 Welcome to our second panel on bio-solution and in this panel we have five speakers who will be discussing bio-based energy and materials so I think this is a great opportunity to once again learn a lot. We're going to kick this one off with Ben Hill-Walker who is a technical affairs worker for BTEC which stands for the Biomass Thermal Energy Coalition. Thanks so much Carol. Thanks to EESI and the Sustainable Energy Coalition for putting on this great event. So I'm here to talk a little bit about really thermal energy and how it relates to biomass and really what policy can really help us with in terms of making a dent in our greenhouse gas emissions and our carbon intensity through use of this important resource. So the main idea that I'd really like to focus on is that you know we've in terms of American energy policy we've tended to very to do very well focusing on renewable renewable sources for electricity on reducing emissions in our transportation sector sometimes to the point where certain automakers have had trouble perhaps complying with all the the regulations so we you know we've done a really good job at that but I think one of the glaring errors are areas where our policy landscape could improve is in the thermal energy sector which heating and cooling depending on the estimates you look at counts for about 30 to 40 percent of our energy usage and the biomass thermal energy council was formed in 2009 to really promote the use of biomass for heating and combined heat and power uses in really addressing these needs and presenting a unified voice for using biomass such as forest residuals agricultural waste and a lot of different forms of woody and agricultural biomass that would otherwise essentially go to waste and use up energy being being dealt with in that way so we really see this as a great solution we have about 90 members in our organization all across the United States Canada and Europe representing most of most of the of the American States and in terms of policy some of the things that I'd like to highlight one of the initiatives that we're really excited to see taking root across especially state policy is the idea of thermal renewable energy credits which have the awesome acronym T Rex so you know they although hopefully they're not as scary but they're very useful not only for accounting for renewable energy from biomass but also from solar energy geothermal and we really think that this is this goes along ways to addressing some of these policy imbalances in terms of only considering electricity and transportation fuels as as areas that need to be addressed so Massachusetts has recently drafted some regulations in their alternative portfolio standard dealing with thermal metering and credits for these for renewably produced BT use also New Hampshire has been doing this for a while and they're they're a handful of other states that have started to implement this we're also excited to see in the most recent House and Senate energy bills language allowing federal agencies to utilize thermal energy for their renewable energy compliance goals so again another another way that we're seeing the federal government actually being a leader in this we're in terms of policy we're also very happy to see the there's a house biomass caucus which Kathy McMorris Rogers who's speaking at today's forum it is is one of the members of and we have a number of strong supporters in the Senate including Senator Franken and Senator King of Maine who have really been supportive of sort of leveling the playing field in terms of renewable energy tax credit structures so I think all of us are fairly familiar with how renewable energy investment tax credits have really helped out at key times with the solar and the wind industries this is essentially legislation that would address that would provide a similar solution for a number of other technologies that have not yet been been given that treatment so and a couple of other things that that BTEC does as an organization that you might be interested in and knowing about we're very big on really pushing pushing the industry forward in terms of efficiency and sustainability through codes and standards for for example boiler efficiency for grading different fuels for safe and proper storage of pellet fuels especially for example for developing a bulk delivery infrastructure for wood pellets as they much as they have in Europe and so and we also are partnering with a lot of our regional regional networks of sustainability advocates of folks in the forestry and agricultural and university sectors and in industry who are working on better solutions for for integrating biomass energy and making sure that it's really a good sustainable solution for us and so for example there's a new Yale University led feasibility of renewable thermal technology initiative which includes technologies such as geothermal heat pumps and solar thermal we also have the Pennsylvania biomass energy association a working group in the northeast called an I am a biomass thermal working group of the northeast and he in the Midwest so we really for you know folks who are in DC but also you know all across the country we're really seeing a lot of strides