 Felly wedi cyhoeddwyd, a rwy'n gweithio'n fawr o'r mynd yma'r gael y dyfodol o'r ysgrifennid cymdeithasol yn 2022. Mae'r eitemau ymddwyll yn ystod o'r cymdeithio ymddwyll ar y cyfrifwyr ymddwyll Cymru gyda hynny o'r cyfrifwyr 4. Mae'r gweithio'r cyfrifwyr ymddwyll gyda hynny, a rwy'n gweithio i ymddwyll cyfrifwyr ymddwyll Paul O'Cain, rwy'n gweithio'r I would like to welcome Paul O'Kane MSP, who is the convener of the proposed group to this meeting. Would you like to make an opening statement about the intentions of the CPG, please? Thank you, convener, and good morning to committee. I would like to propose a cross-party group on changing places toilets. The purpose of the cross-party group is to raise awareness of the essential need of accessible toilets for all of Scotland's citizens. I would like to investigate the feasibility of a changing places toilet fund for local authorities and small community groups to access. That would continue the work of former MSP Mary Fee in conjunction with currently serving MSP Jeremy Balfour. Scottish disability charities and Scottish changing place toilet campaigners have been calling on the Scottish Government to recognise that not all Scotland's citizens are treated equally. There is a section of society that cannot access basic human rights and have their needs met. Indeed, adults and children who have a disability are having their toileting needs met, often by lying on toilet floors with no privacy or dignity. That is due to a lack of facilities. That can lead to a host of problems, infection, mental health, health issues, due to not leaving their home and the possibility of hospitalisation in the long run that affects the public purse. As a group, we would like to explore retail and business. With retail and business, how they can change their outlook on disability and how changing their business model could be beneficial to all. We would invite parents, carers, SCN teachers to join our CPG and give testimony of lived experience and what they would like the group to take the Scottish Government on board and consider. We would like to investigate the subjects of tourism, to investigate Scotland being a holiday destination of choice for families with a disability. We would like to focus on building design and the use of our public buildings and spaces in Scotland. We would propose to work with the Royal Incorporation of Architects Scotland to discuss the feasibility of changing designs of what changing places toilets should be and how those toilets can be placed in public buildings. Based on research, we would propose to include changing places toilets standard for buildings across Scotland. We would work collaboratively with Government departments and ministers in that regard. I would appreciate if the committee would consider our application. Thank you very much, Paul. Do any committee members have any questions? There is a contention at the moment that local authorities are having to close many of their public toilets for cost challenges, and particularly I have faced that significantly in the city of Edinburgh. Is that something that would be covered under the remit as well? Through the convener, I thank Ms Webber for that question. I think that that is vitally important. I think that the CPG wants to look at the availability of facilities, because very often we know that families particularly who have children have a disability struggle to access toilets in city centres, in places where they might go for a day out. Spontaneity is not possible for many families because they can have access to the facilities. So it is certainly something that we want to look at with local authorities and others about where the provision exists currently and where there are gaps that could be filled. Thank you. Having read the papers, I did a bit of homework on what change in police facilities will wear a new school bride in my constituency. It was quite alarming to see that there is only one. There is a website for change in police. I wonder if that is something that, as the cross-party group, you will continue to use and promote as well. I find it quite alarming for numerous reasons. I had somebody close to me who had colitis. I needed to ensure that they had proper change in facilities as well. I was not standing there thinking of people who like breastfeeding and whatnot. It was quite undignified from years ago. As for the app, it would be interesting to look at it at a local authority level to see how we can promote that better. Obviously, it is notwithstanding the fact that Sue mentioned the challenges that we have at a local authority budget level. I think that that is vitally important. We have previously had engagement with the UN's guide to provide a lot of information about accessible facilities, including changing places and toilets. We are keen to engage further on that, because I think that it is about acknowledging that we have made some progress. There are facilities available. The Government has agreed to invest more in our public buildings, but it is often for families that it is ensuring that they know what is available and where they can access those facilities. I think that the point is absolutely well made about town centres. People will be able to go back to the point that I made to Ms Webber, because they know that they can plan a day out, whether they want to go to the centre of these co-brides to go shopping or something like that. They have that level of surety that there is going to be a facility for them. The other area that we have looked at and we are hoping to look at is mapping things like service stations, where, if people want to go on holiday and they maybe want to drive to do the North Coast 500 or something, those places that we have on our doorstep in Scotland, that they are able to do that. Holidays are crucial, particularly for families with young children