a problem that people can actually articulate okay people can actually articulate that's that's I think is a good place to start from okay if you can identify such a problem that's a good place to start so that's a good problem to solve so we said okay the thinness slice that we could just okay the first picture that I showed you had lots of features and the product that I showed that I showed as a initial product has several things in it but this is the very first slice that we started off with this is the first very first mock and this is the first slice we started giving out to people okay so very simple thing you have a search a text box where you can type in six digits or you know you can just search by name and we'll give you a list of merchants that are nearby okay you can tap that merchant and enter the amount and make a payment enter the amount and say pay the payment is complete unfortunately I don't have that version right now otherwise I would have shown there's a just about five screens that's all this this was January by January we of 2015 okay sorry 20 January of sorry this is not January this is July of 2015 okay July of 2015 no not really in this slice yes in this slice yes okay today zeta can be used to make payments anywhere across the world okay but the the very first slice we picked as I said like payments is universal it's a very very broad thing we the very first slice that we said is like okay you're going to get a list of merchants where you can make a payment okay and you will select a merchant just enter the value that you can make payment enter the value that you want to pay and just say pay you'll get that receipt that the payment is done okay as simple as that that's that's what we did right as a very first slice and this is this is as I said like in July of 2015 that is like we started in April 2015 zeta started our first team was recruited in April 2015 July 2015 we are ready with this product and I remember that date because like July 28th of 2015 there is NASCOM NASCOM HR conference okay so we presented this there okay so this is a simplest thing that we presented now obviously very thin slice nothing too much to invent too much nothing there to brag about it but so simple done shipped and as the I don't know how many of you are aware of this code okay nothing survives contacting the customer for the first time nothing that you thought survives is the simplest thing it's solving a big pain I have already validated the pain with my customer right okay I've just they they're very very clear in their articulation that there's a biggest pain that they are handling month on month not not like you know from a HR perspective and from a user perspective they are handling it like every every single day okay so it's a big pain that I'm solving okay but what could go wrong right so when I when I just went ahead all these tiny faces okay these are the these the part of the initial team that we had it was the NASCOM HR booth out there in the back drop okay and we have several people from HR fraternity who came and said like we love what you guys are doing it's brilliant I mean we did we didn't expect that okay it can be this way so on and so forth okay it's all great but what what turned out to be like they're just asking one question right but where can I use this okay but where can I use this obviously I couldn't have gone there without a answer for that question my answer has been that okay if you confirm okay within 30 days or if you say that okay you want to try if you as a company want to try within 30 days I'll convert all the merchants in your vicinity to start accepting data payments okay very I thought like it's a very very valid viable answer okay you should be convinced because I told you that okay this is in 30 days I'll definitely convert and obviously you're not paying anything to me and everything is fine you should just try it out okay not even one not even one said they will give it a shot okay first find an answer for this then we'll look at it okay it's solving a big pain and they they have all the incentive to try it out because I'm saying that I'm going to charge you nothing okay there is no cost in adoption still they don't want to do that right yes fortunately we are part of direct type group with a with about 1200 people back then this by before we went to NASCon summit people were already using it within our cafeteria for making the payments and so on and so forth oh okay so we spoke to merchants okay we what gave us confidence is we spoke to merchants we showed them the thing so the biggest factor again for the merchant side of the story is like the meal washer companies like Sodexo, Eden Red and other guys they charge merchant close to four percent okay depending on the size of the merchant nature of the business they charge four to seven percent of the transaction value as their fee okay and merchants take these papers they have to submit to the respective companies and they they get the payment back in 45 days okay that's like another one percent lost in the working capital cost okay so the net cost of payment for a merchant is five to seven percent and I was giving the merchant at zero price okay so he's so excited I mean he the merchant we never had a problem with the merchant well we had certain problems I'll talk about it from a model and trying perspective merchant never said I won't try okay so he's fine just bring me the users so the merchant has always given us the assurance that if you bring me the users why would I say no to it just go get it so we had that confidence from the merchant side of story and also what we are asking from the merchant is nothing this all that I showed is on the user side on the merchant side he doesn't even need to have a smartphone or he doesn't need to have anything digital just a simple phone would work okay so that's how we build this solution we just simplified everything for the merchant but coming back to the user side of the things okay we felt that okay this is a very viable thing when I'm just talking to the to the HR to try it out okay obviously nobody one was willing to try so we had to abandon the entire approach and start looking at what we could