 I think that's all my housekeeping done. OK, so welcome to day two. I hope you've all enjoyed the gala dinner. It was a lovely venue. So we're starting off today with our third keynote, Sheila McNeill. Sheila's currently the senior lecturer at Glasgow Caledonian. I'm sure if you work in UK, I'd take most of you who know Sheila. She was assistant director at CITIS and she led on many influential programmes. She was one of the key people to follow on Twitter, I think, and her blog is always a joy to read. I think, as with the other speakers, when we kind of came up with the choice of the theme, Sheila was kind of a really obvious choice for me about mainstream in OER. One of the things I kind of really admire about Sheila is this ability to avoid hype either on the plus or negative side about new technology developments. So whether it's MOOCs, learning analytics, learning design or digital badges, I think a key question you can always carry in your head when you think about things like, what would Sheila think? That's a pretty good path to follow. So Sheila's been doing great work in open education for many years and she's been blogging about the talk she's going to give today and that's already generated loads of great conversations. So go to her blog and have a look at that. I'm really looking forward to talk. So please welcome Sheila MacNeill. Morning everybody, thanks Martin for that. I'm going to try and stand in front of the mic. Well thank you. I'm really delighted to be here in Cardiff. This is my first OER conference and it's been great, it's been a blast. So thank you to Hayden and Martin and the conference organisers. It's just been great. And also today I just want to say a special thank you to Debbie Bath who's not here today but just Debbie we're thinking of you. So as you know the theme of this conference is mainstreaming. So someone who works in the mainstream I thought this would be a perfect for me to take some time and air my open washing and open washing I know is something that's been talked about quite a bit yesterday so I'm going to explore that. The safety of this lovely open community. So when Martin asked me to do the keynote I was kind of taken aback because I don't know how many of you were at all at sea last year. So there were a couple of keynotes there that kind of raised the bar and we had some excellent keynotes here yesterday as well but Catherine Cronin who's here today and Audrey Waters they did a couple of fantastic keynotes and probably two of the best that I've ever been to. And I was kind of like saying to Martin I was like you want me to do a great keynote and we've just seen those people. Anyway we had a talk about it and one of the key things I came out of Catherine and Audrey's presentation at all was the need to have authentic voices and authentic narratives to tell our story and not just about educational technology but about learning in general and I think for openness that's very true. So we had a chat but well actually my story, my narrative is just as worthy as anybody else's to share. So it's unashamedly from a Scottish HE UK perspective that's where I work, that's my mainstream if you like and I'm not coming from one of the big or one of the ancient or one of the the curve institutions I'm coming from somewhere which is probably about as middle of the mainstream as you can get. So I hope that you'll enjoy my presentation today I hope some of the things that I'm going to talk about about mainstreaming resonate with you and together we can explore some of the themes that came up yesterday particularly around awareness and practice. So after agreeing to take the gig as they say a couple of things sprang to mind and the first one was this phrase, don't panic. Now those of you who work in mainstream education if you're like me you probably find you say that quite a lot don't panic is kind of a key phrase for me in my life. And obviously when you think of don't panic you always think of the late great Douglas Adams and I tend to find that there's always a quote from Douglas Adams that kind of fits into any kind of social situation which is quite good. It's always a great, it's also a very useful place to start when thinking about titles for presentations it might be a bit cliched. So when I was thinking about this I was thinking oh great I know what I can do. I can call it something like the hitchhiker's guide to OER and I can talk about my kind of travels from planet innovation to planet mainstream and it'll be great, it'll be heartwarming, it'll be insightful, it'll be funny, it'll be you know what could possibly go wrong. So I started thinking about it a bit more and I was like well you know it's all these characters so who would I be in this fascinating tale of OER? Would I be Arthur Dent, a sort of female Arthur Dent in my dressing gown in my towel being pulled around and I was like I don't know and then I kind of thought well who would be my Ford Prefect you know who would be Zafod? Obviously Josie would be Trillion but you know there's some of these things that we have to think about and then the more I thought about it I actually thought well you know what I'm just going to end up being Marvin the depressed robot because I'll just end up saying in a monotone voice yeah but back in the real world we have to do it this way but I thought now I'll keep going with it there's got to be something in this and I thought well the vogons fantastic because there's so many people we could draw analogies with they could be like the venture capitalists who are just coming in with their evil openness and they're just destroying our wonderful lovely, caring OER community just at the point that it started to get interesting and I thought that also the kind of vogons they really like their bureaucracy and administration and if you work in mainstream you know we do have to go through a lot of committees we do have to sign a lot of documents and I was like wow that's another thing and then I thought maybe you should stop this now Sheila before you actually get into really dodgy territory and you end up getting sued so I thought no we won't do that so then another tale came to mind and there was something about this that really appealed to me so I thought I'll stick