 You're watching Life in the Law here on Think Tech Hawaii. We air every Wednesday from 1 to 1.30. And we talk about issues that are relevant to your everyday life and larger issues as well. Today I'm very excited to have Young Hee Oferly on the show. Welcome, Young Hee. Thank you. Is that Young Hee, or would you like me to call you Young? Young Hee is fine. OK, great. Thank you for having me here. Oh, I'm so glad you're here. We met sort of through the Women's March on Washington tangentially through Sherry Campania. And so maybe you want to talk a little bit about your experience with the women's rights movement and where you see it's coming from and going to, something along those lines. Sure. So I will start with my experience at Women's March. OK, yeah, because that would be great. Because she made it to the Women's March unlike me. She actually went to Washington. Yes, so I was one of the over a million people in DC. And it is an experience that I am going to be remembering. It's hugely important. You know, when they announced it, when there were Facebook posts about it back in November, instinctively I felt that I need to go. I had absolutely no idea what it was going to turn out to be. But there I was with friends and other fellow activists. And we were expecting about $200,000, $250,000. We would have been happy, I think, if it was $200,000. Right. Because it was such a short time period. Right. And it was all grassroots. And it got organized very quickly. And there were a lot of chaos and debate in the planning cycle. So we didn't know that there would not be so many people. But it went off so perfectly. And across the world, people joined, too, which was, I found very moving, frankly, that people in France and people in Germany and people in England marched in solidarity with us. That was just terrific. Right. And even, you know, I think there were over 100 countries that was involved. And it gave a meaning to global sisterhood, if that makes sense. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. You know, Yang, I want to ask you, because everyone always asks me. People say this, what are we marching for? So what are we marching for? I have an answer, but I want to hear your answer. Sure. My answer is, instinctively, when it was just getting formulated as an idea on Facebook, I felt that I need to be part of this, because we need to be visible. Absolutely. The rhetoric from President Trump during his campaign about women were so repulsive that I felt that I need to be there as a woman to be visible to say, we're not going back. Right, exactly. We are not going back. I agree. There's a whole host of rights that I'm just not ready to give up. Right, right. And to be joined by millions of people, men and women, many, many, many men there. My husband went here to Honolulu. Right. And young and old, multi-multi-generations, and do that peacefully was, I think the fact that we did it peacefully was most amazing. I think that's, I agree. Because it shows that we could do it. We could resist. We could get our voices heard in millions and do it peacefully. Right, right. And that, and what you pointed out, the fact that it happened around the world. Right, I thought that was, it's spontaneously. Yes. It's not like this was a big two-year event that people were planning and recruiting for. It was a spontaneous eruption. Right, right. Because I think people were so stunned about the election and about the kinds of things Donald Trump says that they just, as you said, it resonated with people. So it gave life to grassroots movement, right? So it wasn't just about women's rights. It gave life to grassroots movement. It gave life to global movement. It gave life to what is possible over social media. So there are so many aspects of the march that I'm sure there will be case studies and case studies. I think so. Well, you know, I think the march affected this temporary straining order in Washington. I mean, there's such a clear voice for certain causes, you know? And it's clear people are not going to stand for certain behaviors when we're not going backward. We're not going to prevent somebody from entering the country just because of what religion they might practice. We're just not giving in. And you can't ignore that. If you're an intelligent person, like your judge, you can't ignore that there's so many people that just, it's a verse to their ethical code, you know? Right. Actually, I think what's going on in this country and perhaps in the world is us reflecting on what rights are we now willing to give up, right? And what are we marching for? And answering it at a personal level. And how do I fit into the bigger movement? I think many of us are asking that question. Right. I am. I'm certainly asking that question. What can I do? What am I going to do? How am I going to participate going forward? Right. And what was so exciting was that there are so many young people involved in this. So many. It was great. Yeah. The main organizers are young themselves, right? The younger than me, for sure. Yeah, me too. And then it's also giving the young generation energy to fight for the kind of world they want to live in. Right. So that was very empowering for me to see so many young people there. I and my friends also took nine college students with us. Oh, did you? Yeah, from the students from North Carolina to the March. That must