 Hi, this is you hostable in party and welcome to brand new episode here for newsroom and today we have with us once again You'll in Fisher, see you and founder of any nice. You'll instead to have gonna show how it's great to be here If I'm not wrong a few days ago the Cloud Foundry community, you know, you force folks hosted Cloud Foundry days in Heidelberg talk a bit about the event the focus well after So many years in Cloud Foundry in the Cloud Foundry ecosystem It was it was just great to see You know this year's Cloud Foundry day It was a special event to me You know, I'm trying to find the right words to describe it, but I would say it's It's grown a very new Uplifting spirit It is it has been the best Cloud Foundry event I've I've been attending to in in quite a while You know the spirit of the event was very very uplifting and the conversations I had Aware as well. So after you know that Kubernetes trauma has happened and has affected the Cloud Foundry community for a while I now have the feeling that the community has healed. So there there are new participants there They are, you know, the ones I've been used to see on every event, but it's a mixture of both So it's it's very good to see that happening And it really gave me more and a lot more momentum To participate in in Cloud Foundry even more again. So in that in that Respect, it was a wonderful event event. I know what I'm going to say may not be very popular But I've seen events they grow communities they grow they become huge and massive But I really miss those days when the communities and the event was smaller. You knew everybody you walk in the room You knew all 50 people you have right discussions when it comes too big You cannot even it's becomes too much noise. Can you talk about when you're at the event? What were some themed patterns discussions that you heard or you were involved with engage with With the community. Well, first thing to say is It's not only the sheer number of people showing up at an event. It is especially what you just mentioned. It's the the conversations That show whether there's a spirit or whether, you know, everybody's I don't know Somewhere some someplace else in the mind, but not at the conference not in the topic so the conversations where a lot about You know the progress of Cloud Foundry at the same time also about classic Cloud Foundry because It's it's still being used at scale and you know, we've been discussing this for for, you know, quite quite a few years now But when we talk about Cloud Foundry in the classic stack the VM based Cloud Foundry with existing customers Having those large environments. They are still Very confident that this is the right solution for them. So When when Kubernetes became so So ubiquitous a few years ago, I thought well a classic Cloud Foundry will go away much quicker But in fact it doesn't it it came to stick and it came to stay and that's exactly what it does because of its operational Responsibility so that that is absolutely unbroken at the same time Cloud Foundry and Kubernetes appears to conquer a different niche it is how you know much smaller It allows to to download and install a Cloud Foundry You know get that CF push user experience use build packs and and had all have all those You know wonderful aspects of Cloud Foundry, but at a large smaller infrastructure footprint So in my opinion the idea of on-demand Cloud Foundry environments or small-scale Cloud Foundry environments with Cloud Foundry for Kubernetes is Corfy in other words It's just getting more mature and we are now at a point in time when when using Cloud Foundry based on Corfy is a thing especially if if you have the prerequisites to meet the current You know applicability in that sense that the environment won't get too big and that you don't need You know all the features of the classic Cloud Foundry include its ability to You know scale to scale out that much when you're talking with a community as you like that discussion the quality of discussion matter So what are some of the where you like these are the common theme that you saw? at the event when you're talking to folks because you know different players not players, but Different you know people came to to the event. What were you like hearing and seeing there? Well, naturally people talk to me about About topics that I'm known for so there's a certain resonance In that respect I have to mention that there's a bias in my conversations, but One of the topics still is how to manage data at scale so, you know the data service automation is is is still an issue for many companies developing application development platforms With Kubernetes becoming more important, you know, some of them are making experiments to run databases on Kubernetes Some of them they stick with the idea of virtual machines, which also is fine And then you know cross integration becomes an issue So if if you have some services on based on virtual machines like we had any nines do But also have data services on kubernetes such as we at any nines do you also have to think about Cross-integration, so how can you consume data services from kubernetes and vice versa? How can you consume kubernetes services from a cloud foundry? so it's a guy it's again about writing service brokers and custom resource definitions in In the most and best meaningful way So that's a topic that We've discussed Which you know also Another interesting aspect is the depth of automation So let's say about let's let's talk about postgres It's it's one of the the oldest data service we automate and if you look at at the depth This automation has reached to this day. This is already pretty amazing So