 Hello everyone and welcome to this Hyperledger Foundation member webinar. I'm Julian Gordon. I'm the Asia Pacific VP for Hyperledger and I'm delighted to welcome you to this event. It's great to see many on this webinar today. I have to say good morning to those in the US. We have Thomas from our team who's up at this time. Good afternoon to everyone joining from UK, Europe, Middle East and India and good evening to everyone joining here in Asia Pacific. I'm really looking forward to today's talk, which is a deep dive with Hyperledger member Red Date Technology and GFT into the Universal Digital Payments Network or what they call UDPN, as you can see on the screen. In a second, Tim and Stefan, as you can see on this screen, will present on the UDPN. This will be followed by Q&A. I've already arranged some questions, but please submit your questions via the Q&A button at the bottom of your screen and we'll try to get to that to as many of those as possible. Please do give us questions. But before I introduce you to the speakers, I do have a couple of housekeeping items. Firstly, Hyperledger is a Linux Foundation project and as such has an antitrust policy. So if you'd like to read more about this, please go onto our website. It's easily available. This session will also be recorded and will be available on our website and YouTube so you can rewatch this again and again. And any slides, the slides that we're presenting here today will also be available for download. With that, I'd like to introduce you to our speakers. I'm delighted to say we have Tim Bailey, who's based here in Hong Kong like me. Tim is the Vice President of Global Sales for Red Date Technology, which is an innovative, decentralized cloud infrastructure company headquartered in Hong Kong that builds next generation public IT system infrastructure for internet communications, digital economies and metaverses. Tim is a very well-known executive, probably previously he started his career at Intel and has now over 20 years of international executive level experience across multiple roles, including general management, business development, product development, marketing and sales. So welcome, Tim. With Tim, we are delighted to have Stefan Shaker, who is joining us from Singapore. Stefan is the UDPN lead for GFT. GFT is a global IT engineering and solutions provider and as a pioneer in digital transformation, GFT developed sustainable solutions across new technologies. It's located in more than 15 markets and has an amazing team of over 10,000 people. Stefan himself started his career as an IT consultant and worked his way up to project lead and project manager and has worked in various domains focusing on business development, transformation projects and his head of innovation in the consulting arena. So I'm delighted to have you both, Tim and Stefan. And now I'm delighted to hand over to you and can you bring us the UDPN story? And I'm going to control the slides here, so I'll take you to the first slide. Great. Thank you. Thanks, Julian. Thanks for having us and thanks, Stefan, from our partner GFT for joining. So I think, Julian, you can probably go to the next slide here. So we launched the UDPN at the World Economic Forum Week in Davos in January and we were joined there by a number of leading global financial institutions to talk about what was going on in the world of regulated digital currencies, why interoperability is really important and why there is a market need for an infrastructure that can support all these different types of digital currencies, regulated digital currencies like central bank digital currencies and regulated stable coins. So a number of us there launched and announced the UDPN and we had a number of leading tier one commercial banks and obviously Hyperledger Foundation joining us for that event. Next slide. So the UDPN is an infrastructure, right? It's an infrastructure that supports central bank digital currencies and regulated stable coins. Sometimes when people hear digital currency, they think about cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin and ETH and things like this. This is not a cryptocurrency network. It's a network for government regulated digital currencies. And as we've seen particularly over the last several months, there are dozens if not over 100 different central banks and governments that are working on creating central bank digital currencies. And one of the missing pieces for all of that is having interoperability network that enables all those different currencies to interact and also enables businesses and commercial banks and other enterprises to be able to access those digital currencies in an efficient and transparent way. And that's what UDPN is for. Next slide. Okay. So I'd like to, yeah, I'd like to invite Stefan from our partner GFT, GFT and Red Date are working together to co-develop the UDPN. So Stefan, take us through the next. Yeah, thank you very much, Tim. Okay. Yeah. Welcome to everyone who joined this very interesting webinar today. And I think since you are interested in hyperledger and you have a lot of things to do in the area of digital assets, I think you will agree with me that money will be digital. But what does it mean for us? How is it actually impacting us, right? So obviously there's a lot of talks about speed and access where DLT solutions will basically improve areas within the financial institutions sector of payments. So customers demand near atomic settlement, messages wanted to be to send across directly and people just want to transfer the money faster than they are doing this at the moment. Yeah. Another point is very important when you look at CBDCs, when the way government and central banks are structuring that is a lot about financial inclusion. So you will have the chance and possibility to create digital wallets and assets for people who are unbanked and