 Oh my God. I can't believe I'm saying this. This is terrible. I got this call coming up with someone that's doing research. I think he's doing a PhD on being a vehicle. A overseas Vietnamese hopefully discover something that I didn't know before about the Vietnamese overseas experience. Hopefully find out some more things about myself. Yeah, I don't even know what he's going to ask, but I'm sure it'll be fun anyway. So let's connect to the call. Yeah, good. How are you? I have always been interested in the issues of being being Vietnamese, being born in one country, and the reasons for people returning and living in Nam. So that's kind of what sparked my research. Any of your personal name details like that will not be published at all. So you won't need to worry about, you know, talking shit or anything like that. Yeah, it's all good. First off, could you tell me what you were doing in Vietnam when you first had lived there? I actually went back to travel. So the story is my parents retired in 2010, 2011. So my excuse was if I didn't find a job I would go back and spend six months in Southeast Asia, you know, do the whole backpacking thing. Vietnam would be my base. It was just six months. That was whatever was planned. Four months into it, I sort of ran out of money and my parents were like, why don't you get a job to fund the next two months of your travel? I was like, okay, yeah, that sounds good. And then I actually, I got a job at this tech company and that kind of spurred my whole working in the tech industry. Where were you born? Where are you? Yeah, where did you go up? So I was born in East London and I grew up in the UK. How would you say that life was like in London in the UK? Not that much racism and everybody was pretty like welcoming because the town was really nice. My school was very nice. I was probably one of three ethnic people in my school. The other one was my sister. I had a pretty suburbian life. I would say non-typical sort of ethnic childhood. I think I was very lucky in that sense. Yeah, how do you describe your cultures growing up? Okay, so this is where it gets quite interesting, right? So my dad is Vietnamese and my mum is born in Vietnam, but her parents are from Hong Kong. So growing up at home, we would speak Cantonese and it was a way for my dad to learn Cantonese. That was the dominant language, right? But when I was younger, I traveled to Vietnam and I could speak Vietnamese because, you know, my dad would leave me at my grandmas or whatever, you know, to about like four or five sort of loss of Vietnamese. So in my household, it was very Chinese dominant. My culture when I was younger was definitely more of a Chinese identity because there was just more Chinese people in the UK and we went to Chinese school and that was really the dominant form. I had never met too many sort of overseas Vietnamese from, you know, the small neighborhood I was in. So that was really the identity, kind of Chinese, British, but of course, like in any kid growing up, it was weird. I didn't really understand, you know, my culture that well. I didn't really want to speak Cantonese or my mother tongue. I would always speak English. It's not until I was like 16 that I really tried to learn my mother tongue. I was almost embarrassed about speaking Cantonese when my friends were in the room at my house or something. It was it was it was one of those. Yeah, so that would be my childhood, I guess it was like this constant struggle to figure out like, you know, who are you, right? Like, because at home, you have a different set of values, a different way to communicate. But then outside, it's contradicting everything your parents believe in. So you almost sort of stumble across lots of different things, right? Like your parents might be like, drinking and smoking is bad. But then your friends are like, it's fine. And your friends parents are like, let me buy you a drink or, you know, what do you want to drink? Or, yeah, it's OK. Have a smoke. So it's just like, yeah, it was super confusing. But, you know, I crossed the boundary so many times with my parents and they eventually sort of gave in. You're kind of embarrassed to speak in Cantonese until you were about 16. What what was what do you think if you could remember back to what that embarrassment or that that feeling was before 16? Sure. I think it was the feeling of like it being weird or kind of alien and other people around me didn't understand it, apart from me and my family, not quote unquote normal and me having this whole other thing that people didn't really understand. Right. Even though the suburb was really nice, but I just I guess it's the fear of being different. I think you're just trying to fit in as a kid, right? You're just trying to conform versus be yourself. So I think that was a big part of it. What was that chain at around 16 that made you feel more open to the idea of speaking in Cantonese or embracing that side of your view? Yeah, I started watching a lot of like Cantonese, like TV and movies and stuff. And I was like, this is