with this it was Alice in Wonderland and it wasn't because there was a cast of crazy characters because there are but it wasn't for that and it wasn't about going down the rabbit hole though we could obviously draw analogies with that it was really about a pivotal moment for me in kind of my openness and it was that kind of eat me drink me moment now yeah I know that I've kind of taken a lot of liberties there with the cupcake but I think if Lewis Carroll had been around just now he would have had a cupcake not biscuits you know definitely they would have been there and I think when you start to think about openness and when you take a bite of the open cake it's amazing it's an amazing experience suddenly you feel you're connecting with this big open world you're meeting people and doing things that you never thought you could and you know it's a great feeling and it's really really exciting and it's one of the most exciting aspects about open education and you become part of this lovely twirly mass of goodness and openness and I suspect many of us have had that you know that lovely warm egotistical feeling when you find yourself in one of Martin's lovely tags explorer visualisations it's great we all feel wow look there's me that's fantastic but conversely if you take a drop or two of the open juice you can actually start to feel very very small and insignificant and how can I possibly make my voice be heard in this vortex of openness and people that know each other and connected and that's the scary part of open and I think that's the really thing that we have to think about in the mainstream education and I know I've had those feelings of isolation and loneliness particularly in open online learning and it can be quite scary so yeah that's something I think we really have to think about in the mainstream and I think that many of our colleagues and many of our senior management people in our senior management team they tend to think of things still from the eat me point of view they still think if they do things in the open they'll suddenly become huge and everybody will be looking at everything that they do and the whole world will be looking at them and it's not quite like that so I think we kind of sometimes think that the risks are a lot higher than they are and of course with everything there's a balance to be struck so deciding how open you want to be as an individual and as an institution you have to think about the same things and thinking about how open you want to be and indeed how open you can be takes time and it's a constantly shifting balancing act as well and of course balance requires flexibility and I know in my life and in my practice I'm pretty flexible about my approach so for example today I've created my slide deck today using Haiku Deck a couple of reasons for doing that one of them was I just wanted to have play with it and the other reason was because you can search for creative commons licence images which is a really really handy thing to do so I know that the images that I'm using are properly creative commons licence or they're my own images which I've put in Flickr and I've put a CC licence in or indeed they're some of my own drawings which again I've put on Flickr and I've shared through a CC licence so done that I've also created well I started creating a list I used a service called Listly of just kind of interesting things for this talk so that's kind of built up to my reference list if you want and I tweeted that out earlier so a lot of things I'm going to talk about today are in that list a lot of things that I'm not going to talk about today or I'll forget to talk about are in that list as well but they're open to an extent and you know when you start looking at all these tools they're maybe not as open as we would like to be I'd like them to be and I think yeah that's what I want to look at a bit more and so as they say the open washing begins so as part of today I've been really looking about this whole notion of open washing because I think it's particularly relevant for those of us working in the mainstream and of course when you think about open washing and I know Cable alluded to this yesterday in his talk as well you have to think about the green washing movement and the definition that Cable gave yesterday from Audrey Waters is very good but I think the definition from the green washing site you just need to change environmental to open and it still stands so it's an act of misleading consumers regarding the environmental practices of a company or the environmental benefits of a product or service so I think we can definitely see that happens with openness and I blogged about this last week and I think there's obvious comparisons with open education and particularly with their sins the seven sins of green washing but I have to say I'm very very wary of using that kind of emotive religious language about mainstream education because I think there's a very fine line that you have to draw between being an evangelist or an early adopter and being that person that when people see you they're like don't look at them they're going to talk about open I don't have the time to do it so there's a very fine line and we all know that person we've probably all been that person and we have someone like that in our institution so we have to be careful about that and whilst when we look at them there are a lot of these sins that I have to hold no chuck with there are a couple that I want to explore a bit more on that and again it was really great from the presentations yesterday and Cable highlighted this in his presentation as well we have a growing evidence and proof of openness now which is fantastic and you all here at the conference are adding to that body of evidence of course we need more but we now are in a position when you're in mainstream that when people ask you well so why do we want to do this open thing we actually have got some evidence that we can give our senior management and that's really important so we've got that evidence increasingly about the impact and the cost benefit of openness but we need more but I'm keeping the worshiping false labels at the lesser of two evils and the hidden trade off out of the bin just now because in mainstream