 Well as I did yesterday I will do today because I always do because I need your help So if you could just pray for me for a moment that I'll speak the Lord's words to you that we can really listen the theme of this Talk that we can listen especially to him and open our hearts to him to what he wants to say To each one of us so if we could just pray for each other for a moment And let's ask for the intercession of the great listener the one who heard the words so clearly he became flesh in her womb Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with you Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus Holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit one of the beautiful things about unbound is Precisely this dimension of listening a large portion of the unbound prayer session is Listening giving a chance Giving a person a chance to speak to share their story to put their experience into words to capture some way of both speaking the pain the struggle the wound the bondage the the fear to share their experience and then also ultimately helping them to Do the renunciations offer the forgiveness be able to speak their repentance and Receive that that freedom and ultimately receive the Father's love But that dimension of listening is something that I found very beautiful about unbound from the beginning I come from the direction of of spiritual direction. I'm the spiritual director for our seminary st. Vincent seminary in La Trobe and I do a lot of listening When I first experienced unbound and saw that the primary thing is is listening helping someone to share their story and to speak From the depths again. I was able to make that connection. It's not some kind of weird ministry in the basement It's really an extension of the kind of ministry that we already understand and just the keys help us to capture some key elements and then offer those to people to pray and to find freedom so Compassionate listening transformative listening is an important part of unbound One of the most beautiful words that we hear and we hear them in unbound sessions as you have likely also heard them in spiritual Direction and pastoral counseling and confession I've never told this to anyone before I Don't know if there's anything that thrills my heart more Then to hear that and I don't know if there's anything that summons my attention more than when someone says that I've never Said this to anyone before Because what we're on the verge of in that moment is a lot of freedom a Lot of times the things that control us are the things that we hold in the darkness and Merely exposing them to the light has a way of emptying out the enemy's power It's rule number 13 for those of you who are Ignatian aficionados rule number 13 bring everything into the light But in order to bring everything into the light We need to know that someone can hear us. We need to know that we're safe We know that we need to know that we can express that and someone is listening and To listen like that is one of the greatest gifts we can offer to people I would invite you first of all to Think about your own experience and I would offer these two key reference points You can hopefully take a few things from the talk that I give but I encourage you to go beyond that and do your own reflection on What is a path of compassion of transformative listening, but I think the two key reference points are first of all our own experience? So I want to pause for just a minute and let you think about a time That someone really listened to you In a way that you could really open your heart and Could even find healing Just reflect on that for a moment and what made that listening so powerful And how did it make you feel to be listened to like that? I think it's always good to start from that place of our own experience And especially when we feel like when we feel how it was to be listened to How transforming how healing that was? That's the gift that we want to be able to give to others our second Critical reference point is how has Jesus listened to us? We all have a relationship with him or we wouldn't be in this room How has he listened to us? Maybe one of those times in prayer that you felt like you could really express your heart that you really saw you That you felt unconditionally loved And a lot of times those two things are gonna go together the way that you experience the love and listening of Jesus is going to be at least somewhat informed by the way that others have listened to you and vice versa sometimes we have a hard time believing that God listens because Some of those who should have listened to us didn't do a very good job of that and that's even a place of healing But it's good to keep to go back to those places. How have others listened to me and how has Jesus listened to me? We know that Jesus is in fact such a good listener. Sometimes we wish he would do more speaking But he's a very good listener and we should know that even when he is silent It's not because he's absent. It's because he's listening. He wants to draw even more from our hearts We can think about sometimes that Jesus listened going to the scriptures One of those times is the story of the woman at the well and John chapter 4. It's a very unusual encounter Jesus meets this woman at the well and Begins this dialogue. That's interesting and we can pull that apart But at the end of it He listens he engages her and then he speaks this truth to her that makes her go off and say He told me everything I ever did and we think No, he didn't He just told you about