awesome. So I started getting into like the whole media and entertainment side of things. And then I remember my dad left to go back to Vietnam for about six months. So it was like me spending a lot of time with my mom and we had, you know, we had a restaurant, so I would be, you know, speaking to her every day and, you know, learning about business. So me and her got really close. And I think that's where I sort of got more interested because I found out I couldn't communicate as effectively as I wanted to with my mom like day to day. So, you know, I think that part of me, as we got closer, I just sort of wanted to learn more and was more interested in the in the fascination of my culture. You speak more about that. You were talking about fitting in and wanting to fit in. How well or not did you fit into the British culture or the dominant culture when you were growing up? I think I fit in fairly well. I think I'm quite adaptable and I've always been. So I mean, that's why also we're able to sort of like move around, right? Getting used to a certain culture is fine. I felt like I adapted pretty well. You know, I was into all the things that the kids were into. Was good at basketball, was good at skateboarding when I was younger. And you know, as kids, sports is a huge thing, right? I felt comfortable with that. And I think I did a pretty good job fitting in. You also mentioned that you didn't face that much discrimination. Did you could you talk about any discrimination that you either witnessed or experienced yourself? It would always be name calling. We've got into fights, but I'm not sure if that's a discrimination versus just like male egos. Yeah, I'm sure one time, you know, my friend got punched just because he looked like the weakest Asian dude in the crew. Yeah, and I've been like headbutted at clubs. I'm not sure if it's just because I'm tiny. I'm a pretty short guy. And I don't know if that was a sign of weakness because, you know, the stereotype of Asian men, right? Like the name calling and stuff and and that's happened, you know, numerous times, you know, when I was a little bit older. Typical things like that. How would you say that to the the way that you saw yourself? How did that compare with the way that society saw you? Oh, that's interesting. Well, for example, I used to work, you know, in my family's restaurants, right? And then my aunt had this restaurant and it was it was in the suburbs, like even, you know, further into the suburbs, right? So it's a very white area. And, you know, I would be working a summer job there and I'd be serving customers in the restaurant. And then you you'll hear like these are like well off white people, right? So you think they're quite educated and then. But a lot of times they'll be like, oh, wow, your English is so good. And I was like, what? Like, how do you not know, you know, that there's like immigrants in this country and I'm like second gen or whatever. So and you and you would come across this all the time. I think that society saw me as definitely different and from another place. I don't think I ever. Well, I felt like that a little bit, but I knew that I also belonged, right? Because I had very similar values to my friends. However, you know, since I was 16, I gravitated more towards like my other South Asian friends. So like people from Bangladesh or Pakistan or I had a lot of friends. Like I had a friend from Iraq and Morocco and those are the people like I found I gravitated towards at university just because we had something different about us and our cultures, like, you know, were more similar than than the British white culture, right? So that was like a new world that I was like discovering as I, you know, went to college because college for us started at 16. When you were growing up, how would you say that you identified yourself? Yeah, I would say British Chinese. Yeah, yeah. I mean, my Vietnamese side was completely suppressed just because I didn't know what that was and I didn't really learn about it. And there was no one to really teach us about it. Of course, we'll hear my dad's stories and stuff, right? The strong Vietnamese identity didn't really come through in my surroundings. And were there any any events that or series of events that happened in the UK that motivated you to move to Vietnam? I had been to Vietnam as a kid. It would always be a very interesting place because we would go, you know, two to three years will go once or every two years. And I had actually been there twice on my own with friends when I was like 17 and 19, you know, spent more than a month here. And I just found it to be a very different place and just like everything is very new and very exciting from from a kid. My dad had always said, I wanted I want to retire in Vietnam. And I think that just kind of got into my head a little bit. So when I was younger, I was always like, I want to work abroad. And the first place I thought of identifying as Chinese was Hong Kong. I want to work in Hong Kong. And then and then slowly that morphed to like, I want to, you