who have life-limiting conditions and disabilities. Certainly, I think that investment in understanding what the map of Scotland looks like currently, being able to get that information out to people and being able to add to that map is crucial. It is certainly something that all the partners who are involved in the CPG would want to take forward. In terms of the criteria to meet a changing places toilet, is it quite robust and difficult? How easy is it to go on and be recognised as a changing places toilet? I think that the problem for many years has been that people perhaps have disabled facilities or have a certain level of facilities that they would view to be a changing places toilet. However, there are very clear set of standards around what a changing places toilet is, which obviously involves space requirements, shrouding facilities, ensuring that you have the size to move around. That is all laid out, and I can provide committee with that information if that would be helpful. Essentially, it is quite a robust set of standards. Part of the challenge is that it can be very cost prohibitive often for organisations, particularly if you were a community organisation that runs a community facility through asset transfer or something like that. To put it in can be quite expensive, so that is why we want to work collaboratively with the Government to try and find a fund that would allow community facilities particularly to do that. I would now like to invite Bob, who is joining us remotely today. Over to you, Bob. Thanks, convener, and I thank Paul O'Kane for bringing this across-parts groups to the committee this morning. I was following the conversation really close to the paper work, and it is quite right to talk about strains in the public parts how we can direct cash most effectively to enhance a network of essential provision, and I think that you make that point very well, and you made the point of tourism also. I am just wondering in terms of corporate Scotland, if you like, in terms of the duties and obligations that some of our private companies—some who are still doing okay in the current climate—may have in terms of working with them in partnership to get them to maybe commit to putting in the kind of provision that changing place toilets would have with share facilities and the like, and to make them publicly available and on that national network. Will there be a relationship, if you like, with the private sector or corporate Scotland in relation to that as well? Thank you. I think that that is ador us for the question. I think it is a very important question, and it is certainly something that the CPG would be keen to engage in. I think that it is Sainsbury's, who are currently doing work on a network of changing places toilets in store. That is certainly something that is of interest to us. Other larger supermarkets are places that are very often well located in terms of where people go and where they might be able to use facilities. I think that we also have to work with in-town and out-of-town shopping centres and other commercial organisations to ensure that they are playing their part, because we know very often that they have the resource to be able to put those facilities in and to ensure that they are serving their customers better. I think that we would want to explore with them, but also with Government, if there is anything further that can be done to persuade, cajole and perhaps compel the corporate world to do that. Thank you, Bob. Just for the record, I noticed that Angela Dully, who is indeed a well-known campaigner—very well-known campaigner in this field—has offered to do the secretarial support for the group. Thank you for coming along today, Paul. We will make a decision on this in the next session, and the clerks will let you know in due course. Thank you, Givina, and thank you to colleagues on committee. The next group that we are going to look at is a proposed CPG on Bangladesh, and I would like to welcome Foisal Choudhury MSP, who is the proposed convener of the proposed group, who is joining us online today. Good morning, Foisal. Would you like to make an opening statement about the proposed CPG? Good morning, convener. Can I thank you very much, convener? I thank committee members for their time this morning, and I am sorry that I did not realise that I could have attended in person. I thought that everything was getting done through the region. The purpose of the cross-party group on Bangladesh is to promote and enhance understanding between Scotland and Bangladesh at a cultural, social, academic, political and economic level. It is our intention to develop contact with the Bangladesh Parliament and other institutions, including the Bangladesh Consulate in Edinburgh and the Embassy in London, to progress such dialogues. It will also be advancing the mutual interests of Scotland and Bangladesh and representing the interests of citizen organisations with the Bangladesh background in Scotland and acting as a forum for the community. From the Bangladesh community, there is keen interest to know about the procedure of the Scottish Parliament, be part of the Scottish democracy and learn what could be used for future elections in Bangladesh. I will be doing this along with our friends in Westminster with all the party group on Bangladesh in working on research and developing a work plan for the growing Bangladesh community in Scotland. The CPG would be a new group focused on Bangladesh and would not overlap any current CPGs. The areas of topics that were discussed at our initial meeting and will form our work plan will include investment, trade, tourism, travel, environment and education. We want to build on the momentum that we have from COP26, where we made history by having the Prime Minister in Parliament. We hear the challenges that the country faces in the threat of climate change. COP26 