education in mainstream life we have to deal with that every day, I know I do it every day just to get a bit of open into a conversation or into a part of a project some of you may have been at my lightning presentation yesterday I talked about a development we ran last year in conjunction with the Commonwealth Games we ran an open online event called GCU Games On and it was open in many senses of the word open we did reuse some properly openly licensed content, I think David Walker there we used your 10 days of twitter guide which has been repurposed from the original 10 days of twitter which is from CC licensed that was great we used an open platform but it was only open to us because we pay a lot of money to use their other not open platform and I could go on and on about the other things that we used but there was a huge trade off for us in doing that the first that taking that very pragmatic approach and using tools that we were familiar with meant that we were able to do something very quickly and get it online incredibly quickly so in under a month we had something from a bit of paper to a full bone course that was ready for people to sign up to and take part in but the biggest trade off that we had was because we were doing things openly and because we were being quite agile we got and we kept the attention of our then PVC for learning and teaching and we got openness being discussed in a way that we hadn't done before and it was quite accidental but it was a real opportunity and we took that and that trade off was really worth it so I'm not going to stand up here and ask to be forgive for any excuse me ask for forgiveness for any kind of sin because in my context the end was just the means absolutely justified the end and you know in my context it worked and I think context is absolutely critical in any situation for years to go back in the days of learning objects when they were going to save the world and you know revolutionise and disrupt education I was at a conference and Stephen Heppel said if context is king then context is majesty and I don't know why more people don't say that because I think it's absolutely true our context is absolutely crucial so if we think about our mainstream educational context where does openness sit and where would we start to think about that in terms of our context and our needs and I thought well let's have a look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs and I think when you start looking at that it's very easy to make some nice correlations with openness particularly at the top of the pyramid around self actualisation and a steep individual level and on an institutional level we can easily make connections with openness there and whilst we might laugh because it seems to be that wi-fi is now the de facto additional layer to Maslow's hierarchy of needs and we can't, I mean how many of us could have functioned at this conference without wi-fi but I think it's quite timely maybe to think about where openness fits in this and should openness be a distinct layer in this pyramid or is it something that actually is subsumed into all of these layers and I don't know but I think it's something we need to look at so we also need to think about what mainstreaming is as well and I was looking for a definition of mainstreaming and this is from Wikipedia and I thought this is actually quite a good one generally the common current thought of the majority so if we're talking about our needs and our drivers we go to find out the current thoughts of the majority well we go to alt in the UK of course and if we have a look at last year's the 2014 alt survey this is one of I just have to show some Martin's graphs here fun making them so this kind of shows some of the key drivers for educational technology and I think that's probably a good place to look for anything around about openness but if we look at it in a bit more detail openness in terms of the current drivers and the increasingly important one it's not on the top list at all it's not anywhere near the top it's great to see that it's increasingly important and it's being identified as being increasingly important but it's not at the top and it's not spoken about in the same breath as many of the other things when I don't very often hear people talking about assessment and openness in the same breath in my institution so for our mainstream practice there's a lot of work that we have to do around openness and this is just one view of mainstream in terms of competing priorities there's things like the NSS as well where's the openness and that there's a lot of things that we can we can we need to think about and I know in my own institution we've just recently finished a survey with our staff and we've used the alt survey so the situation there is probably slightly more depressing but openness is there but it's certainly not high up in people's priorities just now but I do know anecdotally in my own institution that I think we are moving forward certainly when I started about a year and a half going round talking to staff and asking people about do you use open educational resources, do you share well if I was with a shake of the head normally I just got a blank look from a lot of pieces so people are actually talking about openness or maybe actually they're going oh my god there's that woman that's going to ask me about openness run away now, run away now but I think in a kind of a more positive note I think there's lots of things that we can do and we can leverage open in a lot of these priorities and leveraging is another one of those words that is really key to us in the mainstream so my context for online and delivery that's certainly a driver just now so we're using that to drive and try and improve and get people to think more about openness as well so that's one way where we can get some information about what the current thought the majority is but I thought as Martin said I've been doing a bit of blogging in preparation for this keynote so I thought well I know how I kind of think about mainstreaming and just ask people so I wrote a little blog post in February and I asked people how do you mainstream and I have to say I was absolutely overwhelmed by the response I got so I know a number of