 Great. Welcome to Senate Education. The week prior to Town Meeting Week, two weeks before crossover, as we just discussed in Democratic Caucus, and maybe in Republican Caucus as well, we have a lot of priorities to get out. I think we're going to be fine, more than fine, unless we get any big surprises from our state librarian. I think we'll be in good shape by the end of this week on the two literacy bills. I'd like to combine them. I don't know if we'll get the CT this week, but we may. I hope we do. I think we'll get the libraries this week and move those out of here. And then when we come back, we will have a number of things to deal with, but we do have some extra time because we do have an age bill and we, I'm told, we're getting the slainist education bill from the House. And then the other thing that came up last week, I just want to move back to S-120. This is an accrued post-secondary school, as the section was titled. Ms. Robinson and Ms. Koenig are getting together this week to talk about that. And I texted both of them last evening, and I go to Senator Sheen. This is a private program. He and I reached out to one another. And so hopefully they will bring something to this committee that everybody's agreement on. And then we can, you know, maybe move forward. And then the only other thing that I see going on at the University of Vermont is a new logo. Which is, yes, I just don't know if we, yeah, we'll go to that. Anything else? Okay. Ms. Delnaio, thanks a million for joining us. We still have a few things to view in this bill on Rio 3. I think largely we have settled most of it. I think the one thing, and I think Beth, actually I talked to Beth, it is in here. She's watching, she's probably laughing from asking me again, when we do a final walkthrough, I just want to make sure teachers have options around how they might get caught up in literacy. So if you don't have to do the modules, it means if you have a class, you do all these kinds of things. And when I did talk to Beth last, that was in here. But I know that's not why you're here specifically. If you were here to talk about the Imagination Library. And prior to us going live, you and I had a conversation we hadn't seen 4.1s and you were working off an earlier version of the bill. And so let me just mention a couple of things. First of all, before we move into the Imagination Library, we have, you have the State Librarian Board designate on the council, we've had, and you're with that. And then what we were talking about in terms of the Imagination Pilot, this is I believe the same stuff, what we're trying to do is we're thinking about is there a way to create a fund that would allow programs throughout the state to access dollars that would put books in the hands of young children. We've taken enough testimony here to realize that I think that's what you could make. We couldn't prioritize AOE positions for this kind of thing. We couldn't do things, you know, it would just be too much. What we did think is maybe, and I would say maybe because I've even fooled everyone, is there a way to have $100,000 fund that all of a sudden the Imagination Library in Rutland could access, other programs could access, that sort of thing. And then the only other piece of this is I know a few of us have talked to Gianna Brown in the house who is connected to Cliff. And she, I know she said she'd be going to pop down at some point to talk to us. So this would be the works. I'd say beautiful. If it doesn't, it isn't going to help get books in the hands of kids in an efficient way, or then I don't know if we would move forward. The only other person I talked to was Representative Tessia Bust for a while and kind of threw this out at her as well. So the house is a little bit kind of engaged in it, but I wouldn't say that they've endorsed it by any means. So that's where we're at. Thank you. Shall I just start with a testimony? My name is Catherine Delano. I am the State Librarian and the Commissioner of Libraries, and I appear to provide joint testimony from myself and also from Secretary, Interim Secretary Buche, who is the Interim Secretary of the Agency of Education. Great. And just to be clear, you're not going to even talk about the earlier, you're going to talk about what I just talked about. The only thing that I'm, I will say one thing, which is that I absolutely support the inclusion of the State Librarian or their designate on the council. Great. And I appreciate that that has made it this far in the bill. And as I'm providing testimony, you'll see why that's so important and how I think in the long term that will be to the good of urban literacy of the state. So as you were just sharing the Secretary and I, we were responding to the draft that we saw the committee discuss, I think on Thursday last week, which was draft 1.1. So we prepared testimony jointly on that. And I just have seen draft 4.1 now. So I'll try to pivot a little bit and incorporate things that are relevant still on draft 1.1. I really appreciate the opportunity to provide testimony to you on the topic of S303 and after related to supporting young readers. We really appreciate the committee's interest in this topic and we really appreciate the commitment that you all have to helping young readers in Vermont be ready for kindergarten, be ready to succeed with reading. And we greatly respect the work of Dolly Parton as both a reporting artist and as a leader in children's literacy and also greatly respect the senator who brought the bill forward and others in the house who have brought similar bills forward in the past. We really appreciate the committee taking our concerns seriously and contemplating what we're sharing today. And after having had the opportunity to carefully review draft 1.1 and now briefly review draft 4.1 and also to listen in on the committee's discussion last week, I'm here to present you with our additional feedback and concerns. So we believe that the grant program is contemplated while well-intended may be duplicative of work happening at a local level and that it may not truly meet the committee's goal of expanding access to books for kids who are most in need. There's significant work being done in our state both in public libraries by the staff and agency of administration and schools and by the Department of Libraries to ensure that children in Vermont have access to book in their communities and in their homes. Home libraries can definitely play an important role in fostering an environment of learning. That said, public libraries remain the best and largest source of free books for families and public libraries support the emerging literacy needs of our state's youngest readers and as I spoke into the committee about earlier in the session, the needs of the parents and the childcare providers, the grown parents, the caregivers in learning to model behaviors with books. Public libraries welcome families to borrow books for home use that are based on the interests of each child and each family and I will just make an aside here from the written testimony which is that there is nothing worse than giving a child the wrong book. As you guys are like here and when do you give a kids a trust book when they want the dinosaur book? Look at that is not a great situation. So making sure that kids have access to books that are of interest to them is so important and making sure that they are going to be successful and that there is a motivation for them to read. Our testimony was really in response to the state expansion model that was contemplated in version 1.1. And as we understood from the testimony around Ledge Council, that option is employed by certain states to proliferate the Dolly Parton Imagination Library non-profits. That bill proposed $100,000 in grant funds facilitated by AOE to be allocated to local schools, school districts and public libraries so that there would be free books for children, age 0 to 5 in communities. One thing that is cleared from draft 1.1 and that I also noticed here in draft 4.1 is that the program as contemplated by both of these bills talks about these matching funds. And the matching funds, as we heard from Ms. St. James from Ledge Council and I believe also from Nora Briggs, the executive director of the Dolly Parton Imagination Library, that idea of the matching funds is really an idea of Dolly Partons, I would say. It does not align with the Parton to libraries method of addressing equity concerns for the most high-need families. And while I'm not a member of the agency of education staff, I don't believe that that idea aligns with their values either. Both of our department and agency strive to provide resources to youth in high-need communities and households. These two drafts really don't talk about who gets the books. They talk about that there's additional money for the books. And I am very close with a child who grew up in Littlebury and was signed up on birth and that child is the child of two academics. And there was, those were supplemental but not necessary. With the Imagination Library, they were sent up? Yes. Those are supplemental, not necessary books. With the limited funds that we have on our state, speaking for the department, I can say that my personal preference, our department's preference would be to find out which communities have the highest needs. Which libraries have the staffing to support the program and to really do a wrap around kind of a program. And not just say, here's some money, these organizations qualify for it and know how to go for it and go for it quickly. So as both of them both those drafts, 1.1 and 4.1 are drafted, it's not clear whether the highest need communities in Vermont can afford to match the state funds or whether that matching fund requirement is really going to support those with the highest need for resources in our state. The agency and the department are concerned that the group's best position to take advantage of that state expansion model in 1.1 would be the local Dolly Parton Imagination Library branches. And in this current model, that 100,000, I think that what the committee was trying to do was to expand it so it wasn't in that expansion library model, even though it was called that, was really, well, some other group could get it too. Because I think we're aware, as Senator Gullick shared about cliff existing, we know there are some other models out there. Maybe some others could get the money. With 4.1, it's really back to Imagination Library. They're the only ones who could go for those funds. And that's a concern. So 4.1 does not reflect what I mentioned to you about the outset. I