not a bank at the moment. Another very important factor is programmable money. So when you look from the perspective of a central bank, it's a much easier way to enforce policies, but also to make money more secure, also to put use cases on the money that maybe kids under 18 years are not allowed to buy cigarettes or alcohol. It's a very beautiful use case and a very good protection. That's all possible with programmable money and smart contracts. And obviously there's a huge, huge interest in the area of cost reduction. If you look at the current value of transaction costs alone, which are nearly 120 billions. That's one-third of the GDP of a small country, but a very important country like Singapore is a huge benefit in reducing this cost for cross-border payments. Complexity goes up. Yes, payments, the payment industry itself, point-to-point solution, different rails, different technology, different way of sending payments across. It all gets more complex here and obviously there's a certain way of trust and security that people who wants to send money across, they demand this and they need that. So if you bring all of these things together, it ties up very much into the vision what UDP is and this is actually solving the problem of interoperability as an infrastructure layer. So this is basically on how it's impacting us, but what is happening when we look at the market, right? Could you go to the next section, please? When you look at the market, you have four very big drivers in this area, we believe. One of them is the regular push. Regular push means more and more countries pushing for CBDCs, more and more countries doing experiments. They're doing proof of concepts. They're doing research. There are even some countries they have launched CBDCs already. So there's definitely a hard push from the regulators to implement it from a banking perspective, right? Then you have the market pull for infrastructure, right? What I mentioned is basically when you look at the cost, the possibility of costs that could be saved for DLT solution, which really would drive down the cost of sending payment is of course a very, very tremendously. Another one is the gardener hype cycle. So I think we talked quite a number of years with blockchain technologies, it will disrupt the market. So I believe we are really there now. So for us as GFT, which is a global system integration company, we have a huge chunk of our business is basically on the implementation of smart contract solutions, blockchain services. So we can really see the uptake of banks on financial institutions. We're not only doing this to try out something or doing it for marketing effect. No, they really implement it because it brings clear business value to them, right? And you will also have stable coins. So stable coins are not cryptocurrency, it's really asset-backed digital currencies, which essentially is a bridge to CBDCs in the future, right? Not many CBDCs are implemented in it. So what we have built already is the infrastructure. Obviously, stable coins will be the bridge for that and will come in a much closer future compared to CBDCs. Okay, where do you go to the next slide, please? And this is really why we have shaped this vision of UDPNR and we had a key of focus. So we started developing this infrastructure two years ago with a very, very clear focus. So again, we will run only government-approved stable coins and CBDCs, so there will be no cryptocurrency running on this network. Fact is obviously there will be huge challenges and difficulties with adoption from a regulated perspective. It's also when you look from a business perspective, there is no business in the world likes to have a fluctuating way of like what cryptocurrency is. You cannot run effectively a business when you're engaged with these kind of like currencies. So they want to have stable coins, right? Then obviously cross-border payments and low-cost and convenient manner. So having this on the TLT infrastructure will enable the benefits for them. Then also UDPN is not meant to serve directly an end user. So we are not an app that everybody can open an app and that you can just transfer money from A to B. That's not the case. So financial institutions will use our infrastructure to basically provide wallets and systems to the end users. Why? Because KYC, AML, they are the ones who are tasked to do it, they are the ones who actually can really do it. That's the only way where regulation will allow that. And what is very important, UDPN is also a co-government blockchain environment. So what it means is essentially we are a down, a decentralized organization. So we have a certain voting mechanisms, which we will explain later a little bit more in detail. But we are not this one organization who decides on governance topic, who decides which CBDC or which currencies onboard it. It's a very democratic process, it's a voting mechanism and the functionality of smart contracts, which makes money programmable, will be included as well. So all of these points be mixed together and we designed a very, very good two-tier infrastructure. So Tim, could you tell us a little bit more about the two-tier infrastructure that we have designed on the next slide? Thanks, Stefan. So this is a high-level architectural diagram of the UDPN. So on the right, you have currency systems. Such as a central bank, digital currency, or a regulated stablecoin would operate transaction nodes. And transaction nodes are the way that those currency systems are onboarded to the UDPN. On the left-hand side, you have IT systems from commercial banks, enterprises, any type of business that wants to connect can operate a business node and think of the business node as the gateway to all of the onboarded regulated digital currencies on UDPN. So one of the things that's unique about UDPN is that unlike other types of messaging networks