forward in in producing more of our heat and cooling from biomass and even producing a little bit of power from that as well so glad to talk to you about that and I hope you have a chance to stop by our booth thank you and I must say that biomass is often so misunderstood that there are so there's so much information that we need to know about biomass coming from all sorts of feedstocks all sorts of plant matters and it comes in many many shapes and sizes all over the country and so this panel is a great way to start to learn a lot more about all of that so we're not going to turn to Jennifer Jenkins who is the chief sustainability officer right thank you and it's my pleasure to be here really appreciate the invitation and so we'll talk a little bit about the practical sort of on the ground reality of sourcing biomass and making wood pellets I have four topics I want to talk to you about today the first one I'm going to talk a little bit about in Viva and our facilities and how we do business I'll talk about our supply chain sort of where we get our wood I want to set the stage for the Southeast US which is where we source the majority of our wood and where we make our pellets and then I'm going to talk to you a little bit about how we ensure sustainability so first with and even our facilities we are the world's largest maker of wood pellets are our facilities we have six facilities located in North Carolina Virginia Mississippi and Florida and we have we ship out of a couple of different ports from one from Port of Chesapeake near Norfolk Port of Wilmington Port of Panama City in Florida we do export at this point for now a hundred percent of our pellets mostly two customers in the EU and over in the European Union and in the United Kingdom in terms of our supply chain the thing I want to emphasize and this is sort of what my what what Ben had mentioned as well we when you go in and when somebody harvests a forest what they're really after are the big saw timber trees the pretty ones the ones without any crooks or you know eyes or any you know any any defects the ones that aren't crooked or forked but as part of the harvesting process you end up with a lot of other ones the ones that aren't so good-looking and those are typically the pulp wood they're smaller and the alternate fate for those trees is decay they would either lie on the forest floor or they or they would go to the pulp wood and paper industry which has a has a short-term turnaround and so the wood that we take really is the lower quality it's sort of the it is the residues from forest harvest it's the pulp quality trees it's not the saw timber trees we can't we can't afford those trees they're they're too big they're they're much more they're much more valuable in fact on average when we go into you know when we do take wood from a forest harvest and we're never taking all of it when we do take wood from a forest harvest on average we're taking about 37% of the of the wood that comes off that stand and it accounts for less than 10% of the economic value that's received so the saw timber trees are worth four to eight times as much as I said we do work in the southeast us so that we take wood from the forests that are there so for the most part those are mixed oak pine stands they are thinnings from southern yellow pine sort of an intermediate treatment when you go into improve the stand you take out trees that you don't want and then those are often the ones that we will take in terms of setting the stage for the southeast us there's more so this is a great place to work it's one of the world's biggest wood baskets there is more forest there now than there was in you know after World War two in the last 50 years there's even in addition to there being more forest acreage there's also more forest production so roundwood production in the southeast us has increased in all categories in the saw timber hardwood and softwood saw timber categories as well as the hardwood and softwood pulp categories 86% of the land base is privately owned so we don't actually own our own forests we do take wood from forests that the landowners are choosing to harvest often those forests are owned for their inheritance they're sort of a family asset and they're often used for revenue so it's a great place to do business the in terms of the three pillars of sustainability we we go beyond compliance in terms of the ensuring sustainability of the wood that we harvest that's as foresters we sustainability is our bread and butter right we don't have a forest resource if we don't maintain it and care for it appropriately so but in terms of how do we do that the the three pillars for us are we our certification we maintain all of the appropriate sort of third party certifications if you're familiar with this industry you know certification is a key part of it there are chain of custody and supply chain certifications that that are available for businesses like ours and we maintain them all so SFI is one for stewardship council is another PEFC which is a UK based certification we also maintain that for all of the wood that goes out of all of our ports we also choose to purchase whenever we can wood that has been grown on a certified