 wengisan omeanza kusema ni prosesi mekwama but we want to tell them that this process is on and we are going to take off on Wednesday and the bill is ready the people who are preparing the bill are calling us the bill is here and the bill is ready can you now move forward so we are moving forward the issue of whether there are changes in the bill or not you ask the people are dealing with the bill not us that is Honorable Junete Muhammad uh you know who is also one of the chairman of the uh joint chairman leading the bbi uh national secretary together with the former member of parliament Dennis Waweru remember it's all about the bbi accept refine or reject which is which i'm seeing so many tweets coming in so many comments coming in through our social media handles if you haven't dropped in yours remember the hashtag is the stand ke drop in your comments at ram aguko at y254 channel the hashtag the stand ke welcome back if you're just joining us this is why 254 watching the stand and uh so let's talk about the signatures now they are going to the county assemblies and it is expected that tomorrow at the kicc this will be launched the signature collections and we will kick start these issues going on to the counties but all the question is um let me let me start with you uh sheriff how should county assemblies be able to you know handle this report once it goes to the county assembly what should be the you know rate of reception that the county assembly should be having for them to be able to handle this report how will they be able to ensure that it is taken in well um kenyans let me start by saying that kenyans are facing some very mundane issues that are actually bigger to them than these issues of the bbi i would like to say that the mcs should be very careful uh one they have to understand that nobody is forcing them into anything these are democratic process and they have their views that uh they need addressed recently you watched uh the members of county assembly from uh meru county um and they really talked about this issue they say that um they have been having sessions in uh in their houses discussing this bbi issue and uh when you listen to them you find that they are saying that there are some very mundane issues and some very critical issues at kenyans in meru uh let me use that as the example in kenyans in meru are facing and some of those issues are some of the issues that need to be addressed you know if at all we need assurance i started by saying that bbi the spirit behind bbi is one of the best things that has ever happened we should always be open to conversations and trying to change our democracy as we go but now the members of county assembly should have it in mind that they are not being forced and they have the chance to say that um we need this change we need that change an example let me use an example uh we are talking about uh bringing a county award fund but there is nowhere where we are we are discussing the protocols and the laws that are going to to uh to guide us uh in the operation of that uh award development fund those are some of the issues that we need to discuss so that uh yeah you know so that we can be really helpful kenyans because we might be bringing another issue of corruption by introducing award fund remember the issues that are usually there with ngcdf you know we need proper frameworks as we discuss this issue now two county assemblies nandi county and kericho county wrote to the supreme court yesterday uh seeking an advisory opinion on the on this popular initiative and in a statement let me read just a portion of it and i quote the first question concerns whether county assemblies are obliged to conduct public participation when considering a bill to amend the constitution through popular initiative that's the question they're asking is it okay for the county assemblies or are they obliged to conduct public participation when considering this bill shila but uh you see we're saying public participation at the point of which we are collecting signatures have we have we skipped a process because the word out there is that public participation was already done the past two years right now we are obtaining signatures of people who are aware of what document that they actually want to pass because what we need is one one million signatures which i know in any county uh backed by the executive the signatures will be gotten but the issue then is people signing these signatures to support bbi do they really know the document have they it is not why they are going they are going for public participation and that's why we are saying it's not yet time to get the the signatures so so there's a process there's some there is a step missed you cannot tell people that we want you to sign this document and sign in support of it and you are telling them about the document now as they are signing for the document public participation is supposed to enlighten the the the county is about the document have they gotten copies of the document have they read through it do they know what is in the document for them do they know how to hold their leaders accountable as per the document such that we having a people who are enlightened who are signing for something they actually know or do we just want one million signatures or four million like uh waweru was saying which they will get but at the end of the day are we getting signatures from people who know about it or do we just need signatures well um yes um i want to add something to her to her point that uh what are we collecting the signatures for what are we having an election about is it really necessary we are looking into it a referendum here sheriff a referendum about what something that is not accepted when you talk about uh uh the issue of public participation you're talking about uh public participation um so that people can give views actually this is counter uh they are they are contradicting themselves because if you say um if let's say the supreme court says that uh they have to hold a public participation um then that means they will have to again air their views on the document and you have already said that the document is already closed for review they want to talk about that actually um they also question whether the county assembly can amend the constitution amendment bill to reflect the views received during public participation as well as the input inputs from the mcs we'll have to wait for the supreme court to give us an answer to that but imagine a situation where they are told that um they can they actually supposed to uh conduct a public participation then raila has already said that this document is closed for review won't we be having two political sides um again contesting on that issue again because if the members of county assembly say that we have issues that need to be collected in this document and then they refuse what are we doing really aren't we confusing kenyans the question would be is there proof of public participation in the bbi that is already in the bbi that is being taken to the counties because the supreme court would want to overchange something that was not there if this proof that indeed this county is had given their views and their views are well taken into consideration then they would still be going through a process that they had gone through and now taking it