 Welcome to the Valley Advocate Podcast, featuring interviews that take us deeper into the people and happenings on the local scene. For more podcasts and a closer look at what's going on in the valley, visit us at valleyadvocate.com. Hi, my name is Dave Eisenstader. I am the editor of the Valley Advocate. This is the Valley Advocate Podcast, our collaboration with Amherst Media. I'm here with arts and culture editor Gina Beavers. And we are here with Barb Haddon, a phenomenal artist who now lives in Greenfield, a transplant of a few years, but welcome. It's great to be here. You have a show at the Oxbow Gallery in here in Northampton. And I got the pleasure of visiting you at the gallery as you were setting up. So first, you know, I mean, I love talking about people's art. So I mean, it's like, I love it. And what I really, really, really, really liked about talking to you about it yesterday was that you are honest. You're an honest, organic person and your work is honest and organic as well. Wow. I mean, that's, that was my very first, first thought about it. And you have a really, for this show, you start out as a photographer. Yeah. But these shows, but you moved into painting and of course this show of painting, but how did you move from being a photographer, a black and white photographer to a person who paints in full color? That's a pretty good question. I think partly about being a black and white photographer and being in a dark room in the old days, you know, is you have emulsion, like on the film itself, there's a silver emulsion and on the paper, because I was always using paper, paper they call it, the plastic resin coated. So it has a certain kind of white, it has a lot of gray and a lot of black. So when you're working with it as, I guess an artist who's also kind of technically dealing with it because I didn't send my stuff out to a lab and I also worked at a lab. So I was, I was actually really well trained in a, in a lab that did headshots for actors. So we were always trying to get the exact right skin tones and there were a lot of tricks to, to exposure and timing and, and things. So I kind of feel like it's a, it's a similar thing as painting. It's like a surface and in photography, the way I was doing it before there, it was an emulsion, which is like a coating of silver and a bunch of other chemistry that moves around in, as it light hits it, it's, it's like a, well, maybe that word organic applies in a way, even though it's chemistry, science kind of, but it's also like cooking a little bit. So painting, for me, I kind of came into it. It was like, I like, I like the surface of things. I like to move around stuff and emulsion moves around, paint moves around. Paint is a kind of emulsion, like especially oil paint. Yeah. It's slippery. And you work in oil. Yeah. Yeah. And watercolor. Okay. So there's, there's so many different parallels, like the, the white coming through in the water, called luminosity in a painting can, can be about the, the white of the panel coming through it. Right. And a photographer, in photography, you're looking at a print and you want to see what you missed when you made the print, you hold it up on a window and the light comes through and you can see all the gray. Right. So I think that's sort of where it is. So you got tired of being in a dark room, too? I did. I wanted to get outside, you know, just to be outside. So your paintings, I was looking back at your older paintings when you first started to paint. Um, it was interesting because you kind of fluctuated between some color. And then there was a period of not a lot of color, a lot of whites and, and. Well, white. Yeah. All right. Because you don't have to paint as much. Right. And you're like, I'm also a house painter. Right. So, I mean, I think oddly enough, or maybe not so oddly, paint is paint, you know, and every day, every day, I'm, I'm putting it on a wall, just about, I mean, if I'm lucky, yeah, every day I'm working, it gets a little slow in the winter. But so there's a physical connection with the material that I don't lose touch with just because I can't paint that day or that week or that month. I'm in the, I have that, that stuff in my hands. That's amazing. So it's almost like it doesn't matter that you're painting a house or you're painting like one of your paintings, like you just feel, you feel like the material. It's a different mindset. Yeah. You know, it's a lot scarier to, um, make a painting. Really? Then someone's like house that might be there for generations or something. I felt her fear. I felt a lot more experienced painting houses than paintings. Okay. You know, unfortunately. No, no, no, not, not, but, um, yeah, it's, it's, uh, I don't mind house painting. I mean, it's, I'm getting older. It's going to get harder to, to be hired and to do the work. Yeah. But, uh, I'm going to go as long as I can. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. That's awesome. So then at a certain point in your work, you went from this kind of monochromatic white and, and then you left right in the color, like greens and blues, greens in the woods. Yeah. A lot of greens, but, um, even the show now, the, the, the, one of the big differences in your show now too, is that you were landscape. You're doing a lot of landscape, a lot of trees and this show is figures. Yeah. People, women. Yeah. So this is something brand new. Well, people, women too, because when I was in art school, did a lot of drawing. Right. So we're always working with the figure and I was much more comfortable working with the male figure. Okay. You know, why? I just thought it was more of a common thing. No, but, but I don't know. Maybe it's like, uh, who I am. You know, I have a lot of brothers, blah, blah, blah. Um, I'm also a lesbian. So I always was sort of uncomfortable with how I felt myself. Like, why do I love this form so much? And maybe it worked too, cause I could separate, you know, desire from, uh, form, right, right, right in a sense. Um, but now it's kind of like, Oh, there's a lot out there. Like you were talking with the previous interviewer, interviewee about, um, you know, what it's like to be a Muslim person in, uh, this area. Yeah. It's like, what is it like to be a woman in this world? There's a lot, a lot more going on right now, you know, with what you were saying, or you were saying the me too, the women's march, you know, all these things. And so, and there's more material out, there's more information out. And, um, so I think it kind of accumulated, you know, like painting is also about accumulating, not so much photography because when you're making a painting, you're just keep trying to figure it out. You're trying to make a painting and it just, the paint builds up. So like the information has been building up about like education for, for girls, women, daughter, she was talking about it too. Yeah. Um, the kids, you know, the role models thing. So I think it kind of just accumulated to a point where I was like, okay, this is what I'm thinking about. This is like in me now, whereas, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm maybe because I'm getting older. I'm connecting more with, with myself and, and feeling more confident. You know, Hey, you know, that was terrible. The way people, you know, didn't get to be literate 200 years ago. And it was a big threat and people were, were murdered for, for being able to read or, or, or studying or, or something like that. And how does that reflect these days? Or, you know, how's it, how's it going? You know, and that's, and that's title nine. That's all title nine is, I believe is started out in the seventies around that Billie Jean King tennis match. Um, so they wanted to have sort of equal access to the sports programs and public schools and colleges. And then Barack Obama added a lot of stuff about, um, protection from sexual harassment for, you know, men also boys and men also. And for differently abled, you know, access to sports. Um, so it's kind of a, it's kind of an important thing. And I, I believe I looked it up when I was writing the statement for the show to see, you know, cause a lot of the images come from, or some of them anyway, come from the title nine. So it has like a dual meeting. Yeah. So, so yeah. So when I first saw those cows, I was like, wow, I could do a whole series of this is kind of, there's like a lot of angles you could come at this information in this catalog from, you know, not, I'm not going to go buy the clothes because they're really expensive. And title, title night for, for anybody who doesn't know title nine as a catalog for women, it's clothing. And it's, it's, it's, I was describing to Davis, but it's a little cruel because, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's so fake. Yeah. It's kind of like these beautifully formed women and these wonderful clothing and doing these amazing things that most of us will never get to do. I'm never going to surf in Spain in a, in a, you know, beautiful charcoal gray bikini with my baby on my back, you know, machete. So I cut off coconut. And it's just kind of, it's kind of mean, but it's, it's alluring. It's alluring. I want to be there because they're using that thing about like, oh, let's, let's like include women. Right. You can be in sports too. You can be sold. You can be like, oh, like you can do, you could do this, even though you probably will not and cannot, but, but you could because of, you know, title nine and, right, you know, like all inclusion. Right. Yeah. So the, it's sort of sporting wear kind of, you know, and support bras. Yeah. And so you took those images and you, that's your, some of your inspirations. I was like, I could really make paintings out of these images because they're so iconic. Is that the word? Oh, in a way they are. In a way they are. The striking photography is beautiful photography. And I, and I, and I have always wanted to be doing things outdoors. Like the J. Paintings kind of was like, it's great to be out in the woods all day. I mean, it's amazing the kind of meditation that happens being on site and looking and painting and looking at paint. Nothing else is coming into your mind. That's like plain air. Yeah. Yeah. I was living on a farm in Conway and there were acres of woods and I was able just to go up in there and be there all day and not, and just by myself, you know, work. But one of the things we talked about yesterday was that you, having loved the outdoors, one of the things you used to do on the Appalachian Trail and you felt that you had to stop. I had to stop. Yeah. Because I felt threatened, you know, it was, it was hard. It was, it could, there was only one time there was a really creepy guys following me and I would see notes, you know, around in the, in the huts and the, the outhouses. I don't forget the latrines, you know. And it was like, oh, have you seen this person? And I just got really creeped out. I'm not a very, you know, I'm not like the woman that was sitting here before. She's so