 I'm Joshua Cooper, and welcome to Cooper Union. What's happening with human rights around our world on Think Tech Live, broadcasting from our downtown studio in Honolulu, Hawaii, in Moana, New York. Today, we're looking at effective remedy to ensure equality. Article eight to article 28. More courts, less reports, and justice now. It's an honor to be joined by three amazing advocates or organizing a legal pact to make sure that the world will be able to realize their rights in our lifetime for the future. Kurt, thank you so much for joining and what influenced you and really, in a way, inspired you to get involved in this important issue? And also, why is this issue so important in today's human rights world? Well, Joshua, thank you. It's good to be here. And I feel that you have a chance to share your thinking about making this important as an enforcement. And that's really when you talk about remedies you're talking about ability to stand in front of the judge and ask her for an order and actually get an order. And because I think rights are fine to talk about but unless you can go in and enforce them, I really question to what degree they exist. And I don't, I want to spend more time today thinking ahead rather than looking back. I just want to mention one thing about looking back. And that's, there was a famous, he was a law professor named Hirsch Lauterpocht at the time of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and it's signing in 1948, right? So 75 years ago, we're having the 75th anniversary. And at that time, he was opposed to it. And he said the reason he was opposed is because he was giving the appearance that there was enforcement when there wasn't. And at the time, I think that people felt there will be later and that's why you have article 28 and that convinced him enough to say, okay, okay, but here we are. So when you ask me why this is important, why I'm glad to be here, it's because I think he was right to be skeptical about enforcement and to be concerned that the UGHR would be written as the declaration but not enforceable. And so that's what we're all about. That's where the legal path to the future is all about enforcement. And it's the same thing with the environment. They have environmental rights, they have to be enforceable, not just things that we claim. So that's the general thread from the past to the present and that's what drives me is that I believe lawyers should be able to stand up in court and get orders. I remember also the impact of Frank Newman and his work that he was doing in California. Can you share a bit about that? Have that inspired you as well? Well, Frank was the dean at the Berkeley Law School and he was a professor who I studied under and a great leader in the field of human rights. And after I left Berkeley and I went and I was with a big firm and then I was working on civil rights. It's been a thread throughout and I worked on the Russian Constitution and I go back ways. And Frank said, hey, why don't you come back, get an advanced degree. I want you to figure out with me how to make rights juridical. And thank you for asking that question, Joshua, cause it's nice for me to share this with Anna and Lauren because the three of us, we all share this enforcement and this word juridical to Frank meant that you could, it was that threshold where you got to stand in front of a judge and ask for an order. That's where, and that's what he saw as the weakness even though he's a great leader as you know well in the field of human rights. And you go back to Frank too. So yeah, thank you for asking about him. And I don't mind saying, dedicating at least a major portion of this to Frank and let's make rights juridical. Thank you so much Kirk. Anna, can you share with us what first inspired you to get involved in this important issue and in a way what you see why it's the most important imminent issue? Well, I was motivated by meeting firstly these incredible people. We met at a conference and we came together based around a shared feeling that there was incredible commitment amongst many, many, many people but not the resources and means in order to actualize these aims. And we started to talk and it was very interesting for me that we all came from such different perspectives but we're all harboring towards the same point which was that we want to see something be done. My background is in academics and advocacy around environmental justice, specifically ecocide law and I'm very motivated by the judicial enforcement argument because I've seen personally and understood personally the detriment that comes when we have voluntary standards. I mean, voluntary standards means voluntary compliance and there needs to be a legal reform that can reflect this reality as well as accounting for the fact that the problems we're seeing today are grand and multi-connected and there needs to be a coalescing of law and this is what the legal pact is really about just ensuring that there is this conversation around judicially enforceable law and that any kind of discussion of, for example, renewal of the social charter as the Secretary General is proposing, which is timely but it's also essential that if we're having this conversation we reflect on what that really means and that to us is enforceable law and this is enforceable law that can be applied in all countries and we hope that with our initiative we can bring together people to have these conversations