has shown that we can only deliver genuine changes if we are united together. I know that the UK, Scotland and Bangladesh will work shoulder to shoulder to tackle climate changes. Thank you, convener, and thank you for listening to me. Thank you very much for your voice and it was a great pleasure to welcome the Prime Minister here during the COP26. Do any committee members have any questions? No? Could I just ask? You mentioned the connections with the APPG at Westminster, but this CPG will be distinct and separate from that, won't it, concentrating on the Bangladeshi communities here in Scotland? Rather than just being a subset of the APPG, it will be a self-standing CPG operating on its own? Yes, of course. No, it's just to share their ideas, how they do it over there, just to gain information, but ours is mainly based on Scotland and the community from Scotland. Thank you. I must say that the list of organisations that the proposed CPG has reached out to and want to be involved is testament to the importance of the Bangladeshi community here in Scotland and the widespread understanding among civic Scotland of that understanding. If there are no further questions, I thank you for attending today. The decision on the CPG will be made at the next agenda item and the clerks will be in touch after the meeting, but thank you for attending today, Foisal. Thank you very much, convener, and thank you very much, Tim. I hope to see you soon. I would now like to invite the next proposed CPG, which is on migration, and I would like to welcome Paul Sweeney MSP, who is the proposed convener of this new group to the meeting. Good morning, Paul. I give you an opportunity to take your seat. Would you like to make an opening statement about the intentions of this CPG? Thank you very much, convener, for inviting me to address the committee this morning. The proposed cross-party group on migration is quite a wide-ranging forum for stakeholders, policy makers and those with lived experience to discuss any matters arising in relation to migrants, refugees or those seeking asylum in Scotland. Whilst immigration policy is a reserved matter to the House of Commons, the cross-party group will engage, consider and raise awareness of ways in which we can make an impact on issues regarding immigration and migration, asylum and refugees in Scotland because there are a number of important interfaces with the Scottish Parliament's competences as well as with local government colleagues. Therefore, having an integrated approach is vital to improve quality of life for people affected by a current policy. That is definitely something that is well established as a public interest. There is not currently a CPG focusing on this area in the Holyrood despite thousands of people in Scotland being impacted by those issues. The creation of the cross-party group would be particularly beneficial, given recent significant and relevant events taking place such as the passage of the nationality and borders bill by the UK Parliament and the on-going humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan. Do any of the committee members have any questions for Paul about the proposed CPG? I would like to ask Mr Sweeney what are the key measures of success. The key measures of success are to effectively expedite policy ideas that key stakeholder groups, particularly in Glasgow, have been advocating. The vast majority of almost all asylum seekers in Scotland are resident in the Glasgow City Council area because it is the only city or the only council area in Scotland that participates in the dispersal programme. However, there are refugee communities and resettlement programmes for the refugee programme that are dispersed around Scotland. There are a number of concerns that have been raised by key stakeholder groups, particularly the Maryhill integration network, who have been especially instrumental in helping to establish the cross-party group and issues around exclusion from housing issues, transport issues and social exclusion. Obviously, we had the tragedy with the parking disaster in Glasgow last summer of 2020. It is important to bring together the forum to allow us to channel frustrations and issues where, potentially, the Scottish Government can help to ameliorate some of the concerns that people are experiencing on the ground. It is largely in a humanitarian sense that it does not necessarily interfere with immigration policy or with no recourse to public funds, which is a potential condition on social security support. On those measures, for example, one suggestion has been extending concession of travel to asylum seekers, which would be within the gift of the Scottish Government. Ideas like that, for example, could be promoted by the cross-party group. I ask about any overlap with the Petitions Committee. Is the intention that the CPG identifies issues and then we will move towards petitions? It has not been explicitly discussed thus far, but it is a helpful suggestion. I can envisage that as a measure. There is an effort to try and engage with stakeholders, perhaps directly with ministers, perhaps directly with NGOs and various other organisations, just to try and pull understanding and share common practice. There is quite a wide range of organisations supporting the CPG. I have listed them, but I can go through them. Mary Ellen's integration network, The Voices Network, Safe in Scotland, British Red Cross, UNESCO, Scottish DT&E visitors, particularly in relation to Dungavel, just right Scotland, Positive Action and Housing, Migration Policy Scotland and Refugees for Justice, Governing Community Project. There is quite a rich ecosystem out there, but often people are operating in silos and are kind of disjointed. Part of the function of the CPG will help to act as a sounding board so that we can share experiences rally around common themes such as