these five husbands. It's not everything you ever did But what that means is that he really got to the bottom he got to the very bottom He got to the deepest place in her He heard the deepest place in her. He actually saw it and he didn't condemn her He drew her out into the light and when that deepest place was seen When she was able to say her equivalent of I've never told this to anyone before She felt loved and listened to you in a way that she felt he totally knew her That's the kind of listening that we want to offer in the very process of listening there can be healing We see that in the story of the man with the withered hand You know Jesus is in the synagogue the Pharisees have this guy with the withered hand and they want to put Jesus to the test and Jesus engages them a little bit and then eventually he says to the man who is probably so Embarrassed he's got this hand kind of hidden away. It's the sign of all of his shame Gathered together It's the sign of his curse that he's done something wrong. However, they were conceiving about that He doesn't want anybody to see that hand and what does Jesus say to him stretch out your hand And that's what we really invite people to do in unbound We invite people to do that in our own ministry with them Have the courage to be vulnerable To share that deepest fear that deepest wound Jesus has stretched out your hand and the scripture says as he stretched it out It was healed So Jesus didn't even do anything after that. He didn't say anything. He didn't touch his hand He didn't spit on him or anything, you know He just as he stretched it out it was healed and a lot of times there's healing simply in the listening When we give people a space to be vulnerable and to share that deepest place that deepest fear that Place of shame and they can stretch that out. They find healing Jesus also listens through entering into our experience and ultimately that's the way that he redeems us by taking all of our wounds on himself all of our sin on himself There's real empathy. He enters in he hears us enough to allow us to Impress all of our stuff on him all of our wounds are on his heart We can communicate all of that to him and he takes it in so deeply This is the kind of model of listening for us and we have it also with our lady There's that beautiful verse in Luke chapter 2 where it says The simian prophesies to her your own heart will be pierced by a sword that the Thoughts of many hearts may be revealed and the word in Greek is deologous more the thoughts It has a sense of kind of thoughts that are at each other Dia or or cut apart. There's a kind of struggle division confusion. It's this Wrestling interior interior thoughts that we often carry around those kinds of struggles And what a gift it is when someone listens to us well enough that we can put it into words Just being able to express it and our lady enters into the pain and a good listener also enters into the pain of Someone who's struggling who's wrestling who has all of these conflicting thoughts and struggles to finally allow that person Help that person put it into words and express it expose that place of shame and confusion that's in their lives So I want to go through a list. I didn't count the number of bullet points like some of the previous talks But anyway a list of qualities of transformative listening and I'd say that the first is that it's always very gentle and In fact, we can see a number of words going together. St. Paul lists them several times We know the qualities of love that he starts with love is patient. Love is kind. We also hear that Join together with the words gentle and humble in Ephesians 4 and in Colossians 3 I think talks about being humble gentle kind Patient these are qualities of good listening the word for patience in in Greek is Really means it's closer connected with long suffering slow to anger It has it has a sense of holding ourselves back Not lunging in not speaking too quickly, but holding ourselves back and so giving someone room to speak Giving someone a space that they can speak into Humble kind Gentle that we listen in a way That someone is not afraid of us because often the things that we express are so tender so fragile so sensitive That any rough movement any harsh word any resistance from us can cause a lot of pain in that space Our listening has to be very very gentle. We can think of really receiving someone's heart It's like heart surgery now I've never held my someone's heart in my hands, but I've talked to doctors and nurses who have and What it's like to actually? Compress a heart to cause the heart to beat to hold someone's heart in our hands It's really what we're doing when we invite people to speak from the deepest places to share the deepest wounds To share the deepest hopes and joys to really share things that they've never expressed to anyone We hold their heart in our hands and the and the slightest movements can do a lot of damage When we have that exposed heart, there's a reason that God normally hides it behind a rib cage But when we hold that heart in our hands, we have to be so gentle Small movements can do a lot of damage, but small movements can also cause great lead to great healing And again, that's one of the beautiful things that can happen and unbound is this someone opens their hearts And we can really receive that and help them to speak truth into it Help them to rearrange some of those thought patterns and to stand against the schemes of the enemy who has So'd some of that in their hearts can lead to great