have been fantastic. And it was just great to be with them. And they have left also saying, I'm going to quote one of them. He said that this is a life-changing experience for me. Good. And he thanked us for bringing him. Good. He thanked us for asking him. Well, it really is when you're in your formative years and you become part of a group. And your heart and your spirit are so into the message. And you realize that everybody's for one. And you're part of a large dynamic organism. It's very moving. It's very influential. You know what I mean? Right, right. I mean, it certainly happened to me in the 60s and 70s when I marched for various things against the war, women's rights, anti-apartheid. It's all inspiring to participate. And like you said, we are one of the organisms of bigger work. And it gives a purpose, right, at personal level. So I'm obviously, I didn't get to participate in the 1960s movement. Good, you're nice and young. Now I get to do it, right? Well, it really feels very similar. I mean, where people just aren't going to take it. They're busting out of their everyday humdrum lives to take a political stance. After the 60s, everybody just sort of accepted things. Reagan, they accepted things as they went on. But people are no longer willing to sit back and just go to their job and accept things, and accept things that are coming down by executive order, whatever. They're not. They're standing up. They're going to the airport. They're going to Washington. Right, right, right. It's just not going to fly. Right. And all the executive orders that has come out, the gag orders, whether we are talking about two EPA or global gag rule that he reinstated, that I think it's going to get us to more to resist. I think so. To push back. I think that's right. Because one of the fundamental rights we have as American is right of speech. That's right. Freedom of speech. And the very fact that, OK, let me step back. As an executive, President Trump does have right to put gag order on specific things because there's a reason for it. Right, for a reason. It's a compelling reason, yeah. Other presidents have used that, right? But this feels like, because the first gag that came out was around how many people were at integration, right? He gagged National Park from expressing what they observed. Right, right. And he had National Park to retract what they have tweeted about. So from the very beginning, from almost day one of his presidency, he put a gag order. Oh, yeah. And it was for the personal benefit. So this time, it doesn't feel like he's doing it for true business purpose. Because he has to, he has some project, or some build. I think it feels inauthentic. I think you're right. Correct. And it feels like he's doing it for selfish reasons. And I think Americans are smart. I think we sense it. And that's why we're going to push back even more. I think so. But I think, I hope, you see, Jerry asks, how did you get him to change? Or how are you going to get him to move? It's pressure over time. It's not an, peaceful resistance is not an explosive thing. It's pressure over time. It's marching day, year, and year out, sometimes month in, month out. But it's constant pressure. And what makes it so successful is the idea that the authorities are just beside themselves, because they don't know how to make it stop. They want to make it stop, and they have no idea how to make it stop, but just get stronger and stronger and stronger. Right, right. And you used the word peaceful movement. Yes, any peaceful movement. By the way, peaceful movements are far more successful than modern ones, right? So this is the only way to do it. Agreed, completely agree. And I feel like women's march was beginning of that. And it does take a long time. It does, because people have to know that you mean it and know that you're going to stick to your gun. You know, there's going to be a woman's strike on February 17th. There's going to be a general woman's strike. So that should be interesting to see if people actually take off of work and don't go into work. And there's going to be an LGBTQ march during Gay Pride Week in Washington. So this is like these are the things, the upcoming things, that people are like, oh, they're not going to wait away. They're not going to give in. We're not going to be able to scare them or shut them up, which is what they want to do. Trump wants to silence the press. He thinks the press should just shut up. Like, that's like an unconstitutional. They said, press doesn't listen, shut up and listen. Right, exactly. That's an unconstitutional statement. I mean, there's provisions for freedom of the press and the Constitution. It's a very significant right we have to a free press. And it's also a fabric of who we are as America. And when you take something so precious like that, by the way, something we take for granted. Because I took it for granted that I have freedom of speech. Right, before the election, I think I did. And to feel that that's being threatened, this is what makes America truly great. That's true. And I say that as an immigrant. Which is the most powerful testament to the American idea, the American project. But we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back in just about a minute, we'll continue our discussion about our place in society. Hi, I'm Tim Appichella. I'm the host for Moving Hawaii Forward. And