that only allow financial institutions to connect, the UDPN actually allows any type of business and that business's IT system to connect to a gateway to all of the digital currencies, which opens up a lot of possibilities for how payments and transactions will work in the future. Both of those, the transaction nodes and the business nodes, are actually off-chain. They're not on a blockchain. So at the center, you have the blockchain layer. And the initial instantiation of UDPN is actually built using Hyperledger Bezu. Hyperledger Bezu is a permissioned form, a version of Ethereum. And so for security reasons, this needs to be a permissioned blockchain protocols. It doesn't use public chains as part of the blockchain layer. On within the blockchain layer, you have a smart contract-based application layer. So one of the things, again, that's unique about UDPN is it doesn't just pass information or message from organization A to organization B, bank A to bank B. UDPN actually enables the processing of information via the application layer. So as an example, in the top left, there are a set of UDPN official services or basic services. So very basic types of transactions like transfer, swap, decentralized ID. And these will be a set of basic services that are built into the UDPN that any of the business nodes are able to call. On the right, you have the ability for third parties such as banks or payment companies or technology companies to build their own smart contract-based value-added services to innovate within the UDPN platform. So examples of that could be how to implement and manage the travel rule in UDPN, foreign exchange, how to do cross-institutional KYC. So services based on smart contracts that could fulfill those types of functions. And this is just a very basic list. The list is really endless, and we believe that one of the important aspects of UDPN is that it enables third parties to innovate and build businesses and be creative on the UDPN. In the middle, you have validator nodes, which will be operated by each of the founding members and participating members of the UDPN. So Stefan earlier referred to a co-governance of the network. Initially there will be eight initial members of the UDPN, a combination of global commercial banks and technology companies eventually expanding to 24. Each of those members will operate a validator node in the network, and through that validator node will also be able to participate in the governance on the policies of UDPN. So policy questions like which currencies to onboard the UDPN, which new members to invite to join the UDPN. All of these will be voted on, and each member will have an equal vote in deciding on those policy matters. Finally, there's what we call the transaction audit and reporting nodes, or TAR nodes, which will keep a record, a full record of transactions that are available to regulators and auditing organizations that get permission to access transactions for regulatory purposes. Next slide. So we knew because we were launching an infrastructure that it was important to actually demonstrate different business scenarios, different types of transactions on UDPN. So we designed an initial series of 14 use cases that will expand over time. And those use cases start with the logic of them is that they start with kind of more basic types of scenarios or transactions like a digital currency transfer or a digital currency swap. And then the later POCs, such as number 10, central bank digital currency issue in circulation, build upon the earlier capabilities that we demonstrate in the initial POCs. So we have a very robust process between our partner GFT and Red Date, where we have participants. Right now we have over 20 participants from leading tier one commercial banks, central banks, global policy organizations, large consulting and accounting firms, all of whom we have invited to join these POCs as a way to both learn about how all of this will work in a real infrastructure. Keep in mind this is not a white paper or a demo. This is a real working infrastructure that people can actually go into, operate business nodes, work through testing guides and actually do transactions. At the end of each POC, we will, together with the POC participants, publish white papers or publish reports that will list out exactly, okay, what was done in the POC, what were the issues encountered, how did we mitigate those issues, what were the regulatory questions that came up, what was the input that we got from regulators on those. And we'll publish that and we'll make it public to the public as a way to try to overall advance the industry and move us into this world of regulated digital payments. So one of the calls to action from this webinar is to encourage organizations to join us and participate in these POCs. The call to action goes out to banks, currency related policy makers in governments, central banks, technology companies who are interested and think they may have something to contribute. We welcome the outreach and involvement, there's an email address at the bottom contact at udpn.io. We encourage you to contact us and members of our team will get back to you and discuss how we can get you involved. We're also available to do demonstrations of the technology we have at working. It's been live in a sandbox environment for nearly a year now. And the organizations that have already joined us and are participating are really advancing their knowledge about what's happening in the space and starting to adjust their thinking and how we look at this from a regulatory perspective. So that's our final official slide. I would encourage, I think I'm going to pass it over to Julian who's going to go into a few questions. I'm hiding behind my mute button. There you are. Excellent. I think we've got some questions coming in. So please, you know, bring in the Q&A. I think we've