courageous. She's fearless. Like she's like, I, you know, I know that there's going to be this hate coming at, at my campaign and I'm prepared, you know, I am not prepared, you know, for that kind of stuff. You like hiked the, I mean, just to put it in a little bit of perspective, I was like, you know. I didn't hike the Appalachian Trail. But you know, sections and I like to hike. I like to be by myself, you know, that's courageous though. It is, but I didn't have enough to like, just say, oh, I'll be fine. That's because you were sane. Because, you know, that there have been dangerous people 2000 miles and I had an experience and I didn't like say, oh, I'm prepared. I wasn't prepared. And that was a while ago too. Like it was a long time ago. I was like in my very, I think I was still in, in, you know, like 20, maybe. Do you, do you think that the trail is safer now or like, I don't know, like, I think there's just a whole lot more people. I haven't actually, I went with my nephew and my brother, I think two falls ago, we went in Vermont near his house and it was really interesting actually because I was with them and then we arrived at the hut and it was raining and there were like 10 guys and they all assumed that I was a guy first. So I, I heard all this really awful, sexual, explicit talk that they were having around this fire because they assumed that I was a guy and then when they heard my voice, they assumed that my brother was my husband and my nephew was my son, you know, so we went through, you know, went through all this stuff. Like, I can't imagine have been arriving there on my own really, right, would have been a little uncomfortable, a lot of them, you know, I mean, they were all nice people in the end, in the end, but yeah, you got it. Yeah, so you're kind of out there and it can be scary, I suppose. Yeah, I suppose it can be scary, you know, so you've kind of filtered that into your paintings. Yeah, so it's kind of like, that's another aspect of I want to, you know, I want, I have wanted to be out and doing those things and and when I was in high school, we did rock climbing and that was so fun and caving because I was in Washington, DC and West Virginia and Virginia and those parts that it's near, there's a lot of that kind of stuff that you can go do and it's all really, it was really beautiful, you know, 40 years ago, right. And I don't know what it's like now. Yeah, so I always wanted to be involved in those things, but it's sort of, you know, being going to art school and stuff, that's where it goes, different, there weren't really climbers at art school, right, so much. Maybe there aren't now, because now it's because they have the indoor stuff and you can really, you know, you don't have to go to West Virginia to go find some rocks. Yeah, but it's almost like you're experiencing these things through your painting. Yeah, I was starting to think, oh, I can't really do it, you know, pragmatically, it's sort of, you know, to get there and all that and to get kind of like toughen up and, you know, that, you know, maybe it's kind of okay to put it in a painting in a way, you know, and live vicariously through your painting. I think that all artists live vicariously through their paintings a little bit, you know, whether or not you're creating something that you want or creating or trying to encapsulate a moment or, you know, I think that we all do that. And so at the Oxbow, the gallery, at the gallery, your show starts on, start April 5th. Yes, today. Yep, and goes to, it goes, I believe, to the 29th, which is a Sunday. And this will be your last show. You're a member of the Oxbow, this will be your last show at the Oxbow. Yep, I've been a member for probably 10 or 11, maybe 12 years. Yeah. And it's a great gallery. It's the room itself, the bigger room. There's two rooms. There's a back room and a front room. They're both really great rooms. The front room particularly, it's just, it's not a really big space, but it's for, for what an artist would want in a gallery here in this, in this area in the valley. I think it's, it's kind of unique because it has, like, just, it's just plain. It's just these great walls. It's set up nice. It has pretty good lighting, you know, and you can, you can put on a really professional show if you want to. You know, if you put the energy into it. It's a co-op, so everybody is doing their own. Nice. Mostly, there are, there is committees and things that help with publicity and, and stuff like that, but it's kind of your show and you, you make it what it is. And the potential to make something really good is, is pretty high in there, I think. Yeah, I was just reading about, sort of, the cooperative model for a different business. And it, like, I, when it kind of, I was just wondering, being a valley artist and there's lots of artists around here, like, how do you, like, you know, what's your, like, like, how do you connect with other artists or do you connect with other artists in the area? Well, it's kind of, I think as I get older, it's harder to connect because I want to stay in it night. Yeah. It's like, I, it's like, oh, I don't know how to go all the way down. Something starts at nine o'clock. He's tamping, you know. You gotta get on, or you gotta get on fire depending on your preference. I used to have a studio over at the arts and industry building and I sort of met some people that way. And that's how I got connected to the gallery where somebody came to open studios there and said, oh, you should apply to be