forest now not much of the land base in the southeast u.s. is certified at all landowners find it's not worth their while often they don't get a revenue out of it so about less than 20% of the land base in the southeast u.s. is certified to any standard and so we do whenever we can source certified wood we end up with about 15% of certified wood in our supply chain the second pillar of sustainability for Enviva is our care for the forest landscape we as I said believe strongly in sustainability and and increased production and sustained production across the landscape we also believe there are certain forests that should not be touched they're just too precious and they're rare and they're too valuable and so for that we have two things that we have done that ensure that the first thing we do is we ensure that we don't source wood from those from those types of forest and we've identified them and we have indicators of what they are so that we stay away from them the second thing we've done is we have invested $500,000 a year for the next 10 years so total of $5 million in what we call the Enviva forest conservation fund which is a fund set aside for preservation of working forest landscapes and we do that because we believe that not only should we not harvest we don't believe those forests should be harvested by us or by anyone frankly and so we have made the investment in the company-wide commitment to save those forests from harvest. The third pillar is transparency so for every every load of wood that comes across our scales we know what its GPS coordinates were who the owner is you know what kind of forest it was where exactly exactly where it came from how old it was you know how much volume was sourced from that particular forest how much of the volume we received so that's actually industry leading I don't think you'll find any other company that is in business like ours that actually does that and we can we can provide those data and we will as soon as soon as we can we expect in the next few months to have something like that published online so that is what we do hopefully it gives you sort of an on the ground assessment of what a business like ours looks like we're very proud of it we provide wood pellets as a substitute for coal in power plants as a renewable fuel where it reduces greenhouse gas emissions. Great thanks so much Jennifer and obviously sustainability is key and thanks for talking about that. We're not going to turn to Chris Plylin who is with Growth Energy and he is the Director of Regulatory Affairs. Great thanks Carol I'm glad to be here thanks you all being here this morning. Growth Energy despite the name we are actually the Association of Ethanol Producers we represent about 85 of the nation's 200 biorefineries and we produce ethanol predominantly from corn despite what folks may think this is not corn that you eat on corn on the cob this is predominantly animal feed and we literally take the starch out of the corn produce fuel and the rest which are called distillers grains goes right back into the animal feed system. You know we talked about sustainability this morning we are really in the transportation fuel business. Just out of curiosity for a little audience participation who has fueled their car with ethanol all right who drives a car just let's start there. Okay well if you fueled within a hundred miles of here you put at least 10% ethanol in your car that's a little I'm not sure many folks know that. We as a nation use about 142 billion gallons of gasoline each year and the ethanol industry represents about 10% of that we were able to produce between 14 and 15 billion gallons it's predominantly blended as E10 or 10 you see it as regular gasoline but it's really a 10% ethanol blend and why do we blend ethanol into our gasoline well there's a couple different reasons most importantly ethanol is an oxygen it so you're getting octane and it helps your fuel burn much more efficiently it reduces particulate emissions it reduces greenhouse gas emissions ethanol is about 34% on average better for greenhouse gases than gasoline it takes things like carbon monoxide benzene toluene a lot of these are you know known toxins or carcinogens out of the atmosphere and so you know those are the sort of the consumer reasons you really want to blend with ethanol and part of this is what's happened here in Congress about 10 years ago Congress recognized the benefits well Congress recognized several different things at that point we were importing about 60 60 70% of our fuel from overseas a lot from countries that we do not get along with very well particularly in the Middle East and so Congress seeing a need implemented the renewable fuel standard it called for at that time it called for 15 billion gallons of renewable fuel to be blended into our nation's fuel supply it didn't most of it was from ethanol but also get into other fuels which we'll talk about later on Congress then revised it in 2007 adding a greenhouse gas reduction component to it and so today's renewable fuel standard calls for 36 billion gallons by 2022 we're in the process of going through the 2017 proposed rule now which EPA has said at 18.8 billion gallons of renewable