mean, the committee, I think it's 6.6, the only Imagination Library. So Lech Council will give us a redraft. But I think what the committee's grappling with is, is there a need out there that we should be addressing or not? Is there a problem with that offer? Are low-income Vermonters not accessing books of their own, have books of their own that we can take some steps to address? Because we did hear the compelling testimony that makes a difference. But that's the way I would like you to think about this. And the answer, maybe there's no problem. In other words, there's organizations already, but maybe there is something. Well, let me share, let me skip forward a little bit in the prepared testimony, because I think that what you're asking is a question that would require a little bit more research. And one of the potential alternatives that we've outlined in the testimony that we shared with you today is that exploring statewide programs like Dolly Parton Imagination Library, exploring other states programs. The Department of Libraries in Idaho has a program that has been in existence since, hang on, let me check my notes. Since 1997, it's called My First Books. It is run by the State Library. It is targeted at a certain number of libraries each year. The library is a five. They don't just send books to a person's house. The kids pick them up at the library. They have a story time program that's really an enhanced learning opportunity for the caregivers, for the parents. That type of program might actually be a better way to meet the need than simply sending a set of books to a home. And I think that, you know, this is a very challenging budget year and we're all aware of that and all of the competing priorities. Given the budget crisis facing our communities, and with respect to the Education Fund this year, this may not be the best year to examine the implementation of a new program. I think both the Agency of Education and the Department want to be sure that if we're committing to something, it's the right something. There are other programs that are even implemented at a better level. There's a program called Reading is Fundamental. It started in 1996. They have distributed over 412 million books to over 40 million children in all 50 states. This is a tri-trusted true program that is really described by a lot of folks as kind of the bold standard. Why not look at that as well? So one thing that this bill gets right, in my opinion, is involving the Department of Libraries in the conversation about what needs to happen in the public library space from the birth of the child until they're five years old. So my recommendation would be let's have a little bit of time with the librarian on the council, the public librarian from the Department of Libraries, and let's look at these programs and let's see what might work for our state rather than moving forward with a program that it kind of feels like a hard sell. I'm not sure if you're aware, but almost the same exact bill language came in front of the House Education Committee in 2022 and the second week I was in my position as state librarian. This is sort of a thing that happens around the country where all of a sudden the Department of Libraries staff or agency staff are struggling to understand the program and respond to it, try to fit it in, and try to see how it works with us. I think that our children deserve a more ledger approach, and I like what you're asking the question of does the need exist. I bet it does, but let's find out the need and then how to meet the need rather than jumping in. It's very well intentioned. There's still space for this program in our state as a nonprofit and they're doing good work, but it's kind of, it's for everybody, it's not for the highest need folks, and we know in Vermont we have limited funds and we want to get them to the right communities. It doesn't make sense to give free books to kids whose parents can afford hearing books as a supplemental. This has been great, and I think I sort of jotted down some language that maybe we could strike what's there and add it to maybe the duties and responsibilities of the council, but Senator Gillett, please. Thank you, Chair. Did I hear you say that you could, this is something that you could look into this being like a grant program for folks for kids in your role on the literacy council? I think that that would be a good place, both the Secretary and I agree that that would be a good place to look at the need and how to potentially best meet it for the state in a budget year where there were fewer constraints on the resources. This year it seems like, you know, it's not a program that either the Agency of Education or the Department of Libraries would bring forward to ask for funds on our, if you look at the Department of Libraries budget, it makes the 3% increase. It's not, we wouldn't be bringing this right now. We're trying to keep everything level and keep our services constant and consistent for the record. I'm really thankful that you're willing to do that work. And what a great idea to sort of confide it in the literacy council. So I really appreciate you mentioning that. That's great. Well, I'm excited to do that type of work and I have a lot of experience personally with youth services. I've taken so many of the trainings that are offered over the time that I've been a librarian and I really feel like what we need in Vermont is more access to those trainings for professionals in libraries so that they can get some of that same experience and training. Our department has a full of offering a series of early childhood literacy classes for youth services librarians later this fall that will do a series of three classes with an expert in early childhood literacy specifically geared for public libraries. And that would have been done kind of in a sideline by including a member of the department either myself or youth services librarian in the council. We can be working more specifically thinking about that little one from a minute they start to read to lead in a public library world and off to their first elementary school teachers and prepaid different teachers. So I think having a little bit more a little bit of time to look at what's available and to really be able to articulate the benefits of the different programs to you all so that you can make informed decisions is to the good for all of us. Thank you. Do we need to kind of like enshrine that or enshrine something right but legislate that into like a formal study or do you think it'll be a natural fit on the literacy council? I'm guessing it's going to be a natural fit on the literacy council myself. I don't think for youthness they'll know but to me what I'm posing we might strike section six through twelve take a version of your language which would be assess sort of assess you could maybe help us with Smith's this which our ledge council but we'd love to know the highest needs out there. We're trying to find how do we get books in the hands of instants aren't getting the books right now is maybe the best way for me to say it and you know also what works and doesn't work in other words books arriving at the home I remember I used to get descriptions as a kid. I have the Disney books they were awesome I don't know if anybody else had them but to your point sometimes they just are on a kitchen counter yeah and so is there something is there a way for you all to consider not only how they arrive and who receives them but then what the process is from there centerways. Just want to thank you for your response I think it's very well thought through I think we saw this as an opportunity you know in a world of shrinking financial resources that maybe we can couple over the state program I understand what what you're saying but my question to you is how do you find out which communities need something like this and is there something we could direct somebody to look into as far as getting that because I'd like to see this not just go away and die I mean as far as enshrining it I think it's a good program if you need it sounds like we maybe don't need it well I think that there may be a need for something and I think that one of the things that's important is to rather than in a reactive way when we see that this isn't the it's not a love match for the program it doesn't exactly need our needs and and the mechanisms that don't really work that well with our state procurement guidance that we have I think that by putting some language in the bill about the the role of the literacy council and looking at programs of this type it's really a program out of peace right it's identifying that that this committee members of this committee are interested in learning more about these programs and getting a recommendation from the literacy council about them I do have to say the Idaho done just some quick research in the past few days and some colleagues from the Idaho State Library were in touch with us they have a series of programs and they have it's a lot of different grant opportunities for specific public libraries and it to me it matches a lot what I would dream of how does that relate to what the people in the literacy council know is effective once the kids are in school I think that there are some different ways that programmatically we could build that out some recommendations that the literacy council could make but I you know I have my my vantage point in libraries is we're trying to build those connections with the library because we know that leads to school success we're trying to model literacy behaviors with the parents so that the kids are supporting they're doing things like fighting and singing and that's all supporting the literacy of the child success in the end so really marrying the book giveaway program with the services that are more wrapped around a public library may be more effective but to your point senator about the expense and the ability to potentially leverage other funds then a program like reading is fundamental a federal program has been around since 1966 how does that work how can we learn about that could we potentially move in to that program connect with them and get some more resources for the state that way I think the idea is the literacy council will be well-positioned to evaluate these and some AOE staff and part of the library staff supporting them so and I think the you know federal federal programs come with special restrictions and considerations and we'd have to we'd have to provide with yeah you know final law groups that's true and I also know that our federal funds from the Institute of