 I'm born in Liechtenstein, a country with 38,000 inhabitants. I think we have to reimagine and to tell stories to influence change. Liechtenstein is a good starting point to do so, because here you can think big and nothing is impossible. That's why we have started to sell stories that we could imagine, because everything you can imagine is real. And we thought it was a moment to do something. That was the reason why we started the nonprofit foundation, the System Change Foundation, with the World Systemic Forum and the Who's. The Who's is a house, where are happening up, where we try to think different. We all know technology has to be part of the solution, but it is more than technology. We need as well behavior change and policy change. Systemic change needs creative ideas and the willingness to reimagine. With our approach, with our World Systemic Forum and the Who's, we hope to reimagine. We bring together opinion leaders, position makers, creative minds, capital, what you need to reimagine. Imagination is the starting point of everything. ["The Who's"] Rudolph Rudy Hilti is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Rudy is an entrepreneur and visionary from Liechtenstein. Rudy considers himself a global citizen, a responsible optimist and change maker who invests his emotional and financial resources exclusively in projects which are aligned with his values, focusing on integrity and sustainability. Rudy is, among others, the co-founder of the Systems Change Foundation and the Think and Do Tank, the Who's Institute, a platform to explore the transformation of the old economy into an ecologically as well as economically sustainable digital modern era. The foundation sees itself as a value-based global village for the global topics to rethink systems and global challenges historically independent of higher national interests. Welcome, Rudy. It's so good to see you again. Hi, Mark. Pleasure to see you. I'm glad you're on the show and thank you for taking the time to speak with us today. For our listeners, Rudy and I have known each other for a while. We met originally in Italy at H Farm at an event that was there. And we got to discussing about the sustainable development goals and about infrastructure specifically for Liechtenstein and some of the projects that he was working on. And then later, I actually traveled to Liechtenstein and was part of an event that I'm wearing the button for right here on my lapels, a transformer button or lapel pin. And we had a transformational event where I spoke but I participated with a group of wonderful thought leaders who are thinking about the future and where we're going about sustainable development. We had a wonderful workshop and our paths have crossed many times since then. And so I'm very excited to finally in your busy schedule have some time to have a deep dive, talk and discussion. Your introduction that I gave is your biography was rather short because I know you've been around for a while, you've done a lot of things, you traveled the world. Did I leave anything out, anything you want to touch on that's maybe important for your listeners to know a little insight into Rudy? No, I think you mentioned a lot. I think what I am, it's a rethinker and I'm born in a really special circumstance. In a country, it's more or less a village with 38,000 inhabitants. And that's making me a bit special in thinking because I think in complex systems, ecosystems, I am born with it so that's super simple. Yeah, that's probably part of your creative side where you're not only an artist and creative in many, many different ways and surround yourself with all sorts of wonderful people. Let's dive right into the first question which was also mentioned in your biography. You consider yourself a global citizen and that is always one of my standard first questions. The reason I ask it is one, I want to know with you traveling the world, do you truly feel like a global citizen and if the future held for you, one without borders, nations, divisions, limitations, how would you feel about that or is it already the case for you? Yeah, but I think you're not a global citizen because of traveling a lot or seeing a lot of things. It's more about the philosophy you share. So I really do not see any difference between different nations because if you're open-mind, if you have a lot of friends from different, these different backgrounds, you can meet them as well in Switzerland or I met many different nationalities here at home as well. I think it's more about what connects us as humans and it's not the nation, it's not the passport, not at all. I think it's just a small world with all the same and we have all the same problems, this climate change and now we have to accept that we cannot solve these problems by closing the borders and work by saying we are different than the others. I think they're all together in this. I totally agree and that's why I ask, you're absolutely right, it has nothing to do with traveling or nations and borders. It has more to do with being part of a symbiotic earth connected to all the other homo sapiens and species on our planet. It's because as well we are one click away of everyone and everything, so we are so close. Yeah, it used to be six degrees of separation. I think it's gotten even smaller in times and in this digital technological age that we're in, hopefully getting out of the industrial revolution that we're really in an age where we're more connected than ever and if we realize that we're part of this symbiotic earth, that it really makes us more compassionate and also realize that we are in some respects this global