people who responded to that are in the room today so thank you very much for that it was great the wisdom of the crowd is fantastic but at this point I have to give a special mention to Pat Lockley because Pat kind of single-handedly went into the comments and made some fantastic contributions but that was really really interesting whilst I urge you all to go and have a look at the comments don't read the post just look at the comments it's a really interesting discussion I'll try and sort of share what I took away from it as well so the first thing I thought to do there was a lot of comments I thought I'll just maybe do a quick wordle because sometimes that's quite crude but it gives you an overview of what people are talking about it's quite nice but that doesn't really tell you anything apart from open which I would have expected anyway so I thought well I'll try and be a little bit clever and I'll try and do some text analysis so I got a nice swirly twirly but it didn't really help and I think all that diagram really showed me was how interrelated and how complicated the people and the thoughts that we were talking about were but one of the things that did strike me from the discussion was that there seemed to be a tension between open educational resources and open educational practice which kind of surprised me and the conversation seemed to we seemed to drift I had asked people to tell me how they mainstreamed and I did get some really fantastic examples of that so thank you but the conversation did tend to drift more to the why and I think that was maybe a reflection of where we are where people are doing stuff and some people are actually still wanting to question why we do open as well and both are equally valid so on the one hand there was definitely a strong advocacy for clarity and rigor around licensing and content and then on the other hand more of people were saying well I really want to be creative I want to use openness for experimentation I think we need a bit of both obviously but I think from my point of view just now I'm probably more in that kind of experimentation and extending practice more than really concentrating about content too much and again that's my context because I tend to work with people and we're building activities so content is not actually my main focus but open educational practice is a huge part of my practice and I think education as we all know is more than resources it's more than content so again referring to context as Majesty and I certainly want our students and our staff to be open practitioners and I want them to be able to express themselves and to be able to interact appropriately and openly and not just be consumers of content because I think we have to be realistic not everybody is going to create and share content that's just not going to happen we know that it's only a tiny percentage of the population of any population will actually create and share we want people to reuse what people are going to do but we want people to be able to obviously understand licensing and to also in the presentation and this isn't a typo this is my I am Spartacus moment I am OER Tony Hearst made a fantastic contribution to the discussion and Cable again alluded to that yesterday in his presentation and Tony again he said he'd been thinking about his own personal development and how he'd realised that he was an open educational resource and I think that's so true and we forget about that we're all open educational resources we're the most effective and we're the best open educational resources that our institutions and indeed our society have so I think what we really need to do in the mainstream is to think about that more and start recognising that and identifying ourselves as open educational practitioners I know in the last two years I've very much started to do that it's my name, it's my institution and then it's that I'm an open practitioner and I guess most of you in this room because you're at this conference do the same thing and if you don't I would urge you to very publicly say that you're an open practitioner and think about trying to encourage your colleagues or maybe not at this conference and who are more in the mainstream to think about doing that because I think once we get people identifying themselves as open educational practitioners then we really start making some inroads into the mainstream as well so this is the point where I want to highlight the battle and the battle conundrum and I think it's fair to say that Martin and I have a good natured difference opinion about this battle metaphor I think one of my main issues with it is that where I'm coming from doesn't really matter who's won and who's lost this battle because most of the people I work with don't even know that it's been fought they just don't have a clue so it doesn't really matter and I think Martin has taken account of this and the title of the book where he says openness while we've won and it doesn't feel like victory and again just to plug Martin's book it's a great read and I think it really does summarise where we are in the sector in all sorts of openness do you read the books? we have to worry about winning battles and wars and I think if we look particularly just now if we look at UK politics we have a really good example of a battle being won in Scotland but I think UK's political establishment have been quite surprised that all those countries were called battle then the war they certainly haven't won a whole other keynote in there so I won't go on but I think my other main problem with the battle analogy and the thing I really want to talk about and the mainstream education is this I love my job I really love my job I love the people I work with I love going to work but when you work in the mainstream it can be tough again and again and I could add a couple of gains as well so you have to be that can be quite time consuming so I honestly don't have the energy to take on another battle I just don't have the energy to fight every single day because I have enough to do so it's not to say that I'm not ready to fight as Josie and Martin note take my butter knife away from me oh boy you're in trouble sorry about that but I am absolutely ready to fight for what is right