fuel to be blended it sounds like a lot but when you talk about 142 billion gallons of gasoline and what 50 billion gallons diesel 50 60 something like that you're you know we're really a small part you know we've got a nation's transportation system which has been built for a hundred years purely on on oil you know when you guys go fill up your pump you've basically got three choices at best you know it's regular mid-grade or premium we're trying to change that we're trying to give you lots of opportunities to you know as a consumer you can go to the store and buy I can buy Dasani water I can buy Poland spring water I can buy big ones small ones when you go to the gas pump you like I said you've got three choices at best we want to give you the opportunity to fuel up with higher ethanol blends E85 even further reductions in greenhouse gas emissions either further particulate reductions E15 is being introduced in the market today E15 can be used in any vehicle that's 2001 or newer you're seeing it at places like sheets particularly in North Carolina racetrack just agreed to put it in a hundred stores come and go you know and it's selling for between five and ten cents less who doesn't want like who doesn't want to buy cheaper gasoline that's better for the environment I mean it's a no-brainer the problem is is access and that's really what the renewal fuel standard does for us a lot of people complain that it's a mandate but we've got a few we've got a transportation fuel system that's been built solely on oil and you can't just unlike you know buying water you can't just go and put it in the store you've got to have access to the marketplace and right now when you see Exxon or BP above a station you better believe they control what fuel goes into those those stations they may not own the station they certainly control what's available and so we're at the we're at the precipice of changing that the renewal fuel standard basically looks like this and calls for higher volumes but the only way to get that to work is to have these higher ethanol blends in or higher biofuel blends into place and we're seeing that today as I said we're you know we've got major retailers who are now offering these transportation fuels we think it's a win-win for consumers it's a win-win for the retailers and really it's a win-win for our nation you're getting substantial environmental benefits you're getting economic benefits ethanol is produced here domestically you know we support nearly 400,000 US jobs nearly 40 45 billion dollars to the economy and you know we're having to we're having to import less crude oil from you know overseas so ultimately we think this is a real solution for our transportation fuel system you know I think the other piece that we talked about as well is there's been a big focus on reducing I'm sorry improving gas mileage fuel mileage for cars as I mentioned earlier ethanol is a high-octane fuel so as car builders go to smaller more higher efficient engines they need higher octane fuels well nobody wants to buy an expensive premium to put in their new car ethanol if you blend it's say a 30 percent ethanol rate you're actually getting a fuel that's cheaper than regular gasoline and at a premium octane level like a 92 octane so again it's we think you know ethanol is a winner we think biofuels are a winner we think they help all the goals that we're talking about today and with that I'll turn it back over thanks great thank you so we're not going to look at another very important biofuel and to hear about that we will turn to Ben Evans who is the director of public affairs with the National Biofuel well thanks Carol and thanks to the coalition for putting on another great expo this year and for giving us a chance to talk about biodiesel and the role that it's playing in the nation's energy mix again my name is Ben Evans I'm the director of public affairs for the National Biodiesel board we represent biodiesel and renewable diesel which is a similar renewable fuel diesel replacement it's made using a slightly different technology from from biodiesel we have about 200 members across the country we represent fuel producers fuel distributors feedstock suppliers and others there are biodiesel and renewable diesel plants in almost every state in the country from from California to Iowa to Rhode Island and they're making fuel from a wide variety of of feedstocks biodiesel can be made from any kind of fat or oil the leading feedstocks in the US are plant oils like like soybean oil recycled cooking oil animal fats rendered animal fats and the diversity in those feedstocks is actually a real benefit for the industry and for the markets last year the biodiesel and renewable diesel industry supported about almost 50,000 jobs across the country so obviously ethanol sort of dominates the conversation in in Washington over renewable fuels I think that's understandable given that it's by far the largest renewable fuel at about 15 billion gallons but we we think that the that the biodiesel story is really another sort of remarkable success story in the renewable fuel space that it doesn't get a lot of attention so I'm happy to have the opportunity to talk about it so if you look