and I'm inspired by that. So thank you for asking. Thank you so much for bringing up that important aspect of the social contract and renewing that commitment that maybe has not been thought of enough and now we move to Lauren. Lauren, what first inspired you to get involved in this important human rights issue and how do you see it as one of the most imminent important issues that humanity must face? Yeah, thank you. So for me, I was coming to this conference from a very different perspective from Anna and Kirk. I had been working in kind of understanding how people interact with the UN and making their work more accessible as I've been working with an organization called Peace Child International and I attended this conference kind of perhaps not with such a strong understanding of why the rule of law was so important but I think the more that I spoke with Anna and Kirk the more I realized that actually all of our goals occurred kind of in parallel. So for me coming at things from more of like a development perspective I sort of became very aware that the kind of social change we're going through at the moment needs to be upheld by enforceable rights. We can't have a significant progress occur in things like space and AI without actually understanding what impact that has on our rights. So for me that's kind of where I came at it from and I think that it's kind of always summed up by our understanding of more courts and peer reports. So this is something that we say a lot because we've gotten to a point now where the UN and other big institutions have done a fantastic job of giving us an understanding of where we're at with the problem. We know that there are big issues that need to be tackled. We have a comprehensive understanding and data and research on this. So for us now it's time to turn towards a more solution-led focus and for us the legal pact provides an overarching focus on solutions by linking together different organizations, people, businesses and governments. Oh, it's very important. And we definitely have partnered and worked with many solutionaries to change the way things are moving to focus on solidarity and sustainability for all. So I really appreciate that perspective. And the Universal Declaration of Human Rights guarantees people around the world the right to remedy with the National Tribunal and to guarantee the gap is addressed through emerging legal campaigns for ecocide-important international human rights law systems. Article eight recognizes everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent National Tribunal for acts violating the fundamental rights granted by the Constitution or law. So Kirk, can you share with me a bit what are some of the most important initiatives or the creative champions that are making sure that article eight is being achieved and realized? Well, I think the breakthrough that's occurring Joshua is when you look at article eight here in the UDHR, it's talking about to have an effective remedy in the competent courts and national courts. And in order to do that, I had mentioned to you how I was just in Poland. So, and I was in Poland and I'm in a Polish court but I'm using the European law. Is it just two weeks ago? In order to have that kind of domestic enforcement of rights. And that's where there's a big leap. You take ecocide, for example, it really, you can't just have environmental protection at the domestic level in the domestic courts in order to have true protection within those courts. You need to have a review process. So you, for environment, you need to have a review at the regional level and you need to have a review at the ICC. And by having that whole continuum, I think that's when you really secure the intent of article eight in the UDHR. Really important. I know that the regional mechanisms are so valuable. We just had an event two weeks ago where we actually had representatives from the European court, Inter-American court and the African court sharing along with the ASEAN commission of where we're at with regional mechanisms and how those are valuable to address one of those gaps. Can you share with us a bit about the champions really around ecocide and how that was really born and where we're at today in this important initiative? Well, I've been volunteering and working with Stop Ecocide International for the last year. And it's been revolutionary for me. Ecocide law I think is a real break from our existing system. And the environmental problem is incredibly complicated because it's battling with a legal system which is entirely set against it. Entire understanding of environmental issues is through an anthropocentric framing. And this makes it very difficult for us to be able to contextualize the idea that we need to be able to protect the environment in and of itself. So ecocide law has really been championing many things. And I'm particularly interested by this legal movement because it's not representing any kind of derogation from existing law. It's actually serving as a tool to make enforceable that which already exists. I mean, there's no shortage of environmental law all over the world, but in multiple jurisdictions there's frustration because it's not being enforced and people feel this injustice and we're seeing this play out in multiple contexts. I mean, whether it's geographical proximity to particular parts of the globe or from the effects of armed conflict, the environment's being destroyed