but I have to choose my battles very carefully and mainstreaming is very much about pragmatism and it's about patience and it's about the long haul so whilst I'll take small victories as and when I can I have to work and think about the wider context and the strategic aims and how I can really start making a difference and do things that I don't have to go over again and again with people so I want to take it away from this whole battle analogy and I want to take you to what I'm going to call my ha ha moment now the reason I've put this in because I thought it's all going to be wrong if I put that up maybe somebody will take a picture or they'll tweet and at least they'll think there's some kind of joke but it's all quite funny but really what I want to do I want to talk about landscape gardening and can I just ask how many people know what a ha ha is few people yeah you know it's a ha it's the ditch yeah so usually and it's for those of you who don't know but obviously you're so educated anyway this audience I knew I had a good crite I knew you would know this a ha is a device that's used to create views in usually large country parks so it was pioneered by some of the early landscape gardeners people like capability brain when they were working in large country states and they were making these lovely pastoral views this is from Wikipedia obviously all the links are out here I thought they had the best drawing of a ha ha here so you'd have sheep in landscape and probably a couple of peasants way off in the distance and you wanted to see them but you didn't want to have any kind of line to stop getting into or near to the sort of closer to the the big house or to the more delicate areas of the garden so you'd have this this ditch to stop that and it's you know creates a nice view and I think when you think about it our universities our education establishments they're actually quite like large country states and in lots of ways you know they generally sit within pretty extensive physical and increasingly digital spaces and our senior managers they sit in their offices and they peruse their state and I think you could say that there probably is quite a large metaphorical ha ha between them and us sometimes and I know working in the mainstream I sometimes feel that in a bit of that ditch and people are just kind of they don't see how hard all the work that goes on to create this lovely vista in front of them and I think this brings me to probably a key point we haven't really talked about and that's about the cost of opening and maintaining any kind of a state has a cost and as we all know open isn't free and that has huge implications for mainstreaming and its impact on mainstream education so we have some institutions have a lot of money and they can tend their garden and they can create open areas and they can subsume some of their current activities and they can do that pretty easily because they've got the money to do it others just know and I think we see this particularly with MOOCs they seem to I think they might be even selling the family silver to keep up because they're spending vast amounts of money on openness well I said others like my institution don't have that kind of money and our priorities and the way that our garden is growing is quite different and we have other senior management who are actually not interested in gardening they seem to be more interested in interior design at the moment and if you want to know any more about that just look at the Sunday Herald I think thinking on my practice I have benefited tremendously for being in a really luxurious position to develop my open practice when I was working for CITAS we were a nationally funded organisation I was fully supported to be open I was encouraged to blog to share and do things and you know it took a number of years for me to become the open practitioner that I am but I have the time and the space to do it not many of my colleagues in mainstream education have that luxury just now if you speak to any lecturer they have a lot of pressures on their time so we have to think about that and if we're asking people to take another thing into what they're doing into their practice if we don't have some pay off for them it's very very difficult and I think in the UK since the GIST Chire Education OER funding there's not been an awful lot of funding specifically for open projects for people so if you don't have money in your institution to get that little bit of time to buy out some time to do something around open is increasingly difficult and I'm kind of saddened in some ways because I think we are in danger of maybe creating another open silo where it's only the people who can afford to be open that are going to be open and it's only those and such of those that will be able to apply for any funding that is available and I think that's really sad because that's not mainstreaming and I don't think we want another silo like that however I don't think it's all doom and gloom it's a nice country park there I want to introduce you to the Gorilla Garden so just like we have Gorilla Research which I know Martin talks about a lot I think we can have Gorilla Educational Development as well this picture is of a bit, it's actually an old disused football pitch just round the corner where I live in Glasgow which wasn't used for many many years and there were some kind of recreational activities happening there but probably not the kind of things that you want to do you don't really want to know what happened there anyway the community have started to take this over and it's great there's raised vegetable patches there's some nice spring flowers there's things that happen there in the summer it's called the North Kelvin side meadow and if you know that part of Glasgow at all even the notion of having a meadow there it's quite interesting but it's great to see that kind of community taking over those kind of spaces and I think we can do that the same within education looking at those kind of more bottom-up approaches where things take root before people actually realise it what we did with Games On I've described that as a gorilla development the development of our OER guidelines that Marion Kelt I'm not sure if she's hearing that Marion