housing, transport, income, deprivation poverty, etc., and hopefully pull together actions that we can share objectives on, and then push them into the Government to ask if we can get improvements or measures to address them. Yes, thank you, convener, and thank you to Paul Speedy for taking this cross-party group to the committee this morning. I should, of course, declare an interest. It was a pleasure to go on to the first meeting of the proposed cross-party group with Paul and others, and should that group be successful and been established, I would be the deputy convener of that cross-party group, so I should declare that interest. If I take from that convener that I may have a good will towards the committee agreeing to recognise that cross-party group, I would just make one observation, and that is that immigration is absolutely a reserve matter, but caring for those who have chosen to make their life in Scotland, whether they are in flay violence or persecution, if another reason they have come to our shores, of course, is not a reserve matter. It is the core business of representing our constituents, irrespective of where they came from or how long they have been in Scotland, and I think that this cross-party group will go some way to making sure that our Parliament can fulfil that important role. Thank you for that, Bob, in the indication of your interest in this matter. Although not a formal requirement under any of the rules, I am sure that you will extend the usual practice of stepping out in respect of the discussion with regard to this CPG, but we very much note your interest, and I saw both Paul and your eyes worrying at the idea of a petition. Collette, I think that you have a question. Thanks Paul, I very much welcome this CPG. Just recently there has been several issues arising within East Kilbride in terms of accommodation and even their status in terms of whether they are asylum seekers or refugees. It was interesting to find that out, but what I found alarming, and I am just wondering if it is something that will come up in terms of within the CPG, is that despite the fact that they have got hotel accommodation, which is very basic, they only get £8 per week. The income allowance that is provided to those who are in the asylum process is very meager indeed. So, if you are in bed and breakfast accommodation, you are only getting £1 a day. If you are in a flat accommodation, it is slightly more than that. It is about £7 a day. You can imagine even on that basis that it is very well below even baseline social security that a citizen would be entitled to. There are acute poverty and deprivation issues. The reason for the BNB is because the housing provider, which is a contract between the Home Office and a private sector operator called Mears Group, is obliged to provide accommodation for those in the asylum system. Because of the pressures on the system, they are not able to acquire enough housing units from RSLs and registered social landlords and private providers to put everyone in flats. They are now putting people into hotels to backfill for the demand, but the problem is that there are significant welfare problems. As I mentioned, the park in disaster emanated from people who were suffering acute mental health problems, trauma, being corralled into these kind of hotels. The catering, for example, was not culturally appropriate, so they were serving food that they could not digest, getting a cooked breakfast if you are from sub-Saharan Africa is not something that you can eat. Having an opportunity to provide feedback from stakeholders on the ground to say to the housing provider, for example, that is a really big problem and we really need a grip on that, could help to perhaps improve the situation at the margins. It is these little things that could potentially solve a lot of bigger problems that could potentially cause risk to life given the high-pressure situation that often people who have fled from severe disastrous situations can experience. For all those reasons, it is an important CPG to offer that kind of sounding board within the Parliament and to give more rapid access to ministers to the sources of raising things in the chamber, for example. It will be worthwhile in that sense. No, thank you. That is very welcome indeed. Thank you. I suppose that, just for the purpose of clarification, the CPG is described—well, it is going to be called the migration CPG. We have talked a lot about asylum and refugee status. Is the intention to look at the broader, in due course, look at the broader migratory pressures and challenges that people might face coming to Scotland? Thank you. That is a very important point. I think that there is a ability to find in a broader sense, because a lot of those have important interfaces. For example, access to student opportunities. There is a wider issue around EU migration and the future status of EU citizens in Scotland and the UK. There are broader demographic challenges in Scotland around an ageing population base and a narrowing tax base. Having a larger working-age population is an important function of a sustainable economy. Therefore, we need to have a greater infusion of working-age people. That is all going to be part of that discussion. In trying to frame the whole issue of migration in a less confrontational way, in a bit more of a sensible, rational fashion, that would be a broader idea about it. I think that the Secretary of State, Mary Ellen De Gray, is highly engaged with asylum seekers, colours the initial objectives of the CPG, but it can evolve. That is why we have left it looser. No, thank you for that clarification. Thank you for putting on the record from Mary Hill integration network, who has offered the Secretary of that. Can I thank you for attending today, Paul? The committee will consider whether to approve the application for recognition