do with the merchant okay obviously we have the important problem the what we thought of the chicken and egg okay is and we are going to solve the problem is not solved so we just picked up next slice we said that okay how can we just make it completely oblivious or you know make the merchant network redundant itself okay one one problem is to eliminate the problem itself like one solution to the problem is eliminate the problem itself if people are asking for merchant network why can't I just eliminate the need for merchant network okay no why why should there be a merchant network so to speak so what we said is like okay well let's give it a complete spin okay there is a thing like okay whenever the user has spent on me asking to just upload a bill okay just ask him to select the merchant where he has spent that money ask him to upload the bill we will validate of course it's a very difficult thing it's not a viable thing but it's definitely minimal thing that I could just start off with because one of the theories of doing a startup is like don't worry about viability in the beginning so that's a lesson that's a that's a theory I was subscribing to back then so just try if it works right okay try if it works so we just went ahead and just said that okay forget about everything else let your employees go and spend let them upload the bill we will validate and verify that it is actually a food spend in that case we'll just convert that meal money if it is a food spend we'll convert that meal money into the regular cash and they can they can transfer it to the bank account okay very very simple from that perspective right you just I don't know how I mean like you see this right you you don't have to you don't have to have a merchant network so to speak okay the wherever your employees goes to let's say for example my pitch to the HR is wherever your employee goes to he will just simply after making a payment take a picture of the bill and claim his allowance on that particular spend take a picture and claim his allowance on that particular spend very straightforward okay so yes this time I saw some conversion okay in terms of like okay there are about less than one percent but at least some people have converted and started adopting this obviously it further couldn't continue because the competition cried fault about it okay they they started saying that okay no this is not how meal should be implemented as an allowance and so on and so forth again there are the whole legal story around that I'm not going to get into that so what what we felt as a really simple shortcut a hack to bringing out a product and saying that okay we cut off all the dependencies that need to be that need to that are traditionally assumed right we thought like it's a very powerful hack that we came up with we just completely abandoned the in the chicken and egg again going back to the chicken and egg problem we completely abandoned one side of the story and we should be able to roll it out but it didn't happen that way right again this is a learning from the market so we still had to solve the chicken and egg problem so we adopted the brute force approach that is okay fine I'm not able to get the customer let me get the merchant because there's a lot of readiness from the merchant perspective okay so we use brute force it's not a product per se a product technology problem that we are solving here but we use brute force to actually approach the merchants right so when we approach the merchants as you would expect when I say I'm giving it up giving it for free they will all say yes awesome give it for me for free right after a week they will forget about the product because there's no customer coming and asking for it okay just one week after if even if I go and say that okay do you accept zeta what is zeta okay and more importantly what happens is that okay at the store there are no in a family run store there are probably three or four people at the counter at different points in time okay in a in a large retail store it's a completely different story okay then the churn rate is close to 20% month on month the people who are operating the cash counters okay so this is a huge training cost when when you had to give a solution these are all not factors that we have considered when we proposed this solution this is just like we said that there is no technology cost that's out there for the merchant okay he should be able to start accepting it so again while we tried using brute force there are big things our solution was rejected because you know in all these large format places they couldn't change like let's say you go to big bazaar to accept a payment they have to change their post machines and they have to train lots of people which are the factors that we haven't considered is grossly rejected by them right and so therefore we had to go back to the drawing board again okay so the solution we had to look at is like you know again this is the same problem how do you go about looking at it ideally you know at this point in time we could we could up pivot it into some other problem okay but but what we know is that the problem is very valuable right problem was stated articulated by all the people as a pain right and people can see that okay we solve the problem there will be an adoption of it now how do you go about solving it so all these iterations are about that and when I'm just looking at each of these things at every point in time what we tried doing is do the least and take it out and all the things that I said so far were rejected at any point in time when I started looking at it I felt like I have a really awesome solution with the simplest form in which that particular problem could have been solved but it was simply rejected the moment I gave it to the customer right so there is another such story because you know as as you see the product is nowhere what what you're seeing right right now so another such story the simplest thing is okay if we are not able to build a merchant network leverage the existing merchant network visa master card to pay these guys represent a huge merchant network okay leverage an existing merchant network now how do you go about doing that