Museum and Library Services for the Department of Libraries make up about the federal budget and supplement pretty much everything we do and are really important so we don't want to look away from federal funding sources that are available to us just because there may be you know we want to investigate those what are the challenges how does it fit with our workflow and with our regular process but I do think that we need a little bit of time to consider and come up with recommendations so the council's going to come down here I think about three we'll ask about that strike those sections and then we'll work on some language that we will ask the literacy council to work on related to access to books wonderful thank you so much for taking yeah I was really sure of a testimony would you mind if you're leaving maybe before you go just send a little blur to let council to think about that might meet your needs and then I think I you're talking about 220 again we are not being able to sit over a guaranteed flight beautiful okay thank you thanks all right so that it's getting close to the finish the finish uh Mr. Nichols really important good afternoon everyone for the record Jay Nichols executive director of the law principle association uh submitted written testimony already copies out sending out 304 changes to career technical education first I want to thank many for taking up this important work I'm going to just look at my notes but kind of skin through them to let you ask any questions you might have ct members our vpa members almost an exception occasionally that might be one member this one cte interactive staff member but you to be able separately is when we also give out a cte award over here for the cte director of the year which is something of vpa financial sponsors so they're very important to us also as a superintendent I had a career center that's the coho career center and that's sent kids from the district that's cool so I thought a lot about needs to work with cts one of the things we're talking about here and senator campion and I thought looks for the offline prior to the testimony starting is that it looks like we want to work as a funding fire for the independent governance fire and I think that's okay I just want to mention that even the current funding realities just want to be real thoughtful about that and try to look at the whole picture of what we're spending education fund monies on and try to find ways to make it as comprehensive as possible so that we're similar to the conversation you just had about the reading program so you're making sure you're not duplicating and being redundant in areas yeah no thank you for that I think for me the agency is working on some financial stuff I saw that and we support that concept yeah I think details but we haven't seen it out you know we haven't seen the details conceptually though you know we talked about ed funding coming off the top and block grant type of model you know I fully support that yeah I can see the details but we want to get to a system where it's it's not seen as competitive between high school sending kids and schools which are sending kids to a career center and so are there reasons not to send a kid there and so you know one of the things I put in my testimony I think a great example of this is I can remember a situation where we had a young lady who wanted to be a nurse and she wanted to take medical medical careers but our guidance counselor told her she should really take the ap biology and she really won't take both and it could not happen now to be honest we did make it happen but not in schedule we actually the teacher was willing to do like a independent study with her for ap biology that was the goodness of his heart he wasn't getting paid any extra to do it gave extra time to help him to help this kid out but you know the distance and this was a kid who went to Emsford high school so for her the career center was across the street and we have kids around buses for 20 30 40 50 minutes going to a career center so it's not as easy as just trying to align bowel schedules and stuff like that additionally I I taught a little bit in here about you know disadvantages of small schools you can read about that we actually agree with the concepts around ninth and tenth graders and middle school students just want you to know that devil's in the details there too I talked to one ccp director who has over I think close to two dozen schools that sent to that career center and their comments were on the lines of well the kids came if we set that up was field trip for the sixth graders those graders and eighth graders each year my kids would miss so much school because they'd be interrupting all the time now I think the intent is to have them come once here in their middle school experience that's the case I think we should do everything we can try to make that occur and I think that's both the sending schools and receiving tech centers would be interested in that the other big thing is ninth and tenth graders you know just so you know the need is really out there you know we have some ninth and tenth graders walk in the high schools they would benefit so much from having a career center experience some of those kids they're trying to survive to get to 11th grade so they can be at a cpt center and are much more likely to be successful if you get them or they're earlier so they're trying to stick around for as long as they can and sort of the principles in their in their yeah especially the folks and teachers just trying to help them get through I was talking to a young man the other day who's in love to go this year who said they will almost go yeah I just hate a school so much I mean I was thinking about dropping out of school because I had to study they will it's in no relevance to my life what's the look and well you and I disagree with that well maybe you know maybe I'm a big mark 20th and myself that's enough sure um so anyway just those thoughts I did mention on sections four and five the AOE has said that the Obna Black Pollock and Associates report was unrealistic in timeline or policy that you know that AD report I think that we should be careful about that make sure the AOE has time to look for the model policy if we're going to go that route and that the school's have time to implement it many of our school boards take July off that's just the reality yeah and typically every place I go to superintendent there were two full public warnings to discuss new policy and we've come to the situation now a lot in our model where boards might only be once a month especially in like August so you can have August meeting and now school starts you've only had one chance to really talk about whether or not I can pass that policy and then if you want a certain number right now are you speaking to I'm speaking to sections section I'm jumping around to make it quicker section four and five okay so Jay if you don't mind so what are the ones that you would really want us to focus on in the next few days a couple of weeks or you know we can have editing this up and getting it going knowing that the house we work on it I'm just a flexibility on the policy deadline okay I would not I would follow the lead of the agency of education yeah and just reasonable is that in here somewhere it says I think August and September or call for right no in your testimony yes yes you point me to that just so yes it's uh section four and five great okay great and in section six the only thing I wanted to say there was that we fully support that any state construction aid program should include the CTE centers yeah anything if I had my way we would build you know 15 or 20 brand new centers that were really state of the art I mentioned the testify mentioning moving back to the commissioner of education in the CTO oversight but regardless of that that happens or not I think moving it to the secretary commissioner makes sense our state board doesn't have the resources the legal support any of those things you know really should be an obligation of the department or the agency of education so which section is that that is section seven three okay I think we're with that section eight is is similar great section nine we fully support our articulation agreements I did mention in there that earning college credits and training certifications while in high school has been demonstrated to increase success of economic outcomes for students throughout their lives so if anything I'd like to see a summary is to increase that and then my last little tip it is we need a statewide school calendar yeah we just do uh I talked to tech center directors to say some kids miss the many of 20 days because of something happening at the home school now it might be a different calendar it might be a field trip that so I have won a field trip with my physics class so I got to miss forestry because because field trip's gone all day and I just I do think if we could come up with a common calendar across the state nobody wants to do it I'll find a quick little story we're sitting in as trustees and that curse to the front of mine and I were pushing a statewide calendar with the trustees and Mary Moran so we're down right on the top great respect for I mentioned me when I was a young superintendent very good and she said Jay we all agree you're absolutely right as long as it's a rubble calendar and that ended the whole power session so I as well she was fine as long as the roughly counting as long as it was around the county we're all going to use and I think that's the sum that's out there I'd love to see you get four or five people in enrollment say make a calendar and then somebody had the curse adopted and if it's a good calendar that's research based to support student learning two or three years people aren't going to just be used to just you know over that they come so and those of you that know me know I'm going to take all the arrows the last time we tried this the ballooning public meetings it was really interesting yeah genie comes myself in late picnic so I do not want to be the face of that but I think if you're going to really have a strong system yeah have a center camp you'll be the face of that right great idea senator bullet nice support that fully out to the dpn uh something to any questions that's the main highlight senator okay um so I will so we will look at those sections fourth from nine those are your priorities yes if you can then on the house send me a text and I'll yeah respond immediately yeah okay okay that sounds great but I appreciate you guys look out this is yeah really important