let's say you move the first time to you know, a manufacturing industry There are different requirements than moving to towards customer from the financial industry Think about backups and the different policies you could implement with postgres so You know the more mature conversations of the more mature technologies They are always about well how to push the edge of automation even further and get those edge cases You know covered That haven't been covered so far what kind of trends you are seeing when it's come to cloud foundry kubernetes Where when you talk to these so these are the things that are going in the production These are challenges. We're overcoming. Of course, you mentioned choreography. Can you talk about that? You know, we recently spoke about open stack as a community that has grown You know quite a lot that has a lot of publicity and and then you know open stack to some to some degree Has lost, you know the visibility in in the broader tech community But that does that mean that open stack is gone? Absolutely not. We encounter open stack in many customers Customer accounts to this day it it has established As a technology it is just that a lot of people had to accept that building your own Amazon in in your own data center of choice isn't as Cost-effective or easy as as people may have hoped for and this hope that has been disappointed Fueled, you know the the open stack movement to the day when people realized. Oh, it's it's happening But you know on the different constraints and and that drove people away to look at the news shiny thing So to some sort and to some degree, this is just the natural progress So just because people don't talk about cloud foundry the way they did in 2016 anymore, it doesn't mean that the cloud foundry is gone. It's there and it It's solid. So I think that's that's absolutely fair and okay. Yeah, the best I mean Linux kernel, right? Nobody talks about the kernel but kernel is the backbone of modern economy No matter you talk about AWS or Apple or Microsoft or Google or Tesla's, you know, everything learns on Linux So just because not shiny doesn't mean it's gone. Yeah, sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you No, you're right. The Linux kernel is there to stay it. It's a centerpiece But even if you conquer a particular niche, you can you know have a very long lifetime in that niche as well So if you if you think about Kubernetes for example, I Still believe that Kubernetes has cannibalized many different movements So it got momentum from the open stack movement where it consumed those Disappointed people who were looking for in infrastructure abstraction layer who don't want to deal with hardware And and don't want to deal with proprietary You know infrastructure automation API, so you'd have to deal with look at Bosch CPI for example You have an implementation for open stack for for vSphere for Ali cloud and for every major hyperscaler If you know, that's that's a lot of work So do you really want to do that work as when you develop a Automation framework for distributed systems So if if Kubernetes is ubiquitous and you can get Kubernetes on every infrastructure, you know Kubernetes becomes infrastructure abstraction and that's a movement that still goes on and I think that's where Kubernetes has tapped into the momentum of of the open stack community because You know, it was simple to to get this momentum due to all this disappointment They they stirred up over the years and they created over the years So there was a vulnerability that came from the open stack movement that made them accessible to the Advantage of a different movement and if you think about Docker for example You know the pivot from being a platform company to having you know a container orchestra a Container technology and then failing to establish a container orchestration tool in a broader scale There was that that execution, you know, it's simple for me to say it was a mistake, but it somehow somehow Kubernetes got that you know position in the race to to to use Docker and You know do not conflict with the choice of the container technology but still own the orchestration part of it and So there's another movement Kubernetes tapped into and at the same time, you know, they they entirely Decommercialized Kubernetes itself and and and forged it into become, you know, the prime standard of writing automation Declarative cloud automation these days. So what is Kubernetes? Kubernetes is not about deployments or stateful sets or replica sets It today is about being the framework for writing declarative automation and and and that's that's you know Kubernetes became so much and That that it is hard to say what it what it is, you know with one sentence It you can't and that's why Kubernetes doesn't compete with Cloud Foundry Kubernetes doesn't compete with Mises Kubernetes is is an ecosystem It's you know, it's a technology, but it's also the ecosystem and and that's what people need to understand is Kubernetes becomes what you needed to become Depending on a particular context because only with the context you can Potentially determine what a kuba what Kubernetes is is it just a place to store apps or is it the place to run databases? Or is it a place to do event processing or whatever analytics? Julian, thank you so much for taking time out today and sit down and talk about these topics. Thank you And I look forward to our next discussion. Thank you. Well, thank you very much for having me and it's always a pleasure talking to you and You know your questions always get me excited So hopefully we are going to have more opportunity in the near future to talk about more exciting things