citizen or this part of the symbiotic earth. That brings me to another thing. Why did you start your family? Foundations, why did you get on that path? Was there an aha moment or something that was getting at you said, I need to create this? What was the thought or the journey behind that? I think one thing was that what I mentioned that I grew up in a country with more or less a village but it's a whole country and it works, is all is like a big country but there's nothing impossible because it's so easy to know everyone and I grew up with attitude that I understand more or less the complex situation or between the different sectors. But that was just the beginning or I think something I grew up with. And then once there was, it's like a mentor of mine. He told me, there's someone you have to meet and then it was a futurist, Christopher Paterka. Then I met him and then he was talking about the future, where the future is going to and how it looked like and but more as a futurist, just in thinking. And then I mentioned the idea why not doing it, not only thinking about it, that was then the birthplace of the action tank to whose institute we create the think and action tank because in the end it's all about what you can imagine. And for me, it was always so in a way I thought I can imagine a whole ecosystem and everything starts small, right? Everything starts in a lab. A smartphone, I think it was started in a lab not on a global market. So somewhere it has to start. And that was the birth. Yeah, it was. I mean, I recently shared a movie with a bunch of my friends, General Magic, which is a documentary about the beginnings of the smartphone and a lot of other transitions, that not only Apple and others had, had Barack Berkowitz as I think you know him as well from MIT Media Labs, the director of operations and strategy with him. And so we spoke about that as well, that there's this journey of the future, this journey of innovations and things. You've brought up your history or fortunate to be born into a certain, not only Liechtenstein, but I think there was a lot of ties to the industrial revolution or into different ways of doing things, things that the world needed to see. And I believe in our past discussions or in our past crossings, there's this more and more emerging that we need another shift, another transition. Can you go into that a little bit more of what the thought process is and how that journey has been? Because it wasn't just the hoose, it was a couple other things along the way besides Christopher, it was a couple other things that happened along the way. And it's kind of starting to evolve and emerge. Sure, because I think sometimes you feel the moments when you have to do it, you feel it. And I think that was the point as well when we came to God, as well when I got to know you, Mark, I think that was this moment, you feel it that you have to do it. And I think that was the same here in Liechtenstein that you understand how Liechtenstein worked. I think it was after the Second World War, people really realized there's something going on. So now it's a time to change. And it was as well in my family. So in my family, we had many successful people, especially from an industrial age. So my grandfather was part of a huge food company or he was the founder and his brother started a huge tools company and all this. And this happened in one family. And I think it's because if someone starts audible, you think bigger, right? And it's what I mentioned as well. Everything you can imagine, it starts what you believe you can do that you will do. And that's as well the moment for us that you say, let's start a place where no national agenda, because it's too small. And then what we do, it's not for Liechtenstein, it's just for having one place where we can think bigger and different, but it's not for the country itself, even a bigger idea. And then we have seen the power of storytelling because if you believe in it, you do it. And it starts with a story. Can you tell me about the beginning of the Who's Institute a little bit, what the platform is about and about the transformation? And then let's go into the World Systems Change Foundation as well, so kind of both. I don't know if you feel that they're too tied together of one's a learning off of the other, but there's kind of in the journey, there's a process there that I'd like to hear, maybe understand fully. I think it's all connected, it's one movement. And we have our Who's Plan or Master Plan and it started with to find a story that could be imagined, something completely. And I think that's why Liechtenstein came into the play because here we really can think big, not seeing it like a lab, but just finding one place where you really can rethink policies or where you can rethink structures from governments working together with private sectors, what else? It's just a place where you can think big, right? And the second step was to build a global network of opinion leaders, of decision makers, of creative minds, of scientists, all you need for systemic change, right? That was the second step, what we said we wish to do with the Who's. And the third one was then to stimulate discussion around the topic of system change. In the beginning, we thought, okay, we have to be the platform to push a country or to help a country to find the right examples to do. But now we realized something is better just to stimulate the discussions around that, that others will join the journey. And you always have to ask yourself how to influence change, right? Then we do this through storytelling and through a strong network because if you have a