yeah a lot of kids no no no I just was going like this because I saw senator weeks is here oh yeah I wasn't expecting him okay so same way now I've got something about my mistake okay well uh statewide calendar uh cte and no traditional calendar uh two separate calendars one no I no I I think we just were we're brainlocked because we've got the school year he's got to go all year long oh yeah and then they blow into the workforce yeah and you know that's a bridge to firing or well it's hard because when you're in a when you're in the system it's like you folks for the system here it's hard to think outside the system I'm on the white square today you gotta you gotta go say how would we design this if we could completely blow it up and and take a look at we looked at a calendar that was eight weeks of school two weeks of like a break for teachers except those that wanted to work in one one week of that was to call back any kids that need extra support and the week was vacation and July was going to be summer vacation and that was going to be essentially going to be the calendar and places at Denver did it for their schools a lot of places have done it and I've seen lots of success and lots of support for our parents and teachers our all nobody wants to do it for until the second third year then everybody's like oh this is much more humane as kids are learning anyway sorry I did like calendar by the way when you guys were close to it now I'm remembering I thought it was great and when I talked in Germany he had a lot of love in the summer and we had two or three weeks at Christmas couple weeks in the spring so you have these really great and as a teacher you know you could feel the the human yeah the break was essential to just you know feeling healthy and well balanced and for the kids and and I mean it's better for the kids it just is better for the kids we know that reading scores and reading abilities go down in the summer we talked about 0.23 deviation of lost learning yeah on average over the summer and we know that the deviation is much higher for kids that are in poverty or in historically marginalized populations yeah because they're not going to museums during the summer they're not getting lots of offers please that's true sorry all right what I just I just think we're mindlocked into the traditional method of school risk you know why that school year started right what's that you know why that school year started right no it's not because in agriculture that's the common refrain that kind of helped it continue it really started because a lot of wealthy people in the cities thought it was too hot in the city they have a kids go to school they were on vacations so the schools closed during vacations and then later on became an agriculture everybody said well it's because of crop system I was born on the farm that had nothing to do with crops so that was an answer that was kind of how it all developed it really had a lot to do with places like Boston New York cities that being too hot and the families the families with means wanting to you know keep on in places like that that vacation that's a big argument now it's summer camp yeah get to go to summer camp now that's good yeah and working yeah also true to the point I mean I'm curious how many kids would be less interested in CTE if they found out they weren't gonna have a summer vacation they went to CTE I wanted to be all kids not just CTE kids not just CTE you still have a summer break it's just that it's four weeks instead of what we have now seven or eight maybe remind me I'll go up go along we'll see you in just a second anything else for me thank you all very much appreciate your work on this really just Mr Anderson uh my name is Jax it's uh I don't want to close them off but how long did we have right we just don't need to do that right but how for one hour use check to see how it was available yeah I just we can't uh use since we can move the library guys okay hello uh for the record Jeff Hennett from on the 8th and I will start and where you all ended on school calendar because that is a tough subject I'm well aware it was around when it was discussed more than a decade ago I will tell you that some teachers are thrilled with the calendar idea and others were not and it was one of the few times I've seen teachers um gnashing of teeth crying and all the above on an issue so I wish you I understand it's entrenched in the thinking I understand that but it's it is entrenched in that thinking so I wish you luck and I understand Senator Camping will take the lead on absolutely uh and so I support it if you know I remember coming up about 12 13 years ago so it hasn't really surfaced much again no that's right um and it's it's a difficult conversation yeah so uh it's all right excuse me I see we're so happy you're here yeah I'll think well if you're almost close on their meetings sure please so anyway so I uh I wish you well on the school calendar and there is a bossy field being discussed today or uh right down the house education committee yes that's what I think maybe if that may also provide you an option and have discussions about the school calendar it's similar to the cdv issue and maybe maybe this year is the year I don't know but that may be another vehicle to get out of the entrenched thinking that's that's whether there's a librarian or vacation I don't know and before you start I just wanted to start interesting how long do we have you for you've been and just started how long can you I can come back in 10 minutes and you can have me for five or 10 if that works okay can you be that great jeff yes absolutely great five minutes well it depends on yes so anyway so as a general matter in introduction we certainly support cte's with their valuable components of the education system for many students who really uh as j pointed out want and need that cte to keep them engaged in school and it's a really vital piece of the education system for for folks so that we do support um and it's uh it's critically important and necessary for the school system so we definitely support it j mentioned the changing the funding system and I think there's a lot being changed right now and that does give me a pause and concern that we're changing too much too fast and you know scientists you want to change one lever and then examine the results and then change another leader lever and examine those results here we're changing a lot right now I think this might be a bit too much to say that but but you are talking about funding we and it is a big conversation in the building obviously and should be um and so that is um of critical importance to you all and to us uh and I'll also say that uh not directly related to cte's but it does it is reminiscent of there's a section for at h 483 that talked about this I think on your wall from the house from last session that talked about um making sure that public schools excuse me the public system is not charged more to send a child to a private school uh than what is the announced tuition for the private school so that was in the context of 483 it was it was done um the two places so the one where it was schooled out of state but either way that the concept is we don't want private charging the education fund a greater amount than what they're charging their private pay parents and that is happening and so I think in the context of funding here um while we talk about cte I don't know that it's happening here at cte I don't think cte's I don't think that it is but it did remind me of that policy decision that you you have before you we could I think certainly all agree that we ought not to be charging the public uh the education fund more than what private paid parents are what are you working off of just do you have can you give us testimony I just want to make sure I have a handle that I do not have a written testimony okay um and I'm happy to give you something afterwards if you'd like yeah just something would be great because we are getting close to marking this up and moving this okay and you know the sections that Jay focused on will really sections fourth through nine recognizing that the house is going to get them and so I'd say given that we've had you know eight days before crossover whatever you really want us to dig into you know so on the policy front on on um rulemaking excuse me on the on the policy of the schools I think uh Chattanooga Suzy Glowsky School Board Association uh they got a lot of support here already I don't really need it you certainly should hear from BSBA okay again you're not looking at Jay's you're just talking about I'm talking about my notes I don't know what Jay okay I have not read Jay's I promise you yeah Jay you know Jay seems to be very full right so I think you should hear from BSBA about the policy uh environments okay um I certainly the CTE's uh reporting this no longer to the Secretary of Ed versus the State Board of Education uh in concept yes I agree with it uh what we do think is important is that uh we go back to a commissioner of education got the discussion um and then give that commissioner and the AAE resources and with which to rule bank this in this area so I know we have like eight days I see right so I just I really want to speak realistic here we're not talking about reworking with the agency right now we're just talking about fair enough I'm not great fair enough uh as for state aid uh it was on the school construction task force I know we did talk about CTE's yeah I haven't really looked at that that report but certainly CTE's are deserving uh of public funds when they're serving the public good so I think that we agree in concept that that ought to be looked at you know again house education is looking deeply into the school construction this may be a better piece for that so I don't know if you want to keep it in there they're taking up a more comprehensive approach to school construction at large and it is such a go over there um with that I'll stop that I mean I did already talk about school calendar and uh started that and I hope that you can type those up and get them to STA that would be later I think we're going to move forward and move it on Friday okay and as for the the agency of education is based on uh block grant I too look forward to seeing everybody doesn't know yeah I don't know when that's going to be tomorrow okay I think that's really important as a general matter I'm certainly a little bit down giving CTE's block grant and things can change year to year uh and that might negatively affect students about what services you can provide them if you're giving them a