back 10 years biodiesel was really sort of an niche industry we you had some co-ops and small companies producing biodiesel we did about 25 million gallons in 2005 so fast forward to last year and American consumers used almost 2.1 billion gallons of biodiesel in 2015 it's 2.1 billion gallons out of a diesel market of about the on-road diesel market is about 40 billion gallons the overall if you take into account all industrial use is everything is about 60 so clearly the industry has grown a tremendous amount over the past decade and that's really a testament to policies like the renewable fuel standard and the biodiesel tax incentive that are stimulating investment and growth and hiring in the industry around the country we're now to a point where a lot of the truck stops around the country are selling biodiesel blends of 10 15 maybe 20% you have fleets corporate fleets school bus fleets you know utilities and municipalities are turning to biodiesel to reduce the carbon footprint of their buses and trucks and if you drive a diesel vehicle and you go buy diesel fuel in the United States you're likely getting up to 5% biodiesel at times without even knowing it biodiesel up to 5% meets the same technical specification as petroleum diesel doesn't even require labeling and that's an important point biodiesel doesn't require any sort of modification to your engine it can be used in existing diesel engines to as they are today so I think one of the one of the things we're most proud of is the role that that biodiesel is playing in and in delivering advanced biofuels to consumers there's a lot of talk about advanced biofuels not happening as quickly as folks had hoped certainly cellulosic has been cellulosic ethanol has been a little slower to develop than was anticipated but biodiesel is proving that we can develop advanced biofuels on a commercial scale nationwide in an economical way and deliver it to American consumers with real huge reductions in greenhouse gas emissions so what does that mean what is an advanced biofuel a lot of people throw that term around in different ways but we like to stick with the with the EPA's definition which is that an advanced biofuel reduces greenhouse gas emissions by at least 50% compared to petroleum diesel or the petroleum counterpart baseline fuel so in its analysis for the RFS the EPA found that biodiesel reduces greenhouse gas emissions by at least 57% and as much as 86% compared with petroleum diesel and that's including everything all the energy inputs that go into making the fuel the in any indirect impacts the tailpipe pollution it's really the whole shooting match it's 57 to 86% the California Air Resources Board and developing a low carbon fuel standard recently came up with a similar result of 50% reduction to 81% reduction again depending on which feedstock is used to make the fuel so you know I want to repeat that every gallon of biodiesel that we use instead of petroleum diesel is reducing greenhouse gas emissions by at least 50% and as much as 86% and that is a tremendous reduction there's not a fuel on the planet that delivers that level of a carbon reduction at least it's you know in commercial scale production on a widespread level nationwide and and so we're very proud of that biodiesel in fact is the first and it's so far the only advanced biofuel that's designated as such by the EPA with with commercial scale production on a on a nationwide basis so and I think that's particularly important and Chris Chris got to this a little bit the the transportation sector accounts for more than a quarter of us greenhouse gas emissions there's a lot of talk with the clean power plan about the utility sector that's about 30% of us greenhouse gas emissions the transportation is second in in terms of the sectors at 26% so clearly if we're going to do something about greenhouse gas emissions in the United States we have to do more with finding alternatives petroleum and the RFS is doing that you know I think everybody hope once things to change overnight nothing's going to change overnight but we're making real progress with the RFS in displacing petroleum and we can continue doing that with with with with smart policy moving forward so I think with that Carol I'll stop there. Okay thank you. Thank you so much. Well our final speaker on this panel is Claude Condesur who is the CEO and general counsel for plant oil powered diesel or POS. Claude? Thank you Carol I'd also like to thank our hosts the energy the environmental and energy study institute the sustainable energy coalition and the United States Senate and House of Representatives renewable fuel and energy efficiency caucuses. Plant oil powered or pop diesel is the first company in 2013 to win US EPA approval to sell 100% ordinary plant oil as fuel to power diesel engines when I say plant oil I'm speaking basically of vegetable oil like the stuff you buy at the grocery store. The engines have to have our special EPA approved and patented auxiliary fuel system installed on them which doesn't change the engine at all it's just a secondary fuel tank to hold the plant oil but other than the brief startup and shutdown period on petroleum diesel the engine runs on 100% ordinary