strong network, you can think bigger. And then the fourth step was to find the right rules and guidelines together. And the fifth step was to build a culture around this, a new common understanding with independent organized workshops of the Who's, hopefully. So it's five steps starts with imagination, second was a network, third was discussions and examples. The fourth one was guidelines in the fifth is a sustainable culture we would like to create. And for this we have, I think on the top we have the system change foundation and non-profit foundation in Waddux. If the Who's as a physical house, as a happening hub, and then for sure we have as well, this World Systemic Forum. You have been part since day one. Yeah. Thank you. And all together should we would like to create a momentum for change. There definitely has been a momentum and it was not only a safe space for discussion and for coming together to collaborate, to meet the right people, the thought leaders. And it was, as you know, when you're are there as well. So much different type of conversation and that happens at Davos at the World Economic Forum. It's one that a lot of even more important discussions and thoughts and collaborations and unification towards a new direction of thought leadership. So creating not only the story, but the opportunity to discuss things that maybe aren't happening, that aren't occurring in our world. So very thankful to be included, but I also really enjoy those times and things that are happening. What can we expect to see coming up in the future from the world systemic form and the world system change foundation? What are some things, some irons in the fire that you're working on, directions that is going? I think for us, it's really the creative approach is an important thing because what we believe that you have to forgot many things which was built for the industrial age. We are in a completely new time which works completely different. As well, the digital transformation or this digital disruption, I think that's a great thing because everything will change radically and it's good because everything has to change radically. And we would like to be there to say, how can we be a bridge builder for change, but not trying to adapt just the old and do it a bit different or start a bit greenwashing or all this. We really start from the scratch from the bottom, but we keep it, we make it in a way tangible. Now back to the point where we started in Lichtenstein, I think make it immaturable that, and then if you do this, you can really have a starting point for change. And yeah, it starts with us and we all together we built the movement, the momentum for change. Is that movement or momentum? Is it going well? How are you happy with how that's evolving? Is it an organic growth? Definitely, I think what we learned, we can expand our network in a really global, powerful community. This works wonderful because it's the right time, right? Everyone feels it, now it's the time to do, but then we see as well the problem because usually pioneers, they're too early and companies are too late and then when it's the right time to act. And so it needs so many times, it needs a long way to go. But I think we accepted this way, that's as well why we started the foundation as a nonprofit foundation to support these pioneers but to bring them together with people who really can scale and it needs, it has to go hand in hand. The same sustainability, it has to be profitable in the long term. I mean, to be sustainable means to sustain your business, your resources, your employees, yourself over multiple generations within the future to be self-sustaining for future generations. It's also, it's a better business model, it's more efficient, it's something that gives you certain amount of resilience in the future, although there is another layer of that resilience, I totally am in line with you on that. But for this, sometimes we have to change as well the circumstances around that because now we do not pay the price, the value of the price, it's not the same you pay. And I think that as well a problem in this world and that's why we have to rethink so many things, right? And then we have to see it as well as an opportunity to start with, for sure. Now many things are still in a really early phase, but we will go there and it's the only way we can go, I think without sustainable ecosystem, there is no future. And that's why I think it's the only way to go. But at the same time, you have to speak a language of the people you want to convince and we would like to convince as well capital markets, we would as well like to convince policymakers, we would like to convince decision makers and opinion leaders, so it needs as well, that's why we say we are optimists, progressive and responsible optimists. It's just a completely new philosophy, but as well we see there's a new way of doing things. Up until the pandemic, you guys had some really good partners and collaborations with everything UN organizations to big other foundations and seems like you are well on a good way to set some plans and agendas for the future and the development of where things are going. My question is kind of with all this experience, this journey, these travels that you've had up until this point, how did you weather the pandemic? Did any of that help you be in the mindset or already have the preparedness tools or the resilience to make it through this? Can you tell us a little inside of how you've weathered it, what it's looked like for you? Sure, pandemic, I think humans they have to see something or they have to see really crazy times that they