sort of a year old block grant and things are changing so that's a concern I mean should see what they have to say okay thank you thank you that's what's section is a block grant uh it's not a section they're going to bring in they're going to introduce lags I guess okay without a block grant all right I'm very confused because I thought that Secretary Bush at one point said let's focus on policy now and let's do finance like corrects later I'm just looking at her testimony where she says uh suggest a change language yeah she seems to want to do it but that'll be left to us we'll see what they say tomorrow in terms of their testimony and whether or not it's too complicated for us to jump in right now or or what we just need to move something to hear and what yeah I don't understand what you're going to say yeah the only bills we're getting from the house at least in conversation with uh a couple of the reps from that committee yesterday school construction miscellaneous ed and there was one more both seats down that's right I think they're trying to move job this week yeah both these yeah that's yeah I think some construction they wait a way to get a break and to be here please uh if you're willing uh the comment of the comment about private schools charging more of the tuition students can you in your written testimony not here in the survey can you can you back that up with short of this school this I understand my district okay yes yeah thank you all the greater all we'll have some good best great thank you you can send it to morning out be good you can grab would you let mr. Tucker in as you depart I will do so maybe you'll have to I mean I've been kicked out it's a little to door I knew he was on his way I knew he was on his way thank you yeah thank you Jen we're going to keep that open should be out in the hall it's not we'll find them uh these were our decision points for 220 the library you know why don't we take a look at them if you didn't have a chance to look at the moment with me again um keeping in mind that uh dangerous weapons firearms public libraries were been yanked and that will go to house if you just yet or don't work on that issue if I put them take it up leaves us with confidentiality salt and position governance brought an authority uh your appropriations yeah oh yeah so does that you know that tomorrow but I'd like you to decide you know at least war with these when Tucker comes in see what we've done yes odd and associated after senior oh so we are so we're playing from time to time you should be talking about those say I'm the way you see on this way uh I'll I'll think why don't you take us off so we don't yeah welcome back to senator kitchen strampson 1.1 is the same minus the firearm regulation pieces I believe that the firearm pieces are still in one still in one it was from last week before you had your conversation with uh Eric that's Patrick right so I'm going to hold off we're going to work right from our decision points and see what direction we can give you let's do the least controversial or some of the least controversial first so we've pulled number three of course center weeks have you had a chance to talk the two of you work together on diversity language to include religion and political identity we have not really okay so maybe since we got to move you guys could do that we can look at it tomorrow back at the top library okay number two library consultant positions one at AOE two at the department of libraries the working group only recommended restoring the one healthy position at AOE we further testimony and we have Catherine here is still nailed the bill asks for one person at the agency of education to work on library issues and two at the department of libraries say something about that would you um well I uh Catherine down now at state library I did not draft the bill so I think that my understanding of the bill as it was drafted is that with some of the additional work that was officially proposed that the the drafter of the drafters of the bill thought that there would be any propositions in the department with the changes the way that the bill stands right now we've integrated a lot of that work into our regular activities not going rule making for example but doing some general guidelines so again the department's position the whole time has spent that we did not ask for these two positions in our department and while my colleague from AOE left the room I don't believe that AOE asked for that position and I don't know that AOE was weighed in on me yes I think the AOE position really came from the BSLI Vermont School Libraries Association and the school librarians across the state really really want that position maybe what do we think circular do you recall anything else related to their youth in that position anything else other than what you mean why they feel yeah I think I think I mentioned last week that a lot of school librarians are living in sort of a little very isolated bubble because they're the only one in the school sometimes they're the only half time one in the school and they just don't you know there's no one for them to collaborate with no one for them to get information from and when they don't have someone when they don't have a point person in the AOE they feel very sort of isolated on the loan and luckily there is the Vermont School Libraries Association which is helpful but still that's just a group of librarians that's not necessarily a body that has any kind of authority or anything so I think that's where that's going to be from and we could always put it in recognizing that anything could happen down the hall but reality is down the hall is going to ask best we believe this is your top priority for the agency of education we're adding a full-time person to literacy would our next decision be to add a full-time person to libraries or would we use it for enforcement issues would we use it for other sort of on the ground folks to go into schools one of the things I talked to a couple of reps about yesterday could we ever get to the point where there's an AOE person every county you know could we you know so schools so people really have somebody like fish in wildlife have people fall over the speed it's an on the ground job in some way I don't know if this is where my top priority would be personally that's saying it's not a good idea but I just drink a lot of need in schools yeah I recognize that if I can get those for us in a few years comment and I know it's different organizations why couldn't a school library and be working with the department's library as far as like a you know reach out to us I right now the department of libraries has one youth services consultant and their work encompasses some support for school libraries but also all of the support for youth librarians at all of the public libraries throughout the state the needs that were articulated and by the working group members were more around curricular support which is really outside the scope of what the department's usually been providing them with and we we have supported them to a degree but it's my sense from what we heard in testimony when the this little folks were present at the very beginning of the session was that they would like additional support and within the agency itself there is some communication between the department and the agency but the specific needs of school librarians in Vermont I can speak to a lot less well than I can speak to the public librarians needs for example our department has been very focused on public library support for statute and you can see in statute we're not really as focused towards school libraries you know my only other comment is would be that if there was a way to sort of combine an AOE library position with literacy and I don't know what that would look like but it seems like literacy is a priority we are hoping to add that position to the permanent position to the AOE around literacy but if this person could I don't know manage I don't I can't get to sort of think about what that would look like but it seems like it would be um really beneficial to have more literacy focus but you don't have about the position you're talking in addition to the position we already have in there right yeah so like this AOE library position should also have a focus on but well even the other literacy position right you know in my former profession it used to be uh they're saying that you know safety is everybody's business but when everybody's looking at it nobody in particular is so to have somebody dedicated to the connection between libraries and literacy I think this it would be worth the money it would be a pretty heavy lift for one person but you know the idea of one in each county would be ideal just a little bit of a change well for that I was thinking more of I don't think I could be wrong AOE people get into schools like they should but we know when there is a river overflowing or there's a release of chemicals official everybody's there and usually a lot of times these are local people right so if the agency did have people that were in every county that were on the ground hey I'm struggling with x y and z just to see what's going on we all saw the news about test scores again coming out how can we get a sense of and it's sort of be there to help people you know that you do not have to travel with them because they just don't think it happens as much what do you want to understand? I think I do like the sounds of having this sort of emerge between the person who's doing literacy and libraries but there's also the point that it could be a heavy lift for one single person so I mean I get some curious as to how much or how heavy would that be and whether it's feasible or if it's you know if it would just be challenging but doable and it's also to your point earlier on regarding different positions that we're going to be asking for your points will take you out the other positions as well you keep it out for now the positions out and then if anybody wants to make a big case for them to go in happy to do amendments you know as a committee they come in and say all right here's some orphan language I definitely want this person again have something but for now just to move on because I know you've got other stuff going on uh so library record confidentiality lowering the age from 60 to 12 who else do people want to hear from on this I think the majority might be okay with this but I people still want to hear from other people on this I don't want to shut off debate say ah this is oh right right but I want to make sure you've heard from the