 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. Today we have with us Meena Raman from Third World Network to discuss the climate change negotiations. Meena, good to have you with us. Very happy to be here. The climate change negotiations seem to be completely deadlocked, the way it's looking, the pledges that are being made by the developed countries who are supposed to have cut some significant amounts by 2012, haven't done their job. They're not willing to make further commitments and the commitments they're making are so weak. There's really no chance of saving the globe for a two degree rise. Where do you think the current negotiations are going? Well, you have said it, you said it was deadlocked. Unfortunately, it's looking very bleak for those of us who were in Cancun and even prior to Cancun, if you remember the Copenhagen process where the accord, the 26 prime ministers, the heads of states who were convened in that small room, they did not succeed in adopting the Copenhagen Accord but unfortunately, Cancun appeared to have legitimized the Copenhagen Accord. And for those of us who have watched that process, we are witnessing a moment of very bleak future in the climate negotiations. When the convention was mooted in 1992 and ratified subsequently and then we had the Kyoto Protocol born, the Kyoto Protocol was a son or a daughter of the convention and it was supposed to rectify the implementation deficit in relation to the mitigation aspect of the climate negotiations because the developed countries were doing very little. So the Kyoto Protocol was actually a very key legally binding agreement and that first commitment period which was negotiated which began from 2008, expires in 2012. So one of the outcomes of Bali which was very key is the negotiation of the second commitment period of the Kyoto Protocol and if you recall, the first commitment period was only about 5% emission reductions by 1990 for NX-1 countries. Now given the intergovernmental pattern of climate change and the findings and there was this whole euphoria if you remember that climate change was the most important phenomenon and that the world had to come together which led to Copenhagen, the mood at that particular time was recognizing that the developed world had to do much, much more through legally binding cuts of a kind which would ensure that developing countries would then have the atmospheric space to undertake the cuts that they need also to ensure that they had the finance and technology but if the developed countries did not do what was historically responsible to do then the developing world would not have a chance in terms of sustainable development. So the mood in Bali was that the second commitment period of Kyoto was so key but in Cancun what had happened was nearly a killing of the Kyoto Protocol and by all conversations the political agenda was very clear from the developed world. We are not going to stick to Kyoto, we are going to kill this legally binding treaty and replace it with a pledge system where it's not based on science, not based on equity, not based on the top-down legally binding setting of emission reduction cuts that have to be done but more like you are a gentleman, I am a gentle woman, you decide what you want to do which is politically feasible, I decide what's politically feasible and then we will do and then we will pledge and then we will review. So effectively what is coming out, let's do what we are willing to do and that if it doesn't save the climate just too bad seems to be the scenario of building up the Durban. So can we take it the way the Durban is shaping up is really putting the seal on finishing up the Kyoto Protocol as it stands unless there is a major reversal of what we are seeing Absolutely and that would really mean that unless again this pledge and review is stopped or reviewed and changed within a certain period there is really no chance of meeting the 2 degree centigrade which is what people are talking about. Yeah well just for the record even many of us in civil society not even happy with the 2 degree world because what we say is a safer limit is really 1.5 but even with the pledges on the table that there are there and the unraveling of the Kyoto Protocol and replacing it with this very weak regime and that if that political mandate is got in Durban then we are doomed for disaster. So I think what actually has happened since there seems to be a fight back the group of developing countries that negotiate under the 377 China at least in Bonn in June made it very clear that the Kyoto Protocol is key that for Durban a second commitment period of the Kyoto Protocol is key otherwise there would be no negotiations further now it remains to be seen how strong that unity is and the other question is what the pledges would be because even in the Kyoto Protocol second commitment period if the pledges are going to be very low then we are in a hard time. Another way of looking at it is the political scenario the economic crisis in the west developing countries means there is no appetite today for doing anything on the climate also it seems there is a lot of climate skeptics lot of ground the climate skeptics have gained in particularly the United States regarding climate change itself do you think that it is politically it's becoming much more difficult to force such climate change negotiations particularly given the mood in the developed countries A and B do you think there is a possibility of aligning the crisis solution to climate change initiatives like talking about green jobs green economy and so on I think it's really a question that has to be asked of civil society around the world I think in relation to political masters I think if we