 In response to calls by the governors of 17 southern states for President Mohamed Buhari to restructure the nation among other demands, the governor of Kogi State Yahya Bailu has noted that the president has since heeded the calls for restructuring by signing Executive Order No. 10, an order that has been suspended. He said that governors should implement certain demands in their various states before making such from the federal government. Joining me to have this conversation is Babashala Adigui. He's a political analyst and Jacob Adi is the former chairman of the NUJ FCC chapter. Thank you very much gentlemen for joining us. Happy to be here again. All right. I'm going to start with you, Mr. Adi, because you're joining us live from Abuja. A lot of people have reacted to the southern governors and their demand. But what the governor of Kogi State is saying is nothing different from what the Senate president had said last week, although he on one hand is also saying that he wants to run for president, that Nigerians are asking him to run for president and if he doesn't, that he would be letting Nigerians down. This statement of his about the 17 state governors in the south, how presidential is it? Mr. Adi, can you hear me? Yes. Hello. We can hear you. Yeah. Can you take the question? I think towards the end, I didn't get it right. Well, I'm just asking now that the Kogi State governor is trying to run for presidency because he said that Nigerians are asking him to run. And he's also accusing the state governors of the 17 states who have come together to ask for restructuring and also putting a ban on open grazing. The statement that he made, how presidential is it? If he were a president, I mean, he's trying to run for presidency and he's making this statement. How presidential is that statement? Well, first of all, it is presumptuous to say that he made the statement as a president. He's not yet the president of Nigeria. No, no, no. I didn't say, I didn't say he's a president. I said this is someone who's running for office. If this is the person who wants to be our president, is this a statement he should be making? And in whose favor is this statement? Because Nigerians are experiencing a serious level of insecurity as it's never done before. Well, it is this. In politics, you may take a position today and in the next four years, you may see reason to amend your position. At the moment, majority of the information available to Governor Ayah Bello is because he's the governor, he's a sitting governor, and so he sees things from that point of view. So you're saying to me that maybe because Kogi State is not experiencing what the southwest states or the southeast or the south-south states are experiencing, so this is a very good stand for him to take. And then maybe in a few weeks or in a few years, he might recant what he said the other day. No, I don't think that is the point. I don't think that is the point. The point is this. What the governor is saying is very simple. The demands of the southern governors is a moral question. They should also put into practice what they are calling for and see how easy or difficult it is. There is no state of this country today that is not experiencing one challenge or the other, one security challenge or the other. So this is the time that all the stakeholders must sit down and look for an acceptable resolution to the challenges we are having as a nation. Do you agree with his position? Because he does make a point. He's saying, look, the president signed an executive order number 10, which governors had kicked against over and over again, asking for financial autonomy for not just the judiciary, but even the local government. In fact, the local government's issue, the federal government has proceeded to tell the finance ministry to pay the monies directly to the local government account. Or for the judiciary, that's still an issue that's pending. And of course, remember what the NGF had, the statement they made to that effect. So really, is this also a case of a pot calling kettle black when the southern governors are saying that they want restructuring when they can't as much as do the same in their states? Actually, I don't know why the federal government signed the executive order 10. For me, there was no need for it. Because it's already stated in the Nigerian constitution of 1999, as amended. Section 821, subsection 3, likewise section 121, subsection 3. So where it is, where it's spelled out for judicial financial autonomy. So for the federal government to now come up and sign executive order again on the demand or on the cry of the judicial arms and the national assembly or the state entire assembly arms. For me, it is enough for no reason for any states not to abide with such law. Why, why is that? The reason is this, the constitution is there. Judicial autonomy is stated in that section 821, subsection 3, that from the Constituted Revenue Fund, the amount met for judiciary should be sent to the Nigerian national judicial commission to be disposed to the Nigerian judicial commission and they want to determine how they will spend the money. So I don't understand the situation whereby the state governors receive their own federal location from the federal judicial account and you now find it very difficult to grant the state judiciary the financial autonomy. Give them what is being budgeted for them. Let them be the ones to decide that. It must not be the situation whereby any time they need money for stationaries that they will want to executives. In other words, you are trying to tie their hands from executing their primary rules. And as a result, you can easily influence their decision. So you're telling me that the federal government is complicit. You're saying that they're being political with what they're doing right now because if you're saying that the federal government, as the constitution has said, they are supposed to send these monies directly just as what they've done for the local government. So why is the federal government taking the route that they've taken, executive number 10? I mean, this is a big question that everybody is asking if the constitution already has it. So does it mean the federal government is complicit? It actually means that. But I think sometimes it's the understanding of the law, or sometimes one thing I've discovered about Nigerian government is that they come up to do some things just to please some people or to avert national strike or whatever. Not because it is not in the constitution. So it is not well-spread out this percentage or the ratio shall we go to the national judicial. That is what I expect, that if the federal government is serious about this thing, it should be stated even the so-called executive order. Interesting. Let's move away from the executive order and talk about some other things. Governor Yahya Bailu insisted that, and he said with due respect to the southern governors and what they had come up with, he's saying that whatever the governors want the