you can simply go and issue a card to every every person who is making a payment right that's a very simple way of doing it every bank does that so but but we did a spin on that why because we thought it's even more simpler to give a card to a merchant now imagine okay a scenario where you are going to a merchant and he has a card okay when you go walk to his shop and say that I want to make a payment okay you say that he asked how much I mean like whatever the transaction happens and you are you're saying that I will make a payment of 200 rupees and he is taking his card swiping it entering 200 rupees and asking you for a pin and he gets 200 rupees you didn't give him anything right so well I'll I'll give it one more stab of explaining it explanation so this is what we called as collect card right the collect card is something the a card that user will not have the person collecting money will have that is the merchant will have the collect card okay he will swipe on the regular card reading machine right and enter the money that you would have wanted to make a payment right you know 400 rupees let's say he enters the 400 rupees and just to take that money from you he asks you for a pin you give him a pin he enters that pin and he gets the 400 rupees right this is a kind of a tech tech spin that we just did on the card where we said that people don't even have to carry cards you just have a mobile that's sufficient to make a payment okay so very we felt like you know it's one of the best inventions on the card payment systems we patented it duly and and we said that okay it's going to be welcome with open arms by everybody okay because instead of investing on a card per person you flipped it one merchant will have one card that's all it takes to make money to transfer money okay so the same first version that I showed it works for this mechanism you just go find a shop make a payment you get the transaction code that's the pin okay so the merchant takes the orange color colored card that he has in his pocket his wipes enters the pin and that's all he got 682 rupees into his bank account I'm sorry what kind of danger not really so this pin will work for that 682 rupees at that particular merchant for a brief period of two minutes so I mean like okay so I'm not talking about the tech here just okay whatever we have done right you know assume that okay the the hygiene factors are taken care of okay so what we have given is that okay this is a solution and Eureka moments okay and we just went about yes this is the customer app okay you you just indicated that you want to pay to subway 682 rupees on your amp and we gave you a pin for that particular transaction that's all you have yes merchant swipes his card enters 682 rupees is what he wants to collect okay and ask you for the pin that's all I'm sorry that's all zeta does that okay zeta knows that okay the who the merchant is and everything because the car yeah we know that because you know when the merchant is swiping on his machine we know the machine that's from which the transaction is coming to us and and we also know we gave the collect card the card is given by zeta okay okay so yeah so let's yeah so the point is okay yeah that's thanks thanks for reminding about that yes so the point is a net net okay ignore the magic part of it at the smartness part of the solution okay but obviously it just seemed like a something contra something that just eliminates lots of hops in the equation anybody can just download zeta app and go to any merchant and make a payment whether or not that merchant has a certain kind of a specific instruments for us because he only needs is a 1520 rupee plastic to collect money right or the entire merchant network which is currently accepting mastercard is our merchant network just all I needed to do was give a plastic to them this is a brilliant solution we went to merchants they really loved it and all that stuff okay boom something must have gone wrong right okay so it did go wrong the problem was that when we gave this interface I remember this specific store more okay he said like what nuts are you I mean like where did you come from okay it's all fine whatever theory that you're giving you think my average household wife who buys grocery at my outlet okay do you think she is going to just come here open the app enter the merchant name more okay and she will be online while she doing that enter the merchant name more and enter the digits and finally give me this digits right you must be on pot or whatever it is right okay that's that's that's the thing so we had to go back to drawing board it was rejected by large merchants the small merchants were okay with that okay they didn't have too much I mean they are also like you know first time and they heard that okay they are and you know more often than not all our sales visit convert because they're surprised there's something like this could happen but but when it came to large merchants they completely rejected the solution okay it's just about giving a card the keeping a card at the till that was fine but they said that their customers will never do that or the majority of the customers will never do that so we had to go back again and redo the whole thing okay so with one concept this time where all you require to give is visits okay why do you need to go make the user do all the steps that we were doing so we just completely cut them off and brought down to this the entire app we just removed everything what you would see on the app is just one circle you tap and hold that circle it gives six digits and that's your pen right you just instead of the four digits that you have received after three steps right we tap and hold the circle and you get the six digits and the payment is done right now this is probably the simplest payments have ever happened and you would see on our app also till today this is the mechanism that is in use by several of our customers as on today sorry obviously the the app went through a lot of journey that's all you do you just go and give these six digits you tap and hold you go and give these six digits the merchant will get money from you yeah but but you know it's it's also an identifier