Kelt has been doing that's kind of just gorilla we've just gone ahead and we've just done that so I think everyone can do that and we want to maybe encourage a bit more of that behaviour we can also not everyone can have a vast estate and we might want to think about the idea of window boxes or pots, I don't have a garden but I have a little bit of space where I have some pots outside my flat so if we can encourage our staff and our students just to have a little patch of openness that they can tend and can get the open bug then hopefully that will encourage them to do more in openness and to take over more formal and informal learnings spaces as well but I can't talk about gardening and education without talking about gardens this is a wall garden is on the island of Isla where my mum lives quite a nice quite a small estate but they open up the gardens I think about twice a year for people to go and have a look at it quite windy it's not the windiest of the islands but it's quite windy so you need some walls particularly for delicate plants to nurture them to help them grow and some of these plants will be put outside into the garden and others will always stay there and I think that's the same in education we have a duty of care to our staff and to our students to provide them with secure places where they can develop their skills their digital capabilities so we need our walled gardens in our institutions and places where we can help staff and students to develop their digital capabilities so that they're making the decisions as to how, when and why they interact openly and they really understand that so this is kind of one of those open paradoxes so while I'm standing up here and saying look at me I'm an open practitioner I fully recognise the need for closed spaces within our education system as well so I think we're doing okay for time so I just want to finish with this thought I think we can be open anywhere this is a picture of the Highline Garden in New York, I don't know if any of you have been there but it's just the most amazing space, you know a derelict railway line that is just, there's so many things happen there, there's a theatre there's art, there's soundscapes, it's everything and I'm sure the people that lived in New York dreamed that that derelict railway line could just be such a vibrant creative space and I think that's the same in our education system there's a lot that we can do we can create fantastic things through openness but we have to be flexible and we have to we have to accept a bit of open washing and we have to look for the trade-offs and we have to try and do that and support people in their journey to becoming more open practitioners on that thought, I will leave you thank you very much do you want to know what's in the bag? oh I can't tell you we've got about 10 minutes for questions and that gives time to get to the spot so if there are mics around congratulations on that talk that was excellent and makes one think of a lot of things I'm thinking particularly especially in Wales where they have a grand tradition of government support for e-learning unlike some parts of our still united kingdom the issue of a question I raised some informally I see the issue of the synergy between in the battle for open who are the allies of open and in particular especially with reference to all parts of the UK are the e-learning mob the allies of open are they the same people in what way are the different people and are there some tensions within that because I do see some factions with it straddling both communities as a number of us do I do see some factions there not always a commonality of interest which seems to me a bit worrying because in some sense the e-learning should be the shock troops or should have been the shock troops I'd be very interested in the answer and others would be too I think that's a great question I think there are natural allies and that e-learning people I think definitely I think e-learning technology units in mainstream education that's usually the people that are trying new things so there should be they are our obvious allies I think what I found going back into mainstream if you like from being in this fantastic crazy world where I wasn't involved say as much as Lorna and colleagues in the OER projects themselves but I certainly knew about them I think it's just the lack of awareness and I know Cable and Josie talked about that it's just a lack of awareness about openness because it doesn't really fit into people's key priorities and we don't have enough people in senior management positions that are driving that yet I think in terms of learning technology we're getting to a point where we have more people now in senior positions who can really bring about change and they actually know what they're talking about so that is making a huge difference to a lot of institutions and I think we've probably got a way to go with that in openness I think it's starting to happen but I think it goes back to this actually we all need to think about ourselves and see that we are open educational resources and I think it's always this tension between product and platform and people in process and I think that's very much in this community as well and it's like well I'm going to do this open thing do I have to buy something and it's actually well no it's like we all know to do anything in education it's not really what you buy the technology you buy it's the people that are going to implement it and we have to work with people Hi Hi Sheila Nick Shepherd from Leeds Beckett University thanks for the talk I've worked historically in both open access research and open education people are probably aware there's an awful lot going on at the moment in open access with the Heffgey mandates etc and ironically that seems to be sort of I don't know taken away from the open education stuff really and there's the mandates and all the rest of it I mean I'd be interested in your perspectives on that as well Obviously that was I deliberately didn't talk about that in my talk because it's not something that I have a huge amount of experience with and I'm probably not the best qualified person to deal with that but yeah from an outside kind of a vested interest point of view yeah it's kind of those drivers we get so far and yeah I think yeah I'm probably not going to make any sense because I don't know what's written down from the questions I think it's this tension about this is maybe where open washing gets quite dangerous and although I'm kind of in a kind of jokie way saying you know we can't maybe have to live with a bit of open washing but it does get quite a serious and we're getting into we need to make sure that we have people who really know what they're talking about and really understand the implications of what they're doing so this is probably a total copate and I really don't know how to answer your question properly sorry probably other people do try to interestingly I work across our industries because of the last few years where I think that's quite an asset to be in addition to learning and teaching and the year of the year was the fourth accident considering the occasion which is the main widening access because across the UK there was a message in that domain that was kind of all the same this year a lot of the problems are being had here in our universe and I said that in a couple of years in that moment too and seeing about 50% from the after that in other sense being at my end in the sense of that so I don't think back to them being important I'm not really familiar with what's going on in the ed tech or the wider level of education we ask thousands to be so and I don't want to push off any ways to be the next action actually because of that factor we're similar in the background so it's acting up that dynamic so I hope if they're not by yet that they will be catching that and I think that's true and we're all kind of going back to Paul's question none of our, the ed tech community we're not really mainstream yet we're getting there a bit with technology but it's not, we're not mainstream I mean I'm still seeing and our unit is still seeing not really, people only come to us when they really have a problem so we actually don't know often what people are doing either so it's difficult to know what really is happening in the mainstream It's Marin Diebel from the Association for Learning Technology Sheila I loved your talk and while I agree with you with the challenges that we have they're not small it's left me really inspired and yesterday Cable ended his keynote by telling us what Cable Green would like to see happen and I wonder as an open practitioner is there a takeaway for you what you would like to see happen for you from a personal perspective? Yeah I mean I think Cable had some really pragmatic and useful solutions to use in mainstreaming I think for me the key thing that I would like is more senior management support for doing things for them to really understand about openness and not in a moot context but really understand what open education and open educational resources can do for the university and for the institution and that's what I would really like so I would like to see as being able to have these kind of conversations at a much higher level and because I'm only a senior lecturer I don't get to speak to the bosses very often you know I don't have much clout I don't have any clout from my institution Hi I love the keynote lots of great points particular stuff about time and costs for academics I particularly loved your point about gorilla gardening and I was thinking that in the context of the changes to higher education do you think that's also very much a point for how important it is to encourage lots of small innovative unique styles and approaches to OER and not just end up with large bland sort of more commodified branded OERs than MOOCs Yes Ideally I think that's just now who we can do things if you get people that are interested and this is just from my point of view if you can do something small with them you can really have quite an instant impact again it goes back to your context I think you have to do a balancing act because we're trying to get things higher up into strategy and policy because I think there are certain things that you can do if you think about it at a strategic level that makes those kind of small projects easier to do as well so I think it's a balancing act just now where I'm sitting I'm kind of more on the kind of gorilla side of things because it's just where I am but you know I would love to see more thought being given at kind of our strategy level and how we can start really thinking about our whole infrastructure and how we can make openness just yet another part of things that people do in their day to day lives and it's not a huge barrier it's not something that they're scared of Dominic and then we'll wrap up by the way that's gorilla as in warfare not gorilla as in big ape I think somebody will get confused Thank you Dominic Llesch so thank you for the inspiration my sort of question or comments because you're talking a lot about senior management in higher education but what about sort of doing outreach that doesn't have to be on those levels that were senior academics people like Martin who has laudably done a lot to sort of model good practice but there's lots of people who keep publishing books in closed ways they don't get anything out of it anymore they don't need the prestige they don't get any money so I want to reach out to them and say let's publish the next big book on whatever as an openly licensed book but perhaps it would take a lot of the people in this room to go out and start doing a lot of outreach and sort of a personal personal influence spreading Yeah absolutely I think that's happening, I think that's starting to happen I think a lot more people are doing things openly there's a lot more collaboration that's happening so when I'm asked to do things now I'm one of the first things I ask is it going to be openly available because I'm going to write something and I don't write books or anything like that but a couple of book chapters most recent book chapters have all been CC licensed as well and that's been quite crucial in me deciding whether or not to take part in that project so I think it is happening Okay, I've got to say thank you for an amazing keynote I'm so glad you said yes That's really good, so give it a hand and I'll see you next week Thank you