people that you might want to hear from on this or not perfect okay so I can go okay is there anything you want to hear from that would make the case to keep it 16 well okay if you think of any one okay so we'll do it for now and then we'll have a little more testimony so then of course three dangerous weapons library governance whether to include some language flaws that would clarify the level of funding that you discussed I think this made sense can you bring us back to this sure so to bring you back to that section of the bill the underlying requirement law just states that in municipality annually shall appropriate bonds for the maintenance increase and care but there was no qualifier around what that appropriation had to be so in the bill is introduced there was a standard set that was three words insufficient amounts yeah and in draft 1.1 of the committee's amendment that has been taken out and converted to the underlying law which just requires an appropriation for the care maintenance and increase that's the underlying law that is current law yes if we could determine what's sufficient what does that yeah right okay now the preceding subsection before that which concerns the actual establishment of a public library by municipality requires appropriations necessary for the construction and maintenance of the library so that was one of the things that I pointed out is that we have the necessary standard of preceding subsection but it's not being for the ongoing appropriations okay sounds like we're in a good spot with that we won't go back to the bill to wrap okay and then appropriations without the positions it's a matter of whether there should be an appropriation for any duties that to be part of libraries as under the bill's terms the primary the bulk of the appropriation was for the positions and if there was 275,000 dollars to the Department of Support for Programs and Services established by the effect so we're pretending 275,000 for programs and services many many of those particularly where the the sections hold out may not be as well with the 278 starting to the next week 785 included those three positions the 275,000 was standalone there was 225,000 to the Department of Positions and then 112,500 to the Agency of Education and then that subdivisions on section 14 was just to support programs and services required by the act sorry I know you said that twice um I would look what I don't know what can you guys piece out or sell what programs would be 275,000 dollars you still now can you weigh in on the Senate? Okay can you? Please no still no sorry um I can weigh in just to say that the department didn't request this that you're comfortable with the budget that we proposed that's in the governor's budget I did have one area that I had spoken to about that I'm wondering if you could consider which was removing an existing piece of statute that is in in statute now I think it's in section 606 it says that the department is shall be the primary access point for state information and we are not that and I'm wondering if we're touching statute right now could we remove that that kind of old line from maybe 30 years ago? Can we feed it please? The department shall be the primary access point for state information it's part of our other duties and functions of the department which I think is section 606 of chapter 22 it's the last how would this change what does this it wouldn't change our work but it would not say that we're doing work we're not doing that makes any sense the way that this reads our understanding is that anything that's on the website for the entire state of Vermont people would look at this and logically think we have edited we have organized it no one has come to us for help with their information architecture or the content of the fish and wildlife nobody's coming to us for state information in this way and also with the advent of people calling 2-1-1 we're not the primary point of information for telephone calls email calls to the state of Vermont for the online information so I'm happy to still provide advice and counsel the second half of that sentence about internet state information policy well this wasn't in the bill but I had asked you about it during my earlier testimony if we could if we could add removing repealing that part from statute go ahead we're going to say something it's it's basically just a cleanup because we haven't done this work in our weeks many years so I apologize I'm still on the highway with 75 miles now did you say to remove that language from current statute okay gotcha yes to align with our actual work and to ensure that people don't think the department has bedded all of the information that's on the state's website so add language to this bill that would remove language from statute gotcha yes all right can I ask that when you go back to the appropriations or a question so and correct me if I'm wrong with my understanding but so on page 10 that section one and two for the 275 and 225 those are not in the recommended budget is that right okay and but the 112 is in the right none of the appropriations listed in this draft of the bill are in the governor's recommended order to my knowledge and so okay why do I clarify thank you and Donald person can't speak to why this finger was chosen can't tell you why it was put in here which is that the work working group had originally recommended a series of new programs that the department might initiate at the discretionary level including things like increasing libraries and department fractions facilities and things like that many of them are not in the bill so this was a placeholder so speak in case those decisions were made down to the next draft we've got to make sure we're on the same page library confidentiality number one it will be lowered in the next draft library consultant physicians are now out dangerous weapons we know is they're out library governance we're returning to the original statue department authority is senator weeks and bring language tomorrow and then the appropriations I mean I guess maybe take them out and we'll add them when we assess what the needs are okay look at it yeah please just coming back to the library governance it's already in statute why repeated but we're not going to when I was feeling right yeah we're speaking yeah yes and then draft 1.1 that clause in the bill is introduced it's already been looked there are technical corrections in those sections the original bill has some different language yeah and we're just returning to that there will still be a paragraph in the bill yes regarding governance and what does it say different from what the statute already says in addition to some technical corrections there are informing amendments around things like the authority over the library director to make sure okay all here I thought I saw you happy to connect I thought it's appropriations specifically this is actually look good I think I may be we or you know what the we position in and let folks make a decision I I love the way senator Williams described it as a someone who would connect literacy to libraries I just think that's that was such a good way of putting it elegant solution they just don't want them to make the decision I want us to make the decision this is you know the policy I want us to either say this is the biggest priority for us or not I just don't want to send it down there and be normal you know what I mean so given the other possibilities as long as this committee believes that a 50-50 position is more important than any other positions in AOE I just don't want to send it down to be like well we didn't really know what we're gonna give to you you know what I mean yeah please are we going to be having a list of appropriations or quests that we've been sending down and then yeah through a prioritization yeah oh okay yeah so I just don't want us to be okay I mean for me again I would rather have somebody who just works on that or you know yeah but then again of course sort of also just grasping you know just right right if this is the need if this is a half literacy half sporting school boats I just I think you and I talked before on many occasions doing sort of like an audit of the AOE it's so hard for me to even find out begin to think about what positions we would add or take away but mostly add without knowing exactly who's there doing what and I have looked on their page many times they have like this they have a like that looks like a family tree almost of who's doing what but it's still is a picture yeah it's like yeah but it's it doesn't really help me understand exactly who's doing what yeah and so to your point I love the idea of having people locally but what would that look like is that something that we're not going to do that this year yeah so it's a it's a responsibility if we if we put in a priority for number one we put in the next draft that should be directed that some somebody's going to be responsible and and specifically what their job is it's like a position description you know if we put it in an AOE says well actually what we really need is this that could also give us some information you might if we just think about it for now the next draft we won't have it in we'll get the appropriations for now and then the next draft we'll have some of these conversations again fantastic I think that's what I need thank you all very much for your real later like uh much later in the afternoon yes and I'm available yesterday night tomorrow follow-up by email once you know time is this afternoon tomorrow okay through thank you all thanks a billion so you'll just send us a user an app statue we'll go through it with you we'll find some time great Tucker not Tucker you're you yeah we're gonna take 15 minutes welcome back to senate education hey miss Myers thanks so much for joining us you know we're trying to move some bills and we have not heard yet from all of you I do see some testimony in our files we just need to understand your thoughts on 304 so please go for it great thank you for having me for the record Chelsea Myers Associate Executive Director at the Vermont Superintendent's Association thank you for inviting testimony on career and technical education in response to the study on the funding and governance of career technical education in Vermont otherwise known as the APA report and its anticipated legislative consideration VSA held two stakeholder feedback meetings in late 2023 the group consisted of 11 superintendents including three technical center superintendent directors and representatives from the VPA and the VSBA several core themes emerged