know, live a part of my life in Vietnam. So as I grew up, it sort of changed because I saw Vietnam. And so what were some of the reactions that you got from important people in your life when you made the decision to live in Vietnam? So I was dating this girl. She had been there travelling with me when I was 19. And she's like, yeah, it's not a place I want to live. And I was like, well, I'm going to go for six months. That didn't go down too well. So so we ended up breaking up, of course. When I was like 20, I think I moved to Vietnam when I was 24, 25. Yeah, my close friends, when I first originally told them, it was like, you know, I was only going for six months, right? So they're like, I'll see you when you get back. And then blink of an eye, I've been away for seven years. So yeah, it's crazy, right? And then, yeah, I don't know. I just don't think they know because they've never been there, right? None of my friends, well, one or two friends have ever visited me from back home. But they don't know what it is. Like Thailand is much more approachable for them. I'm not like hugely sure on their thoughts about me moving abroad. I think I think I just basically told people via social media, but I'm really not sure like their thoughts, to be honest. What about your your parents? I know that you said that your dad, you know, wanted to retire there. Any other reactions that your parents gave you? Yeah, they were pretty happy. My granddad had always tried to convince my dad to come back. So then my dad originally he decided he wanted to come back. So when I was like, yeah, I think I'll stay. I think he was excited and pretty happy. He's like, there's lots of opportunities here. And, you know, my mom couldn't be happier because I look closer to her and she thought it was a good move. And then afterwards, we tried to convince my sister to come and she had been living in London for a bit and then moved to Amsterdam and then now she lives in Hong Kong. But I think she still wants to come to Vietnam, which is quite interesting. If you can remember like the week or first month that you after you decided that, OK, I'm going to I'm going to live in Vietnam. What was that first week, first month like it was exciting because I just found a new job and I realized it was amazing. Like, you know, the industry that I was in was amazing. Like I I never knew about the tech industry. I always knew that I liked technology, right? But to be in like a company from Silicon Valley, but it's in Vietnam. It was yeah, it was amazing. It was like, as soon as I got the job and I started, I knew that I had to figure this thing out. Like I had to, like, let this run its course and follow the flow versus fly back home. And yeah, it was it was it was amazing. It was like so much opportunity. And I was really excited about learning, you know, about this industry. And I almost, yeah, I never thought about I'm going to go home. You know, this was like, I've got to see what this is and I can go home whenever, right, it's going to be the same. And, you know, I went home two years later and everything was still the same. And I felt like I grew so much that home was no longer home. What about like a space or a place that you felt connected to when you or that you spent time in when you first arrived in Vietnam or or you decided to stay in the space that I felt connected to? Well, I think it would be my grandma's house. Like, so I was staying with my dad's family, but my mum's family lives in District 5 and we had spent more time as kids. And obviously, you know, my mum's side, they spoke Cantonese. So I would always felt like that house felt closer to me because, you know, I could speak to my family there, etc. And that would be stuck in my memory. So every time I go back there, it feels like a part of me, right? Like a big part of me when I was younger. Other than that, at that time, no, everything was so new. Like, I just didn't know anything. Yeah, how do you connect with new people in Vietnam or elsewhere? Or how do you make friends now? Usually it's work because most like since I've been abroad, a lot of things has been about work. So people in the tech industry and then, you know, I fell into design. So a lot of the people I know are like, you know, designers or developers or people in the startup world. And then, of course, a lot of it is dating, right? Like Tinder is fucking amazing. Yeah, you meet a lot of people and the first girl I met on Tinder, like she was cool and I think we maybe saw each other for a few months. But it's her housemates at the time that I'm still friends with today. And I've lost contact with her. Yeah, so like, you know, it's almost like a gateway to like a whole new set of people if you get to meet their friends and things like that. So, yeah, I mean, Tinder work and community events. Like I do, you know, meetups has been something, you know, in the past few years that I've been attending a lot or other sort of, you know, these events that are set up. When you are living in Vietnam, if you can recall back to that