will change and I think now it's the pandemic we have seen that we can change, we can take radical change as well. It was the same with now with all the flights. I think it was for so many people, not imaginable before, but now we can do with less or we can do it different and it starts in our head, right? And the pandemic made it more imaginable. Did it feel like a collapse or a scary time or was it because of that specifically for you and what you're doing, your foundations, your businesses, your day-to-day life, did you feel like, oh, hell, everything, this is a horrible time or did you feel you were prepared from the way you were thinking, the thoughts and ideas that you were talking about the future and working on these things, did that help in any way? Would it have put you in a better spot than you probably, if you hadn't gone those paths? Yeah, for sure. I think COVID was horrible for so many people and it's a horrible thing for a world- Definitely. Time, we see technology is part of the solution, right? So, and technology is neutral. It's just what we do with this tech and now we have to accept that we should use this new technology. We should use this new solution. We should use it with a different understanding, with a different culture, maybe, yeah. It's a culture where we have to change because as well as system changes, it's not about, it's about three things. It's about technology change, but I think that's more or less the easiest part of it. I think the more difficult things are behavior change and policy change. I agree. And this is a world that we say, look, we are not a platform for technology per se. I think others can do this better, but we would like to influence this, especially policy change, because for us, it's easy to reach out to policymakers without having a bigger agenda or a different agenda than the topic itself. And our world still works in nation, so there's always more. That's why we say to think without the box instead of outside the box. There is no box, especially for this topic, digital and climate change. The reason I ask those questions and they're leading in some respects is because when you talk to businesses or organizations, even policymakers, about sustainable transitions that we need to make and about building resilient, desirable futures, about creating different business models to operate in the future, the question that always is very present. Is it profitable? Will I get a return on my investment? How much will it cost? How long will it take? Things like that. You started with these foundations and with what you've been working on for years now to make that transition, to make that movement in the right direction. And so this pause, this phase that we've had where there's been many things that have bubbled to the surface besides COVID, Black Lives Matters and many other things have bubbled to the surface that have affected us. But now we have, you personally, I'm asking, do you have some positive responses that say, wow, that is a better model because I've weathered it very well and I'm going to be more prepared in the future. Those who suffered, those who had those situations during this time, I'm sorry they weren't prepared, but it's always shoulda, coulda, woulda and those people who've heard the message tons of times, but for one reason or another were just not able to do it, whether it was policy, money, profits, whatever, they didn't do it. But now there's really like the point where they can see that the investments, return on investment on ESG investments or on Earth Overshoot Day that it's actually been a really positive thing for those people who already have began to make that transition to a different future. That's the way why we like to, or we try to convince these people and not only to convince people they're already on the journal, that's why we invest so different, completely different people and institutions and we bring it all together because you need as well as institutional these people was capable to invest in the future with a long-term approach. They have to learn a new, or they have to see the potential of it or at least they have to be behind it. That's why we say we have to change our lifestyle or our understanding, that's sort of a new approach. We need people from scientific or from technology driven people. We need people for policymakers making it possible with the new technology. And we bring this all together and try to convince them of the new, of the new sustainable way because for me it's the biggest gross market and we should accept this. And it's the same if what Switzerland did in the past and I think it's amazing. It's just a story of Switzerland and its quality. Everyone accept that Switzerland has the best quality. If we sell chocolate, watches, farmer, banking, it doesn't matter what, we charge a premium for being better in quality than others. But I think it's more a myth or it's a story but it's a great story. And we have to do now the same for sustainability. I think I hope that in the future as we say from Switzerland, is it Swissness? It's not better quality, it's more sustainable. And people are ready to pay this premium. And then we can start a run because it's a goal to make others to do better than others but in a more sustainable way instead of just doing it in a bigger role. I agree. I think that when you correct me if I'm wrong, when you speak about the premium, pay the premium or for the quality, really what you're talking about is about paying the true cost of an item. You're talking about paying the total environmental cost to pay a product. Now, I do a lot with food, your grandfather