healing Also in our listening, it's so important to give our full attention The word tender and the word attention have that same root It's a it's actually an Indo-pean Indo-European root TEN means stretched It's also tendon tender attention. It has to do with being stretched And when we give someone our attention, it does really stretch us Matt Lozano was saying to me earlier He said, you know, I can teach I can speak for five hours with no problem. I'm not tired at all But a couple of unbound sessions that the attention that's required to listen to someone He said that just really drains me To really hold ourselves in tension to keep our full attention on the person who is speaking that we're not Thinking about the weather that we're not planning our next meeting that we're not thinking about what happened Three hours ago that we're not checking our watch or looking at our phones or answering the phone To actually give someone our full attention It's really one of the most precious gifts we can give because one of the most limited resources We have is time and to actually dedicate time to people Listening to them to give them that attention is a tremendous gift But also is a is a real sacrifice so our eye contact Letting the person really be the whole world letting the rest of the world melt away for us for that Hour for half hour or whatever it is that we're listening to someone for an unbound session or for a confession How easy it is for us to be distracted in confession to have a phone in one hand and the confessional screen on the other side of us It's a terrible disservice I think Cardinal Sarai use stronger words for it But to give our full attention to someone is really a tremendous gift so that we can also listen to the Holy Spirit at the Same time. What's the Lord saying? How is he speaking to us? What's going on inside of us? What is the other person saying to us our full attention and Likewise giving our loving attention to someone that we're really predisposed to love them Pope Francis in the joy of the gospel Use this word accompaniment that's become very popular in in our days now, but the art of accompaniment. It's a beautiful expression. He says The church will have to initiate everyone Priests religious and laity into this art of accompaniment Which teaches us to remove our sandals before the sacred ground of the other It's a beautiful expression. I can come back to that quality of humility To actually come before someone with the humility of realizing this person Has something that I cannot receive in any other way except from this person each one of us is a unique incarnation of The body of Christ each one of us carries God in our souls in a unique way and expresses him in a unique way And there's no way that I can know God in this way except through this person and To actually have that kind of attention that kind of loving attention and reverence for the person that's in front of me And so using that image of Moses from the burning bush to remove our sandals Before the sacred ground of this other person actually come with that humility I think one of the great dangers for us as priests is we do have so much experience with people so we're tempted to think that we have all the answers and That all the person needs is an answer In fact the person needs to be able to express and come to the answer largely on their own And even if we help them along I love that image that Janet used of a midwife a midwife obviously does something But it's the woman giving birth that's doing all the work and her body already knows how to do that Our souls our minds Filled with the Holy Spirit know how to find healing and know how to find answers to our problems But just need a little bit of help a little bit of coaching little support to come and do that and help people to put it into words So to come alongside someone that like that and Pope Francis says this pace of the pace of this accompaniment accompaniment must be steady and reassuring reflecting our closeness and our compassionate gaze Which also heals liberates and encourages growth in the Christian life So we really come before someone with faith with faith that God is in this person that the Holy Spirit At least through their baptism that they've been given faith and hope the theological virtues that the Holy Spirit can make a dwelling place in this person and is alive in this person we come before them with faith and confidence and That loving attention seeing more in them than they see in themselves When we can do that we can also help them to see the gift that they are there's a Psychologist dr. Conrad bars who took elements of a Thomistic Anthropology and applied them to to the practice of psychology and has some beautiful books I give you a new heart and healing and feeling your emotions Born only once number of beautiful books, but he talks about affirmation and Affirmation not just in speaking words to someone, but affirmation in a whole Kind of stance towards the person and he describes that in three levels. He really pulls apart And and makes distinctions that we often don't think of but he starts at the level of of our belief That we really believe in the goodness of the person that's in front of in front of us That this person is Good in themselves Not just because of something they can do not just because of something they can offer not just because of what they may be in The future, but is already good that Fundamental belief this person is good And then secondly we allow ourselves to be moved by that goodness to