time, what do you think it takes to be accepted in the Vietnamese society? Oh, what do I think it needs to be accepted in Vietnamese? Well, you definitely need to speak Vietnamese, like definitely, because everybody asked you, oh, do you speak Vietnamese? How long have you been living here? And then everybody's like, what the hell, man? Like, you don't speak Vietnamese because as I mentioned in your survey, I'm pretty bad, right? Like, I understand quite a bit, but like, stringing sentences together, I'm just not very good, right? Like, maybe just like understanding some nuances in the culture, like Vietnamese manners, I think is very important. And I think that's something my dad definitely did instill in us. And we didn't know what it was. We just thought it was manners. But it's a very like the Vietnamese way of doing things, like walking into someone's house saying hello and acknowledging that people are there, right? Like not just being a, you know, a dick. I'm sure there's more, but I guess I'm still kind of learning. Like, I don't really know because I'm in this world, like, like in the UK, for example, I don't really belong because I have, you know, a different culture set. But also when I come back to Vietnam, the same thing is true, right? Like I've dated Vietnamese girls and they've said, you're really white. And I'm like, OK, I'm like, cheers, man. Thank you. Like, is that a fucking insult? Or what the fuck? You know what I'm saying? Like, and yeah. And I'm I'm like, well, this is who I am. Like, that's kind of how I grew up. And, you know, I've learned to sort of put my own value set together, right? And my own things that I find important and how I behave is is actually my own, whether it's white, Vietnamese or Chinese. That's like that's the mould that I'm going for. Yeah. So from what you just described, would you consider yourself part of Vietnamese society? Yeah, I think I think so. I mean, I'm definitely like of a subculture. And but I think there's more of, you know, people like you and me like overseas that go back. And and then those are the people I gravitate towards as well, right? Just because it's easier to get long, understand, have jokes. But yeah, definitely so. I think, you know, VKs in Vietnam are doing really interesting things. And I think, you know, they try to give back as much as possible, hopefully, and not just take. But yeah, I think so. You just spoke a little bit about you feeling like you didn't belong in the UK. Could you speak a little bit more about that? One of the examples is like physically looking different, right? Looking different, different kind of hair, you know, skin tone, different height. Dating when I was younger was was a little bit different, right? Like having girlfriends and stuff was a little bit different. It's not like I had never really struggled with speaking to women just because I have a sister and my mom is, you know, very outgoing. So, you know, that that was never a problem for me. But sometimes being romantically involved as much as your friends were, right? With other girls is is different. Celebrations of certain cultural events, like, for example, Christmas, right? UK Christmas is very interesting. And I never knew like I saw Christmas dinner on TV, right? Home alone or whatever. But it's not only until I actually went to my friend's house and spent Christmas with him and his family. And I was like, holy shit, this Christmas is way better. I was like, this is awesome. Like even I got presents and I was like a guest, right? But in my house, I was presents, like was a thing until like, you know, 15, 16, and then we've never got any presents after that. It was like, oh, whatever, right? You get you get a bit of money, but it wasn't like the whole big deal. And like we had family things. And our Christmas dinner was like hot pot, you know, like fucking. But our Christmas was filled with a lot of people. We always go around to like other people's houses and stuff. And I always see my cousins, you know, we'll play video games into early mornings. But their Christmas was more like tight knit. People get drunk, you get drunk with the family, which is it was very different. But I think I prefer that that Christmas to be fair. Yeah, when you were living in big, could you tell me a relationship that you had with Vietnamese local? Yeah, when I first got to Vietnam, like I was really into basketball, right? So I had a friend like when I was 17, you know, we had something in common, which is basketball. But in terms of like how we are as people, we're wildly different. Right. And why do I say that? It's because Vietnamese guys when they get drunk are very touchy. And I wasn't really I was like, what the fuck is going on, man? Why is he touchy? Why has got his hand on my leg for like half an hour? This is weird, right? Coming from the like a British culture, we don't do that shit, right? Like we're not touching people, right? We're very like keep keep your hands to yourself, man. And I was like, OK, weird. But then like, you know, he would invite me around his house to meet his parents and I was like, what is going on? It's like I'm dating this dude, right? And he'll always call me and like, you know, even back then it was like, no, man, just text me. Don't ever call me like don't call me. Right. So it was very it was it was interesting. It was very like it was weird at first. It was very weird. Right. And I was just I just wasn't used to like interact with locals. And then I learned very quickly. Oh, OK, this is just how it is. And yeah, learn to enjoy it over time. Would you say that that would is like typical kind of relationship that you like typical of your relationships with locals? That they're very like that they're more full on than than my British friends? Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah. What about a relationship that you had with you? A very cute. Yeah, could you describe to me? Yeah, like what it looked like? I guess similar to my friends back home, really. I mean, I definitely met, you know, more Americans than I've ever met before. Maybe I had like one American friend in the UK. I got really introduced into like the American way of doing things, right, in my company. And because there was lots of vehicles there. Yeah, I guess our relationship is just I would say it's it's it's like we're joking on the same wavelength, maybe a little bit different, because it's not British. And that's what I'm used to. But, you know, at least a conversation flows better. I don't have to repeat myself. We understand each other better. Like, we're not we're not touchy. And there's just less friction, right, of understanding each other. Like it just flows better. Earlier, when we talked in our conversation, you had identified yourself as British and then maybe Cantonese afterwards. After moving to Vietnam, how how do you think you identified? I definitely have been embracing my Vietnamese side a lot more, right? Just because I've been like finding out more about myself and what I find important. And yeah, I'm really proud to be Vietnamese now. Like I'm I know that, you know, that I probably suppressed that side for years or didn't even know, right, didn't even identify as that. Like, I'm definitely more proud. And I think my friends know this as well, that I talk about it all the time. And I celebrate when, you know, other Vietnamese people achieve things and I'm like, holy shit, right. And of course, you know, one of the things is like the Vietnamese economy, where like that's something to be proud of and also means people are doing like really cool things. And so yeah, I'm definitely like, you know, I try to embody that spirit these days. What would you say that it means to be Vietnamese? What do you think it means to me? Oh, good question. The first thing that I think about, I think it's the hustling. I think I wouldn't have like propelled or even been half as successful in my career if I wasn't in Vietnam, just because around you, like it's just everybody's hustling, right? Like and it's very different. And I can compare that to Thailand, but most of my friends in Vietnam or people I work with have like, you know, side gigs and they're doing this and they're doing that. And then people move to Vietnam for that, even if they're not Vietnamese, I think it's infectious. Like the hustling cultures is very prevalent. You know, that kind of if you ask students in university, you're like, hey, what do you want to do? Everybody's like, I want to be my own boss, right? And I think that's really cool. Definitely, definitely that work ethic and that hustle culture is a very Vietnamese thing. I think resilience is definitely a Vietnamese thing. Like, you know, with all the colonization the country has had, you know, and the wars and all that stuff and going through different errors in our history, I think resilience is very good. And another thing that, you know, I've realized like women's place in society, in Vietnam society is different than women's place in other societies. So let's just compare it with like the Korean or Japanese society. I think women in Vietnam are more equal than in Korea or in Japan, for example. I think that's also vindicative of our history. You know, I think women have much more of a say and more respected. Of course, there's still like such anistic bastards out there, but I think they could do so much more, right? Like in some regards, right? Not every, it's not perfect, but yeah, I think, yeah, a strong like female power culture you can see it, you can see it everywhere. Wow, Chris, thank you so much. Yeah, man, I enjoyed it. Thank you for listening to me. Yeah, let's connect further and see what this leads. But I would love to, you know, when you finally, you know, have your themes and stuff, I would love to, you know, read it or however you want to share it would be great. Like I'm fascinated by this research. Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate your time, Chris, and I will keep you updated. We done. That was awesome. Good convo's. I mean, of course we went for over an hour, but what a nice guy. All right.