leave it to the politicians we will not get anywhere I think what needs to be felt is a sense of outrage and as we move towards Durban I think there is a civil society particularly African civil society movements social movements have been gathering and I think not many of us are hopeful about what will happen in Durban but what we want to do is to at least use that opportunity to expose the politicians particularly the United States what we have been saying is leave the US out that if Europe could do a deal with the developing world and if the Europeans have constantly put themselves out as a climate champion we never expected that of the United States but if the European civil society allows its politicians to hide behind the United States then we have trouble in our hands so for those of us who are in the climate justice movement Durban is another touchstone I mean it's not the end of the world this struggle, the climate justice fight goes on but I do think that what we cannot let happen for Kyoto to die to have the Pledge and Review world but what we do need to do is to really up the ante in terms of huge momentum of mobilization we don't expect anything from the US but if we can keep the damage of the US contain the US and say we don't expect you to leave none of us expected them to leave and Obama came in there would be a change but many of us saw Bush better than Obama simply because you knew you could get help from Bush and therefore you did not want I mean you didn't expect the United States to leave That's a very interesting proposition that if Europe can detach itself from the United States in the climate change negotiations it's never really happened except for the period that US was out of the climate change negotiations completely but the issue that Europe today places is also the kind of austerity measures being forced on them and therefore the crisis of the European economy particularly what we see in Greece what we see in Spain what we are likely to see if we are not already seeing in Italy now unless we can really couple the anger of the people against neoliberal economics to the issue of climate unless we can bring these two issues together politically it seems to be very difficult to shake otherwise we would be really setting the bet cross purposes because people will say we need money for jobs, we have no money for now climate now that is I think also the challenge politically for all of us I think that those of us who are in this fight don't see the disconnect I mean we see this as a paradigm fight the climate crisis, the social crisis the environmental crisis the economic crisis all as one embedded in a systemic need for change and that's why many of us say systemic change not climate change I do think that we come at it from different angles so I think this is the moment not just for reform well much more than for transformation in the way we do business in the way we organize in the way we produce in the way we consume all of which can have positive outcomes so in a sense it presents a lot of opportunity because it has shown that the market has failed you can't rely on the corporate agenda globalization has really taken us all I mean this is all a cause what we see is a response both in terms of environment crisis social crisis, environmental crisis and economic crisis so we see that clearly so for us it's not a disconnect I mean talking about consumption and lifestyle I mean Gandhi and you know I don't I mean I come from Malaysia and I'm inspired by Mr Gandhi I'm not sure how many are but in the sense that the Gandhian solution for Europe if you ask people to go back to the Gandhian solutions in that sense even I would have some serious reservations on that that you're really asking people to de-industrialize to de-urbanize issue really is that it is important for us to present alternatives which are meaningful both in climate terms and societal terms to really get the climate change negotiations moving on No absolutely I think for those people who are in the negotiation see it from a very technological fix it okay we can use geoengineering or we can use this that's not enough and I do think that Yeah the geoengineering is a bit of a red herring because obviously it's far more dangerous than what it will fix Exactly and I don't think any serious scientific group is actually proposing geoengineering so at the moment it's really an outlier even in all these discussions but the real issue is that what we have seen is the economic crisis having partially derailed the climate movement in the west and unless we really bring these two together the people on the streets fighting the kind of economic recession they are seeing also demanding climate change and maybe climate jobs unless we do that we are going to really have a difficult political time convincing the developed countries to come on board Yeah I think that's one of it but the other thing that is helping us unfortunately is the climate itself I mean you can't ignore the fact that the extreme weather events have taken a toll on all our countries so while you can temporarily forget and say you know we're not feeling the impact that also is exacerbating the crisis that is there so I do think that this is something that we constantly have to have to come together and the challenge is phenomenal I do think that it is huge That's the other part the northern countries tend to think climate warming very good for them and even if it's bad for the rest of the world but what they forget is the as you said the extreme weather events which unfortunately or fortunately not sparing them either Thank you Meena I'm sure on climate change negotiations we'll get back to you again as it progresses Thanks You're very welcome