 Well, hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Dr. Joe live and today you've got a double treat because you've got Jill square Dr. Jill Krista and I are here today We love to laugh and joke about that and we actually really genuinely like Echo so so funny. Okay. Well everybody, let's if you're live you're witnessing the bloopers Recording so hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of Dr. Jill live and today you've got a double feature double treat with Jill square Dr. Jill Krista and I are here today and as I said a moment ago, we genuinely love one another We're just talking about collaborating in this world and it's really interesting because we have different training backgrounds But we are so aligned in so many of the ways that we think about and I just want to say publicly Dr. Jill That I always learned something from you every time I hear you and it's so fun to be like a lot of people think you know We're both teachers in these realms and so I go in lecture and I do podcasting but the secret of it all is so often I actually learn a ton like it's a total Right total pleasure and joy when I'm getting to talk to people because usually my education is expanding and I'll just say one thing in particular not too long ago you did a mold It was a weekend seminar that was fantastic and one of the things you mentioned that I'm now sharing with my patients is the time inhalation. Yeah. Oh, wonderful. Isn't that amazing. It's amazing and before I introduce you let's just really quick talk about that So maybe I'll let you tell what what it is and how it relates to the mycotoxins because I always have these people I give them antifungal herbals or antifungal prescription sprays because a lot of the colonization as you and I know is a big deal It's almost like you take the mold with you right and they're not getting better and not getting better and like why am I not getting better and obviously if you're colonized you take it with you and that can produce mycotoxins and actually affect you away from the mold exposure. So that solution is to treat that but I was coming across people who would get very bad reactions. So go ahead and tell us just a little bit about that time inhalation and why it's a game changer. Yeah, I mean this is I got to say thank you to my teachers. I mean you said I always learned from you to and everyone has a way of saying things that even if it's something that my brain my thinking brain kind of conceptualize. I didn't own it, you know until I hear some people say it so I just want to acknowledge back that you are one of my teachers too. So my my teachers in hydrotherapy taught me this in naturopathic school, it's using time the herb or the essential oil. You can use it in all different ways it could be fresh it could be dried, but taking a component of that time, and adding it to boiling water, and then tenting your head with just a good old flower sack, you know, towel, and just doing the inhalation. And I've seen this knockout marcons I've seen it knockout MRSA COVID I mean all kinds of stuff. And it makes sense because we you know our sinuses are caverns and caverns and caverns of them. So a spray can only get so far, whereas a vapor can get to all of those tissues, so it can get to those back crevices and things like that. So you basically just tend over it and you stand or there for five minutes three minutes you know it kind of depends on what you, your body can handle. You do want to close your eyes because it's a little stingy on the eyes. This is, you can do it multiple times a day for people who are really congested. And for people who get real congested when they go to bed at night you can do it before you go to sleep and then you can breathe through the night. It's just a lovely, wonderful pearl. Yeah, and it's on YouTube. So if anyone's out there and wants to see the video. I believe any of my patients that link. That's my son doing it. I was like, Oh, yeah, I love it. Yeah, so thank you for those kinds of pearls that you're helping all of us with. I want to go backwards and formally introduce you so Dr. Jill Christ is a pioneering naturopathic doctor bestselling author devoted educator and creative innovator her superpower is to make complex medical concepts simple and adjustable for the average person. Her passion is to elevate the well being of the planet by way of her inhabitants of her books and online courses support those wanting concrete steps to conquer health challenges. She is on conditions that cause injury to the brain and nervous system, including mold, which is both of our loves and hates right. Pan pandas Lyme disease and concussion so again the nice thing is we treat so many similar it's really the I always think the complex chronic illness that we see that people are the end of their road and they've tried other things they're usually in our offices. And in my mind is always toxic load infectious burden and the interplay between those two which is mold and Lyme a lot of times. And then you had the triad of trauma, you know, and it's just like, even if you didn't come into it with trauma, the experience of it is traumatizing. So yeah, it's that. And I know that you know you. That's what this is all about right here. You're right. That's my personal journey I mean that's because I've been through mold I have had had Lyme you know it's all under control but that was part of my aha was my own experience realizing I did all the right stuff and I got to 80%. And then that last 20% was like elusive and tell I went inside started to feel again I was living above the neck and the analytical mind and then I started somatically experiencing and, and one of the things in the research of the books that I found and I knew you see this as well. I know that having mold exposure and the subsequent health issues is traumatic so that's one thing right. Yeah, but it's not a psychological trauma literally there is data that shows the chemical inhalation on the HPA axis and our amygdala, literally triggers the limb response so even if you're like emotionally totally connected and you have all these wonderful resources and you have friends and family and a therapist, you can still just chemical inhalation