allow ourselves to feel that and To know it inside of us To not be indifferent. We're not doing a surgical technique. I always say if you're doing unbound like Google Then you're not doing unbound if if a search bar could replace you Type in these spirits type in these experiences type in these inputs And I'll give you the outputs and that's some kind of formula and you can speak it then it's not unbound It's not priestly ministry. I don't it's it's electronic, right? It's technological But part of what we offer is our own human response We offer our own hearts we offer our own presence our attention our affirmation of the goodness of this person and we Stay before them we allow ourselves to be moved by them and then having received the gift of the person Then we're able to give that back. We give that back by our eye contact. We give it back by our words We give it back by small gestures But when we have this kind of affirming love for someone we give them the gift of themselves and We we need someone to give us the gift of ourselves in a very fundamental way and then for that also to be renewed And that really creates a bond of trust that helps us also to take their hand and lead them through the prayers They're able to repent and to forgive to renounce They're able to do that deeper work because they have the strength of our presence of our love of our affirmation another quality of transformative listening is is being able to echo back What the person is saying to us and it's one of the beautiful things about unbound is being able to give a word to that You know someone someone says to us, you know, sometimes I I felt so terrible that I wished I would die and We can give them, you know, can can we say that there's a spirit of suicide at work in there? And and can we just name that okay? We're gonna put that down and and as as Janet said after the session Sometimes we say it to them along the way and it helps to tag that experience when my When my own father scared me and there was fear that came to me Having Neil identify that was there a spirit of fear that came to you at that moment Yeah, that's that's right. That's that's what happened And now I have a word to hold on to and then when we come back to the time of prayer I'm able to express that but when we offer that to someone is that a spirit of Or as They were saying earlier, you know, if there's if there's resentment That that young man who is catching the ball his father was throwing it harder and harder and he's catching it and he stands up And he's angry resentment and then bitterness even hatred possibly murder and we can walk through that I'm not gonna tell a person. Oh, you have a Spirit of murder I'm gonna ask, you know was was there even a desire that your father would disappear that he would go away Forever, you know, that could be a spirit of murder at work. Let's renounce that let's cover that and so we give word to these experiences and Then that also helps the person know that we're really hearing them It's helpful in our other ministry as well to name things to give a word to it It helps us to know that we're hearing At the same time it is important to ask those clarifying questions part of good listening is asking Clarifying questions. We're always in danger of thinking. Oh, I already know this one. Yeah, I know what your problem is If you feel that way stop right there, don't say that Ask always ask even if we're right about it It's so important not to get ahead of people. Let them say it by asking clarifying questions. Is it You know as Did you feel a lot of anger in that moment? Did you really hate your father and that experience? Were you terrified of what he was going to do to you? No, no, no, that's that's not it I was I was afraid that you know, let them correct you let them change the words Let them use their own way of saying it because ultimately we're trying to engage the freedom of those that were ministering to We want them to be able to take ownership and and be able to express that Another thing that can that's really important to keep track of is is not to be distracted by the smoke screens You know when when there's something that's really tender underneath In fact, we can track our own feelings really. There's nothing more lovable than vulnerability When someone really shares something with us, that's that's vulnerable That's tender the kinds of things they haven't told anybody before the kinds of things that make a tear come and make their voice Quiver a little bit the things that are so shameful that they're afraid that we're going to say something hurtful to them We've all heard these confessions. We've probably all made these confessions When someone speaks that vulnerable, there's nothing more lovable than that and our hearts are naturally moved by that On the other hand, there's perhaps nothing more ugly than defenses When people are justifying when they're making excuses when they're talking around things when they're blaming everybody when they're Complaining about everything when they're have all of their issues with this thing and that thing. They're quoting all kinds of stuff and and we just want to React to all of that and stop it or even resist them and shut it down We can be aware of what's happening ourselves in those moments too, but don't be distracted. It's always a smoke screen The really interesting thing is on the other side of that What are they protecting? so vehemently With all of this blaming and complaining and excusing and justifying and all of this stuff that's that's going