on a daily basis and we simply don't have the legal measures in place. And ecocide law is representing a break from this and it's proving very attractive to lots of different stakeholders simply because it's well recognized that law is there to protect us. And for me, I feel that we're in a moment where lots of people have lost touch with politics and law and they forget that there are institutions there to protect them and what we need to do is enforce them. And this is the conversation that we're trying to promote with the legal pact. And as Lauren mentioned, our slogan more courts and fewer reports and it's simplistic, but it's true. They're 90% of the sustainable development goals, for example, depend on effective judicial enforcement. And if we don't have a right to law itself, our human rights and environmental rights are ultimately meaningless. So I think that there's really incredible movements all over the world that are championing these ideas. And what we hope is to be able to bring them together and make sure that something actually does change because the time is right, yeah. Thank you. You were actually just yesterday at the Hawaii Green Growth Islands 2030 annual summit where all the members from across Hawaii may come together to look at these important issues. And I was actually moderating the 17 rooms focusing on SDG 16. So understand entirely what you're explaining. And it's so great as we shift to the aspect of peace child international because peace child has a role here in Hawaii. They were used to do the World Youth Congress here and that's where it first took place. And then we know that it's important definitely for youth to be involved. Can you share with us a bit about which NGOs have really been negotiating or championing this cause that you're sharing Lauren and explain that more about why this is such an important human rights issue today? Yeah, absolutely. So the first thing that I'll highlight is C4UN. So that's actually, we met working at their Global Futures Forum on putting together what's called the People's Pact for the future. So the legal pact has actually started off as an add-on to this. And so for us, this is really important and kind of reflects the ethos of what we're doing because for me, C4UN represents a shift towards understanding that we need a broad civil society perspective. On these issues, everyone comes from a different angle and it's so important that when we're thinking about international law, people internationally are represented in the decisions that are made because we've seen for a long time the UN and other institutions be criticized for having what we call a democratic deficit. And so the fact that the People's Pact was put together by over 2,000 different civil society participants is a monumental achievement that I think goes to represent the shift that we need in human rights and in law, that we need everyone to be represented and that's why for us it's so important that things are made accessible. So there are lots of organizations that are working on making participation and the rule of law more accessible and more inclusive. But yeah, overall I would just, I'd like to highlight the fact that I think as an organization, we take this ethos really into everything that we do. We want to make sure that it's inclusive. And I think for me that looks like someone who personally doesn't have a very strong legal background being able to understand that fundamentally this comes down to the need to have enforceable rights to protect people on planet. And for me, that's why it's so important that we work alongside these other NGOs that are doing this in order to get that diverse perspective that really represents a shift that not only a small portion of people need but that actually represents the needs of everyone affected by these shifts. At some point of really putting the unity into global community and coordinating those campaigns, I couldn't agree more. And as we look at what is going on, the futures form was so significant. And of course it was really providing a foundation for the upcoming UN summit of the future. And we're very pleased that we're able to ensure that that didn't come about at the same time as SDG summit and that we could have more time to develop. And of course it's crucial to include indigenous perspectives as the Haudenosaunee had seven generations as they made each law to see where it would work. And of course Hawaii with the Kumulipo since time immemorial. Kirk, the UDHR outlines opportunities for a new way forward for a world. And UDHR article eight and 29 sort of serves as a valuable vision rooted in rule of law with basic rights and fundamental freedoms. Can you share a bit the future or your vision for these important articles and how we can actualize them in our lives? Well, I'm glad that you mentioned the summit of the future because I think we are through the legal pact actualizing those articles in the UDHR. And to follow up on what Lauren was saying we're doing it in a way with a word that I think Anna first coined but it really it stands for what we do. And that's linkage. So the intent was that it would be in the future there would be these documents that would come about that would create enforcement so that these rights would become forceful. And to do that, there needs to be linkage. There really does need to be support within the NGO community, business community, and just individuals of the