did a lot with food as well. When you cheapen food, you cheapen life and you can apply that to products too. If you cheapen a product, produce it as cheap as possible, somebody pays that price, not only the environment but also your employees, insurance benefits, the list can go on and on of someone's, something that pays the price of cheapening that. The true cost, the true value, the fair trade, the fair wage and the total environmental cost as percentage of EBITDA, that's a different form of paying the true price, paying the value for that quality so that it can be something that's circular and self-sustaining, something that is truly that. I think that's what you're saying and that's what I hear out in our past dealings. I know that's a lot of how you think and how you work in these complexities which leads me nicely to the question, do you believe that there is a roadmap, a plan of action, targets, indicators, monies that we need to do that will get us to a different future by 2030, by December 2030? Definitely. Look, what I mentioned as well and I think my business partner as well wrote a lot of things in his book about it. Well, your price is not the same and that's probably in our world right now because we do not have the information yet and that's why there's such a big gap and sustainability, I discuss this a lot with my fiance, what does it mean because now we see everything is in a way sustained or everyone says he is sustainable in a way but I think to be sustainable, you have to be transparent and being transparent means you can see what is the real price because now we don't pay the real price. It's like a fake that we pay because we just do so that we don't know or we wish to not know but in future hopefully it will not be possible anymore because we have the data and the information and we can create a fair price for things and this is in food, you're the expert there. I think that's what I'm really waiting for but what is your massive plan to change this? Well, thanks for asking. As you know, I'm an advocate for the sustainable development goals and not only is it the world's first ever historical precedence but a plan for humanity to get us to December 2030 and to give us a pretty solid springboard or foundation. Most people honestly don't even know what the sustainable development goals are. They don't know that they're a system and they don't know the story behind them that they're really not only the world's first ever global moonshot but it's a historical precedence unheard of set for a plan, an action plan, a unified plan for humanity, which when I speak to other people, they don't have a clue what our plan is, they don't know what they're going and as a business person, as a creative, you know, if you don't have architectural plans, if you don't have building plans, if you don't have a plan, you don't have any direction and you're never gonna reach anything, you're just blown around through the wind. This is a true plan, a sustainable development plan to create a nice future. So for me, it's obviously the 17 sustainable development goals. One other thing that a lot of people don't know that I always really wanna make them aware of and that's why I like the world systemic form. That's why I like the systems change foundation and the things that you do because not only is it embracing complexity and system sinking, but what it does is it takes a deep dive, look at what are the SDGs and how do we use them and reply to them? If you look at them, it's not a tweak on business as usual. It's not just a slight adjustment in business as usual moving forward, it's truly a global new plan, a new economic plan, a new sustainability plan, a new infrastructure plan, a new innovation plan that changes everything drastically from what we've ever seen before in our world. And some people don't understand that that is the new model, that is the new global unified operating system to get us to a better future. And people just really don't realize that because they haven't, one heard of them or they haven't dived deep enough into really what they mean and how to understand them. The people at Davos at the UN and a lot of people at your foundations and groups, they kind of get that because they embrace the systems sinking and complexity. Now, that doesn't mean that we give up our nations, our borders, our politics and things like that. What it means is that we unify ourselves on a step above our nationalistic models on a global model that says, we're setting the bar here and we don't ever wanna go below this level of standard for humanity and the way we operate on our planet because it's just a better system that will sustain humanity, our world for much future generations. And the core of it is, is to bring us into the safe operating spaces of our planetary boundaries. And so when people grasp that, the light just goes on. They're like, oh my God, there is a plan because if there was not a plan, Rudy, I'm telling you honestly, people are out there looking daily. They're looking to their nations, their cities, their communities for some kind of a plan, what's next? What's gonna happen? And nobody knows and they're unsure. We don't have the right leadership. And so I think, and this will be enough. I know I don't wanna go off, you asking me the questions, you're here, but it's really important to realize that if we don't accept it and we know we had a historical plan in place, it's almost verging on criminal behavior. People like the Trump apocalypse who try to step out of the Paris Agreement or not say they don't wanna be part of it or actually it's a criminal thing for all humanity