on in front of that So if we cannot react to that and let often we have to let it wash over us a little bit again And in an unbound session we can name some of that, you know, is there a Do we need some some forgiveness there for that person that you're you're blaming everything for is it do we need some some renounce complaining renounce the blaming So always try to see beyond that ask the Holy Spirit to to help you and and even to ask can be helpful What's sound sounds like there's something really tender under there? Is there some fear there? Is there some hurt wherever? There's anger. There's pretty much always some hurt there's a place that someone feels powerless feels helpless and when we can get at that then We can we're really starting to get to the to the root of things another beautiful aspect of compassionate transformative listening is Offering a gaze of love we hear this in the scripture the rich young man Jesus looked at him and Loved him often without saying anything we can look into the eyes of others Pope Francis said in the Misery Cordia of Ultus and is inauguration for the year of mercy. He said mercy is The fundamental law that dwells in the heart of every person Who looks sincerely into the eyes of his brothers and sisters on the path of life? When we really look sincerely into the eyes of others mercy is what naturally wells up in our hearts When we really see the person when we haven't reduced them to a problem when they're not just an interruption in our schedule when they're not just an obstacle for us When we see the person Gaze into their eyes and look with love. I think of the story of the blind man It's another beautiful example of when Jesus listened the the blind beggar Bartimaeus who cried out Was sitting there and cried out the apostles told him to be quiet But Jesus heard his cry He was listening and he went over to him and then we have a great example of what Jesus invites us also to do What does he do? He doesn't say hey, you're blind. Do you want me to heal you? He says what do you want me to do for you? He gives him a chance to put it into words And maybe we can get inside the heart of the blind man How hard was it for him to say that? I mean whoever heard of Someone healing a man born blind Who's ever done this before and for him to have the courage to say I Want to see Jesus allowed him to engage his freedom to make an act of faith and to step forward in that and Then he heard it and he said have your sight And then if we think what was the first thing the blind man saw he saw the eyes of Jesus How beautiful and that's what we want to be able to offer people as well Because our bondage makes us blind really when we're leading people and unbound when we're breaking the chains We're really giving people sight again and the first thing they should see is Jesus We should be Jesus to them and our eyes should be open and able to communicate him to them That gaze of love We can think also about the way that Jesus Looked at the woman caught in adultery Whatever you may think about Jesus writing on the ground The fact is that he was on the ground and What it enabled him to do was at least to be level with her maybe also even to look up at her Jesus bent down beneath a Prostitute or at least a woman caught in adultery. He bent down beneath this sinner woman And he looked up at her And he gazed at her and she could feel that he didn't look down on her And that's the posture also that we need for that compassionate listening when we put ourselves in the position of I'm the Priest I'm the deacon. I'm the one with all the answers come to me and I'll fix all your problems Pour all this out and then when you put ourselves in that dominant position It doesn't create the space that people need to really be able to open their hearts But when we can bend down like Jesus look up at the one who comes to us and look at them with love Incompatient listening we also Can't be afraid of silence. There's always a temptation to fill the silence a Lot of times silence can be a precursor to someone bringing out the deepest thing Those things that are hardest to say now some people tend to spill things out What a little more extroverted person, but more introverted person really tries to gather it up is formulating the words inside of themselves is trying to To make make a sentence out of it and then have the courage to express it And it's so painful when someone just walks into that space and has to fill the silence Well, what else do you want to what else do you have to what? What else do you you know when we allow our own anxieties and nervousness to cloud up that space if we can hold ourselves back? Have the patience the long suffering even to hold ourselves back and maintain our attention Look with that gaze of love and maybe a little encouragement. It's okay. Take your time. It's all right Anything else that you want to share? take your time also useful is when asking a question as a Jenna was saying we often in unbound at least ask the question. You know, what was your relationship with like with your parents a Lot of times people will say first. I don't know Don't jump into that. I don't know is a precursor to I'm going to tell you the important thing now It's very helpful to realize that let the I don't know stand Followed by a little silence and then the rest of it will come out They just are not totally willing to commit to it. And so they put the I don't know as a kind of you know Hedging their bets at the at the front of it. So let those silences draw out a little