got a lot to unravel there, right? Thank you very much, Stefan and Tim, for that overview. I'm going to look at a certain number of areas, like I talk about the POCs. I think we're going to talk about a little bit more about questions about the Dow, right? What does that mean? How do we vote? And maybe a little bit about the technology, why Bezu and other things like that. So those in the audience, please give me some Q&A questions as well. So I think we'll start with the POCs, which seems to be your methodology that you've taken to take this. Maybe you could maybe, Tim or Stefan, explain why you chose to use POCs and maybe these particular POCs. Sure. I can take that and Stefan can add in. The POCs are really important because they're a way to demonstrate and test the full capabilities of the UDPN. And they're also a way to get other organizations in the ecosystem involved and ask questions, provide input. And what we're finding from those POCs is we're really getting great input and engagement from commercial banks, from central banks, from big policymaking organizations. And it's very different to actually go through how this will actually work in a real infrastructure, in a real environment, versus reading a white paper, which tend to be very theoretical. So that's the core reason why we took the approach to execute on these POCs. Yeah. Another point, and this is very, very important, is actually the learning. So what we're doing here, it's something tremendously new. And if you look at how digital assets will actually disrupt the business of how financial institutions are banking today, it's got to be a tremendous shift in terms of like coming from the fiat world of money to digital assets. So not only us as a technology company, but also from a regulator perspective, from a financial institutions and a banking perspective, from a consulting perspective, putting all these different brains and perspectives from different people together and running through these POCs. Because we are just a technology company, if we would start to build all of these POCs, we would maybe have a solution later on, but we will not have the input of all the questions that need to be answered. And we would not even know some of the questions. So therefore, it's really, really important that like really a bunch of different organizations sit together and work towards these POCs. And that's really, really a big, big plus point. And this is the learnings that we generate to this on all different side are phenomenal. Just like even like comments that we got or received from IT heads that are saying, hey, this POC is way better than any training I can bring my people to to learn about digital assets or CBDCs. Working through this proof of concepts really makes them think, but also makes them understand what does it mean for them in a daily way of business and how do they need to adapt and change with this innovation forthcoming? Okay, that's excellent. And what kind of institutions, and I think we've talked before, there's some tier one banks that all kinds of institutions are involved in these POCs. I know you can't mention names, but what kind of organizations and what kind of organizations are you looking for to continue getting involved in these POCs? So we have major tier one commercial banks. We have consulting companies, some of the big names in the consulting world. We have technology companies. We have payment companies. We even have insurance companies because UDPN is really learning and education for any business because any business is involved in commercial transactions. So the types of companies that are participating already is very diverse, right? It's not just limited to banks. Yeah, Stephan, yeah, go ahead. E-commerce companies, for example, they are very interested as well. And why? Because e-commerce companies, they have very huge set of users and customers on the platform. So for them, they would like to figure out the way how can we collaborate with banks, which already doing KYC, which already doing AMRs, which already having a way of like maybe matching like a digital wallet with a fiat wallet and stuff like this. How can they collaborate? Same as with telco companies. So really, airline companies, I got approached from airlines directly say, hey, this network that you are doing is great. So how could we be part of it? How could we integrate it? So it's really businesses all over the world from different kind of industries are realizing the potential and really the innovation shift that goes through the payments market in terms of like cross-border payments with an infrastructure like this being available, suddenly the use cases that emerged. And once these institutions understand the full potential of UVM, they will come up with a few more that these 14 use cases that you have seen. So we envision actually until end of the year, we have something around 20 use cases that we actively working on, but there will be many, many more popping up with companies and financial institutions realizing the power of UVM. So actually, we've got lots of companies. You said insurance. Is it might wise to say these are the true laggards and adoption. So it's amazing that you've got insurance companies and such a diversity of companies involved. Is that in the treasurer's department? Is it? Or where would an organization? Or is it the CIO? What's with the organization? So without mentioning the name of the organization, it's part of the digital transformation and innovation department and the idea that we're working on is how do you, you know, VSmart contract do automatic and instantaneous cross-border payment of premiums, right? When you have people living in multiple countries and maybe they're insured in one country and you know, need an insurance payment in another country and how do you do that in a fast, effective way? Today, what you