federal government to do, they should be practicing it at home. Now when we're talking about insecurity here, I'm coming back to you, Mr. Adi. The case of insecurity is a very sensitive one, and the state governors, like I said to my earlier guests, seem to be in their eyes doing what they need to do to protect the people or the citizens in their state. Again, we know how the government works, the police, the soldiers, the army, the navy, they all do not report to the governors. They work with the governors in the different states, but they do not necessarily take orders from the governors. Could this also be one of the reasons why the governors are asking for certain restructuring to happen so that there might be a way where security can be properly handled state by state? Hello? Yes. Can you hear me? Yes, I can. See, if you treat this issue of restructuring in isolation, I think you will miss the point. The entire Nigerian system, the entire Nigerian state needs to sit down to rediscourse the basis of our existence, the basis of our togetherness. It is just unfortunate that the security situation has propped up many of these issues. Like the other guest said, some of these topics we are talking about, local government, economy, and the rest of them, they are all enshrined in the constitution. Why is the federal government playing double game? They can even deduct that source. They do not need the permission of the governors to deduct some of these monies, since they are constitutional. So somebody somewhere is not being economical with the truth, and until we all come out to face the fact, look at ourselves eyeball to eyeball and tell ourselves this is the way to go, we will not get it right. Like I said earlier, Governor Ayatollah is telling you what goes from his position now as a state governor. But there is a bigger problem, there is a bigger problem. That is why you have regional agitation. Something is happening. You have South East governors, North East governors, North West governors, and we are talking, where are Nigerian governors? Where are the governors of Nigeria? Where are the governors of Nigerian states? So it means that there is a value, there is an importance, there is a strategic importance of our regions now. That is why you have Southwest governors, they are talking about a majority, South East governors, North Central governors, something is wrong fundamentally with this structure. So we must all come to the drawing board, if we continue to play politics we will not get it right. Great, you just hit the point. This is not the first time we are calling for restructuring, I mean in fact at some point it became a word that was bandied before every serious election across the country. And now again, we are still having that conversation. You asked a very important question, why the federal government is not having this conversation, I mean why the governors are not coming together to seat and have this conversation. The NGF is about to have a meeting and the former president has also spoken on the fact that the NGF needs to come together and clearly think out whatever they want as a solution to the struggles of the country instead of doing it in their different zones. Now you remember that when the southern governors came up with the ban on open grazing and restructuring, the governors in some other regions kicked against it. So really, we throw around that word of unity, there's unity in our diversity. Yes, we have diverse problems but where is the unity when it needs to be found, especially when we need to sit down and have that conversation that you say we all need to have. Why do you think that certain people are not for it? What exactly is responsible for us not wanting to have this restructuring? Yes, let me tell you something. Restructuring means different things to different people. There is political restructuring, there is fiscal restructuring, there is some constitutional restructuring, there is some political arrangement restructuring in this country. And until we all like, you were talking about restructuring during the presidential election, the last election, the party spoke so much about restructuring. At that time, it was strategic to evoke calculation because it wanted to be president of Nigeria. When you go to the north and you talk about restructuring, for them, it looks like you want them to reduce their hold on power. If you go to the south and they are telling you about restructuring, they want to have more bite at the pie. So restructuring means different things to different people, depending on where you are and what you are seeing at a particular time. All right, just hold on because we're running out of time. I'm coming back to you, Babashala. Nigerians really victims of bad leadership or were complicit because this whole conversation, whether it be, and again, Yahya Bello is trying to be politically correct one way or the other, he's trying to be angling for the presidency. But what role do we play in all of this? Because this conversation just exposes the fact that our leaders, he can choose when they want to speak or what issues concern them. What role do we, the people, play in closing because we need to go? OK, I think what the role we need to play is to continue to map pressure on our governors and our leaders, the people representing not at the centre, we need to continue to map pressure on them because they have voted in there to represent our interests, not their home personnel interests, not the institution they are occupying interests. But the people that that institution is working for, we have to map pressure on them. But unfortunately, I've discovered that most of us, we are so timid that we can only talk behind the scenes. We are not ready to face the people that needs to be faced. Most of the time, we prefer to talk on the social media We are not ready to act physically. And when we continue to do this, there is no way the leaders will take us serious. But we acted in October of 2020. Where did that leave us? We acted in October of 2020. That's just the beginning. OK, let me tell you now, the just one we are talking about now in respect of judicial autonomy. I remember in 2016, the Kogi State actually tried to sign the autonomy, but something happened that they were unable to sign. They discovered that signing it will bring more problems to them. The people of the the just one actually took Kogi State government to court. Not until last year, I don't favor the general last year that there was a ruling in favor of the of the Judiciary Council. Now the Kogi State eventually went back to stop that ruling. But what actually happened? The ruling had to go ahead. We have to go. Unfortunately, they're telling me that we have to go. Baba Shala Debu is a political analyst and Jacob A.D. is former chapter chairman of the NUJ in Abuja. Thank you, gentlemen. Unfortunately, time is not our friend. Thank you all for being part of the conversation. We'll see you tomorrow. It's been Plus Politics. I am Mary Anacol.