bit more look with love and One of the things that's going to happen when we listen to people whether in unbound or in any other setting is if we're really listening We're gonna really feel our poverty and especially if we put this burden on ourselves that we have to have all the answers I'm the priest. I'm the deacon. I have to have all the answers You don't have to have all the answers You just need to listen and love the person let the Holy Spirit be at work and trust that God wants to do more than we even dream of in every encounter and So we have to learn to sit in our own poverty There's a real poverty that we feel when we don't know what to do. Wow. This is really big I can't believe this person was Was was abused like that suffered like that. I can't believe the stuff that they're saying and We feel the the poverty of that. I don't know how to help them and Sometimes just the encouragement that we're still listening. Thank you for sharing that That must have been really hard We're gonna pray through that I'm gonna try to find some freedom from that Just expressing Your presence reassuring The less we think we know The better we will listen So the more poor that we can be That we can realize I've never Encountered this person before or at least I've never encountered this person at this time before and I can't know what's inside of this person unless they share it with me The less we think we know the better we will listen And so to really empty ourselves out allow ourselves to be really poor before the mystery of this person I mean the fact is we don't even really know what's going on in ourselves Let alone go know what's going on in anybody else and just to be in that place of poverty There's a there's a beautiful book called poverty of spirit if you haven't read it really encouraged you he talks about the The limitations the poverty of our humanity, but he says Every genuine human encounter must be inspired by poverty of spirit We must forget ourselves In order to let the other person approach us We must be able to open up to the other person to let that person's distinctive personality unfold Even though it often frightens or repels us We often keep the other person down and only see what we want to see and So we never really encounter the mysterious secret of their being We only encounter ourselves Failing to risk the poverty of encounter We indulge in a new form of self assertion and pay a price for it Loneliness Because we did not risk the poverty of openness our lives are not graced with the warm fullness of human existence And we are only left with a shadow of our real self Entering into that poverty listening encounters always entering into a poverty that never feels Particularly comfortable Although as that unfolds and the encounter deepens and we have the reward of seeing something beautiful happen before us God rewards us far more than we give another quality of compassionate listening is is to really allow ourselves to be Impressionable so to allow our hearts to be soft like wax that we don't come Hardened with our own defenses that we don't come in a in a sense a ready to battle against the other person We need to be ready to battle against the enemy, but in a way that protects the person I love the image of of the masculine heart in particular as being like a medieval castle with high walls strong outward facing defenses, but then this Soft interior the walls are there for the sake of the interior When we really listen to someone we let them inside the castle We allow them to pierce our hearts by the beauty of their person by the mystery That they that they open up to us and we let them in so we allow ourselves to We allow them to make an impression on us like soft wax like our lady's womb Conrad Barr has used another image for Affirmation that I like very much. He said it's like Affirmation is like water The qualities of water the way that it shapes itself around something so you can think of a fish or a plant or a Coral or whatever water has a way of shaping all the way around it when we really listen to someone We we follow the contours of their story. We allow their uniqueness to emerge We shape ourselves around them and then water also has a way of of protecting You know if you tried to hit something when you when you swing something at water it cushions the blow and There's a way that our Affirmation does that as well as we unfold the person in this protective space of our encounter Water also has a way of covering over the blemishes So what we see through water looks a little bit nicer than it does when it's brought out and that's also a way We see people in the best light We see them through the through God's eyes We see them with love and so the the perfect image of that water and that affirming love is is the mother's womb Where we're unfolded in the the water sack as it were of the womb that that shapes itself around that baby, which is Most vulnerable the most vulnerable we are is as a baby in the womb and to have that safe space So to create that kind of womb of the heart to be able to receive people in listening is so transforming Pope Francis in his 2016 message for the World Day of Communication that's that that was in the year of mercy. He spent the whole message on listening It's very beautiful. I really encourage reading the whole thing, but I just want to read a little piece of it He said he recognizes listening is never easy Many times it is easier to play deaf listening means paying attention Wanting to understand To value to respect and to ponder