find in cross-border payments is you have, you know, multiple intermediaries who take, you know, pieces of the transaction as it travels across the world. And a big part of the value proposition of UDPN is, you know, how do the sender and receiver settle that transaction in a more efficient way rather than going through a lot of, you know, intermediaries that takes time and reduces transparency in the transaction. And in these PSCs, are you seeing any kind of GEO? I mean, spread around the world. I know a lot of innovation, obviously a lot of activity here in Singapore and Hong Kong, specifically around digital assets and stuff. Where are you seeing the GEO spread? Or is there any Pacific hotspot? There is, there is. And obviously it comes from the non-financial players within the NGO space, right? And so the interest from them is very often driven from the innovation side, right? If you look at the topic of CVDC that is coming along, obviously a lot of them looking from the angle, how could it be beneficial for people from the underbanked or they're not banked at all area, for example, right? So how could there be synergies? How could there be cost savings? How could we drive financial inclusion more? So there's usually these organizations, they have quite a number of smart people within their innovation organizations and they're really scanning the markers. And we get, especially in conferences, we get a higher interest from there. We have been approached from them and they are interested as well in working with us together. They're very often not a direct developer of the network, but acting more in the capacity of an observer, willing to learn, sharing their feedback, getting also their experience inside and the collaboration with them is good. Okay, excellent, excellent. So now let's go, the POCs, they're global, a lot of really interesting, sounds like a diverse, interesting kind of POCs happening, right? And actually, it's a quick point. When should we first be able to see some of the results from those? You said, I think towards the end of the year, what you were saying, or is that? So some of the POC reports will actually be coming out, starting probably August and September. So, and we'll publicize those and make them available on the UDPN website, which is at udpn.io. Okay, excellent. So now let's look to, I think, the other, another interesting aspect is this concept of the DAO, right? Maybe we could talk a little bit about why you chose a DAO, and then maybe, I think, specifically, the interest seems to be around the voting on that. So I don't know which one of you wants to take that up. Yeah, I can take it. So yeah, establishing a DAO comes for many reasons. One of them is obviously a democratic voting process, right? So if you see what's going on in the market at the moment, so there's payment solution providers, there's organizations who have almost a kind of like monopoly in terms of like governance perspective from the right. So you take a huge messaging network that is going on on the globe about like disconnecting entire countries or currencies with a snap of a finger. They can do that because they have the power. If some of the decisions are right from a stand point, we are not here to argue that certainly, but from a governance perspective about like a democratic voting process, that shouldn't be the case. And in this world, there's more than a couple of very powerful countries that want to transact globally. And many of them, they have obviously voting rights. They have a perspective on how also technology evolves, right? That was one of the major reasons why we basically have decided to keep this as an organization, as a DAO, decentralized organization. So we will start this with eight alliance members that we call it as a first. And that will be a mix of technology companies, financial institutions, and it will be also a mix on geographical diversions, right? We are not interested in having like a huge power from Europe or huge power from Asia or huge power from America to decide on governance topics, right? We really would like to have a decentralized voting mechanism, something that is right for a global perspective to run on these networks, right? In the second step, we will go up to 16 alliance members and these 16 alliance members will come up to 24 in the final area. And the reason why we will stop the 24, it's basically also from a perspective of mode operations. And it doesn't mean that one organization's which is alliance member needs to be an alliance member throughout the end of the days from UDP and so to say. So it really could be like a possibility that organizations choose to be an alliance member only for a certain time and then opt in and out. And we also have chosen the steps of eight, 16 and 24. The reason for this is of super maturity. So if you have exactly these numbers, it's relatively easy to decide what's. So, for example, if there's a new member or the establishment of a valid data note, there would be 80% of the votes required to do so. Another example is should we onboard a new currency to UDP and via and transactional. There will be a voting majority of 60% required. So take out of eight, six alliance member need to vote for that possibly that this new currency is on board. For matters of like upgrading the UDP and note software basically putting on some new functionalities inside 60% again. And this is for different areas that need to happen on the UDP network. There will be a voting structure for them. This voting structure will be also the cornerstones in being an alliance member. And another very important point for the alliances, the alliance is operating the validators. So for alliance members, there's also a huge upside benefit. Taking part of the transaction revenues generated in the UDP network. Yeah, excellent. And from a technical point, is that all managed