in this co-op. So that was a connection. And then I also was part of a critique group at UMass. I can't remember the name of the gallery right now, but there's a couple of galleries there that are pretty good too. I think it's some. Anyway, I can't remember right now. And that ended up being a lot of women my age. And once I settled down and kind of like, OK, that's my job. And I've been doing that for like four or five years. I have a job I have to do Sundays now. It was always Sunday. So I can't go to that group anymore. But that was another way. So critique groups, there's some of those around. So that's how you would connect aside just from going to openings and stuff. So when somebody goes to the Oxbow to see your show, what can they expect? I know what to expect because I've seen it. Well, what can I expect? There's not a lot of paintings in the show. A friend of mine helped me hang it. And I think because I had a very short amount of time to do this work in, it's really important. I think one thing about painting is it's a group effort. It seems like it's like one person, you know, by themselves up in the attic. But it's actually the whole thing about connecting, making connections, and that word networking, which I hate, is really important. And like, for instance, having a statement to help people kind of connect with it is really important. I think that's kind of how I got here was somewhat that statement because for the first time I wrote something that wasn't just about painting itself. Like I wrote something that I was thinking about because of a book I read and how I got the name for the show, which is Thoughts on the Education of Daughters. So it's kind of a provocative. That's the name of the book? And I stole it from my show. And the book is called Romantic Outlaws. And I forget the author's name, but it's Mary Wollstonecraft and Mary Shelley, the mother and the daughter. And their lives 200 years ago in England, and it was just mind blowing to me, like what was happening with them. And they were really those courageous kind of people that expect violence against them and a lot of judgmental and shaming from the culture of the community and they could deal with it. And Mary Shelley, of course, went on to write Frankenstein. Right, Frankenstein, yeah, yeah. And Mary Wollstonecraft, her mom, who died when Mary Shelley was born, she died giving birth to her daughter, was, oh, I don't know what they are called, but she was a women's rights person from the get-go and she wrote that book, Thoughts on the Education of Daughters and many others. And she was, had these really unusual sort of things at the time, like open marriage and literacy, which was like, oh, literacy? Literacy, you know what, for women? No, so it was interesting to me anyway, to be looking backwards more, because I'm a certain age and I'm looking at what's the issues are now and I sometimes think to myself selfishly. I wish people would ask the older people more, what it was like, because, yeah, we knew. But then when I read that book, I was like, I did not ask anybody who came before me what it was like for them. So it was great to hit that book and then sort of open my mind to more different points of view and what's going on now, without having this kind of like, wish somebody would ask me, you know? Right. What happened? But we're asking you? Yeah, we're asking you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, where do you feel like we're at now in terms of like, you know, women's rights, like, you know, moving towards equality and contending with me too, kind of over your lifetime, like how do you, you know, how do you feel like we're doing now? Well, the me too thing, I think is really good stuff, but I really think the answers are gonna be in like how you set up worksites, like for instance, co-ops, like having cooperatively run businesses takes care of the boss. There isn't someone that has all the power sitting there that then everyone else is afraid of. So it's like an automatically kind of set up situation for bad stuff to happen. You know, and it's not just sexual harassment either, I'm sure that happens. So that's one thing I think, if they ask me, I'd say, you know, let's look at how to set up work environments that don't involve bosses. That's interesting. I mean, that'll never happen, but you know, that's the thing. Well, but it's happening in a few places. Yeah, there are people that are working hard to structure those, how do you do that? You know, how do you do that well? You know, for a corporation or whatever, or how does capitalism deal with co-ops? So that's that. And I still have a lot of things I need to learn about the sort of the gender stuff. That's a pretty interesting place to be kind of coming into as an older person, as someone who, me personally, I never felt like I was a man, but I got a lot of feedback out there like people would treat me like I was before they would speak. It happens a lot less now than I'm older, but, and I wasn't purposely making myself look a certain way. I was just trying to be something out there, trying to walk around outside, you know. To be authentic. To be okay, you know, like I don't, I can't do that. I can't, you know, it's like, I can't put a dress on, sorry. You know, I can't. So there's that kind of stuff, and I'm sure that there's many young women or girls or whatever, and boys too, their side of it, that have that kind of like clothing. What would be the word, like dysplasia or like clothing? That's so