in the next agenda item, and the clerks will inform you in due course of the outcome. Can I thank you for that? That is great. Thank you, convener, and thanks to everyone for your consideration. Thank you. We will now be a short suspension of why we change witnesses. Can I welcome people back, and can I welcome Jeremy Balfour, who joins us today for the proposed CPG on older people, age and ageing, which I will quote very carefully? Can I invite Jeremy Balfour MSP, who is the proposed convener, to make a statement about the intentions of the group? Good morning, convener, and good morning, colleagues. Convener, this is a slightly different from the two previous ones, is that this cross-party group, in fact, was the very first cross-party group to be established for the famous Scottish Parliament back in 2000. Unfortunately, just due to administration and due to Sandra White's not standing, we just were a bit slow off the mark in getting our ducks lined up. However, we have now got the ducks lined up, and we are ready to go. I'm very keen to go. Without being too rude to most of us, this group applies to us, as Age Scotland now defines old as 50-plus. Not you, no, not well. I'm not asking anyone to declare an interest on that, but, obviously, this is a big issue. We are an ageing population, and there are many challenges that older people face. Particularly over the last two years, we have seen the challenge of isolation, we have seen the challenge of getting back into employment, and we have seen the whole issue of care at home. Those are, without prejudging, our agenda and some of the issues that we will be looking at over the next coming months. We have already decided, if we are allowed to go ahead by the committee this morning, that the first one that we will be doing is trying to get as much information as we can on the experience of the past two years, so that, as a cross-party group, we can feed that in to the public inquiry that will be taking place. It will give insight across the whole of Scotland, both from organisations but also individuals. Beyond that, we will be looking at other issues. We will be able to continue and happy to take any questions from you or other colleagues. Thank you very much for that, Jeremy. Also for pointing out the pre-existence of this CPG and your explanation with regard to the administrative areas. I thank you for the steps that you have taken today in the reappliance for it to be re-recognised. Thank you for that. Do any of the committee have any questions? Sue, over to you. Just a quick one. Thank you, Jeremy Balfour. There are a lot of stakeholders on your list, and I'm just wondering how you foresee managing that. It does affect all the sorts of society. Believe it or not, that's a cow down list. The list was about double that size, but what we did before we proceeded was that we emailed everybody that had been part of the group in the previous Parliament, and about half of them had either moved on or were no longer involved. It is a very large group. It's an interesting one. We had a cross-party group on disability on Tuesday, and it was very interesting that almost everybody wanted to do it by Zoom, and I think that makes a massive difference. Rather than having to come here as it used to be, people can now log in if they're in Benes, Aberdeen or wherever. I think that that will probably be the model that we look at going forward, at least for the majority of our meetings, so that it does mean that people can take part. We do have an official smaller working group that meets to help set the agenda, which is then obviously then fed into the wider group to get their approval for it, because it is a large group. For me, it's positive because there's such a diversity. If you go from 50 to 100 plus, that's a lot of different interests. Some people are working, some people have retired, etc. It is a large group, but I have to say in the previous Parliament when we used to meet here, we had to take the largest committee room, because it used to be jam-packed. We do hope to have some face-to-face meetings as well. Thank you, convener. That's great. Thank you for that, Sue. Just as a point of clarification, I note that Christine Ryder, from outside the box, who is a facilitating charity, as my understanding, has offered secretarial support, but they're not listed as one of the non-MSP members of the group. Is that because they're just offering the secretarial support and the facilitation, rather than contributing to content of the CP? No, that's right. They're going to be offering the secretarial work, but obviously we will be there, but it's a slightly different relationship that they also are quite new to us, and so I think they are just wanting to put their feet into the water, and they may well actually become members quite quickly, but I think at the moment that's the relationship that we're looking at. That's excellent. Thank you for clarifying that. Thank you for coming along this morning. As I say, we'll take the decision and the next agenda item, and the clerks will be in touch in due course with that decision, but can I thank you for coming along this morning? Thank you. We can now move to agenda item two, when it is for the committee to consider whether to accord recognition to the proposed cross-party groups for Bangladesh, for changing places toilets, for migration, and for older people age and aging. I would now like the committee, and I'd like to invite the committee, if there are any questions or comments that you'd like to make before I formally put the proposal to us. Anyone? No? Excellent. Then our members agreed to accord recognition to the proposed cross-party groups on Bangladesh, changing places toilets, migration, and older people age and aging. We are in agreement with that, and at that point can I close the meeting and thank everyone for their attendance today.