 Thank you for that. I did ask Michelle and she's already told you that I'm you know famous on Twitter But I did do a interesting thing the topic that we have today three days ago I put it on a poll on Twitter So before we even you know come to the my esteemed panelists today I just want to share with you what the people on the Twitter had to say we got about 150 votes and some comments So if I can ask the e4m team to please Put up the poll here, please. Okay, great And you know we we didn't define it We just put it out like that which was specialist digital agency Integrated media agency who do you think you know will be successful in India and it was 5545 and we got about 145 votes my audience is largely you know marketing and digital folks so that was an interesting one And I think when I was speaking to the panelists here In the prep that we did the little that we did what was very interesting for me was that each one of you had a very different Definition for what you consider to be a specialist agency versus what you consider to be an integrated agency Down to asking the question that is integrated media agency even a reality You know or will it succeed? Should an integrated agency definition be different and you know what came home to me was that? I think I've spent too many years in sales and marketing 30 years ago when I started there used to be a concept of the integrated agency I don't know if Shashi is you know here just now, but Shashi hired me at FCB and The media was a department that we used to have at FCB Okay, and then you know the first the media agency split up happened and then you know once When I became the CMO I still remember you know at HSBC back in 2006 is when this whole concept of hiring Digital agencies you know came into four and I remember then in 2010 And I've had the pleasure of working with some of you as my you know as my agency three of you over here You know I've actually worked with you guys Hiring performance agency so it started becoming you know that specialist Back to the question that we are sitting here and asking Integrated media agency, which is a combination of let's say digital versus press or a combination of digital media versus digital You know creators I also cut some quotes from some of the audience that we had on Twitter And you will notice that I think it's a similar kind of a question that is getting raised over here You know their quotes are really only Indicative which is both are needed. So we got that with the 5545 you do what's right for the business You know CMOs responsibility to ensure all the agencies work together You know and specialist work in isolation one is fast one is slow So with that I'm going to throw open this debate first to establish What is really the definition of an integrated agency and I'm going to come to Prasad first I had I had mentioned to you that I'm going to get you to open So Prasad, what do you think integrated media agency definition very very interesting one and I'll be very you know I Mean when when this invitation came and that integrated when I heard about integrated I Just because we we as an agency started or we as a company started as a digital first one There's a DNA of digital one when it integrated for us. Okay traditional was not part of my thought process at all Okay, so then I started actually looking at what do you mean by that right and today very interestingly Sam also talk about How it is, you know unbending happen and now how bundling probably would be happening. So when I say integrated for me definitely It's it's it's more of the whole consumer journey Okay, because when when it was a traditional versus digital and when digital was not there, okay? There are whole in your IDA model Probably market years used to excite the person till desire and then the journey would start from the traditional stores, right? And then Kotler talk about five a model wearing from aware to ask to appeal to act to advocacy In the digital space the whole thing has to be thought in a way the first Rupi that you spend you really have to think through the consumers going to go through all those of course You know not like in a linear way, but probably like a football field where ball keeps coming here and there that way So for me integrated is about putting that consumer in but in in middle of the whole thing and instead of talking about share of voice share of experiences Okay, that is what integrated for me having said so talking about traditional versus digital Okay, I think that most of the other people here who probably had a traditional experience can talk about it much better than I do No, we actually have done my year who started out being a pure digital guy, you know And I remember working with him back then when we only would talk performance to him Only performance okay, not even digital experiences and today, of course, he leads an agency which has you know much larger services So then my over to you. How how has that journey happened actually? It's quite the opposite journey Yeah, I think so that's what everybody I think my team keeps saying that But you know When we started I think when we started it was more about Okay, client has a problem which no other agency can sort out with the digital performance and We started as entrepreneurs who could get in and solve that problem I had that type of talent fast and solve for that and that's how we started but as the time progressed what we understood is that depending on where the client is in a Evolution or how they're internally structured like a lot of organizations are structured very differently that defines how they need a solution for and If it is traditional business like CPG they think of marketing and digital marketing completely different from a new age clients absolutely and If a cell set defines