by smart contracts within the Bezu network? Is that how is that managed? That's correct. Yeah, the voting. Yeah, correct. Yes, through the hyperledger Bezu protocol that we've implemented in the UDP. OK, great. So the other questions, I've got a bunch of questions. Maybe you can also look at the, I'd like to maybe talk a little bit about some of the questions that we're getting in coming in, right? It's an interesting one on KYC that I see. Maybe we'll answer that. So the question is, how will UDP address identity for KYC and conditional transfer rules, et cetera? So KYC is a really important part of UDP. And there's actually a whole POC around KYC that we actually kicked off several weeks ago. And we're demonstrating how using technologies like decentralized IDs and smart contracts can enable KYC between two institutions, right? And how they verify KYC in a secure manner for that transactions. There was a related question around conditional transfers. When going back to what I was talking about with the application layer, you have the ability for, and I'll give the insurance example that I mentioned earlier, where an insurance company could have a smart contract based premium payout that says, if a certain set of conditions are met, then there's a transfer of funds to a recipient based on a particular contract. So there's actually a lot of flexibility and room for organizations to innovate and build value added services within UDPN. We think that's a really important part of UDPN is that even though GFT and Red Date are the initial co-builders, we think it's very important to have contribution from other organizations globally, and particularly from coming from diverse industries. OK, KYC obviously very, very key, right? Also here, have we had any use cases for the aviation? I don't know where that's coming from, or not? So the use case that we have in the aviation sector is basically also around cross-border payments. So airlines buy a lot of services which are not originating from their country, but very often in a country where they serve or where they land. So for them, there's a lot of cross-border payments and settlements needs to be done. And there's a lot of different banks required to be part of that. There's also an area where they have provide payments basically within local currency to their flight crew, which is very often happened just with cash given in a hotel. So that's also a use case that is looked on in different areas. But it's mostly on cross-border payments and settlement in the aviation industry. Another kind of question is the fees, or as it's a Dow, how does it sustain itself, right? Transaction fees, membership fees, or is that still part of the kind of POC that you're working through? So the commercial model for the UDPN is that there will be fees on transactions. They will be very low, much lower than existing networks. And the transaction fees are shared among the alliance members of the UDPN. Are you there, Julien? I thought you were frozen for a second. I'm there. I'm getting lots of questions. Good, good, good. We are. There's a lot of interest here, right? So you mentioned asset tokenization in your use case in the presentation. Is UDPN meant to support any digital assets rather than just kind of CBDCs or stable coins at this moment? Or is it really just around those two assets? So that's why we have an asset tokenization POC because there are interesting use cases around the tokenization of regulated assets. And we think if you think down several years down the road, how can, for example, stock exchanges tokenize shares of companies and make settlement and listing of those things much faster and more transparent? So that's why we think exploring the digital asset space is important for UDPN. Yes, there's also a question regarding how does a participant bridge their own CBDCs or stable coins onto the UDPN and in their transaction validator? And furthermore, is it responsible of the participant and this cross-chain DVP? Or is it just as a transfer supported? So we do have onboarded at the moment a couple of digital currencies already. So today we are supporting USDC, Euro-C, for example, and we are also doing this not only on Ethereum assets, for example. We are also doing this on Algorand, on Solana, on Polygon. As you know, USDC is running on different kind of blockchains. So UDPN is really an infrastructure which tackles the problem of interoperability. So if you remember the slide that we had, the team illustrated about the transaction nodes, which are basically different currency systems. This is where the whole intelligence and onboarding different currencies basically relies. So we in UDPN, we have the possibility to onboard, obviously blockchain-supported digital currencies, but also non-blockchain-supported currency. So off-chain basically. There's a German company which is leading in the market, which is a CBDC simulator. We are working very closely together. They provide such a mechanism, for example. We onboard them as well. And more towards the question of DVP and how is the settlement between different coins done. You have to envision this a little bit like different currency pools that you're putting up. So let's say if two banks would like to exchange value and let's say they would do a swap. So let's say USDC to Euro-C. It's definitely different currencies, right? So we as UDPN, we are not a market maker in the FX transition, right? So we also expect financial institutions and companies to be onboarded to UDPN and participate as a FX market maker because there's a huge opportunity behind there, right? So you have to envision the concept of currency pools. So Bank A has different currency pools of USDC and Euro-C, for example. And Bank B has the same. One of the users from Bank A wants to exchange and value with Bank B. So the transaction message is sent and the transaction