what the other person says And I love this he says It involves a sort of martyrdom or self-sacrifice So when we feel that we can know it's working When we feel like we're dying Someone is pouring out their hearts to us. It's working good. There is a kind of martyrdom. There's a self-sacrifice We're setting aside all of our own concerns. We're setting aside the other things that seem to be pressing We're really making space for a person to be able to reveal Their whole self their deepest secrets their greatest shame the deepest wounds to help them go to the depths They need that space and we die for that It involves a sort of martyrdom or self-sacrifice as we try to imitate Moses before the burning bush We have to remove our sandals when standing on the holy ground of our encounter with the one who speaks to me Knowing how to listen is an immense grace It is a gift which we need to ask for and then make every effort to practice There's a woman Judith Glazer who did some research on on listening on conversations She actually worked with children with autism and was was interested in the kinds of engagement that she was able to have and Notice that there were some different qualities and wanted to understand that more deeply and then engaged in a fairly intensive research project also measuring the the the brainwaves and identifying what's happening inside of people biochemically when when conversations are taking place and she identified three levels of listening based on the research the first level she called Transactional and that's the kind of listening when we that we do when we're information gathering so Maybe at the social here in a few minutes you meet somebody new you do some transactional Conversation, who are you? Where are you from? How long have you been a priest? How's your ministry if you had a good time at the con for whatever we're just just information gathering the dynamic is ask and tell and It's and it's important. So none of these is is sort of bad But that basic first encounter we do that to get on the same page to harmonize to connect the Second level of listening she calls positional And this is what happens when we start to debate a point when we start to put my position out against your position There's a recognition that you have a position you have an opinion and there's a certain respect for that But I'm also trying to put forward my opinion and I may be listening to you in a way that I'm looking for a hole in your Argument or I'm looking to nuance your thinking. I'm looking to convince you of something. It's positional We're we're jockeying for a position a little bit Now both of these first two levels of conversation are again They're natural ways even as we get to know each other We we find out the basic data and then I I kind of want to find out what kind of priest you are, you know I you the charismatic kind of priest or the you know the traditional kind of priest are you gonna anyway? We you know, we're trying to figure out where everybody is and and how to connect and Maybe then try to convince them of our own approach to these things So we have that that positional conversation Both of these are important and they build connections But if we get stuck in either of them, then they become stressful ask tell Starts to become interrogate and dictate It's not helpful And and when we get stuck at that level that I don't really want to hear what you have to say I only want to hear a narrow form of answer from you I'm starting interrogating you or I just want to tell you what I think I'm not interested in even having a conversation That becomes stressful starts to release cortisol. It takes place in the back of the brain by the way it's a very primitive form of conversation and not too different from Google actually but The difference is that it it starts to build a foundation that we can move to a more human conversation from there The second level of positional again can become a little bit stressful. It can become interesting to engage about ideas I have my experiences. You have your experiences. We're kind of balancing these against each other We're a little bit guarded in that and in communicating it it takes place in a in a middle section of the brain it's a little bit more advanced part of our brain and Again, it's sort of it helps to build trust to find out where people are but the third level of conversation is what Judith Glaser calls transformational and The dynamic of that third level of conversation is share and discovery and That's the kind of conversation where I feel totally free to express Whatever is happening inside of me. I know that you're an impostor of discovery You're actually willing to listen to me. You're willing to hear whatever I want to share and I feel open to do that and And also likewise there can be a mutuality or not, but that dynamic of share and discovery that it's it's totally open that that conversation takes place in the most advanced part of the brain in the prefrontal cortex and It releases oxytocin which is the bonding hormone and it also is the one that makes us feel really good and helps us to Feel confident and it releases stress. It washes out, you know other bad bad feelings There's a real connection that happens there and it turns out this is amazing It turns out that staying in that transformational conversation for a period of time Can actually change our DNA I don't know if you're aware that's relatively new research that DNA is capable of changing DNA can actually grow so through transformational