and there should be some consequences because all the other time in our worlds, we're always looking for some kind of a plan or help or better infrastructure for our future. It's here, it's been around for a long time and for us to wait five, six years to just to start acting on it, that's time we don't have to waste. I could go, you know I could go on for hours about it, but I mean, I think we're aligned in many ways about that, but that brings me to my burning question for you and that is the burning question WTF and it's not the swear word, you've heard it before, what's the future? I think to begin with, I think it will be, I think we should forget what we know to know what we should know and I think that it's really important to really start from the scratch and this is a really difficult thing right now because we have so many experienced people and sometimes I think it's a risk to have too many experienced people at the table. So just to understand the future, I think it's first to forget what we have right now because what we need, what I mentioned we need radical systemic change, but they do not need that there's no business model, there's no opportunities, there is no, no it's just different, but it's how the world works, it's the same with Liechtenstein, I think Liechtenstein was a really poor country, but not that we have been farmers like in Switzerland as well, like you know how it was just a different world and then we have seen the opportunity and this just to come to the point how the future will look like and what I would like to say is just we have to reimagine the industrial age because the future has completely different setup and it will be tech driven, tech is good, tech is neutral, it's just how we use this technology, how we create a framework that it's fair that we understand what's behind and this has to be radically we have to rethink it in the whole complex system, not only in one as well, what's the model behind, who pays with what, who influence whom all this that we have to rethink. I believe that with this digital transformation which will change everything radically, we can create a sustainable ecosystem which is fully transparent, I mean with fully transparent that we see the real costs, that we pay the real costs and with this we will create an ecosystem which is working together which is the whole complexity will be seen and you have to find a way to bring it back in a sustainable ecosystem that's overall not going too deep in how exactly it could look like so the digital transformation will be a great thing and we always call this the digital modern era, you think that's the beginning of a new era and we have to see it as something positive and making things transparent and with this transparent about the costs, the real costs and then what we have as well I think I completely different lifestyle because now it's so huge, they're doing so many stupid things just to show off but how can you show off with something which is destroying the earth? Why? Why can you be someone by destroying modern earth? Yeah, it's like you can't be someone until you hurt something or something else or take away from something else and that's a really messed up system that has a limit to grow eventually that has to end and change for some of our podcast listeners as you were kind of doing some hand movements and I could hear you on the death you're basically describing a closed system within planetary boundaries, a circular system something that is a system and very complex and you could probably talk hours about it and then you began your answer with something that speaks to me and I don't know if I heard it right and that's why I wanna kind of mirror it back to you repeat it back to you to see if I was on the same page what I heard is it's great to have specialists sometimes we have too many specialists but we need people to forget how we have been doing it, break their habits and we need the people who don't know that it is not impossible to reach a better future those people who, and the biggest example is as you've heard this before Bertram Picard, a pioneer and doctor who flew around the world in a solar impulse a solar airplane, when he was building that plane he went to the experts and the specialist engineers to help him build the wing and the solar impulse and how do I get these make it lighter than possible but get the solar panels and the wings and all the experts, they said it's impossible it can't be done, we don't know how to do it so I went to a shipbuilder who didn't know it was impossible and he got it done and that's what I hear out on your answer is that kind of correct or am I still not getting it a hundred percent? Yeah, sure, I think this as well it's so important that you take yourself not too serious I mean why I am a creative mind I'm just open and I'm optimistic about and sometimes it's not working out but it's fine, try it again, try it again and it's okay to fail Yeah, it's okay to fail and we have to accept this, why? But I think that's a problem of the society sometimes because we are afraid of failing or falling, but why? If you have a good, just try it out I think you have to learn this but that's the other point why it's difficult so many people can't and that's why we think as well you have to bring the right people together sometimes you need the right people with capital supporting others to let them fail but maybe they succeed as well but you have to bring as well an ecosystem it's not going alone it's not the individuals, it's a crowd but the crowd is the individuals together, right? And we have all of them together with a common