funny, I heard a dis in my mind. I was like, what would it be? It's not, it's something that's wrong, you know. It's something that people are looking at you and they're judging you, and it can be scary, you know. And I'm sure people that like, especially men who are more like women, it's very threatening to be different gendered or whatever, or gender neutral, or one, identify as the opposite, like gender. I don't have all the language, I haven't done my training, you know, my research. And it is a lot of research. Yeah, and it's a really interesting place, but I do wish that there was already not so strict rules. I wish that the culture was a little looser so that people wouldn't feel like they had to like make those kind of choices. Does it seem like we're going that way or not? It doesn't. It doesn't seem like, I mean, I think there's a lot of really brave people saying, you know, I'm neutral or, you know, you can, you know, I'm not going to be one or the other. And then everyone that's like making these choices and changing over, that's really scary stuff. And it's also kind of dangerous, you know, health-wise. So I know it's very real, you know, it's a big thing. So now that you're kind of retiring from the Oxbow, and you have these thoughts, and it sounds like you're, you are very interested in educating yourself in various things as a life student in a way. Do you think that's going to inform your future pieces of art? Because one of the other things that I really liked about you too is that you were really honest about, I started this piece in 2013. Yeah, and I said, I had to make this work because I had this show coming up and I have to make this work somehow, because I've done the same thing. So I just, you know, it's hard to know as an artist what your next big thing is going to be, but it seems like there are things that are percolating in your mind, particularly since you're going to be moving from the Oxbow, because that's taken up some time. Yeah. Yeah, as I age, I need to earn more money and I'm less able to earn more money, so I got to figure this out, you know. So that was based only on income and what I was capable of investing in the Oxbow money-wise and time-wise, because now I have an extra job on Sundays, so I used to gallery sit on Sundays, so I had to switch with someone, which is fine, but now it's on Friday and that's a potential day to make income, and you know. So for me personally, it wasn't going to work anymore, but it worked for a long time when I was able to do it. So you think you'll paint more? It's funny because I was so stressed out about the show, because I had so little time that I was like, I can't wait till this is over. I'm kind of done, you know. But then like I got your email and the paintings did come together and the friend of mine that helped me hang and also came in a couple of times and was like, hey, you know, that was the extra set of eyes that I didn't get to have because I couldn't get away from the work. I started feeling a little better that maybe I could continue, you know. With it somehow or other, and maybe by opening, you know, letting go of the oxbow or something else will kind of like. Do you ever think about teaching? I have been a teacher in my youth. Yeah. Did you move on? Or what's that? There's no going back. It was, I think what happened with the teaching profession is it got really administrative. And I kind of left before that got really hard and I have people, I know people that are still teaching and it's unbelievable. Like the rubrics, you know, and the accountability and the intense pressure from parents, some people think that it's just a lot of pressure from the parents that the administration kind of like they're on that team and teachers don't always get. And I'm sure this is like very general, I'm generalizing a lot, but for instance, I have a friend that when the last president election, you know, happened and I think she did something like when he was gonna like the thing with immigration. So she said something like, and I'm not gonna have the exact, you know, this isn't a trial, so, you know, it's okay, but let's start the class off. She's an art teacher. Let's start the class off with like five minutes of like where you're from, you know, where's your family from? And somebody in her class reported her and she was, you know, over one weekend, she thought she was gonna lose her job for doing that, you know. So there's that too, like in this kind of climate, political climate that we're in, it's pretty hard to be a teacher. So I'm pretty okay about being out of it, but if I'd stayed, I'd be like, okay, I can retire now. Yeah, right, right, right. Which is why I kind of got to do it in the first place. I was like, I gotta take care of myself better, but I never did, so. Well, something always presents itself. Yeah, yeah, I've been kind of lucky. Yeah, so. Yeah. Yeah, great. Well, thanks for coming in. Thanks so much. Well, thank you very much for happening. I mean, happening. Yeah. Thank you so much for being here. We're all happening. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what's your website if people want you to try? Oh, yeah, right, right. Just my name, www.barbrahadn, H-A-D-D-E-N, dot com. And I'll warn you, though, I haven't updated it in a while, but you can see all the old paintings. Yes, you can. Right. Yes, you can. Thank you so much, Barbara. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks for listening, and don't forget to visit us at valleyadvocate.com.