conversations. We actually have structural changes in our bodies So cells will reproduce according to these conversations The people that we're talking to will reproduce Potentially according to these conversations. It has a way of making generational changes When we're able to give someone that space that they can really Open their hearts that they can really share in the deepest way when there's such total trust that they can Share the deepest things so moving toward that place of transformational conversation again having all of these qualities of Transformative of compassionate listening is part of creating that space that someone feels they can really trust you and they can really Tell you what is going on in the depths of their hearts. They can really communicate what is most precious to them So hopefully our unbound sessions that you experience and the ones that you lead will also Move toward that transformational conversation that you create a space that someone can really Pour out the depths that you can help them name some of those things and help them to put words to it Give them courage and strength. It's interesting You know sometimes we And one of the dynamics of unbound I don't remember this has been said but unbound is not providing counseling so we don't do counseling in unbound sessions One of the things that's helpful with that is again unbound is is meant to be shared with the lay faithful who may not have all of the Tools or all of the nuances we've received a little bit more formation perhaps But but they're not in a position of providing counseling. So one of the things with counseling that We tend to do is try to convince people Of something of a different approach. We try to help them We give them some direction and point them in a different direction it's a little bit more of a positional conversation and We know that there's a need for that sometimes people are doing self-destructive things. They're taking wrong directions We need to point them in the right direction, but I Often try to remember if my response to someone is either Stop it or try harder Usually that's not the right response It turns out that most people have thought of that themselves and they don't really need us to tell it tell them that but if we want to tell them stop it really what they need is Help in believing that they're able to stop it and Sometimes just being able to share their story and then with our faith to be able to stand against the enemy's schemes To renounce the lies and to take a step forward is precisely what they need to be able to stop it Sometimes the positional conversation can only be fruitful if we actually go first into that share and discovery that transformational conversation that build some of the even the human biochemistry and structural changes that someone needs To be able to take that step forward and stop it or have the courage in fact to Face it again to try harder and to move forward so again, let me return to our lady to Close my talk and to look at her really as a model of listening our lady Listened to the angel She allowed herself to be moved by the word that he spoke to be troubled by what he said to her But then ultimately to give to yield and faith and to say let it be done to me according to your word She allowed her body to be molded by that word her womb to be formed to be able to bear The word of God in a certain sense. She listened to the father She gave him that shared discovery Conversation so much that he was able to say everything to her and she was able to take everything into her womb Take everything into herself and give him a place to be born But then she listened, you know She she's the holiest woman in the world and the shepherds came to her these poor shepherds Lord only knows what kind of smells they had let alone Education and way of speech and whatever else they came and they talked and she allowed herself to be amazed by them Whatever shepherds come to us. Can we have the amazement of our lady? Can we be amazed by what people share with us because every heart is a revelation of God like the shepherds received in the field and Then after they spoke to her She pondered these things in her heart. She really took them into herself That word pondering she Symboling she she threw them together She put them together. She held them up against the things that she understood and knew she allowed herself to really work with them to take them in and Likewise, even after she heard something that confused her a little bit that troubled her Son why your father and I were worried about you. Why did you do this? Did you not know that I must be in my father's house? And he went with them and was obedient to them and she took all these things and pondered them in her heart She took them in So our lady really models for us the kind of obedient listening humble kind gentle patient listening that gives space for those who share their hearts with us to really grow and to be formed and Ultimately to be set free Let us pray Heavenly Father give us this grace of listening Help each of us to grow in our capacity to receive others to love them as our lady does to listen as she does and To receive through each one your word and to allow that word to find a place in our own hearts And to be formed within us Help us to listen in a way that brings freedom and healing to others In all that we do in unbound and throughout all of our ministry And we ask all this through our ladies prayers and through Christ our Lord In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit