 Great. Well, welcome everybody to the 26th of July 2022 hyper ledger supply chain and trade finance special interest group session. Today, we're going to have Dave, my now from the International Chamber of Commerce talk with all about us. Talk with us about uniform rules for digital trade transactions what you see on the screen right there. And we're glad to have them here. We, I guess, since we're part of hyper ledger here first off, let's go through the standard disclaimer all our welcome so glad that everyone's here. Also in a trust provisions that please don't share anything that's competitive information or collusion or anything like that this is an open session for all of us to learn as well as collaborate and have open questions and all those kind of wonderful things. So, this is Tom Klein, I'm one of the co chairs of the special interest group. We also have on Eric Velikwet, who is based in Montreal, who is another one of our co chairs, and then Andrea for us and you see underneath Dave's name there is another one of our co chairs, and depending on what day it is he's either based in Finsi in Italy, or Pisa or Florence. So, basically, Italy there. So with that, Dave has asked to allow him to go through his presentation have questions at the end. Please, if you have questions, maybe put them in chat, and then we can use them as no see don't forget about them, or have to save them, and then we can go through at the end will go for till the top of the hour. And as I mentioned, we'll get this out on so you can listen to recording if you want to go back to something. So with that, Dave, it's all yours. Thanks Tom and thanks for inviting me to this. It's always welcome to get more information out in the market on the business of trade finance and what's happening in the digital world. So let me move straight into the first slide. I think digitalization is top of the agenda, most certainly in the trade world. If we look at the different elements of financing different things that go on around the world trade finance has probably been the slowest over the previous decades and moving into a digital world there's so much paper there unfortunately. The circumstances of the last two to three years there are folks to rethink in the trade finance arena, and it's really brought the digitalization into focus as never before. In fact, I'd say we've we've seen a progression that in normal times would have taken us about five years to reach. We still at the early stages. If you can see in this slide the building blocks via numerous evolving technologies are in place. The challenge that we have is to digitally replace what is estimated by the ICC to be something like four billion documents that circulate in the trade system for billion paper documents. I mean, that has to go digital. It's just obvious. It was highlighted at the G seven conference last year that digital technology is at the heart of building back better from the pandemic, and it will play a vital role in improving internet safety and transforming the economy. And one of the key interventions that was identified by the G seven digital and technology ministers declaration is a great adoption of electronic transferable records. I'm going to come back to that quite a lot during this presentation. And the G seven members agreed to identify the legal and regulatory barriers, which prevent the use of electronic transferable records by business to make economic savings and generate efficiencies in time security and data processing. Now, on this slide, you can see some of the new technologies actually are enabling that the digitalization of trade and what they fit into the cycle from pre transaction to transaction processing to post transaction. It's not one of my slides you can see at the bottom is produced by the World Economic Forum. And that wanted to be a very useful picture actually, in order to illuminate how and where certain technologies are already providing benefit. For instance, if you look at the DLC the way they read at the bottom, being used to create smartness as a credit to enhance document examination for real time verification and reconciliation. Then you have the OCR near the top the obstacle character recognition, enabling text recognition, checking for completeness of documents. Then we have the incident of things with the ease of tracking goods and documents and tracking document and goods locations. So there's a lot going on. It has been going back to the G7 again they mentioned last year that transferable records such as bills of lading to use very, very heavily in trade are the most important commercial document in trading trade finance and yet currently less than 1% of bills of trading are in electronic form. And some people have actually said it's less than 0.1%. So it's absolutely my new. This is a huge missed opportunity, given the electronic transferable records will make it easier cheaper, faster and greener for companies to trade. So we're offering global trade law into the 21st century basically by enabling businesses across the globe to move from paper based to digital based transactions when buying and selling internationally. I purposely say 21st century, because one of the laws that finance of international trade is based on is from the 19th century, the Bill of Exchange Act in the UK. So this really as you can sell really needs to change. I think this will happen will never achieve these desired objectives. If the regulatory environment remains static. It's really the legal side as well. Fortunately, that is far from the case there are many initiatives in developments at the moment, I'll briefly touched on the one on the top left, the ITC digital standards initiative in a short while. We have a lot of other such as it for with digital negotiable instruments working in this area will have bath. We have a distributed ledger payment commitment, which is a digital asset and global standard for a payment commitment that can be used in any blockchain network and cooperate across that works. What I want to emphasize is the one on the top row, which is on the trial. I mentioned earlier the ongoing work by the G seven on adoption of electronic transferable records. This work will that is, leaving it upon the answer trial model law on electronic transferable records on the leader in sure what's just come to be known. The G seven work is going to encompass all documents of time to one transferable records relevant to international trade transactions. And this includes bills of lading promise you notes bills of exchange checks warehouse receipts insurance certificates etc. And bottom line the G seven countries have agreed to examine all legal barriers and regulatory and technical issues are currently impeding the adoption of electronic transferable records. What we are suddenly seeing in the market in a moment is the first time it's really happened. There's a convergence finally emerging between technology between platform providers, market practice, law and this national Chamber of Commerce rules. What this is doing is fighting what I call the inertia of tradition. So frequently when I talk and this especially banks by the way, when we talk to banks about international trade, they have done things in a certain way for decades. And many of them are very reluctant to change and see no reason to change that their inertia of tradition. What has to happen is bringing in these new laws, new laws, etc. So false these people to stop this inertia to start moving into a digital world. There's three events here at the bottom of the screen I've highlighted are helping us happen. Five years ago in July 2017, the answer trial model law that I talked about the electronic transferable records. This enables a legal use of such records, both domestically and across borders. Then three years back the ICC produced two sets of ICC rules, the EUCP version 2.0, the EURC version 1.0, and these are supplements for electronic presentations under lessons of credit and collections. And then last year, October, the focus of this webinar, the ICC uniforms with digital trade transactions, which serves as the overarching framework for digital trade transactions that are background to the URDTC. As I've said it came into force last year on the first of October. So it is still very much in its infancy. At the exception of the drafting process, the drafting group was given a strict mandate to develop a higher level framework, outlining obligations, rules and standards for the digitalization of trade transactions. This wasn't is the purpose of the rules. This work is now being supplemented by a commercialization substream, which was established early last year. It's got cross industry representation from all key trade regions. And this group is examining both the ICC e-rolls and the URDTC. And it's developing a framework to evaluate the challenges and ideas to drive commercialization and adoption forward. There'll be a very comprehensive plan coming out later this year and recommendations on how we move forward. In the meantime, there is already an implementation guide to the URDTC that's been published. For those that are interested, this can be downloaded free of charge from the ICC website. And this guide details kind of various generic themes which need to be taken into account when we're utilizing the URDTC. It includes the buyer and seller agreement, legal issues, which I'll touch on again later, technology requirements and the usage and examination of electronic records. There's also a comprehensive section on the operational issues and anyone who wants to use the URDTC really does need to understand these in more depth. So as the scope of the URDTC, they're entirely compatible with un-central model laws, primarily Melita, which I mentioned earlier. And it's the foundation for the G7 work on the digitalization of trade. Any digital trade transaction subject to the URDTC must be digital only, no paper. All of the ICC rules in our paper, these rules don't. We're only looking at it as a digital world. But of significant importance is the basis of the rules in that they are not bank-centric. Everything derived from the buyer and the seller agreement. And of equal significance, the rules recognize that financial services providers these days are no longer restricted to just banks. Both of these issues are very big departure from previous ICC rules, but they fit into the modern world in which we are now dealing. A high level process, I mean, you're all going to get this presentation, I guess, so you can spend some more time looking at it separately. But very briefly, it is a high level overview of the actual process. A digital trade transaction is a representation of the underlying transaction. It is the process by which the terms, the commercial contract between a buyer and seller are recorded and progressed. Intrinsically, a digital trade transaction is distinct from the commercial contract. A conditional payment obligation is incurred by a buyer upon compliance by the seller in submitting electronic records to evidence the underlying sale and purchase of the goods or services. And an unconditional payment obligation is incurred by a buyer upon compliance by the seller in submitting electronic records to evidence the actual delivery or receipt of these goods or services. A financial services provider can add a payment undertaking to a payment obligation at any time, even when it's conditional or when it's added to a payment obligation, it's inseparable from that payment obligation. A payment obligation itself is always independent of the commercial contracts. And as the financial services provider payment undertaking is also added to that, the same applies. That is a very quick brief overview. I know it doesn't give you any time to assimilate the content there, but at least it gives you a very quick picture to go through in depth into a couple of hours, to be honest. So the key principles, what is a digital trade transaction? I mean, I've already touched on this. It's a process as agreed by the buyer and seller, whereby electronic records are used to evidence the underlying sale and purchase of goods or services and incurring of a payment obligation. In order to be subject to the rules, a digital trade transaction must specifically state so, and it should satisfactorily reflect the underlying commercial contract, but it is separate. The rules are false and in order to allow for the necessary examination process, you must also specify the terms and conditions by which compliance of an electronic record will be discerned. Considerations and the rules are binding on the buyer and seller. As long as they're not expressly modified or excluded, that can be done individually by both parties. So what we're going to come back to will be a specified in the terms of conditions of the digital trade transaction. Regarding platforms, there's lots of different platforms out there that can be used to process digitally. That's to be agreed between a buyer and a seller. And it's also strongly recommended that the agreed format of the electronic record be stated within the terms of conditions of the trade transaction, because there are so many different formats out there still, many of which are not interoperable. So according to what I've already touched on, it's determined by electronic records submitted in accordance with the terms and conditions of the trade transaction. So what are the benefits? The URDT allow for transactors in an electronic format. That's the key thing. And the changes in law that were derived from the unsurpassed trauma leaders rules allow for possession of digital and commercial instruments. Possessions always been a stumbling block in the past moving to a digital world. Possession with a piece of paper, not so easy digital. And for this, the rules themselves are already ready. Just to recap on people trade instruments. These range from bills of exchange to promise your notes, the bills of lighting, and on occasion warehouse receipts. All of these are free. Dave, hold on one second. Everyone can go on mute please. We're hearing some extra noise. We're hearing everything. Hey, Tom, if you're the host, I think you can unmute Michael. There we go. There's Michael mute. I got it now. There we go. Go go. As I mentioned about the digital trade instruments, they're all irrevocable. They're unconditional and they're autonomous to the underlying contract. And these types of instruments fit perfectly within a framework of the URDT T because they use our technology and platform agnostic. And they give a collective understanding of the terms and definitions, which of course by default leads to compatibility with existing rule books and avoiding repetition. The United Kingdom of Malaysia. It's already been enacted in a few countries including buffering Singapore Paraguay and the UAE. And it's envisaged that the UK will introduce compatible legislation later this year or early next year. And we expect lots of other G7 countries to follow. Additionally, in view of the fact that many countries from the Commonwealth share a common legal history with the UK and English law. We can see a very quick uptake in these locations as well, which is something like 54 to 56 independent countries. Legal implications very quickly here applicable law will always be specified in the digital trade transact itself. Supplements the choice of the applicable law agree between the buyer and seller as long as it's not prohibited by that law or in conflict with that law. So any event that any personal party would be prohibited by law. They're not obligated to do to fulfill their obligations and assume no liability of responsibility. And should they require a different differing law to the that stated in the trade transaction. This must be agreed separately. But one thing I want to say here as if anything we all do law will always prevail over rules. But as long as you can state a law that will help. On the other side, I'm not going to go into this in any depth whatsoever. If you're interested in the technology for data processing processing system, download the implementation guide for you are DTT. But basically, internal data processing systems need to handle the relevant formats for electronic records, they to authenticate messages, they need to be able to execute electronic signatures. At the basic minimum, a data processing system should be able to process the data and maintain adequate standards. On the adoption side, various platforms have already stated their intention to adopt and work with you are DTT a few already are including it within their rule books. On this slide, you can see the commitment from the Marco Polo network to adopt you are DTT terminology and scope. And on here as stocks, but they've already incorporated the you are DTT into their platform solutions. And then the last one to have here the third example is console or actively looking at developing trade products based upon the you are DTT. And then very quickly, I just grabbed three or four examples here where there's public support out there in the market for the you are DTT friends is it for who are highlighted at you are DTT will bring you to trade ecosystems. So exciting times and rules are ahead. A few few for last slides there before we go into questions I want to highlight the first is a G7 which I've mentioned a few times already. Now, in April last year, the G7 in various digital and technology trade ministers agreed to collaborate on electronic transferable records. And as a result of the technical discussions within the G7 together with Australia and the Republic of Korea, they published a roadmap to reform. And this roadmap plays out the practical steps to reform to lead to greater adoption of electronic transferable records across the G7 and beyond. This should encourage greater adoption and use of electronic transferable records. I've covered earlier, but just to repeat it aims to enable the use of electronic transferable records both domestically and across borders by recognizing the legal validity of electronic transferable records are functionally equivalent to their paper based counterparts. Two more here the ICC Center for Digital Trading Innovation. It's obvious that digitalization is going to enable us to deliver a more inclusive, sustainable and greener trading system where more SMEs can participate in trade. The trade is finance becomes more accessible and paper is no longer required. The Center for Digital Trading Innovation or C4 DCI for sure provides a unique opportunity to make this a reality. And it meets in the UK and it meets the UK government's ambition to have a modern open trading system with the rest of the world. And other relations in the region such as Australia, China, Germany, Japan, Netherlands, Singapore, Thailand as many more are moving also quickly to capitalize upon the benefits of digital trade. This is an opportunity for the UK to develop the capability needed to be a model of best practice and work with others. The