is complete. And maybe the actual settlement between the two currency pools and the two bank is done via a settlement solution. But this settlement does not have to be done after each single transactions. Banks and financial institutions could, for example, wait until the end of the day, the end of the week or if they really trust each other, maybe on a monthly basis to just settle the delta in between. So there's a huge and tremendous opportunity also to save costs in the settlement area because you don't need to settle every single transaction anymore. You can build them up because it's an infrastructure messaging layer. I hope you just answered the question. That's great. There's a, Julian, there's an interesting question in the chat. They're all interesting, but I picked this one here. It's a comment on the possible change of role or future new role of commercial banks that might be the new configuration after CBDC has become more widespread. So I think the role of commercial banks will definitely change when you see widespread CBDC adoption. But I don't think by any means it does not eliminate the importance and the need for commercial banks. I just think that some of the business models and the services will change. There will be some of maybe legacy business models that will go away, but I think it will present more, as many if not more new business models and services. For example, digital wallets, right? How can, if CBDCs are widespread as we think they will be, there's a need for individuals to have a digital wallet and how can banks offer digital wallet services, multi-currency digital wallets. That actually that digital wallet topic is a common theme or thread or building block in a lot of our POCs. And I can tell you that the banks and the other financial institutions that we're working with are very, very interested in that topic of multi-currency wallets and how that works. So the summary is, I think it will definitely change, but there's at least as many opportunities for new types of innovative services with banks as there are kind of legacy things that may go away. Let me just build on it. I think the point that you have brought up with new business model for financial institutions, that's really the key aspect, right? If you look with fiat money, what is happening today in the banks business, if you break that down, you have a credit card, you need to pay for it. You have a loan, you need to pay for it. You have a financial instrument, you need to pay for it. You have cross-border settlement, someone needs to pay for it. So there's in each kind of value creation within financial institutions. On the bottom layer, it's a simple transaction from money to one ledger to the other one. If banks to understand the power of UDPM of this very fast settlement, very fast transaction speed, they will come up with their own use cases. They will also reinvent of how banking business is done. It will be so disruptive from what fiat money currently is because digital assets itself, it does not behave like fiat money. If it's on chain, for example, you know almost every given time where is this asset exactly? If you look in the fiat world, this is not possible today. A bank can keep your money for two to three days for cross-border settlement and you have no idea where your money is. You have no idea how much money the bank makes out of this. This may be gone with it, but there will be others and so many new business models coming out of fast transactions from here for there that the financial industry will benefit hugely for it. But it needs to understand what is coming. What is it coming with a wave of CBDCs? What is coming with a wave of digital assets? And it's really the main problem in this environment which we believe is the interoperability between different currency systems. Is this taking care of and is this understood? It's a big positive for the banks actually, right? In terms of innovative new models for them, right? To create new revenue streams and great for the consumer and corporates. So here is actually just following on from I think earlier question. You've heard a lot about banks, but what are the governments and regulators views? Have you have any kind of feedback from that? Now I assume you're engaging with kinds of institutions. The central banks and government organizations and regulators that we've engaged with have been extremely interested because it's a real infrastructure. Again, when you look at a lot of kind of other announcements and things that have gone on in the space, it's very theoretical, which is fine in itself. But there are very few places where regulators and governments and central banks can actually get their hands on the technology and see how it works from a practical perspective. And when you get your hands on the technology and you start to do it and you start to say, okay, exactly how will this transaction work? What are the technology hurdles? What are the regulatory concerns? What are the things that we need to think about? That's when the learning really accelerates. And so the reaction from central banks from policymakers from regulators has been very positive and with interest to participate in the POC. Thank you. And that question came from LinkedIn. So thank you for all those on LinkedIn as well at streaming there. With also a kind of a question that's talking about is UDM building a new system from scratch or using the best of what's already done with high college ecosystem? Which I think leads on to, we talked a little bit for about open source technology and how is that is helping you and how that involved in your development. So we're obviously using the Hyperledger-Besu protocol as a foundation for the blockchain layer on the UDPN now. Open source and making the UDPN open source is essential for us. Because this is truly a global project. It's initially co-built