can trigger trauma. And that was a big aha for me because I realized 100% of our patients who have chronic complex illness have to in some way incorporate trauma healing. Yeah. Oh my gosh you said that so well thank you so much for bringing that up because people do think, you know that there can be that self blame game that can start with this you know when you go down the why question the white tunnel. Well, sometimes it's just, it is what happened to you and it's time to just, you know, tell the body that you're safe again, but that's really hard to do when you have colonization, as you know because that's continuing to our olfactory both those that are listening it's one of the, it's our smell nerve from our brain. It's a really circuitous nerve it kind of goes all the way around the whole inner part of the brain. And when you have mycotoxins because they're fat soluble, they can just ride that olfactory nerve right up to the brain that's one of the four places in our brain that has no blood brain barrier. So there's no barrier to it so the more you're in that mold, the more those toxins you take on, and that is going right through and around the whole limbic system. You know, so you can be like you said the most balanced person. And, and it just trips this trigger of trauma that now you are the person who also has to deal with trauma that you're like I don't I don't have anything I don't have any. I have a good childhood. I have to deal with trauma it's like no no no the chemicals. So I love how you describe that like chemical trauma. Yeah, you too I love that you described the nerve and just for those listening there's one particular person who follows you know some of the social media and always comments he gets really angry when I talk about this because he's like, this is not a psychiatric diagnosis, and we're actually saying the opposite, we're saying this is not psychiatric at all it's not all in your head it's a chemical thing so I think it's so freeing because it's not our fault it's not like we're not well adjusted it's literally this thing that we just have to deal with. And it does need treatment, you know I mean that's some and there's the connection with the pandas pans is that those when those mycotoxins go up into that limbic system. They're also creating enough inflammation and immune confusion that the brain chemist or the brain immune system the microglia start to attack itself. Because it's trying to clear that toxin it's almost like it's trying to prevent those toxins from locking in. This autoimmune response that's causing brain attack in the basal ganglia which is part of our Olympic system. And so these kids live with constant fear constant anxiety, torturous thoughts intrusive thoughts OCD ticks you know all of the whole confluence of symptoms has to do with that area of the brain being irritated so mold is almost always in the picture of that diagnosis. So that's what we want to talk about today is pan and pandas many people listening are really familiar and really educated and they know what that is you kind of described it but let's go back and give a framework for that parent listening or maybe teenage or listening or maybe dad. What would this look like and typically this can be an adults to let's define what is it and then what would it look like in someone coming to the clinic for you or I. So the they have different I get asked a lot why are there two names. So there's pandas and pans. And I think that there should be a third category that is lime associated so whether we call it plans. Like pediatric lime associated neuropsych so pandas is pediatric autoimmune neuropsych condition associated with strap. That's the key with pandas is strap pans opens up that causal aspect to be other infections and what I'm hoping that you know as in functional medicine nature medicine are saying hey by the way that's also toxins that doesn't always have to be an infection. The infection is usually the last straw but the toxins are the thing that build the camel back you know the straws on the camel's back. And then there are some infections like lime and that's the case in in my kids. I have twins with pans and they're 23 now but it all started when they're about three and actually it started in the womb because I had lime and I gave it to them. So they never developed a normal immune system they came into it with hypo gamma globulinemia which means low immunity. And so they had a more gradual onset with pandas and pans it's an acute abrupt change in the child. With the plans or the lime one or congenital infections like Bartonella babesia. That can be a more gradual onset so I acknowledge in the book I'm inappropriately using the term pans for my kids because there isn't a name for it. But the way that they look is similar. Yes, so the way you know the thing that started it is might be different things but the way that it looks in the end is the same because we see the same changes in the brain and the basil ganglia. So, while the clinical criteria are, they talk about things like OCD ticks, disordered eating, those kinds of things changes in behavior regression. When we pull parents and what they're usually bringing kids in for is separation anxiety fears. We might see urinary frequency bedwetting some of that stuff regression for sure handwriting changes, behavioral changes social changes. So we may not see necessarily OCD and the way you'd see it in an adult, like frequent hand washing, you may see it. It's very much part of these conditions, but OCD and a kid can look kind of different. Because they're acting through their compulsion is a behavior, their session is this thought, and they won't, they don't necessarily have the insight, like an adult would that this is not a normal way of thinking, like to think that maybe you're not my parent maybe an imposter stepped into you. That's, that's something that adult would be like, wow, I'm, I'm not really sure what that thinking is but you know I'm going to avoid that person but when it's a child they have no choice. They have to act out that intrusive thought through a compulsion. Yeah, and that can be acting out through fears. So fears is a huge part of this which makes sense