plant oil this fuel is better performing than petroleum diesel in the engine pop diesel will be able to sell it for 50 cents a gallon less than petroleum diesel even at the lowest prices that petroleum reached in the last year and that takes into account the use of 10% additional plant oil fuel to power the compression ignition or diesel engine because of the fact that it has slightly lower energy content still 50 cents a gallon in real cost savings to the trucking customer and with our equipment installed the engine runs on 100% plant oil pop diesel has gotten approval from the EPA for a specific kind of plant oil from the Hitropha tree whose fruit and seeds are inedible and therefore don't compete with the food supply if they're used to make biofuel and let me just distinguish a little bit between Hitropha plant oil fuel and biodiesel because we're commonly confused our fuel is commonly confused with biodiesel biodiesel starts out as as plant oil the molecule pictured on your left and then it undergoes and very energy intensive and costly transformation which actually restructures the molecule into something else which is called biodiesel then the biodiesel is restricted by nationwide standards adopted by the petroleum industry to being blended for on-road use and only a 5% concentration so when you hear of biodiesel being used by a municipality or a trucking fleet typically it's going to be 5% biodiesel and 95% petroleum diesel there are some engines that can run on as much as 20% biodiesel but then it's still 80% petroleum diesel studies done by the national renewable energy laboratory a survey conducted and commissioned by EPA conducted for EPA found that when you take the ordinary plant oil and you process it into biodiesel you basically double the amount of energy that's invested in the fuel the European Union EPA made its finding that Ben spoke about concerning biodiesels providing 50% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions I think it was in 2008 the European Union did a revisit of that issue in the last year and found that basically biodiesel when you process the plant oil into the biodiesel you produce more overall greenhouse gas emissions not just out the tailpipe but in the manufacturer etc of the fuel you end up with between 1.3 and three times more overall greenhouse gas emissions put into the atmosphere than if you just left the plant oil in its ordinary state so because we pop diesel does not further process the plant oil into biodiesel we can sell the fuel for the low price that I mentioned 50 cents a gallon below the price of petroleum diesel let me speak to you a little bit about our method of growing hetropha hetropha tree grows in all of the non-arid tropical areas of the world pop diesel works only in non forested areas savannah land that does not have trees on it or at least forest land it's not forest land we partner with small scale farmers they grow the trees on their own land for every acre of hetropha trees that a farmer plants in partnership with pop diesel we support the farmer to grow between one and three acres of food crops some opponents of biofuels say that there's a choice between using land for to make biofuels or to grow food crops and this is simply not true if you're growing in areas that are savannah land that are not forested and there are vast expanses of the tropical world in Africa Asia and South America that are not forested and that are not being used or that are agricultural land or past agricultural land that's lying fallow where farmers can grow both hetropha trees and food crops when pop diesel supports a farmer to grow food crops the farmer gets yield of the food crop between two and five times more than if the farmer were growing it on his or her own so we don't think there's a choice between hetropha by the method that pop diesel has adopted on growing the trees on non forested savannah land and supporting the local farmers to grow food crops as well the hetropha tree is a remarkable tree in some respects well first of all let me just say that we believe that it's nature's best carbon sequestration device because it produces the highest yield of oil per acre of any tree or crop other than palm oil trees and palm oil of course is a food product so if it's used to make biodiesel or some other biofuel then you're diverting that supply away from the food commodity in addition palm trees extend their roots shallow and wide and they tend to extract nutrients out of the top soil and that's created a lot of problems for the image of biofuels in developing countries because palm trees do take the diminish the quality of the soil in contrast the hetropha tree it's a softwood tree and it extends its roots deep and they take minerals and other nutrients from below the top soil and bring them to the surface and when the the fruit and the leaves and the branches decompose when they fall to the earth and decompose you contribute those additional minerals and other nutrients back to the soil so hetropha trees actually enrich the soil and leave it better for later on I've seen land that was completely cleared of top soil hetropha trees were planted on this barren land and were allowed to grow the fruit sleeves