by GFT and Red Date, but it's very important because it's related to the financial system because it's global. It's essential that we make the software, the business nodes, the key elements of the UDPN open source. So we plan to do that. Anyone can go in as we release it, go in, do code audits, check it out, find bugs, provide input. If you're going to do something in the software space, which is around infrastructure and is truly global, then you need to follow those international standards and open source is one of the best ways to do that. Okay, we're coming in nearly into the last seven minutes. So I think what I'd like to do is maybe look a bit more visionary. So I'll ask each of you, where do you think we will be? How do you envisage, like two or five years time, what UDPN will look like? Of course, these POCs and everything will happen, right? And Taylor, how do you do things? How do you envisage? What's your kind of vision? So I'll go first and then Stefan can give his view. I think, first of all, we're very advanced in this, right? And where the central banks are in their kind of CBDC journey, I would say is very early, right? There are a lot of pilots, there are a lot of tests, there are a lot of simulations, a lot of white papers, but it's still in the early stage. So I really think that in two years' time, you'll start to see some of those early CBDC projects that are in the pilot and testing stage, start to go to production, two years may even be a little bit early, but I think it will take time. I think the activity on the UDPN will be dramatically higher because everyone is gonna be testing all of these things. We have 25 or so, maybe 30 organizations involved in the POCs right now. In two years' time, it'll be in the hundreds in terms of people testing this and understanding, and not just banks, enterprises, other types of technologies. In five years, I think you're starting to get to the early stage of mass adoption of regulated digital payments. And I think it will, in five years, there'll be some big fundamental changes in how payments are made, how they're more efficient, how they're more inclusive, how KYC and AML, all of those important things can be much faster and more efficient. And our goal is that UDPN is a core part of that. Stefan, let me give you your two-year and your five-year and maybe your 10-year and maybe your 10-year. And if Tim, while that, if you can pick out one question you wanna answer and then I'll do the wrap, if you could do the stuff. Stefan. I personally think there's obviously a lot of external factors. And then sometimes you have a little bit of checking and egg problem, right? So you have an infrastructure, you don't have an infrastructure, then why do you need an asset? But you don't have an assets, why do you need to build an infrastructure? And this is the same thing with stablecoins who are coming on board. Financial institutions that we have been talking to as AS, we would like to launch our stablecoin, but give us a business reason for it, right? So it's like now with really this cross-border payments coming along, coming ahead. People wanna do settlement faster. So I believe really, within two years time, we have a lot of financial institutions have started their own stablecoin. I think this will come much earlier than CBDCs actually. So CBDCs will take some time, some time also in the adoption of people living within the country and really adopting that. I believe stablecoins which are issued from banks will come with a lot of more freedom for people to transact. So the adoption rate will be higher and faster on that. But it's really, it will come what we're trying to achieve with European, right? You need this network effect. Network effect with as many as different possible participants using your network because only then exchange in cross-border payments make sense. What we see as well is a lot of these DOCs that we do in different areas of tokenization, they will become fruitful. They will become also like real applications basically which are part of European. And they are also the ones who are able to drive adoption. And I believe in 10 years time, there's a significant piece of cross-border payments will be running over European infrastructure, absolutely. Okay, we're now gonna, I think we're gonna wrap within the last minute or two, right? But what I think I'd like to maybe if we could, I'm sharing the slide again, right? So, and we haven't been able to get to all the questions. Thank you, the audience for enormous numbers of questions are real interest today, right? But how do people continue from both of you? How do people get involved? How do they continue this conversation, find out more? What is your suggestion? I would say, go back to the previous slide, Julien, contact us, reach out, contact us at contact at udpn.io. After our events in Davos, I think we received, 700, 800 contacts, downloads of the white paper, requests for demos. And, we responded to every single one of those contacts. So contact us, let us know what your interest is, let us know what company you're from, how you'd like to be involved. It's important that we get different points of view from different parts of the globe, from different industries. So we welcome all that. Okay, thank you, Stefan, any words? Last words, thank you very much for having us. It was a pleasure. It was also a lot of fun with you to get at Julien and Tim. Yeah, to be honest with you. And so with that, I'd like to say thank you to Stefan and Tim for their expertise. Thank you, the audience out there for listening and for you in the future watching this on YouTube and others. Yeah, get involved. We'll have more information down below in all the information associated with this. And yeah, thank you. Thank you, that was great, really. What great expertise. Thank you for sharing today. Thank you. Thanks, Julien.