the show is dedicated to transportation and traffic issues in Oahu. We are all frustrated by sitting in our cars in bumper to bumper traffic. And this show is dedicated to talking with folks that not only we can define the problem, but we hopefully can come to the table with some solutions. So I invite you to join me every Tuesday at 12 noon. And let's move Hawaii forward. Aloha. I'm Kawi Lukas, host of Hawaii is my mainland here on Think Tech Hawaii every Friday afternoon at 3 PM. Start your powhuna weekend off with the show where I talk to people about issues pertinent to Hawaii. You can see my previous shows at my blog, kawelukas.com, and also on Think Tech's show. Sorry. Frances Aki, you're watching Life in the Law. We're with Young Overly today talking about peaceful resistance and the women's movement. And Young, just before the break, made a wonderful testament to the power of the idea of the United States of America because she's an immigrant. And tell me what that means for somebody that's an immigrant. Tell me. I mean, because that's something I learned in school and something I truly believe in. I feel patriotic. But I think you must experience it in a much greater way. Right. So I immigrated to the United States in 1974 from South Korea. Most of my life in South Korea, President Park was the dictator. He was a military general who took over the government and ruled with Iron Vest. And slowly, we watched freedom being taken away, including freedom of press that we just talked about. And one of my earliest memories I have is my dad donating money to, we weren't well to do. But he still somehow managed to find money to donate to a newspaper. The very last newspaper, they resisted President Park before it was shut down. That's such a heroic thing to do. So the newspaper pretty much operated on individual donations for years. And my dad was one of the donors. So a message I got from my dad through that act, although he did not say anything explicitly, was that we have responsibility as individual citizens to stand for what we believe, even if it means just donating money to support what he believes in. You do what you can. Sometimes people don't know what they can do. And they feel like, well, I can't go to Washington, so I can't do anything. But that's not true. Any little thing you can do, any little light you can shine on the problem is a help. I think it's to each person according to what they can do. And that's how I translated his action. And the other thing he did for us was, why it was important to him that he got information, that balanced information, not propaganda. And I think he said what he said because he's originally from North Korea. OK, so he's really familiar. He escaped North Korea during the Korean War. So he understands the value of freedom of information and speech. And what was happening to the press was so against his belief, what he came to South Korea for. So that's what I watched. So coming to US in the middle of all that in 1974 and realizing that there wasn't that level of oppression and then I started to take it for granted. Well, we shouldn't because we're starting to see, again, institutions being shut down, oppression of speech. We originally talked about, and this is something that this incident has made me nuts, that Elizabeth Warren was silenced in the Senate for reading a letter by Coretta Scott King. Now, I don't know if people realize, but Coretta Scott King stood beside Martin Luther King in very nearly everything he did. If you look at pictures of her, she's there. So it's a particular kind of insult to want to silence this kind of voice. And it just was also, I found it, talk about inauthentic. I found it a little bit inauthentic. I thought that Mitch McConnell was posturing for the Senate because really what she was saying was not really, didn't really insult sessions very much, didn't impugn his reputation. But they're just getting puffed up, that they won't tolerate anything. They're showing they're not going to tolerate any speech anymore that's averse to their interests, you know? And it was, I think, Senator Udo who ended up finishing reading Coretta Scott King's letter when it was his turn. In honor of Mrs. King, but also in honor of Elizabeth Warren, in support of her. But the very fact that as I'm watching, rather, as I'm reading about what happened, I can't help thinking Tom versus Elizabeth. Why is it that Elizabeth was shut down, but Tom was? Well, I'll tell you why. And it's the same reason. And people are going to disagree with me why Betsy DeVos came so close to not being appointed. And I disagree with her. I hardly disagree with her. But you know what? It's easier to shoot down women. It's easier to stop women. And people, I said to people, you'll see if they're successful, they'll be successful with DeVos, because people understand a woman thwarted. Like they think women should step down, should step aside, should listen to a male authority figure who's saying, be quiet. It feels normal to people. It feels comfortable to them. Right. Partially accepting, right? Right, yeah. Perhaps even without realizing that that's what we are doing. Oh, yeah, I know absolutely not realizing. Because in the case of DeVos, obviously, it was liberals. But I think people really need to examine what they think is normal, what is acceptable. Because I've talked to so many women, and