electronic trade documents for which I've mentioned on here, legislation I've touched on this already is actually underway in the UK to implement such a bill. Now, whilst this may look like a small piece of legislation from the outside, it's actually a game changer for World Trade. Much of World Trade is underpinned by English law. It's a legacy of the UK's historic role in trade, not just across the Commonwealth but for every buyer seller, insurer, financier, intermediary that uses English law as a basis for contract law or handling trade transactions and documents. The bill will actually have a disproportionately large and positive impact on global trade at a time when companies are looking to get their trade costs reduced. They're unsustainably high these days because of paper documents. And this was particularly so for SMEs and parts of the world where the cost of trade can be higher in the actual value of the trade. So industry can now finally start standardizing the digital trade system and start connecting the platforms. And last on the formal slides, this presentation is about the URDTC. I've also mentioned about electronic trade documents. The ICC UK has actually already released a paper on the URDTC and the Electronic Trade Documents Bill. And this examines how the ICC rules are compatible with the proposed legislative change in the UK with regard to the use of possessible electronic trade documents as set out in the recommendations of the Law Commission. This is also downloadable free of charge from the ICC UK website if you guys want to have a look at it. And then finally the ICC Digital Standards Initiative. The idea of that is to establish a globally harmonized trade environment to address challenges and bridge trade digital standard gaps. And these include lack of carrying standards that we have at the moment, the legal uncertainty regarding the acceptance of digital trade documentation. The fact we have platform rule books are hindering change of document exchange and utilisation. The unclear requirements for trade standards and insufficient standards to simplify blockchain and non-blockchain based integration. So that's the presentation itself. As I said earlier, Andrea already had some thoughts about some questions. I'm sure we have some questions anyway, but we should open the floor now. Great. Thanks Dave for sharing that and you're right. We'll be wanting to go through those charts after this and dive in in more detail. So thanks for sharing the charts. We'll get them out together with the video for this recording of this. So there are a couple of questions in the chat here. So the first question is from Michael Darden, and he asks, how do ISO 8000 standards for portable quality data align with your work? Okay, now I'm no expert on that, but I am fully aware that the ICC commercialisation subgroup I talked about is looking very closely at ISO standards. Now the brief information I have at the moment is that there is nothing within ISO standards that conflicts with the URDTT. There is a compatibility there already. So I would hope that the, as some say, commercialisation group I'm talking about will release a paper explaining that in more depth. But all others at this stage, they seem to be compatible. There's no conflict. No, that's always good here. So next Chris McElvogue. So, hey, very interesting, you know, the countries you mentioned Bahrain, you mentioned a lot of the Commonwealth kind of countries UAE there. Yes, are you seeing a similar trend coming out of China, given the scale of their international trade? That's a great question, Chris. Yes, we are actually. In fact, we're seeing a lot of work come out of China on this issue. They themselves are fully aware of the problems that would be faced if they also can't enter into a digital world. If I just talk about the ICC China, their national committee, they're spending a lot of time as they translated these uniform rules. They translated the guidelines and implementation guides that we've introduced. And they're working with all the banks and corporates in China to see how they can start implementing these. They've also, they had their own different technology platforms over there. They have the same problems that the technology platforms around the world. In fact, they're almost like digital violence or silos. They know we have to get into proper board work together. Yes, China are working very, very closely to the rest of the world in moving forward on this. And I'm obviously very pleased to see that. And Dave, maybe, maybe if you could also comment, because I had a similar thought for the US audience, Canada audience, you know, what's going on around here is it sounds like it's more Commonwealth oriented. If you're plugged into what's going on in the UN, then maybe you know about it, but if there's, if there's something specific, it'd be interesting. The US are actually have been very, very proactive indeed. BAF, for instance, the Banking Association, they've done an enormous amount of work on there. But very importantly, I mentioned that we have Milita, this model law for Intertrial going around the world slowly. The UK next year and this year, sorry, introducing the electronic trade documents bill to be compatible with that. The US are also introducing, you have the commercial code, the Uniform Commercial Code in the States. That already from, I don't know this in depth, but I understand that certain parts of the Uniform Commercial Code have been that improved change revised to ensure that electronic transfer records will be acceptable. That work is set to be completed later this year or early next year. So yes, the US is very, very much in the game. In fact, quite a way ahead of many countries. I'll press my luck here. So thanks for that. So, you know, Eric is representing Candor's probably a few others and any Canadian specific stuff that you know about that's going on there. If not, no worries. Dave. No, no, no, I don't uncannot specifically, but as I say, they're certainly going to be aware of what's happening in the US with Uniform Commercial Code. They can be very aware of what's happening in the UK with the electronic document trade documents bill and Canadian law, I think is also has an underlying basis of English law. So it shouldn't be that difficult for them to take on the work on the electronic trade documents bill into Canada. There you go. Thank you. So questions are coming in. We'll consider Michael Darden came back on the other question. Do you also consider an authoritative legal entity identifier. This is a brilliant question. This is actually key to the future. One of the problems that we have, or that banks have especially is it on boarding clients, new customers, because they don't, and it's a very expensive time consuming business to on board a new customer. But if we could have some kind of global identifier, legal entity identifier, as is mentioned there by Michael, it's going to make the work a lot easier. The work is going on everywhere all around the world, different governments and different institutions such as the ICC in pushing forward the global legal entity identifier. The problem we are seeing so far as a take up is actually very, very tidy. We were hoping that the SMEs especially who do the bulk of global trade would start adopting legal entity identifiers. The problem is they've not been convinced. The market has not been able to convince SMEs of why they should do that. They'd be happy to do so if they could see the benefits. So some of the work that's being done by various organizations around the world at the moment is to find to highlight what the benefits are for a legal entity identifier. So that will be one of the key issues moving forward to ensure that the SMEs can get involved in digital trade more easily because it will enable banks to on board customers far more quickly. So yes, a lot of work is going on, but it's too slow, because the benefits haven't been explained properly yet. I guess the question I'll add is kind of subsequent to that. Is GS1 involved in any of that work at all since they've kind of broken the code for at least from a barcode perspective and global trade and I, to be honest, Tom, I don't know. Actually, I don't know the answer to that. Fair enough. Okay. That was also a question about the way if you look at the questions besides his hand and release is pretty interesting because we guessed it a few weeks ago, a speech by GS one Kevin Otto, if you remember, so this is interesting topic. Yes, absolutely. And cheers one has the EPCIS standards that are used for object traceability and identification that are being used for traceability so I'm wondering how these are compatible or if any thought was given to that. What I can say is that a few people did a lot of work last year on looking to see if the DTT were compatible with laws with standards with developments ongoing all around the world. They couldn't find any clash anywhere. So as far as he's known, in my mind anyway, the compatibility is there. I can't guarantee that they looked at this specific standard. I can't be certain. Okay, I can reach out to them and thank you. Yeah. Wherever we're going here with questions let's go to the next one here from john Dunlop you did not mention the EDT work space dot com as a you are DTT platform. So I was thinking john would like you to mention that EDT work space dot com and maybe john enlighten us if no one else knows what that is. Yeah, the San Diego and Imperial District Export Council has sponsored a workspace based on the URDT for all exporters and importers to use free charge that apply the rule. All the templates and all the business method actually provides you are DTT rules to the world. John's absolutely right and I, I need to update my presentation john you're right that should be on there. We're having great success with it David and thank you very much for all your work. Well thank you. The work you've done is actually very comprehensive as well so yeah it's appreciated. Thank you. So john, you get a chance here for a plug is you go to EDT EDT work space dot com and you can learn all about what you're doing. It's published it's working right now and we're doing transactions with weight Italy, South Africa, China and Indonesia with the real beautiful so we got an implementation another implementation out there. Okay, thank you. I don't see the rest of your name here in the chat for john doesn't or not john for Dave doesn't cover cross border payments. Absolutely. Any kind of digital trade transactions be it domestic or international cross border whatever yes 100% and in fact let's look at each other try this primarily cross border anyway. Absolutely. Good deal and folks and if there's additional questions, you can either put them in the chat and see what I'm doing here. So this is a couple of questions that I've been having in mind you see, Dave, Dave and I will talk on a regular basis all over LinkedIn we do participate to events in common. They just my thought you see it being a trade finance specialist for a long time. We're released now by the ICC of the uniform rules for digital trade transactions, and I'm guessing see we saw the release of the EU CP to dot oh a while back in time and related you are see the electronic uniform rules collection. How do you see the future shaping up for this bulk of rules and regulatory framework, are they going to replace those old sets and they're going to interact and integrate how future cannon for all these rules. That's a fair question. I mean, people say why why they're already free sets of digital rules out there from the ICC. They really are the EU CP is primarily for documentary credits and nothing else the you are see is primarily for documentary collections, nothing else. So that's a supplement those existing paper solutions that are there. The IDT is not specifically linked to any products is an overarching framework for all products. Now, where we will go in the future, in my opinion, Andrea, Nivana, the future and it could be 10 years 15 years away still, there will only be one set of digital rules. It won't matter if it's a letter of credit and open account financing supply chain financing, whatever, you can all be covered by one set of rules. But at the moment, that's not the way the market works the markets that ready for it. They want these individual sets of rules linked to their individual types of solution. It's not ideal but we have to start somewhere. Wonderful Dave. You anticipated a little you see my next question maybe regarding you see the products for trade finance we know very well what they are you see credits guarantees. It's going to be a new