when we talk about the location in the brain, you know, that's limbic. So of course they're going to be half years. Yeah, what a great way to explain it because you're right the OCD and children doesn't always present like we would think, because they're in their brain, you know this this thought is that when we talk about rumination or intrusive thoughts is like a record player around and around and around and so inside they may be like, oh my gosh I gotta close that door I gotta check the door I gotta or I'm so this this may not be my parent or whatever kind of thing or, or, and then I also find in a lot of my, you know, moms and dads that bring in their children is the aggressive behaviors and some of these things are very out of character. Do you want to describe a little bit of how that can present because I find that for that the poor parent is also traumatized because they're dealing with this they love their child they want to be there for them and their child is literally beating them up sometimes even breaking bones and things and a little about that to normalize for parents experience because this is so I have such deep compassion for both the parent and the child. Right. Yeah, this is, we can see aggression a lot especially when there's Bartonella and as part of that picture because aggression, anger, irritability that's kind of part of the Bartonella picture. And I think that just has to do with a certain kind of chemicals or cytokines that the Bartonella induces in that brain and the limbic system, but it's quite common to see that. And the way that I think of it as like a cornered animal, you know, so you have again a child who has no choice who has little agency in their in their daily existence. So if you have a parent who's a strap carrier, no matter what condition you have if it's panned as pans or lime, strep then becomes kryptonite, no matter if it wasn't strep that started it strep can be the kryptonite for them because it's the dominant respiratory pathogen. And lots of people are walking around being strep carriers because we have, you know, glyphosate and messed up guts and all those things. So if you have a parent or a sibling or a pet or something like that that is a carrier of something that is agitating that immune system. And the truth is that there are pheromones and I'm finding more and more data as I'm creating I have a practitioner training course on pandas and pans. I'm finding these evidence of these pheromones that can be mosquito attractors that can be tick attractors. So of course, why wouldn't it also be something that's communicating to a sick kid through the smell nerve. So it's safe stay away from that person but then if they're forced to be with the person do things that they just don't have energy for be with the pet who maybe as a bartonella carrier, then it's cornered animal time. So then it's an acting out toward the parent or the sibling or the pet or those kinds of things. Yeah, I think paying attention to behaviors tells you everything about what's going on with that kid. So if it's repeated handwashing, I always tell the family, is that child having to wash hands for all of you. Because maybe you guys are all the ones that are carrying the germs that are hard on that kid. And so they're having to do all of it for you and it's amazing when the family starts washing hands, cleaning doorknobs, cleaning countertops. Wow. Hey everybody, I just stopped by to let you know that my new book, Unexpected, Finding Resilience through Functional Medicine, Science and Faith is now available for order wherever you purchase books. In this book, I share my own journey of overcoming life threatening illness and the tools and tips and tricks and hope and resilience I found along the way. This book includes practical advice for things like cancer and Crohn's disease and other autoimmune conditions, infections like Lyme or Epstein Bar and mold and biotoxin related illness. What I really hope is that as you read this book, you find transformational wisdom for health and healing. If you want to get your own copy, stop by readunexpected.com. There you can also collect your free bonuses. So grab your copy today and begin your own transformational journey through functional medicine in finding resilience. Wow, that's brilliant. Just like always you just like my job like that makes so much sense. It makes so much sense. Interesting story, I was at the farmer's market maybe a month or two ago with a real good friend of mine is a neuropsychologist and we all of a sudden there's this commotion as we walked into our cars and there was a police fan and there was a couple of people standing there. And my friend is such a compassionate, beautiful soul. She often goes towards that because she's neuropsychologist and she has the ability to kind of reach in and like help. I was and I ended up leaving but later I heard there was this young man about 1718 and sister and mother, and he had bitten his sister like taking a chunk of flesh out of her arm. And mother was like a little bit bruised. I mean he was very violent so the police were like and they beautiful thing was in our city of Boulder like this policeman were like giving him a bear hug and like holding him down but with such kindness and compassion. Like she came on and she said Jill, I cannot believe our police force how compassion and they must add some training because otherwise you would just like handcuff this boy and like you know take him off. It was total like giving safety through bodily like, like, like a blanket weighted blanket right, and then the mom and the sister were there and of course they were, they knew this boy and they knew and it was clearly like as we talk and later after I heard this from her I'm like, oh that sounds like a pan pan this case doesn't like, or I mean it couldn't have been drugs or like. Yeah, he was young enough that and it was one of the things with a mother and daughter explained they dealt with this frequently like it wasn't uncommon. And they both of course loved him but they were also getting hurt in the process and it just reminded me how that can certainly of course there could have been other things involved but it was a fairly young person with a family that knew that this behavior was common. And what I loved was that the police in our city were so kind and compassionate, because somehow they understood that this wasn't just a bad behavior. And then my friend went in there and actually started to explain it was helping the mother and daughter deal with their trauma and, but in my mind it's like that would be exactly how a pan or pandas could present in public right. Yeah, because then in public if if your boundaries are down. So that's how that's what starts this in the first place is their immune system is down. They didn't, they didn't have what they needed to deal with the last infection. And then you put them into a public place. So first of all their fears are up their sensory system they are like tuned into everything is going to harm me, and you put them in a public place. And then if there are any kind of infections or toxins, it can just, you know, tip over the, we talk about the toxin cup, you know, each of us has a different sized cup that we can handle those toxins. And you fill up, you fill up the cup or the bucket and then it starts to spill over will spill over in these kids case activates microglia in the brain which is our immune system the resident immune system of the brain. I call them monkeys. So hashtag monkeys in the mind. And when they're bad. They not only scream, they recruit other monkeys to get mad and they start flinging poop. And that can just totally short out a brain and a lot of times these kids don't remember their that the acting out of it. So it's as traumatizing to the family who's receiving this. And then the kid who snaps back in once that cytokine storm rushes through the brain, and they see the result of their behavior or their action and it's horrible then that starts the self blame thing. And it has to be happening. It's all treatable. Yeah, so I wrote them up. I love it. Dr. Jill. And this reminds me again a patient had in the clinic he was about seventh grade and is in same exact kind of behaviors and in the clinic in front of me he would cry, because he nearly his mother and his mother loved him and he loved his mother and he was like realizing and of course in the clinic at the moment when he's he's stable the cytokines are down. And I can see this interplay and I like had such deep compassion for both the mother and the son because. He's realizing the extent of his behavior he didn't want to be that way he's so what you see right like. Of course. Yeah, they don't want to act that way nobody does no one right right and then so and harm the people that you love and that love you and yeah. And so much we can do. We have so many tools for these kids. Yeah, so let's say so there's a lot of clinicians who listened to us as well and what would you suspect so we kind of got a framework of what a parent might see in the kids and the OCD behaviors or the other things that might present like OCD. What about a clinician what questions might they want to ask, what way would they maybe know that this could be on the differential. I think again I think I hope that people will see the clinical criteria and then think a little bit broader than that and remember this is a clinical diagnosis so you don't have to have a positive test of any kind. Tests are helpful when you say, I'm not really sure the, you know that complete target or the, you know the things that contributed to this it's great to test so that you have that information. Really if you're seeing the things that fall into that clinical criteria of like we talked about OCD ticks, eating restriction or eating changes regression anger irritability bed wedding urinary frequency is a big part of this even though it didn't make the clinical criteria and fears, fears, fears, fears and separation anxiety and that may not be to a person that may be to their room, or their bed, or their bathroom, or their toilet, we have some kids who don't want to leave the toilet. And to me I'm like well then we already know it's going on with them their microbiome is a mess and we need to go there, you know they're telling us this is a potty problem. And if you're seeing that kind of pattern, and to be classic it would be an acute abrupt change from a completely normal kid, boom, and then something happened and it seems like the kid was stolen overnight so to speak. But if it doesn't have the acute. Remember there's this other third diagnosis category that we need to start defining that is gradual onset from congenital or from increasing environmental toxin load. And also congenital infections but also congenital toxins because we can give mycotoxins, but this, you know, gradual environmental load, and I know you, you know raised in farmland. You got all kinds of that. I was thinking of you this morning I just they, the plane came over my house he turns over my house and I was like, oh yeah. My mom about this too I mean she had some chronic fatigue or migraines and looking back I'm sure in utero like there was a huge but I don't know what percentage but same as as you're mentioning I think that that was something we actually don't talk about enough. And the year that I got diagnosed with breast cancer which is over 20 years ago now 2001 that was the Canada study on cord blood that showed out of the womb babies were being tested and they had over 200 toxic chemicals in the cord blood and so this is plus 20 years later it's only got to be worse than that and that's not infections. Right, right, not even adding in those infections. Yeah, so if clinicians are seeing that just remember that you know see the clinical criteria, open that up a little bit to you know the fears are definitely ever present separation anxiety is there urinary frequency we see generalized abdominal pain which again makes sense when we think about the toxins and the infection load we see that with a lot of conditions that express those. And then the abruptness they may not have but that's the classic case is going to be an abrupt overnight onset. So if it's not abrupt overnight that kind of informs you that this is probably not a strep induced thing that now we go looking for different types of infections to induce it. A flu is very common to be the thing that starts it. mono and a teenager is a very common thing because the herpes family which mono is in the herpes family as you know I'm just sharing with others. That loves the nerves. So that's going to be something that is a common neurological trigger for these kids and Kobe now that we have Kobe it's right in the Vegas nerve. It can get right in the brain through the Vegas nerve it can, you know, so that's become another big factor for these kids. So if a clinician is seeing those those might be the things that they're looking at, and parents will when you say, well it's not abrupt. And when you go back and you look, there was probably an abrupt onset, but it looked, the kid covered it up. So it might be like a classic line one is if there's a spiral to the tick, then you know there's a Borrelia somewhere in there in my clinical experience. It's like this or, you know, and it just might be something that looks cute, and they may work that because that the obsession builds builds builds builds builds builds builds builds in their brain and then it's like they need to discharge it. So they might adjust their chair and do this and you're just like full of energy and you know, or jumping when they stand up jumping three times or ticks like that might be a vocal tick. They might start humming and you're like oh this kid loves to sing and hum. So it can look very mild, and still be the autoimmune, you know the whole inflammation thing going on. And if we can catch it when it's mild if we can raise awareness that these are things that are unusual, you know, to have a kid jump three times and they stand up, that's neurological inflammation. Let's catch it now. Then you don't have to have the kid that ends up biting the sister at the farmer's market. Yeah, exactly. That was a really good overview clear for I think clinicians. So then obviously we have to look for infections and stuff but what would you what would the clinician go about as far as, and I want to mention you have a course so we'll be sure and link that up so if you want to know more. It's in the book a light in the dark and is it it's a light in the dark for pain and pandas by Dr. Joe Christa so be sure and take that out and we'll link up to all your courses and stuff but where would we start as far as work up I'm sure the involves and then where would you start as far as treatment so let's take us through those kind of basics. Yeah, so because strep is such a player. We definitely want to assess for their reaction to strap the key is though there are kids who because they're immune deficient, don't test well on antibody based tests. So just know that there are zero negative pandas positive kids. So meaning that their blood can be completely normal and they can still have pandas or pans. So strep is a really good thing to assess it first. And that would be the whole family, because there can be strep carriers so usually the kid who has the pandas or pans. Remember strep is important once it starts because it's the dominant pathogen and strep is so widely. We just because you had strep before so one strep strain immunity does not confirm immunity to any other strep strain. And strep has all of these endotoxins that are unique to that strain. So a different strep experience can induce different types of symptoms. So that's where you get the kid who moved from urinary frequency to ticks to fears and you're just like, you know, what is it well it can still be strapped every single time because the endotoxins are so different. So I would assess throat culture, what we find with these kids. And with strep in general strep, the antibodies are much more complex than we thought. So a rapid strep if it's positive it's positive, it's negative. Still follow up with the culture, because the culture is needed in these cases. So that means the kid and the family. Don't worry about pets because strep is a is a human pathogen, but pets can carry it from a sick family member to another family member through licks and you know through saliva. So if you have a family member with a strep infection on their skin or something like that, or has been kissing the dog and then the dog goes over and kisses the kid with pandas, that's going to flare the kid. So we typically see in a family, the kid with pandas strep is long gone, but someone in the family is still positive, or they have strep on their bottom period anal strep is a very common hidden cause. And then the child is just continuously auto toxin themselves every time they go to the bathroom or they might, you know, it's their bottom because strep on the bottom is kind of irritating and sore. And while they're sleeping, they may touch that, and then touch their mouth and that's how that they can get strep in their tonsils again. So cases of, there's a lot of discussion of whether you, you give these kids tonsillectomies or not. And, you know, we have a lot we can treat that with but if we've done all the perfect things and there we've for sure cleared perianal strep with a culture, not within rapid. And then they may benefit from tonsillectomy but that's a, that's a clinician clinician and family decision, but I've had many many cases where they were slated for tonsillectomy and I said, let's just, let's just get started on some stuff and see. And they didn't have to have the tonsils removed. So, you know, but there are cases where we do and it really helps the kid. So ASO and strep design, those would be some blood tests that we would see anti DNAs be those are kind of like the iPad strap and I'm having a bad reaction to strap kind of labs. Those are great to run to for classic pandas I'm finding the Cunningham panel fits that classic pandas better as very expensive tasks. So if it's something where you're having a hard time convincing family members teachers to do a special learning or something like that and you need something on paper. That's one to use for a classic pandas case. I've seen it miss pans and plans or whatever the line one is. Yeah, so the strep picture you need to get really clear on for the kid and the whole family. And you would do that regardless of mold or line because that's such a big trigger even in the underlying toxicity and other infections right so that the take care of that if that's present that makes sense. What about this is an interesting thing with gbs positive mother so group beta strap is real common they test every woman now with pregnancy and treat them. Is that a strain and could a baby coming out of the vaginal cavity through birth, get struck. So we don't have any studies but those treating pandas and pans say yes absolutely there's a correlation. So, moms who are gbh groupie strap positive definitely had higher rates of having something neuro atypical happening with with the kids. That's a great question. Yeah, because in you to all these things are actually interesting I was one of those five years with the tonsils removed because so so I couldn't breathe I was foaming at them like it was so bad completely obstructing. And of course now in hindsight, I have an immune deficiency I probably did from birth and so all this stuff is relative. I know so many people it's like in the parents, a lot of times it's the parents that are like a mom usually. Yeah, oh my gosh could I do I have this, you know, like exactly, like, oh yeah. So then treatment right. Obviously what I love about you is you always bring a lot of really natural pearls that I wouldn't have known because I wasn't taught in all of epic medicine. And you start there. So how would you start and then obviously gets severe. What would you go to for prescription. So, the, I wanted to, to put my core 10 things that I use with most pandas pans patients in my book and I thought, Oh gosh think back when my kids are sick 10 things I would read that and throw the book against the wall. You're right. Okay, discipline yourself Jill. So I came up with core for our thing. So for basic things that we need to make sure we're paying attention to number one is tame the flame. Because we can't anything else that we do is going to poke the bear, and that's going to cause more flame. So taming the flame second is beat the bugs. Third is regulate immunity so we need that immune modulation and the four is guard the gates. So if we're not stopping the toxins, and you know if we don't get them out of mold. They're not going to get better so we have to do something to guard the gates which would be, you know, basically I have the gates are the nasal gate the throat gate. You know just kind of thinking about all of the ways that the body can be exposed and then you know environmental exposures. So tame the flame are going to be things that are reducing inflammation in general that are specific to the basal ganglia, like pro resolving mediators. It's a wonderful. So tame it as like, coding over a frayed nerve, you know, so it just coats things. Because mold is often in the picture and there's often a histamine problem, while I would love to use all whole fish oil. Some of these kids have histamine issues and can't tolerate that so we just use the pro resolving mediators which are very targeted. I describe it to my parents it's the most anti inflammatory part of a fish oil that usually doesn't induce histamine. I wanted to just say I love that because I am my number one I also often use that instead of officials even adults and it is profound and it's anti prostaglandin so it's kind of anti mast cell by nature. Yeah, yeah so it calms that part down. So in the tame the flame category kind of have like the general anti inflammatory and then the mast cell managers. And even if you need to, obviously, you know, and say, I'm a huge fan because it can get a kid out of a crisis like that kid at the farmers market. Yeah, I put him on, you know, my, my get out of jail free card is fever few and combine it with neproxen or, or ibuprofen. And, you know, just give them two weeks of a pharmaceutical grade dose of that, and you can really calm things down and it gives you that open window to start to play with the other things. So like rosemary fever few. These are beautiful plants for getting the flame down, and then our mass cell managers that we're very familiar with, you know, one of my favorites is nettles because it does both anti histamine part it blocks histamine receptors, but it stabilizes the mass cells. And the funniest thing is, I didn't even remember to put it in my book. Oh, that's what I did with it later. I was like, okay, well, I got to get the data about PEA and I got to talk. Oh, and all the, and just like the stuff that you use every day. I did that in my mold book I didn't talk about bus to the Colleen I was just like, Oh yeah. Next. Next edition. Yeah, and then beat the bugs. Yeah, I kind of have four categories in there. One category is called the botanical avatars, which are my favorite thing to talk about. And avatar is like an ideal. So it basically, these are plants that are not only anti strap, but they hit all the other mechanisms that are going on with the kid, including balancing brain chemistry. So we're finding in the most recent studies, these cholinergic interneurons so the communication between the neurons that use acetylcholine to communicate. These are getting destroyed in the in the process so there's something happening there at that neuron. So if we can find these botanical plants that address strap reduce neuro inflammation, have some action on the cholinergic and address the gut address the kidneys in the urinary tract that is you know this frequency reduce pain because these kids live with a lot of central mediated pain which means pain that starts in the brain up regulating pain. So these, these plants are just beautiful so things like Chinese skull cap, Oregon grape root, Bacopa, and they all kind of have their separate thing that they do so in my book I talk about the personality of the plant. So you can look at the personality of kids like are they really like you talked about really boggy swamp you know then we would go for the things that are from a swamp, you know that that love to live there because they're coming with that knowledge. Yeah, so that I, that's the foundation of pretty much every formula I do for a kid I pick a botanical avatar or two that you know matches them. And then that's the foundation and then we add in the other things you know things that reduce inflammation, the things that are maybe. The other part of beat the bugs is finding things that are anti the bug you think you're dealing with so if it was mono that started it for a teenager, we would want to make sure to put in things like licorice that would have some activity against that particular virus. Yeah, and then pharmaceuticals I mean I think probably the best tool in my entire book is available to everybody if you want to go to my website it's a medication compatibility chart. Because that's what I heard a lot from parents when I was working with them is, I'm scared to do this with the augmentin or I'm scared to do this with the serotonin drug. Can this be done at the same time so I just created a chart that shows what is safe so it's all the natural stuff that we do for pan and pans. On the left side and not all of them but the things I talked about my book, and then the medications across the top and you can just go and find, you know, okay to do because I thought, I'm just going to answer those questions for people. We don't have data on everything. Yeah, but the main is so important I love. Yeah, you know and then we, we, I just say to parents, pay attention to the ones that have a big mark note. And pretty much everything else. I feel very comfortable as a practitioner doing combining and have for two decades so. I want to go on to the next two steps that I just want to mention you mentioned colonergic neurons so there's a study that just came out recently on post COVID long COVID symptoms using nicotine. You know nicotine is an acetylcholine receptor. And we know with from old studies on ulcerative colitis and it was always question people like why in the world would nicotine work well. It hits acetylcholine receptors no wonder. Now I'm not going recommending for pain and pandas kid you have nicotine or for most people, you give a lot of nicotine but I'm using that sense right and it actually is right in a line with what you're saying is that when they're blocked or affected or inflamed or infected. Those colonergic are all about our brain and our executive function and it really is a big deal and so to me it was like no wonder nicotine works in long COVID sometimes right. Thank you. You had even posted about micro dosing and being really careful about doses which I agree with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't shy away from doing this so kids I prefer to use whole plants I'm using tobacco tincture, and we have an amount of how much nicotine per male it is and so we can be really safe. But the key is that colonergic interneuron anywhere where acetylcholine can bind it's nicotinic acetylcholine receptors. It has really high affinity for that and it's gonna bump spike protein off. So you want to make sure that you have something that's going to degrade that spike protein or you could put the kid into a little bit of a hyper coagulable state. So that's when we're using enzymes, you know just to make sure that we're breaking down that. Like lumbrocinase, natocinase, seropeptase, all the above. Yeah, yeah. Brilliant. And if the kid doesn't tolerate those we will just do like eat the pop pain and the bromelain yummy little treats. Just get some or robine at all. Because I have I made that mistake of just like, oh nicotine has high affinity and then you know I ended up with patients who are you know they were like a kid who has Vesia kind of has that purpley. Yes. Nails and they would come in and they were just purple. I'm like, oh my goodness. Oh wait. Yeah. Vitamin E enzyme, let's go. Yes. Oh, brilliant, brilliant pearl. As always. So those are the first two steps then what are the last the last. So regulating immunity of course this can be no surprise to you is gut, you know we've got to get the gut going we have to increase vitamin D. One thing we know about mycotoxins is they down regulate the vitamin D receptor and the kidneys and the intestines. So people need to re up regulate that and the way you do that is to flood the body with vitamin D for a period of time. So for about a three month time I want them between 60 and 90 nanograms per milliliter vitamin D OH. So that we can get those receptors up regulated again. It's similar to how we use the naltrexone and naltrexone is also part of that peptides are very useful in that category. And I am in love right now with something new that I've learned about which is post biotics. Yeah, I just, I, you've probably already on top of this but I just think it's so brilliant it's basically just sterilized poop because how are, how are we to know it's like a FMT, you know if you can find a transplant, you can take orally. And then we're not picking and choosing you know gee I wonder what strain or tide or nucleotide or bile acid that this gut needs. And they're getting all of it in the body can choose what it wants and so I'm seeing really good results from that but you do have to sprinkle it in at first because people are getting die off. Yeah. You're just so strong and helpful right. Yeah. Guard the gates. So we want to make sure that we're guarding the nasal gate because that is the area of colonization kind of circles back to where we started the dental gate so there are certain things you know these kids end up with terrible because they get behind on dental cleanings and can end up with a lot of dental stuff. So just simple things like chewing xylitol gum there was a study. They had the kids choose xylitol gum for five minutes after every meal. And you know, I think it was actually even two meals a day, and they showed a dramatic reduction of strep mutants and a dramatic reduction of dental carries someone like one kid wouldn't like that. Yeah, you know, did you chew your gum. Yeah, and then the throat you know using things like colloidal silver on the throat for sprays propolis those kinds of things have been shown to be really, really beneficial. And then environmental we just want to make sure that we're the environmental gate is both infections so using pre treated clothing if you're in a tick area using tick tubes if you have a yard that where your kid is playing Dr Alexis Chesney just presented that for families that are using this year after their tick population is going down to where they're not having any troubles with it so there's a lot of preventive things that we could be doing that are non toxic. And then, of course, mold mold mold, make sure you're assessing for mold. Yeah, and I know it's amazing so be sure and grab your copy if you're listening you want to get more because this is so common and probably if you're listening some of you are like, Oh, I wonder and you're thinking about your child or nephew or niece or someone in your family or someone that you know of, because this is actually way more common than it's. It's, I mean it was I remember like even in medical school was barely talked about now it's just like mold right these things are actually really common and because of the increasing toxic loaded infectious burden. It's just way way more common. Personally, you went through this with your kiddos and obviously healthy but what was the biggest lesson or insight like if you could go back to yourself as an early mom. What would you tell yourself as an early mom with all that you've been through and you know come out with healthy kiddos through this and a book and the knowledge. For me, I knew something wasn't right, but I couldn't, I wasn't getting believed so it's very similar to the mold thing. And as the behavior started to go up, I was doing this whole circus act to keep everybody normal and I had a ton of tools. That was one thing I learned was like, Okay, this problem is, is that the dopamine receptors are getting destroyed so these kids are getting destroyed so if I use herbs that are dopaminergic. My kids had an opposite reaction to those things so like passion flower, lemon balm, all these things that we would typically think are going to calm them down. They would go the other way and I couldn't understand what's going on. So anyway as the behaviors were going on, and I'm doing the circus act of you know all using all my tools, and I had a lot of support. You can start to think of your world because it does get a little smaller, as people don't necessarily feel comfortable around the behaviors. You can start to feel like smaller means less support. So I want people to rewrite that false belief, you can have a small, hugely supportive environment around you and you can build that what I call the dream team you know you get your people around you that understand your kid don't judge you as a parent are part of the solution of the throat culture. Just to say you know oh they kind of flared when they were with you, do you mind if your kid gets a throat culture so we can kind of see, you know, so some of those things. They get complicated interpersonal things that happen, but trust yourself, you know your kid better than anyone and if you have a doctor that is not on board, move immediately because it's going to add trauma to your kid and to you. And that's brilliant wisdom because again, whether you're dealing with a child with pain or pandas, or yourself with mold, or Lyme disease or any of the things that we talk about every day on this podcast and in most of our offices. It is one of the biggest traumas I see is what you just spoke of and that's you infect even I have that I mean I've been through my doctor was like, Oh, I has nothing to do with this or oh it's all in your head on the mold and I actually try to avoid doctors. But there is that piece of like what you just said that if we leave our listeners with one thing it's like in your heart as a mother, or as a person of patient in your own body. You know your body or system you're born with more than anyone else and there's an intuition and innate wisdom that is always giving you feedback. And usually it is, I would say, nearly 100% of the time it is right on the money, but we suppress it because I'm like, oh that's silly that's super I'm overreacting right so I just inconvenience other people. Yes. Yeah. So I really, really love that you emphasize that and especially in these cases because the parents are wanting so bad to help their children and they're overwhelmed and exhausted and and then even doubting when the parents like or the. I'm just going to tell you another little story. My older brother, when he was very young, he was inviting other children very young, you know, and like back I'm like, I bet my older brother had some brain inflammation he's fine now and I if he listened to this which he probably does, he's amazing he's brilliant, but looking back just like me with my tonsils right we both had these things going on. And I remember my mom actually went to get some help with a doctor or someone else and they were like, Oh it's you're a poor mother like they literally criticized her motherhood and she never went back. Right. And we got the help and I look back and I got that. I got, you know, are you sure you're you're getting enough sleep to be patient with your kids, you know, kind of insinuating on beating on my children. So yeah, I mean, that as doctors we have to be very careful what we project out there, you know, and, and trust our patients I feel like that's the unique thing about us having enough time with our patients we can really be present with them and that's just not available to a lot of doctors. So they get compassion fatigue, they get burned out, and they're not bringing their best to that situation to so yeah I just feel so grateful for the way that I get to do the work I do. Yeah. So if you're listening be sure and grab a copy of a light in the dark by Jill Krista that's out. When did it come out Joe. November. Yeah, November last year. Okay, very cool. Thank you for being to your courses and of course to the book and everything. And as always thank you not only just for being here and sharing your wealth of knowledge but also just for the compassion you bring, and the you have such a brilliant way of taking very complex topics, and making them simple and bite size and understandable and I'm sure those listening can say amen to that. Thank you. I put a lot of intention into that so that means a lot. Thank you, especially coming from a master communicator. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you and we'll be back because Jill Square does not go in anywhere right. Awesome. Thank you so much for your time today.