and trees fell to the ground and decomposed and also the hetropha has a very high nitrogen content so when that decomposes it enriched further and reaches of soil four or five years later the hetropha trees were cut down and you had very rich dark top soil with lots of earthworms in it ideal for growing additional crops so with with that in mind pop diesel has the idea that if we take an area the size of the Amazon rainforest and we planted that in West Africa half in hetropha trees and half in food crops then we could supply all of the petroleum diesel needs of the United States both on-road and off-road in addition we would generate enough food crops to feed 1.5 billion people this is entirely feasible to do this book which is titled collapse how societies choose to fail or succeed by Pulitzer Prize winning author Jared Diamond in its chapter 9 explains that the country of Japan was on its way to becoming denuded of trees several centuries ago the leaders got together made a conscious decision to reforest and today Japan is one of the most highly forested countries in the world as being as well as being one of the most highly intensely populated with the highest population density within the industrial world so this has been done already in Japan and with the hetropha tree we can do this in areas of of the world that are presently not forested and when pop diesel will be planting by 2018 45 million hetropha trees in a concentrated area of 30,000 acres in partnership with small-scale farmers in West Africa and when you plant that many trees in an area the trees transpire they give moisture back to the atmosphere and if this is done in a systemic way then indeed you can begin to add more moisture to the atmosphere and ultimately reverse the the desertification that is occurring from North Africa spreading down up to the Atlantic coast and and change the the climate there and produce more moisture as well as I said producing enough potentially hetropha plant oil to supply America's needs and additional food crops briefly on policy matters pop diesel is not allowed to sell our products to the US market although we've proven to EPA that the emissions from hetropha plant oil are no worse than petroleum diesel EPAs greenhouse gas regulations are not based on life cycle emissions they look oddly only at tailpipe emissions and because of the particular structure of the plant oil molecule plant oil produces higher tailpipe emissions but has much lower overall net life cycle emissions but because EPA in its in its regulations of which engines can be sold to the US market looks only a tailpipe emissions unless EPA adopts revised regulations which they are supposed to be announcing next month we will not be able to sell these engines to the US market one last point I know my time is expired okay is that the EPA regulations on which hetropha plant oil can come into the US are overly restrictive because they prevent essentially this kind of oil from coming from Africa and Asia because those countries didn't keep paper records of what the land was used for back in 2007 so as a result pop diesel believes that the renewable fuel standard in the hands of a government agency is really not the way to go and we would support adoption of a fossil fuel tax and elimination of specialized credits and subsidies that are presently awarded to certain kinds of fuels and technologies not only in the motor fuel area but in other areas as well when solar etc thank you very much thank you Claude we are running a little short on time but I just wanted to mention that here again it's an example of how there are so many different kinds of feedstocks appropriate in different places that can make such a difference and obviously we should remember that our transportation sector as as you've heard is so dependent upon petroleum and we now have more greenhouse gas emissions from petroleum in this country than we do from coal so it's just important to keep all of that in perspective and I think there's a clarification I just wanted to make clarify a couple of things you talked about 20% 5% by it is the vast majority of vehicles and it sold in the United States support 20% blends of biodiesel there's a few brands that don't the vast majority do the state of Illinois has had a tax incentive for 11% biodiesel for five years almost every vehicle in the state of Illinois runs on 11% biodiesel if it's a diesel vehicle so that there was a little misinformation there about the 5% limit and then you mentioned the EU study there's all sorts of studies about renewable fuels I think we all we all know that about the emissions of biomass and renewable fuels but the EPA analysis was in 2010 in the California Air Resources Board was just in the last year when they analyzed biodiesel and found the 50 to 81% and I don't think anybody would argue that carb is a regulatory pushover that is for sure and that they have been moving forward on all sorts of greenhouse emissions standards and also a low carbon fuel standard as well so I want to thank all of our panelists and if you've got questions you know please see them like out in the hall and we look forward to having our next panel prepare and come up thank you very much