new standards. We're talking about standards as well. How do you see as you see progress in time, the interaction with ISO 2022 suppose that we had meetings. You see about the LPC and ISO 2022 last year. It's going to come. So, how do you see the interaction with this. We're talking about, we're talking about digital payments in the end. I mentioned earlier about the ICC digital services initiative. They are specifically looking at standards, very, very in depth. In fact, they have a standards toolkit already out in the market which you can also download free of charge from the ICC website. They've identified a hundred different standards that we use in trade finance. So the idea is to make sure that all of these are interoperable and make sure they can work together. So this is ongoing work Andrea, but it's not been forgotten at all. It's very, very high on the agenda. The thing we have to do, we all know this because it's been said now for three, four, five years. We're in a world of digital islands because there are so many digital solutions out there but so many of them don't talk to each other. They don't interoperate. It's okay if we talk to a corporate and multinational. They don't mind on boarding lots of different solutions. They do that already, but you can't expect an SME to do that. If they take on one solution, they have to ensure that solution can talk to their client solution. So this is where the standards side of it comes in. If we don't have standards, they can't talk to each other. That's online. Yes, Andrea. That's been looked at very, very carefully. And by the way, not just by the ICC and by the UN, it's also been looked at at governmental levels and regional levels as well. I subscribe to your words 100% Dave, and this is also my guess. There should be maybe two men of digital islands. They should start talking to each other. Yeah, open way otherwise we come to nowhere. So I think we can go ahead. I have another question with a little bit for last, Dave, just maybe for the closure. Let's go ahead maybe Tom with the questions on on the chat. And I think we answered Samona's question if we didn't. I think that was kind of the last conversation. Some want to come on back here. And our what platforms are there where trade transactions can be conducted based on you are DTT and I think I've, you've mentioned a few of those. I've mentioned some John's touching it as well. I mean, I don't want to mention any others. It would sound like I'm endorsing them. Be aware, there are a number out there. They can talk to each other. Is there a is there a website they can go to I think they can go to the URL DTT website and there'll be a list there. At this stage, there is no list of the different types of platforms that can work with the IDTC. The IDTC commercialization group I've spoken about earlier already talking to a number of platform and technology providers about perhaps endorsing their solutions by making them you are DTT compliance. Now, that would be a very good idea because then we would have a list. However, it's very early days on this one Tom so that works not yet been completed by expect something by the end of the year. So do your do your search on your favorite search engine, or go to tick tock maybe there's a hashtag there for you are DTT and hit tick tock or something. Then you'd really know you've arrived. The other platforms are being proactive with your DTT have announced at their website so just look at their website as you say. There you go. Good. Okay. Nana Prakah, when will it have any impact on the structure of LC comma MT 700. Absolutely not. The only place where I CC role was I mentioned on the MT 700 are in one field where it says these are these this credit is subject to whichever set of rules. So the UCP 600 for paper or EU CP version 2.0 for digital. No, no, no change whatsoever. Okay. And again, if you have follow up questions just keep on pinging and put them in the chat here. And I'll get to them. John I see you're next here you already got you got your plug in. So that that's good guys doing great work anything else you want to share. Well, only that the having that listing of you are DT compliant platform will be really, really useful. I agree John, I agree. I don't know I mean the commercialization group which by the way is headed up by Merlin Douse, but you may know from JP Morgan in the US. It's one of the things they're looking at I'm helping them out with this but they tell me it's one of their priorities up with you john will be great ideas have that. I don't know that gentlemen but if you would pass it on I'd be glad to help. Yeah, we'll do, we'll do. Okay. PD, Pranoova to one, how can blockchain for trade views for this as it will reduce the cost time in compliance is in a significant way. Maybe to answer probably better for you guys to answer that I mean the rules as I said our technology and platform agnostic. We don't endorse any particular technology. We just know that blockchain or DLC is one of the key enablers for us to move forward so it can be used was not for me to tell you how to do it. Maybe a follow on question that are any of the implementations currently out there using the other say they are any of them using blockchain underneath. Yes. Good. So that some of you, some of us in blockchain some are looking at Swift, and there's all different approaches but yeah, definitely. Okay, beautiful, beautiful. Let's see a fossa, you know it doesn't give me the last name what are possible use integration in our interoperability and adopting you are DTT framework for national government. I have a question. That is something. Sorry, that needs to be looked at more closely. If you downloaded the implementation guide I mentioned for you are DTT from RCT website, it will give you some some examples of case studies for supply chain finance. What I would like I think that's a terrific question by the way. And I'm going to pass it on to the commercialization group. There must be way that national governments can perhaps look at this as well. I'm not aware of any use case integrations at the moment, but it's certainly something that should be considered for the future, but do bear in mind. Most international trade is not into government. It's between buyers and sellers. So, but having a government also on board wouldn't do any harm. Yeah, for us at the moment, the only government instruction we have is getting them to change the laws to allow for electronic digitalize transactions. I could guess there's probably some customs and terrorists and stuff like that behind the question. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, good. Chirag house, you are DTT different from you are BPO. What went wrong with BPO. Have you got two hours. Very, very, very quickly. You are BPO had a fatal flaw. In that it was based on banks being a central universe. That's not the case with trade transactions. The central universe. That's what you are DTT is based upon. The people that adopt the rules are banks, so the banks like to see themselves in the middle. I used to work for a bank for many years. But the fact is the BPO was to bank centric. Furthermore, I don't think the marketing was done properly. The benefits were not explained to the market. Regulatory authorities didn't understand the BPO didn't understand where it fitted. But the great thing is we were able to leverage upon that. We looked at the mistakes that you are BPO made to make sure that you are DTT hasn't made the same mistakes. So we now have a set of rules of buyer seller centric, which is where the trade originates. It also identifies that not only banks could be financial services providers, we have FinTechs, etc. We have culprits even that can do that sort of thing. So it's in a different world completely. So very briefly fell because it didn't identify the problems properly. But a lot of good people did a lot of great work for it. And it did set the grounds for you are DTT to be fair. That's actually a perfect segue for the next question from Samona. When are the banks going to adopt the UR DTT rules? I tell you what, it's a great question. Now this is also difficult go back to your BPO with this one that was a problem of you are BPO. I used to work for a bank. I was a Deutsche Bank for many, many years. I worked all over the world with them. And one of the big problems we faced in banking was budget at the end of the year. You all go through projects to get your money. You're all fighting for money to do your business together. And basically, obviously for the sake of the stakeholders, most banks went for the short term initiatives that brought in money very quickly. Digitalization takes a lot longer. So unfortunately, lots of our stuff, we didn't get the money for it. We didn't go forward. UR BPO is one of them. The change we've got now is just not the banks pushing the UR DTT. It's going to be the buyers, the sellers and the FinTech providers that are pushing the UR DTT. There's going to be the platform providers that are pushing the UR DTT. The buyers and sellers in particular, big guys are going to end up forcing the banks to go forward. Now, to be fair, many, many banks are already involved in this. In the commercialization group, there'll be as a dozen banks on there that you will all recognize that working very, very hard to get this forward. So when are banks going to adopt it? They're going to adopt it as soon as their buyers and sellers want to move forward with the rules. And the likes of Consul, Marko, Polo, etc. I said I wouldn't mention names. Forget those names. Some platform providers are already talking to corporates and talking to banks about moving transactions forward. So when are banks going to adopt the rules? A number of banks already have adopted the rules, but we still need to get some market traction here to get this forward. And I think it won't happen just with rules alone. This is where we need the technology providers. We need the legal regulators to move forward. We need the governments to move forward with us to make people be aware they can use these rules safely and beneficially. Cool, cool. I'm seeing 15 new messages after this, so we're probably not going to get through them all here. This is beautiful that there's lots of questions. I'll copy and paste and I'll send along to Dave and maybe we can do something in LinkedIn or something like that. Sounds like the way to do it. So let's go on here, Eric Bellaclet. My counterpart is co-chair here. Another important initiative by the ICC are INCO terms is the INCO terms group looking to modernize using URDTT language. Good question, Eric. The INCO terms are essential in this national trade. They're great. Bob Rone, who I know very well, he was the only non-lawyer involved in recent update of the INCO terms for 2020. He's told me that there's a lot of things that need to change. Are they going to look to modernize? I don't know because I'm not involved in that working group. Should the URDTT become more pervasive, as I'm sure it will in this national trade, and the INCO terms group are going to have to look at it. Whether it needs to change anything, I don't know. But modernizing, yeah, I think they're going to have to. But I'm not involved in that particular group, so I can't say for certain. At this stage, I've heard nothing put it that way. Okay, great. Thanks, Dave. Elizabeth Green has added a nice little pardon to chat here that hyperledger is developing a taxonomy of protocols, standards, methodology and certifications close to that. She has a link. So please click on it as our favorite cool word on talent there. Man, an anthropogenic man, I've haven't heard that word in the URL, but that sounds like a great, great idea there. Elizabeth, so thanks for putting that in the chat. Michael Darden has a link there for us to look at to there. That's the ICC toolkit. Understand it's very useful. Thank you, Michael. Thank you, Michael. So, Mona, David, are you aware of any competition for building a UR DTT standard step by step transaction process to be adopted by all? It's not actually competing with anything. They're not standards. These are rules alone. Stand alone rules, the standards are being developed separately by different technology providers and by organizations such as the UN, the ICC and government. So there's no competition. So if overarching rules that can apply to any digital trade transaction is not competing with anybody that independent neutral rules that give benefits to all parties. Okay, gotcha. It may be even, you know, I might be reading more into it than Simone has as thought but is there a hackathon or something along that where trying to advance it that way that might that might be behind that question. So, okay, good. What's, John wants more of this, he wants to do this webinar again. That's great. Here. Thank you, John, by the way, then, because Dave and I, as I said, we're in chat, going to double this, this occasion. We're going to do more, say in two days. We're going to go for another meeting. Not on this topic exactly, but something related to this. So we're going to bring the flame of digitization more and more. So you see on LinkedIn, I'm pretty active. So you see more announcement of meetings and chats like this one. It's really important for the adoption is this great, great new frameworks. It's very important for me, but being involved with the ICC and the development of these roles. I need to hear from people outside the ICC as well. So I need to hear what you guys are saying. So that's going to help us move the rules forward in the next generation. It's mutual Dave, we're into this together it might seem like you see that it's not at all. So it's joint effort. That's why when you see we at the start of the year we had Thomas Kubiak from ICC delivering a speech about the ICC sustainability program. We're into that being digitization one of the pillars of sustainability so we, we're, we bring the flame of base, see with my place Reagan and Tom, and more and more in the future. And on each side you see that to all Steve that to have you between the attendance again in the future, of course John, join us again and again for the future meetings. Gunscape pose by the way this is very last meeting before the summer kicks in, but in September we're going to go going to be back. There you go any any any last questions from all folks out there, going once, going twice, going 30 times. Where's Gary. Gary's got, he's actually been busy on something else at the moment. Yeah, Gary and I are, we should know we were very closely together, we've got our own company together so. We've got some very nice comments about our workspace, which we adopted the I know payment obligation so thank you for me. Yeah that well Gary and I actually shared information on that as well so I know I know what he sent you. By the way also thank Don Taylor if he's still around. Oh yeah yeah. Good man. Well it's great. Dan Taylor was one of the guys, together with myself and Gary, who have always been very proactive at the ITC and pushing this sort of thing forward. And as with any big bureaucratic organization. Sometimes you hit barriers for some like Dan. Yeah, he helps break the barriers. He's retired now by the way, so. By the way, do we time that we don't use cameras. I, you know, I don't know why would you like to see my smile and face for to see everybody. You know, yeah, there you go. John I normally use cameras but as Andrea knows I've had problems with my internet all day and I look like you get my webcam to work at the moment, I almost couldn't even dial in my service providers have problems all day so normally you would see my face maybe next time. The essence of the platform is the visual communication between the buyer and seller. That's 70% of the trust that's built. So it hinges around the camera. That's why I didn't turn to my camera on you see I'm such in a condition you see we're in a drought here in Italy so we. It's kind of crappy in the moment so I didn't want to spoil your day. Seriously, kidding you see. I'm always in camera. So no, no worries. I know it's visually very important. You know, we're not going to enforce something here but you know it's, it's great when people are so they're smiling face and it's always fun to see backgrounds and I can ask Andrea about his pictures in the background and whatever there so. You want to buy them, by the way. I didn't realize this is turning into a selling webinar also. No, that's not my interest there Tom. I have any interest in that so I call for the meeting with David. To close in style at say the first part of the year for us to say it's very important to stick to this kind of initiatives is pretty interesting and it can open to very interesting future days for us. Good deal. Well thanks, thanks Dave for joining and someone has said earlier thanks to me I Andrea and Dave are the ones who coordinated it I'm the host for today. Since we're Andrea was I think incapacitated at the beginning here with me we all Andrea myself and Eric we all work together here to hopefully bring some good stuff and hopefully add some value in the supply chain and trade finance space and you know maybe a future session will be one of these new chain implementations of you are DTT so with that Andrea said we're going to take a little break here in August when we all go off on vacation or at least you at least even if it's in your mind you get to go on vacation here sometime in August and then we'll be back in September with some new and fun things I'm sure Andrea we posting stuff on our LinkedIn site for our group and hopefully we'll get the wiki going also Alicia is going to help us with that thank you so that we can use that a little bit more and if you haven't heard I'll remember there's the global global forum for the hyper ledger for hyper ledger in Dublin Ireland. In really part of September and I'm sure they're still available tickets and openings there, then I've, you know, suspect the initial look that I went through look like there's some really good sessions including ones around our topics. So with that Andrea Eric anything else you want to share before we close out. Yeah, I wanted just to thank you, Eric for being with us today Alicia as well she she's great addition to the group. Thanks Dave by the way for this insightful meeting this was a pleasure to work with them in certain stuff. And thanks again see you very soon in September. I've already enjoyed it. Thank you. You're welcome Dave. Thank you so much and the business from the sample Turkey. Thank you so much Dave. Good to see you. Thank you, Dave. Thanks so much. Okay, we're going to we're going to close now. Look, look for this stuff out there you can see the recording. Yeah, the charts. This is going to be on YouTube I'll be posting as soon as possible. The slides and recording of the meeting. So you you'll see them on our Lincoln inside. Very soon. Thank you everybody enjoy the rest of the day. We'll see you soon. Bye bye. Bye. My name. Cheers.