goal of systemic change but to create a better future then we can fail and it's fine to do that but some of these people will then succeed as well and as I always say I'm an open, creative mind and super optimistic That's great and I know you to be such so I've been fortunate enough to be on a few of quite a few of your events and also from the beginning on some things this year started out really sometimes you feel guilty about it but damn it, I don't feel guilty one bit this year started out with a bang and some amazing things happened we were on a fabulous roadmap with some great ambitions and we still are, I've seen some more ambitions and some things really positive things come to give hope and optimism for the future we were in Liechtenstein we went into the cave and you're gonna have to give me this big tunnel cave that you're gonna have to explain that to me and that's where the world's systemic form annual meeting was right before Davos that we met in there and they do a lot of amazing things and experiments and innovations and testings within that closed type of the environment which then are then brought out and distributed to the world can you tell us a little bit about that but also I don't know I think you're getting ready to do some partnerships or have with them on some other things just that experience as well and then we can talk about maybe our if you want our journey to Davos afterwards Yes, sure, I think what we did there I think we would like to bring our people together and help them to think different, bigger and it's all about the willingness to reimagine and to do a special event a world systemic forum within a mountain in a very special circumstance driving in with electric cars making a show helps to create a smooth systemic change at the same time we would say what's really impact once it's the imagination and the other is to set these examples and I think that this empty mountain is huge it's a perfect place to test things out that we can showcase that it works right that's one thing and in the end it's like what's the who's the who's is a house it's just a roof but it can be under construction it can be in Berlin like with the opera who's the collaboration we have or in Cape Town where we have a school house school who's it doesn't matter where it is it's just a roof it can be under construction it can be super old and super fancy like a opera house or it can just be a mountain it doesn't matter it's just we bring people together and I think that what we did as well at the world systemic forum and in the mountain afterwards was our sustainable flight to Davos yeah it was showcasing that that's cool right yeah yeah sustainable way it's the only cool way to go CO2 neutral climb works helicopter flight to Davos and it was the same place where everybody else is landing in an unsustainable way without doing offsetting where you'd see prominent people or you know whoever else having impact but there is a different way of doing it that's you know think about it differently forget what you've known forget that it's impossible and let's figure out the ways that we think might be impossible let's figure out those ways to get it done and make it happen and there's always a transition and a learning curve within that process but yeah that was a fabulous experience but it also set an example to others it is possible think about it differently and make it cool yeah make it real cool make it the new big thing Swissness right Swiss mean not quality sustainable coolness and sexy I mean that's what Tesla did with the Roadster so you know fast and big and you got to make it cool and sexy and then just build upon that and then go to churn it maybe it starts as well as climate is offsetting but in the long term maybe we go and make a few fuels or something else but just go to have a big dream I think we need a new understanding a new goal where we are going to and then we have to believe in the outcomes and if we believe in it we will do it and then at the same times we need the investors there who helping these people to to think big, to act big to do it to have the time to do it because that's a problem as well we have so many people that are just short term thinkers because they are not believing in the big thing and so they are not getting the big amount of the capital they need to do it and we have to change a lot yeah and I I don't want to look at those people in any way in a negative way because I used to be one of them over 20 years more than 20 years ago I definitely would if you would have told me I'm going to be doing and speaking to the people and that I am now absolutely I wouldn't have believed it in a million years I was you know because I was in a different place I was in a different mindset I didn't have that understanding I didn't have the right people and there is a way to turn that light on to make that transition to have those discussions and there are some amazing people some absolutely amazing people who at one time were different and then the light went on and they were able to make that transition as you know I consult for a lot of airlines 21 different airline companies and groups and airplane providers and this ties into the experience we had flying into Davos there is over 126 well over 126 different companies working on vertical takeoff working on a hydrogen jet fuel working on electrical aircraft commercial grade electrical that are working on five passenger taxis Ilium and Uber is doing something and Hyundai is doing something and Boeing and Airbus and KLM and many others are working on these things already the future of flight of impact on our