the performance business versus some CMO defines what it is So as we get gone along in last 15 years what I've started understanding and that's my experience probably Which is pretty much different is that it does not and I completely agree with Prasad that it is not the media money that matters It's the experience that matters. Okay, and Agency who can probably bring in data technology and Overall understanding of how the framework works for client Daily what's better? Yeah, so I think what Prasad spoke about, you know putting the end customer at the center of it and you've spoken about very interestingly How our client is structured? What is the CMOs KPI sometimes the performance marketing KPIs are not with the CMO You know there with the CDO that also defines, you know on what kind of agency, you know therefore you're hiding and so Nali and I had a you know discussion about it because Ultimately an agency succeeds if you are married to the CMOs KPIs, you know that is that is critical That's when you will stay and continue to you know be and have that business right so Nali So your opinion on that So agree with you and I think what we spoke about a lot was in the space of driving outcomes The CMOs outcomes or a business outcomes are not classified by any one Specialization you have to drive an outcome and Therefore an agency that is responsible across the spectrum is in a position to look at it overall and I think as Accountability becomes the single most important thing that we are driving It's really important that Responsibility of driving that outcome is also centralised and again speaking as Well, I'm speaking on behalf of essence We are a typical key and we started off with depth We started off with specialization. So we were rooted in data tech in analytics But over time we become integrated as well because we realize that if you're only responsible for part of the outcomes You actually don't have the full picture and you can't really influence the That's my two cents on it. I completely agree with what's been said already So I think what's also interesting for me is I'm hearing you say data tech you know customer experience and Owning the client KPIs I'm gonna come to you last but I'm gonna ask Shantanu to speak first on this and Shantanu, how have you seen? Clients evolve. I know you were nodding your head and I know you've been my agency before You know, so how have you seen clients evolve over a period of time on this spectrum of? You know hiring specialist agency or hiring an integrated agency? so Without sounding very old because then it kind of rubs off across the panel but the way the wave I see it as something that evolved over the past 20 25 years Digital agencies were specialist agencies at one point in time and not just that within digital you'd have you remember search specialists Yes, we'd have social media specialist agencies and so on so forth And okay the plug interactive avenues has always been you know that it's not just a plug Built as an integrated one-stop shop for all things digital so with that way if I have to label a Clients need and look at what we do today Then we are a full-service integrated agency because like you said media were the other guys in the room There was time when print ruled and television people were the other guys in the room right and then the entire ad-ex shifted in favor of television so if you if you want to look at the Thing happening. So even in television today. There's more of connected TV and then of course a lot of Money going into digital and so on so forth. So what's main line anymore firstly? So digital and specialization from a specialist probably doesn't go together if that becomes if there's a client Who's dominant? Spend is going to be on the digital medium then that is main line for him So that's that's one big thing secondly clients Invariably in the past or even today. They don't look at labels. They have a requirement and They need to look at so specialist agencies to my mind would be all right if somebody is just narrow cast into doing only Ecom and a client has only Ecom as a requirement Then it works that way otherwise More or less it's communications planning good old school comms planning when you do that it starts with the messaging and I said that to you earlier the message and the medium can no longer be separated. So this What we are discussing today. I'd say not just An integrated agency from a media or paid media standpoint, but starting from the message itself. So Creative needs to roll in into that as well. That's that's what I'm saying I think Stanley was also hinting at that and I think Prasad was also hinting at that I think in the good old days when you had outdoor and print and television The creative could actually be separated out, you know The the media and the messaging used to run differently and there was a degree of specialization there I think the difference that digital has brought in is exactly that which is that you can no longer separate the message from the media and I think that's something that we all Probably will take home, you know with us today that when we are thinking of a You know media agency of the future Whether that animal according to me will exist or not. I think is a question that we need to ask ourselves in the context of you know digital Media agency, I say, you know With that I want to ask you in terms of your experience of you know Shantanu definitely mentioned saying that you know client is looking for you know X kind of experiences or X kind of experience that the agency has what has been your You know experience in the last five years, you know, not more not earlier on Have the clients preferences shifted in terms of what they're looking for has there been a lot of change? Because the CMO organizations and the org structures are changing for sure everywhere, you know Some banks have for example CMO CDO separate, you know, some banks have it integrated So have you seen their preferences change in terms of what they're expecting from the agencies? Yeah, so Firstly, I think what's wonderful is we are all seeing of the same page It's incredible and all of us are rooted in the consumer and the consumer journey right and and we're all saying that it's it's about understanding where the consumer is in his journey and Your own and the consumer actually gives us a lot of signals at every stage and which is why integration becomes really important because you know Consumer might give you signals at the time of purchase which which help you at a different Part of the cycle or or you know in the in the beginning We have we at wave maker use a momentum Which is about the consumer journey starting with priming which is about you know How primed is the consumer towards your brand? Then there's a trigger then there's an action and then this purchase right? So basically how the consumer is going around the circle at at each stage He's giving you data points and and you're using those data points to influence And also all of this is real-time and that's coming back to what you're saying right and we talk about DCO You can hardly You know have the luxury of having one person create your Communication and another person deliver it when it needs to be done instantaneously, right? So integration is therefore becoming very very important and Honestly, I think finally clients. Yes the roles in some cases are getting divided like e-commerce In in quite a few clients. He's looked upon as a sales function And not really a marketing function Data is is kind of a CIO Territory and not the CEO or the CMO territory. Yes, so at the client's end there are You know different people possibly in some cases different people having different KPIs on this But so do you guys now end up interacting with the CIO inside an organization? Therefore and the CIO team I think that's one difference then, you know, which never happened Exactly exactly and in some cases in e-commerce. We're even talking to the sales people. Yeah, the head of sales is someone who We are connected with so I think, you know specialization works in infancy When when something is is new like like happened with search like happened with social But the onus really is now on the Agencies like us and and you know, I think over the last five years you spoke about we've invested massively behind Different areas like like if you talk about content content creation Yes, I think more than a fifth of my agency content creators. Wow. You talk about performance You talk about e-commerce. These are areas that you know, we have really invested in and and today for a client Who really wants to maximize? Return of his investments from his customer I think we are Rightly placed to be able to do it. So as an integrated agency, I think because your ability to join the dots Bring together the data and and give a proper perspective of the consumer You are in a much better position to be able to deliver value Yeah, so Nali you wanted to say something when Ajay was talking. I was actually saying exactly I mean he he built on that But I think the whole has become greater than the sum of its parts and and I think coming together at every every intersection and what I was saying was the CMO CIO CGO Both officer and the strategy officer. They all play an equal role and Especially the kind of clients that we have been working deeply with that. It's very hard to separate What is the role that performance plays versus brand marketing? What is the role content, please? It's impossible to Consumer doesn't segregate their experiences of Brand in its goals does not segregate its experiences So therefore the agency has to come together and build both Specialization and integration under the same roof If they want to retain the business And be responsible for driving outcomes. Yeah, a few minutes back Sam had talked about Sam is here And I you know is he talked about how we shouldn't be using agency as a word But you know getting into more of a marketing consultancy now from the client perspective As a consultant, okay, what we are trying to solve is that? digital as a catalyst The problem needs to see it doesn't matter the CIO or see it's it's ultimately it's a board function or a CEO function, right? How do I use digital as a catalyst? Okay to to get that growth or get those business goals happening is something that we should so we as a consultant We should be solving that problem just instead of talking about different channels You know, it's very interesting that you refer to this and I'm not going to open the you know The revenues for the agencies and the margins for the agencies. That's a Pandora's box You know, and I think the marketeers perhaps need to have a real look at what they're getting from their agencies and look at it And I I'm on your side, you know on that one But having said that I think the thought where you're coming from is that look, you know digital Delivers top-line to organizations today, right? And I mean I lead that business for IBM for you know, India and for ASEAN and I often have meetings even down with the media agency to say not enough leads You know are coming in because my team has to you know, deliver on the leads that cup in so I lead that team But having said that I think the other interesting thing is that the difference of a consultancy versus an agency is that? The consultancy has a conversation with the CEO who's ultimately responsible for top line and the bottom line of the agency I think where what is your experience there? I mean, I know we're talking about a specialist versus an integrated agency Which one is more capable of driving a conversation with the CEO then? Specialist versus integrated anyone of you Interesting question because I'll tell you what happens now to syllabus. We didn't discuss it Always fun to do this. No, so, you know simple See you are looking for a business growth every money he puts in and every client has a finite money like He looking for a business change But see more answer we know what I agree the KPA is different Some see Amazon Lee Okay, okay, then why I think everybody got that. Yeah. Yeah So I think therefore it is also about ensuring that you're working with organizations where you advise them on what the marketing KPA is ought to be and if you want to partner them on the marketing API said you can deliver then I think That's also something that the agency world should perhaps look at You know to say not just the services we offer but how the marketing ought to be structured sometimes because I think that has an impact On an agency, but you know, I'm gonna I'm looking at the you know time that we have left So I'm gonna come back to all of you and ask this question Therefore, which is important because it gives us it gives everybody over here a Window into thinking that you have inside, you know your Brains here about and you're gonna lead the agencies of the future. That's why you're sitting on the panel Which client what type of client who's looking for a specialist agency? Why are they looking for a specialist agency and who and why they're going and contracting an integrated agency because there's space in the market for both Every digital agency is doing well Okay, everybody has had high growth in the last three years Right whether you're a specialist agency or whether you're an integrated agency everybody all digital business has had high growth Now there is a case for a UX agency being different because you're managing SEO, but two years later We want an overhaul, you know our digital media Agency or an integrated agency may not have that specialized skill So if you have an in-house UX agency in your network, you call one, but you know, that's a specialist job So I feel that there are some specialist jobs which will continue to exist and this I've just given one You know as an example, right? Having said that you leave those aside if you're looking at running the customer experience if you're learning, you know Looking at running the ROI KPI delivering a sale at a cost delivering a lead at a cost, right? And building the brand, you know, then Who's hiring a specialist agency and who's hiring a integrated agency? Sonali you want to go first? Okay, I'm not sure you can be heard if you yeah my closer to okay good fully All right, so I think Goes back to the conversation we were having as well, I think And everybody here in the room is aware aware now that that golden age of everybody turning your neck on a little behind us Today every investor is seeking profitability beyond just user growth as you move along that journey and your consumers and engagement and having a meaningful relationship become more and more important it is going to become Equally important for everybody to move up and own the fund and this I'm talking about the consumer fund which ultimately leads to the brand experience funnel as well and In that sense, I think all brands that have large growth ambitions and a long-term plan will ultimately go in that direction and and and as Profitability is not a you know profitability or building a brand is not a one-day one-time job It is something that is long-term. It is something that you have to drive over time and therefore Back to the point I made about integration being singularly the most important thing if you have to have a partner in an agency and I agree with some that agencies Agency almost feels like a bad word because you are equally invested in the journey of that brand So, so yeah, if that is your goal Then I am squarely in that space So you are saying a client who has a larger vision and wants to build a larger brand should probably look at an integrated agency I mean as long as you have a partner in in them who can actually define the whole journey That's an interesting way to as well as widely. Yeah. Yeah So we as IPP media brands we have a very healthy mix of clients, right? So we'd have an ITC who's looking for an integrated agency because they will say that hey I'm not going to break down into how much needs to go into outdoor how much on to television How much on to connected TV? How much on to search? I'm talking my marketing goals communication planning and from there you take it down, right? At the other end of the spectrum because we have specialist business units Venetian paints would look at us as a specialist agency that is going to drive their digital transformation agenda, right? That has to do with building their website on the adobe platform and so forth and a lot of other clients so We started both sides of it and again it just boils down to Whether the client again wants how much does he want to break down his KPIs? Our recommendation always is that you know you stare the so large clients invariably Do well with integrated agencies also the cost structures change and while people think technology is a great Liberator and equalizer. It's not really true. It takes a lot of capex and Intellectual investment as well before you can say that. Hey, we are able to take care of your data Yes, and the GDP are compliant So again, it depends upon the scale of the client for What makes more sense invariably it is the integrated model that goes along with so one is scale and So now you mentioned their ambition and vision in terms of having a larger brand and I want to ask You know than my this question How about the digital maturity would you consider that to be a factor? Okay, I have a different view on this Look at the top 500 companies clients in India Listed an addicts and if you look at last three years their market cap purchase though I had spent they have done They're not correlating anymore. It basically means that media is not working for them the way it is But if you really cut the data down, you'll see probably around 18% of the clients or market cap is Almost correlates to the media spend and if you take that client set You'll see most of them is integrated marketing. That means they have one or two partners Don't have so many varied patterns Yeah, because I personally believe that more you siloed the business You lose the ambitions that you want to go after and you see that in data I agree and the biggest challenge I see in these clients and there seems to be understanding that because paid media is not Giving up the dividend to their size market cap They need to equate the paid media purchase you on media And that's exactly where you would need integrated because they can bring it together. Yeah You know interestingly, you know when I ran the insurance business and performance marketing and even at the holiday company that I worked for Very interestingly would never put it in the marketing spends. I would put it in the acquisition You know cost for sale because then I got a lot more money from the board Okay, so, you know, so so CMOs sometimes have to do that too, you know to ensure that we get more and more budgets But yes, you're right. I think in terms of the correlation. That's an interesting one I'm gonna ask Prasad to give us the last word today before we kind of end But Ajay, what is your opinion on what kind of clients are hiring specialist agency versus integrated agencies? So I'm gonna have a little fun with all due respect I think a client looking at a specialist agency is one who hasn't really experienced a good Integrated into agency possible possible That's a nice one. Yeah, so See what is a what is a client looking for is he's looking for the best Agency to provide solutions at various levels, right? Whether it's it's e-commerce. It's your TV advertising It's out of form. You're looking for the best man on the in the room, right? That's that's what a client is looking for and if keeping that in the background, right? And as an as an agency as a partner for my clients it the onus is on me To build that capability within my agency to make sure that I am the first partner of choice for the client for whatever he's looking for and in this there is a client interest because only when there is an Integrated player working with you who is the best at everything you need? Can you bring it all together? When does a client look outside? When you do not deliver value in a particular area, I agree you can deliver that value You can make the client's money work that much harder So a client will look for an integrated agency if you as an integrated agency have taken the effort to build the capability and to create The expertise that can actually help Very very well put Ajay. I totally agree. I think it's about Ensuring that you are serving the purpose that the client has hired you for and doing an excellent job You know at it, you know Prasad will not disagree with that But Prasad still you know look into the future and tell me who will hire a specialist agency and who will hire an integrated agency That comes though at the beginning the definition of you know integrated okay, and I would say this is the space is becoming a lot of Skill game. Okay, and if there's a skill and if you want really those IMA guys to joining our industry Okay, then it is about consulting and if that has to happen Then the client who understands Okay, as an integration not from the traditional and digital he will look for someone Okay, who probably could do we as we call it you know six areas media Customer experience data and insights taken you know taken innovation digital first creatives and Basically UI UX and that is where we as a group has sort of picking up some good founder-led companies in a few days back We also last week we took our UI UX company So those are the ones who understands the digital as a catalyst They will go for the way I define the integrated as a one Okay, and I would love to work with them that way because it's very easy to Sort of explain to them Thank you very much for those differential point of views. Let me just conclude especially because the CMOs are not represented here You know I I must I must say that that I think some of the CMOs in the marketing teams probably take the trouble of doing the integration themselves and Therefore do a good job of still building the brand and delivering on the KPIs with multiple specialist agencies Some of them are structured in a manner and you know, perhaps the old FMCG companies where you require an integrated agency because you know the budgets are too big and it is quite complex to you Know do the divisions and they perhaps do not carry the KPI of delivering the digital sales numbers You know so so I think these are various wearables that are coming You know which make me realize that financial services work differently FMCG works very differently You know the new age businesses and the last point that I want to make is very large clients born on the internet businesses Are also building these agency capabilities in house today? So I think that's the other thing, you know, that's extremely important that they are building an integrated media unit You know internally and are perhaps not farming out. You know the business for the audience here Thank you very much to my you know panelists and I think the jury is open on this Whether you know one versus the other agency model will work for the future But yes, you know, I will borrow what Ajay said if you want to retain your clients businesses do a good job