not only an authenticator there is a again a lot of science that has gone into it we are not talking about that what what I'm saying what my intent to say here is that you know whatever we thought is simple there is much simpler version there okay we never discovered it okay and each time each time we thought we had a clever move that would solve the problem okay it was clever but when the customer sees it it just seemed to him like a trick or something that that just indicated that we reflected to him that our ignorance of the customer his customer rather okay when I went went to him okay so so many iterations which I would have traditionally considered as simple things like you know what big deal is it to select a merchant and make a payment they were rejected by the customer the simplest things I thought of the simple are easy to execute they were all rejected when we just went when we iterated on it we never would have thought in our head that a payment could be just brought down to sharing those digits right until we were just pushed to that extreme limit to a point where they said that okay no we can't pass up this and each iteration we have just what we thought as a minimal thing that we started off with at each iteration we just stripped off so many things to come down to this one payment method which which would work and no one could argue there is no and by the way this code works even if you are not connected to internet and all that stuff so there is a all those again hygiene factors out there it is just completely brought down to a level where anybody who is even moderately in a trade understands digits and he should be able to make a payment that's that's the level which which to which we were pushed by our customers and we we couldn't have arrived at it in one go so this is like the number of thank you I'm sorry yes that's a as I said this is not the end story the journey is much longer we we went through lot more iterations and a lot many more things yeah that's great thank you but yes we call that as a super car now when well we that's a different aspect of the journey didn't end here okay so this is this is but what actually gave us the maximum acceptance okay so when we just gave this nobody had so to speak any objections thereafter so there is a there is a a lot of adoption in this space but we moved on to issuing card subsequently I'm sorry without showing what sir I don't have a problem with that actually so the point is you can you can do that even today right okay you can go to a guy and just say that okay you can give a band of cash he takes a band of cash and record the sale about what not really sir I don't think so so any any questions any comments there is a flip okay premium QR code is used to identify the merchant okay and after that you push money to the merchant that's pretty much the first flow that we did okay the three screen flow where you select the merchant either through you use a QR code to help you in identifying that merchant or you've got a list and you select a guy select a merchant from there and after that the payment is done okay that's that's that okay and it has several dependencies for example firstly the user should be the biggest hurdle is that the user should be able to do that action itself scan the QR code and do that there are several limitations with respect to QR codes in all this we have done a QR codes there are several experiments that have gone that I haven't been talking about there are hundreds of them actually the problem with QR code is like it doesn't work in several light conditions okay and it depends on line of sight your camera need to be you know depending on where the QR code is and all the stuff it's it's it doesn't work at a wide scale so we just removed all of it to just bring it into visits that can be communicated that can be shown has very limited dependencies in the physical on the physical medium yep yes that's a that's another important aspect we always solve the problem with an assumption that the user doesn't have internet in all the things that I spoke and shown you user needn't have to have internet yeah yeah so traditionally all merchant payments rely on one business model which is merchant pays okay there are more elements to it there is money always when people are parking money there is money always in that okay that's typically referred to as float so there is a float revenue always when when when you're giving keeping money in your savings account there is a float revenue in it there are typically disclassified into multiple models there is a financial revenue there is a transactional revenue and we don't have much of it but traditional players also talk about breakage revenue that is like people put money and forget about it so so a lot of it is about users of this that's the first thing and we our product team the way we structure it is there is a pre and post there's a product manager and he has two associate product managers who will talk about pre product release and who will talk about post product release any particular feature when it is picked okay there is one guy who is looking at what all need to be in the product be even be even before we just actually go and put it to any user that's one one aspect that we take care of the elaborate list and that while the product is being built there is a post product manager who actually goes ahead and looks at the feature what are the various things that I need to check to know whether or not this is actually working okay from the time I started rolling it out and we have this various mechanisms to do staggered roll out okay we don't just simply rely on the app stores we have higher level controls so we control the visibility of feature each time when I when I'm just giving an iteration the visibility is completely controlled we do a staggered roll out and the post product manager actually looks at you know whether or not people are behaving in the anticipated way or not okay that's one aspect but that's after that's now where we have some scale in the initial days is the hard work you just have to go talk to the user see him how he is using it see the merchant how he is using it so on and so forth okay