environment is not going to be what it's going to be today and it's not about stopping our flights not about stopping our our communication with people around the world it's about embracing that there is a different way to do things and it's already coming by 2024 2026 the latest you will be astounded by the amount of options to fly without harming our planet it may be its shorter distances at first it's going to blow your mind just like it may be a few years ago it was blowing our minds that there's autonomous vehicles driving down the road and there's nobody looking at the steering wheel or the drivers asleep whatever we've gotten to the future comes fast for us all and that leads nicely into this question that I have for you it's probably my last hardest question for you and it's similar to some of the answers you've already given me but what does a world that works for everyone look like for you? I think that we have to go back to the basics what humans need and I think that's a problem right now because we dream of something which is not making us happy but it's a big dream and people think when they get there they would be happy but that's not the point it's just that our fake news fake dreams and I think what we need is to go back to our human needs for sure it's security it's a family or not a family it's our friends and family it's emotional get-togethers it's to personally to grow I think it is well it's still the same I think you would like to have would do something out of your life but it's not just a growth it's not only to start a company and grow with revenue and profits it can be different right can be as well you can grow in your personality this you should create and it's all these basic needs we need with with a clear understanding what we do that's why I say it's key that we are have a transparent world and I think in the digital modern era we can add it but in a way that it's not the power is this control in a way that we are still free freedom it's another important thing and all this I think it's our basic needs we have just to accept that these are the things we are looking for and then for sure food is an important thing because everything what we do in the past we did it to get enough food right and I think that we have to accept again that we that we have a good and healthy food ecosystem we can play this is one of as well priority yeah I agree with you that is one for me as well because for me it's the absolute basics of life it's our energy source and everything has started with our need for that basic energy source and built upon it there of you know not only food production food farming and machinery and industry and that's all it's all closely tied to us and we're our journey and our evolution has been on this planet so if you were to give my listeners a sustainable takeaway or a a tip or suggestion to make their their life and their business and the innovations that they do better if you were to have a new transformer at the Hoos Institute and you were to advise them with some tips and suggestions concrete actions or things that they could do to become a better more impactful innovator or a better steward on our planet what would that be? start rematching believing yourself and if you rematch and you can start to think big believe in the outcomes and then start to do today that you create this tomorrow what you are aiming for and everything starts in your head just believe in yourself and what I mentioned as well don't take yourself too serious don't take yourself too serious be a creative mind especially these days, right? the power of ideas and imagination don't be too serious and also the power to rethink you know I love that that's a great a great takeaway that they can apply and it probably would be the same answer if if you had a captive audience if you could go up to every individual on the world and you only had the opportunity to give them an elevator pitch or just a short little message that could change your life it probably would be the same or would it be different? it would be the same I think it's always how we can influence change and there are different approaches and what I mentioned as well, the crowds are individuals, right? every individual by itself and we have to accept this how can we influence how can we how can we, how can we create something new I think it surface ourselves and that we have to accept and this surface rethinking re-imagine re-imagine thank you so much, Rudy it's been a sheer pleasure to speak to you I want to, I will list on our video and on the links all your websites to the World Systemic Forum the HUSA Institute and many others is there anything that my listeners or I can do for you or your movements to help participate or to create something that would help or push for the things that you are working on? definitely, we are looking for the right people going with us for journey and in the long term what we are aiming for is to have a HUSA who's all over the globe but not organize by ourselves it should be independently organized it's the same value set it's the same guidelines it's the same rules, right? HUSA rules and we are looking for people who would like to have their own home for thinkers and changers and doers and you have to be free to reach out to us and me and then to find a way how we can start thank you so much and I'm sure you'll be hearing from quite a few people and I'm excited to see the movement grow and to take part of it we'll be seeing each other very soon Rudy you have a most wonderful day and we'll talk again very soon my friend thank you so much Mark you're welcome, talk to you later you too