from the first meeting including many recommendations outlined in the APA report relate more generally to topics in pre-k through 12 education and should not be discussed in isolation from the overall delivery system number two coordination and collaboration between entities to ensure equity quality and efficiency is essential this includes with the higher education system number three there is a need for a system that does not create tension or competition between schools and instead focuses on flexibility and accessibility number four expansion requires additional attention to all of the barriers discussed throughout the APA report including but not limited to facilities transportation and financial and human resources and number five as a lever of economic growth in Vermont any changes to career and technical education should be grounded in a clear vision both statewide and in local communities so for the sections one and two on funding developing a non-competitive funding mechanism for CTE was a shared value expressed at the feedback feedback session from all parties the essay will await forthcoming information from the agency of education on their proposed block funding and transition mechanism given the significant pressures on the education fund the details of any shifts in the funding structure will be tremendously important they should be thoughtfully discussed and considered within the full context of the education delivery system any changes in funding should not leave school districts or CTE centers with fewer resources within changes to the funding mechanism there needs to be an acknowledgement that the sending leas do still provide services for students who attend CTE programs in section three expanded access as you learned from back Ted and their testimony on February 23rd requiring an annual visit for all grades six through eight students would be immensely challenging to coordinate and implement while career exploration and earlier grades is important there should be flexibility in how this can be accomplished in school districts and CTE centers with recognition of current capacity limitations and workforce shortages adding opportunities to the middle grade should not detract from the day-to-day CTE program offered to secondary students in regards to providing genuine opportunities for students in grades nine and ten it is unclear what genuine means in this context especially within the context of reported wait lists for programs staff shortages and facility limitations in section four and five it talks about a comprehensive career development policy VSA recommends hearing testimony from VSBA as it relates to school board policy the bill's current draft does not clearly delineate the model policy and the implementation plan procedures are also mentioned further in the section all different types of documents that guide school districts or frameworks the model policy and implementation plan should be clearly articulated and align with the role of school board policy compared to the other guiding documents mentioned within the bill school construction aid VSVSA definitely agrees with this section within the context of the overall concerns about school construction aid for the public education system section seven oversight VSA did not discuss this recommendation in its feedback sessions with that said whichever entity is responsible for oversight should have the capacity to do so effectively and towards a shared vision of an effective public school delivery system I believe in committee you talked a little bit about kind of the political implications of oversight in either group any oversight should be met with a commensurate level of support for the field from the AOE VSA recognizes the need for an update to the rules regardless of the body undertaking an update to the rules the process should include substantial collaboration with the field post-secondary program alignment superintendents in the feedback session recognize a need for better alignment between CTE centers and higher education institutions to the greatest extent possible there were some reports that students pursue opportunities in other states instead of repeating coursework required by Vermont's post-secondary institutions a seamless secondary to post-secondary to career pathway is critical for Vermont's economic future Vermont must do what it can to both attract and retain a skilled workforce thank you yeah senator do it hey Chelsea thanks for that testimony I was curious about section three which I think we've heard now multiple times that it's a little maybe a little bit problematic but what do you recommend there in terms of the career exploration for middle school kids for six to eight do you guys have like proposed language or a suggestion on how we should handle it I think we would lean on what Vacteds recommendation would be at this time which is to if any language is included to have it as flexible as possible and I also do wonder if there's a policy if you do move forward with the the kind of the policy framework if that could be addressed like in the implementation plan again like I was a little bit confused with it mentions a policy a school board policy as well as an implementation plan and so if there is indeed both a school board policy and an implementation plan if the kind of expansion into the middle grades could be a part of that implementation plan I was a little confused with that section though so I'm not sure if that would be a proper vehicle okay yeah that section three again I agree that challenging to coordinate implement all those visits um might be something section three the house could work on for us we wanted to we wanted to pull it I think your point is well taken genuine opportunities kind of a strange word big enough to yeah pause yeah I think too with the core principle that we discussed that was in agreement with all of the superintendents that were on our feedback sessions is that a non-competitive funding mechanism might help to address some of the access concerns as well it's a big undertaking to shift that funding mechanism but it was a shared value amongst the participants both CTE directors superintendents and superintendents in more traditional leas section three section three I think we might end up striking um and actually I wonder if uh there's another big change that they suggested oh I'll see if I know Susie Glowski I think Kara Zimmerman works for Susie Glowski she's coming in on something so maybe we could ask Kara Zimmerman she's also just testified on 304 and Chelsea what I'm going to probably end up at because there are so many moving parts would you be willing with uh your association be willing to work with the agency of education just see if we can all get to a uh good spot where AOE's in agreement with all of you school board association I know you're just talking I'm just asking you to speak on behalf of the superintendents but it's getting to the point where uh it would be helpful if all of you had a conversation with AOE or some kind of meeting and so where there might be some common ground in a bill that we could push out and I know part of it's going to end down what agency of education says tomorrow around financing yeah you're talking to about the whole bill not the whole segment um yes we are open to collaboration I can't speak to the other parties but we'd be happy to connect great great thank you any questions for uh miss Myers so I think what uh leach house is going to come down anybody can we're going to have a quick conversation with her about a couple of other bills and now probably just stick around anybody who wants to stick around and go through this bill with her happy to have you but I'm just trying to tee up a few of our final pieces of work before the end of the week yeah are we going to decide about the oversight piece in section seven because we've been getting sort of similar testimony to what Chelsea gave us which is it doesn't matter if it's the state board or the AOE but as long as they update the rules how do we make that decision yeah I mean for me this is a section that I'm thinking of this is the one that moves away from the state board and gives it to the AOE yeah it seems to me to make sense to take it away from the state board um even capacity issues as uh have above start stop at the agency of education what do you think you can center do it in terms of uh coming a little bit more about your concerns or questions no I I mean I'm fine with that it just never been hearing from the secretary no one's been really like correct in saying like this is what we should do that's why I was wondering how we could update the decision but I'm fine with that it's the secretary thinks that that's what should happen and that they feel comfortable to be able to pass the event one more well back to capacity you know what again are we going to do with that extra you know if we're going to be making recommendations for positions um this is a capacity issue checking on following up on a number of things that we have asked them to do over the past 10 years uh some kind of person that you know could be needed more in this role than maybe live with us we'll see no it's not a highlight that probably we've got the state board coming in to testify I think that could refuse why yeah yeah yeah so my question is yeah who they have the responsibility now right state board this is yeah they were the state board has it right now are they doing anything well one of the things we heard was that the career technical centers have been waiting on rules that they were going to generate for two decades so that's not good it's not good yeah and I'm not sure you know listen one 20 I lost I got there but for a month and a half 20 years I mean I don't know that is just I think it would be helpful to be testimony bottom line up front we support this yeah with the exception of yeah and we don't hear that so right we're asking for people to help us yeah policy and yeah so we're not we haven't heard the bottom line up front yeah maybe we can ask the secretary who isn't the AOE specific to tax centers like how many how many actual employees or well remember this does ask for full transition they have more they do yes but that was the governor's budget that's the governor's recommended correct but to add so perhaps that's who might do that work yeah okay I think the same James is going to add that position into this I feel I thought about the policy support five she goes so I think so that goes back to the conversation I think we were just having correct uh I would fish more three section three four and