students that you may have there in Hawaii elsewhere. So I think that's one of the most important things that we can do and that we can offer to the summit and to this progress. It's the linkage to give place where everyone can come. And with the focus of that linkage on law so that we make sure that in the narrative for the summit of the future that law has a central place then that would be the extension of those two articles that you talk about in the UDHR. And I really appreciate your points talking about the emergence of environmental rights. We can see that happening. We see the rights of nature. We see in Aotearoa with Wanganui with the river having rights. Also, the most recent aspects of the right to a clean and healthy and sustainable environment in the UN General Assembly and the UN Human Rights Council. And also some of the exciting emerging work around the fossil fuel nonproforation treaty. Can you share with us what you see as the vision for the future of these important rights? I see the vision being equitable. I see an injection of the eco-centric ideas into our relationship with the planet. I mean, I mentioned earlier that people are disillusioned from law and politics but we're also disillusioned from the planet itself. And I see there needs to be a very deep shift in our understandings of how we apply law not only how we write it. And so my ideal vision would be seeing eco-side law implemented as the fifth crime against peace in the Rome Statue of the International Criminal Court setting a clear standard that we consider mass harm against nature morally prohibited wrong of the highest order in fact. And that this norm can spread and guide other legal areas and guide ultimately all of business. I see that we move from an understanding of planet as something there to provide only for us and moving more towards a perspective where we realize we're in a reciprocal relationship and we have a duty to protect our planet Earth and outer space. And this is what we're looking to do with the legal pact and call together people that understand and believe in this too. And so that would be what I would see for the future and perhaps optimistic, but I like to do that so. Excellent. Those are all both important and I really connect with it as well because here in Hawaii, as we're looking at the important place of where we are at this time with the most recent horrible wildfires that took place on Maui and Lahaina, but also what's really crucial is we look at what is essential and the point there is not looking at what people call a stewardship but really more of a servanship that we must serve and take care of the Aina. If we take care of the land, it takes care of us. It's one thing people really from an island perspective understand. So it's letting everyone on island Earth have that understanding of what you're sharing about a eco-centric perspective and it's so valuable as we move forward to prevent future harms and many of the catastrophes that we don't want everyone to face as if we are not able to attain that 1.5 degrees. Going over to the important issue, Lauren, can you share with us your vision of why and what we can accomplish in those ways that we can move forward to guarantee human rights law at all levels? Yeah, so just to follow on from what Ana was saying, I mean, when we look historically at large shifts in overall social opinions, we can look to things like apartheid and abortion and we understand that there has been a shift in the law and in the rights legally and then socially alongside that. And I think that from my perspective, this is something that when it comes to environment specifically is absolutely fundamental. We know that there's an issue, like I've said before, we have a large understanding about I think it's going to take some level of enforceable rights like Ana's spoken about to really cement that position within our society's understanding of priorities. I think that like Ana said, we've become disillusioned from the environment and I think this is actually the case when it comes to all rights. The globalization process has seen us become closer and closer but yet never further apart in terms of our fundamental priorities. And so I think that what we aim to do to highlight the need for enforceable rights really highlights the need for unity overall and the process that ensures that we're working together on this and with the understanding that we want to do this to support people in Hawaii, in indigenous groups in the Amazon, in the UK, you know, in America where these guys are at the moment. So it's an understanding that we're doing this not just for one individual group but in order to protect the rights for people on planet everywhere. Thank you so much. And it really reminds me of a powerful quote by a professor and also former Special Operateur against racism, Professor Tendaya Achumi. She said, if we're fighting for the kind of world we want to live in, the law is at the center of that fight and as a site of contestation we cannot see. So it's great that you're working in this space, that you're committing yourselves to that. And Article 8 really is a right to remedy and it's achieved through legal campaigns and the legal pact for the future supports the drafting and implementation of international legal architecture for enforceable human environmental rights in the courts of all countries and even creating courts that do exist that need to be amended to recognize the world we live in and also coming up with new courts as well. So in our final thoughts, Kirk, are there any final points you'd like to share? Joshua, as I listened to you, it's inspiring because I know that you've been working for the strengthening and extension of courts for many years and you've been out of the forefront. And so thank you for that because what we're seeing is that there are a lot of people around the world now that share what you have been working on and legal pact is among that. So thank you for your time and this opportunity to be here. Thank you so much, Anna. Coming to you one more time because I know that really if we look at what the issue is that it was not included 75 years ago at the UDHR, people could not have conceptualized where we would be in the state of our planet and what's happening to our island earth. Can you share a bit about some final points that you think must be included as we look at drafting, determining and delivering a better future for all humanity? Yes, we need to consider that there's no human rights without a planet to live on and the environment is at the center of all of our human rights. And if we miss this incredibly fundamental component and continue to believe that we can chase profit at all costs, ultimately there'll be no need for human rights. So I think that it's really important we understand that the environment is on, the protection of the environment is on power and importance as the protection of our own human rights. And we need to move forward to a position where we consider the two together and we provide that safety for present and future generations, which we all have a right to. Thank you. Yes, the right to environment is of paramount importance as we look at the world we live in. And we know that as we're entering usually the UN Framework Commission on Climate Change and the Conference of Parties, how it is important that there is the Kyoto Protocol, the Paris Agreement, but not moving fast enough not understanding that fierce sense of urgency that people are facing into value in Kiribati and to know that we must unite and share that voice that you're sharing to make sure that the world understands. It's pretty simple. If you don't think, if you're only focusing as you talked about, like there is no jobs on planet, on planet, on a dead planet, there is no future. It's so true. I mean, if you don't think environment's important, try holding your breath, see how long it lasts. Can't be too long. We all know we need water with only a couple of days or it impacts our whole body. And of course we all know how all this is connected. So we thank you so much. And our final thoughts from Lauren, can you share with us a bit of what and why you put all of your heart and soul into these important aspects of making sure that there's more courts and fewer reports? Yeah, I mean, it's interesting that you mentioned the connectivity there because for us, this is what is absolutely at the center. We see the legal parts not necessarily as its own individual entity, but as something that provides a connection for all of us, we believe massively that everyone out there who's working on this right now is doing so in such an incredible way. But we believe that our actions are stronger together and that we want to provide a platform which connects like-minded individuals to really highlight the need for enforceable rights. And I want to thank you, Joshua, for everything that you're doing on that. And if there's someone who's listening to this and you're a person, a business, an NGO, please have a look at Get in Contact with us. We have so many ways that we want to connect with you because we really see this issue as something we all need to do together. I really appreciate all your perspectives. And of course, as you were talking about the four elements, it is important that we of course start with people as the UN Charter starts out with the peoples. Then of course, it is important to include government because governments are supposed to be the ones that uphold these laws, that is, they're the duty bears. Then of course, it's quite crucial to look and consider the corporations. The corporations have done much of the harm, but in many ways we can see when they do come together that they can move quickly as they look at everything in quarters for their profits and those aspects. And you see even Patagonia coming up with the Earth as our only shareholder. So it's bringing together those different segments of global civil society and our world to make sure that they're talking with each other. And we can see that in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, we can all see that as well in the UN 2030 Agenda and UN Sustainable Development Goals and how we can bring those 17 goals on the ground to leave no one behind. And I really appreciate what you were sharing Lauren about furthest behind furs, making sure that everyone's included and that we begin with really the values of those host cultures that have been denied for too long can focus on the vision of what you're looking at of a legal architecture. And then most important, make sure everybody has a voice in this process to have an inclusive, impactful way to live in this world that provides a bold, beautiful way to continue forward. So thank you all for joining and sharing your perspectives on what we can do for people, planet and for peace ultimately. Mahalo Nui.