lots of women my age, little younger, I've never been discriminated against. But you have to think, what does that mean? I mean, have you ever been looked over because the boss liked someone else? Because the boss liked basketball? And so that person did too. That's discrimination. I mean, we haven't really dug deeply enough into the psychology of Hillary Clinton, I believe, lost because of discrimination. Into how deep rooted this fear of powerful women is. I mean, it's hugely deep rooted. You know what I mean? Like us, people don't like us. We should be quiet, people think. Yeah, and the argument is, oh, she was warned, and she ignored it and continued on. Guess what? 100 years ago, women were warned as well. But we thought that women wouldn't have rights to vote. So at times, we have to reflect on ourselves and examine our own cultural bias on things like that. Agreed. But reading it, that was the first thing that popped into my mind is, why was Elizabeth shut down when time wasn't? How come he got to finish reading? But you know, when you ask those questions, I ask those questions every day almost, really, literally. And typically to men in power. And when you ask those questions, people respond by saying, you're hyper-focused on this issue, or this is just a coincidence that it was Elizabeth Warren. But you know, how many coincidences can there be? How much repeated behavior do you have to witness in order to realize, hey, this is a deep rooted bias against women? Right. It is a deep rooted behavior. And perspective, we have that if left unchallenged and without the reflection, we're not going to make any progress. I agree. I agree. So that's, you know, I guess one way or the other way to look at it is, now, what kind of looks like an idiot? I think he does. And I think he blew a little tiny molehill into a huge mountain. Correct. And even Fox News, I watched Fox News once in a while to just make sure that I have balanced the view. Exactly. If you want to see the other side. And even Fox News felt that McConnor made a huge mistake by doing this. So I guess if you want to look for something good out of it, perhaps this will get me to do some self-reflection. I hope so. I mean, I hope people ask the question, why her? Why was she chosen to be silenced? Right. To me, the answer always is very clear. But you were talking about giving up rights and us thinking about what rights we're going to give up. Part of the problem is, somebody is going to have to give up rights. And the dominant male white men who've had extra rights, really, for the history of this country, are going to actually have to give up some of their privileged rights. So that we can all, in order for us all to be able to share in those and to participate in those. And whenever I see somebody like Mitch McConnell, I always think, well, that's your last holding on. You need to hold on to that. You just can't let that go. You're just not going to let the fact that you're in charge, you're in charge of women. You're not going to let it go. And what Mitch may not be willing to let go is the old idea of masculinity. Oh, absolutely. And I just finished my master's degree just last year. And my thesis was on engaging men and boys to prevent violence against women. OK. And in that research, I started thinking that this was a central part of cultural change we need. That we need to do this to stop gender-based violence, right? I think you're right. And what I have learned through my research is, and I think I am right on that assertion, but what I have also learned is that men benefit by reflecting on themselves and re-looking at masculinity as defined and challenging it and redefining what it means to be a man. Well, then we have to spread that message around. And this is why I'm hoping that Senator McConnell will do some self-reflection as an outcome of this. I hope so. I hope so. I hope he realizes that he really made a misstep. And alienated people just by his choice of his choice. But it's interesting. The classical cultural bias or masculine way of being is a violence toward women. It's not even a violence just toward women. It's a violence. It's an aggression toward the world. This is how men were taught to be men through aggression. And it is unnatural for many men. But I think it is. Right? To play the role of men as defined by a Western definition of masculinity. So again, I couldn't help thinking through that today as I was reading saying, will the fact that this has become bigger than it needs to be for Senator McConnell, would that force him to think about himself? I hope so. I certainly hope so. I also know, and we're running out of time here, that he was a letter by a woman that was also silent. So it's so complicated. It's so multi-layered how deep it goes. And nobody wants to look. People are always like, oh, that's just a coincidence or that they would have done it with anyone. But yet, there's a woman reading a letter by a woman who's silenced by the head of the other party. And the very fact that Senator is from the South, right? And the very fact that there are photos of him with Confederate flags being posted everywhere. He can't change his stripes. People are connecting the dots. Yes, yes. We are not the only people are connecting the dots. Let's hope the Senate connects the dots, although I don't think they will. I want to thank you so much for coming.