five all model comprehensive yeah we're going to see her from then tomorrow that's anything else from you this Myers I think what this I think what it's going to warrant in the end possibly maybe a conversation between after we hear what the AOE puts forward tomorrow recommendations around financing I might ask that all of you have a conversation in the cafeteria about how best to um work through any difficulties or disagreements and get us to a point where we can move this over to the house yes I'd be happy to and um I Kara is off today but I can try to connect with her in the morning and see if we can come up with some language that maybe clears up that kind of the distinction between the policy implementation and also procedures are mentioned in that section so it does read a little confusing so if it it's the will of the committee I'd be happy to try to flush out some language that might make it clearer that would be that would be a huge help and is the secretary in tomorrow she herself coming in for this I think so those are the meeting tomorrow and then sharing it with us she's not okay right yeah so Meg so I guess Beth will come in we'll have Beth come in and take us through their recommendations would you email the secretary and ask her um actually you and I talked about this after we're done thank you I mean we still have a little ways to go on this but having your recommendations are helpful and while we have you just so you know we're getting close to voting both of our literacy bills uh library if there's anything else that's important to you on those you could let us know and I know we're going to likely move uh Senator Williams technology bill um and Senator Hushim's new American grant bill so anything like that that you could just sort of take a look at those are all nearing uh completion sure thank you for having me great thank you okay why don't we go off and wait for Beth welcome back to senate education uh the same James he met with uh uh the state librarian and I think what we would like to do is strike the imagination library and what athron uh Delnaio suggested we do is we first night we get sounds like a good idea assess the situation out there and so what we'd like her to do uh we don't have such a literacy council to do and this is something Catherine said she particularly would take a lead on excuse me it's help us understand um are there areas in the state where children are highly economically to go that might not be getting the books that they should be receiving that we want them to receive in their homes overarching bull is you know books that they can have they can hold on to they can read at night and whether or not there should be also ensure look into this or ask of her as she's agreeing to is sort of what what policy would work well around them in other words the books just arrive and they sit at you know on the counter and they never get looked at or Catherine said she would look into see kind of more implementing a program around that so we would strike the imagination library all together no fun we would start by asking help us identify we've got a real problem out there so report back to our foundations okay so then after that I think 303 is looking pretty tidy buff and we'll talk to you more later in this week about it and then we've got senator gulitz 204 looking forward to bringing those together maybe by friday and saying okay we've got a literacy bill and um we'll attach 303 to 204 and I think we'll be in shape senator gulitz we'll report that on the floor right and then senator sheen has his new americans bill which i can be drafted it did and i have where is that bill what's going on with it um the last draft i don't recall the last draft that we saw but i know we worked on it last week and i don't know if we sent you back with any recommendations so you better i think we'll take a look at it okay and you know we have it up for a vote but when we review it with you there's any other native language senator sheen and the rest of us will let you know and we'll do it on the floor academic work senator williams is going to do technology on the floor and we'll look at that bill again tomorrow i believe just go through it see where we are in terms of the vote should we're comfortable with it we're going to hear a little more testimony and then i'm happy to do libraries and miscellaneous education bill um which i'm sure will stuff with a lot of stuff when we get back just have to get through this week and senator weeks if he's willing we'll do the career technical bill once we finalize that and i've asked the agent the secretary of education to zoom in to this committee if she's available any kind of or at least have a conversation in my direction to her is going to be listen um so that's not how i'm going to start it but um would you please work with school boards superintendents of others share your information on financing get their feedback they've given us today come forward by friday with a proposal that we can get our heads around and maybe sleep on during the week when we're away and come back and take a little more testimony so we're not planning to move that bill this week right okay that's really helpful oh yeah you know there are a lot of moving parts with that absolutely yeah and that would give people over town meeting week to talk to folks first public additional witnesses that sort of thing okay i will have a new draft of 303 tomorrow the other thing just sergeant drift we did ask the university of vermont and the network network we have a conversation they started that conversation today around coming together h you will bring some language back hopefully by friday gives us a week to look at it think about it and then hopefully you can do that as well miscellaneous education bill we're going to look at trustees state board a couple of other things in there and i'd like to move that by a week friday so i have this question you bet okay will you give me further direction on when you want me to combine s 303 and s 204 yeah i think we just need to look at them both together by thursday does that work just take a vote on polls yes make a motion to step 303 to 204 okay so i'm waiting around further direction on that okay and then for the fifth millennium's bill 167 yeah do you want me to go ahead and add the trustees and the state board language to say if you're now or just keep it out i say we keep it out and we'll have work in language to think what it is well they're their own bills for now right so we can okay so i'm not collapsing anything yet you know when i have in 167 right now holocaust education destruction virtual learning virtual learning um a lot of emails yesterday area question has um it's got language from the agency on public bids beautiful it has the post-secondary school was chartered on vermont cleanup great it has the picking out the effective date of the one of the policies from the school safety the last year i can't remember which one that's right it is adding non-profit organizations that are running child care and adult care food programs to the list of eligible agencies for or like a better way to put a Kickstarter funding to get a food program going holocaust education the the data collection report virtual learning with some amendments and i emailed you about those so you want to know if you want to see those oh virtual running and home study program home study great have no home study language yet right or do you have i added it it's not been posted anywhere but i did send you the most recent draft so you have it great and home study you have some testimony coming up on that and then i'm going to have some language possibly dealing with one of the other issues we've talked about student staff part of hearing etc i just want to do a placeholder and then the other thing is i believe that house is sending us to school construction bill they are working on one okay and they have the pause for pcbs in that yes okay and then what else are they sending us uh miss rep tesha bus bus mention there's another bill yes a board of co-operative education services called the flow seats bill which allows supervisor unions to get together form a brand new entity um to provide shared services and i did i i don't know what tesha is there these on that she seems to be acting at it which is great we'll paper something at the end of the session if she's successful if you had trophy um she is mentioned that they're going to work out this during some miscellaneous people aren't right okay did i hear you say and i could have misheard it that the house has a bill with a pcb pause in it there is currently language in the house education committee bill that's not been voted out yet so um there can school construction school construct yeah right had a section towards the end that would pause pcb testing and i believe the language is doing that bill joining me with my colleague breath i believe that language is taken directly from a bill the funder wall the house bill the funder wall i don't remember the number 486 oh that's good to know because i didn't i well that's why i was afraid we just don't have time to hear from everybody if they're sending it to us no if they don't i don't think they will we can take 486 after crossover and have whatever we want to it and i think we might make that into another language anyhow there might be i think they're also working on another bill related to pcb is with michael brady but i can talk about but i don't i don't know the status of that bill i just know if he's been in that committee so i don't know that that language is leaving their committee if it's traveling in a standalone bill i don't know anything about it i just know that that's something that they've been working on well hopefully we haven't taken on too much but that's what we've got the other thing that i know people will come down and ask what about this what about that jenny's bill on cardiac arrest you know if we have some time if we attach that to son you know they're all sorts of little things that we can also get done during this if they're only sending us two bills well that's okay well three if you're if you're playing and i don't know about a standalone pcb right we're sending them 17 if you could have you know we'll construction and bosey's are big literacy literacy and ct's are huge i don't want to get there we'll buy a lot for you to go over after the bosey's seems huge yeah it's a lot to rack head around yeah it's new it's new so it's kind of new york new york does do that word of collaborative self-cooperative 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