back to court so the big question is was there public participation can you say for for a fact that these uh county assemblies that are coming to court participated and endorsed this document so within these two years what what your argument is to make sense out of it within these two years that we had uh the bbi report that the you know the team was moving around the country they already engaged the public mean there was public public participation that is the assumption that is assumption but now that we have the report is going back to the county assemblies so that they can discuss it um so if they're talking about public participation again it means we are talking about a second participation of the public which is if you look at the document there are parts that are saying uh this is what the members of the public said this is what this is what they were recommending then this is what the document now has taken into consideration it is giving back so at what point were the members of the public making these recommendations was it private uh let's let's look at some of your comments here John good is saying i reject bbi see a bet is saying wah okay this bbi thing is robbing our future i guess bbi belongs to a few i believe bbi thing only is a political strategy to a certain person or ground it seems unrealistic and does not come out clearly i reject it malta calvin is saying it's impossible said the pride it's risky say the experience it's meaningless say the common sense reject bbi whispered the heart malta calvin only pass a luck from baringo county in marigat sub county thank you very much uh we have came working up and oh refine reject okay but if you reject it if you're refining it there is no you remind me then what was the whole point of refining it shark deal and so hi hi say the youtube mea kenya so actually kai kwanza or implement constitution mea visuri i love fututafikiri amamba bbi denisua mukwijit anasama kapingu kapinguria tukupamoja by the way um to all youths who are there do you do you do we even understand the bbi bbi in you know in in itself Xavier maestro muela anasama at least it's an upgrade from the current situation in the constitution we have let's accept and refine later so where so we want to accept a document and then we go again to a whole process again later this the views from kenyans should actually tell uh the movers of the bbi uh debate that it's not yet time kenyans are rejecting this document and they're not rejecting the document because the document is bad they're rejecting the document because one uh they do not understand the whole document they have not read it they do not know the merits of the same and two they're feeling that the issues those who have read it feel that the issues that we need to be addressed one of such issues is uh the fight against corruption which is one of the major issues that we're facing in this country the bbi document has said that we want to create a timeline for the dealing with these cases of corruption that on the other hand when the president is not appointing judges i don't know how they want to do that but if you are saying that we want to create a timeline for these cases and your first contracting corruption cases do the common man know that what ails us most is being dealt with in this document okay let's continue jaffet ratanya uh peterson is saying is watching from kenyanka game south i reject bbi i understand tomorrow uh we are launching signatures whereas they have not distributed booklets now how will we sign to something we have not seen or read and that is the question one of the essential elements of public participation as she had said is that the public participation is done on a bill what kenyans were doing is that they were giving their views on what they would want in that bill now even though now we have a bill then we'll have to have public participation on it so that they can say this was properly so this is this has been written down properly so this one is improper we need this out we need this added kenyans should be accorded with that opportunity again and i keep on repeating this where are we rushing to we will get to a situation where kenyans will decide to throw the baby with the water we have good things in that document but if at all kenyans are not given another opportunity to say that yes we have this document but these are the things we need added these are the things we need removed there is something that jaffet has said that let me get it that we are launching signatures whereas they have not distributed booklets how will we sign something that we have not seen or read when you are doing public participation one or something else is that the government or the person who is doing public participation has the duty to ensure that the individuals actually have that information you facilitate them accessing that information so if you say that you are getting people to accept something and yet you have not facilitated them reading that document then what are you doing exactly have you have you seen no had the had copy already i have it on my phone at least i have a phone yeah okay so you see those who have phones those who are in access the internet can get the document uh it's being shared uh right left hand center uh on social media but not every other kenyan uh have access to that which which which i need kenyans by the way to tell me umesoma bbi have you seen it have you touched it do you have it on your phone have you read it kamao gitario atumaini say me uh revine or i reject many parts in it are individual gain against the will of common monai chi rastok waka wachaku wachaku sama mini li accept kitambo okay those are tweets uh those are comments by some of kenyans uh remember the hashtag the stan ke now the bbi has a loss of issues that are addressing different constitutional masters and that is a fact here because i talk about amending the constitution uh which requires that only at the end of the day the constitution requires that only you know one or numerous issue based questions be voted for during our referendum if so then how how how is it that we can be able to come to a point where we can have the referendum question acquired in a document that has so many um constitutional um amendments getting to that referendum question how can we acquire that so uh well it's not rocket science that uh for us to have uh the the questions the referendum questions we have to identify which issues are key yes which issues are we will be going to the ballot for against and part of the issues that are key are issues that have been talked around time and time again straight from when bbi was launched in bombas the key issues came out on the podium there and then and part of the key issues are one uh the i e b c that is that was the key issue which is probably the issue that holds uh we're saying that bbi is uh an attempt at inclusivity so we want to bring people together away from elections the first issue would then be how are we appointing the judges who are going to look at this i e b c issue so we have people who are going to sit down and come up with themselves come amongst themselves with questions on how do how do we appoint the i e b c so what if uh two political parties do not agree or if uh the smaller political parties move to quote like mind you know chap chap like uh that way alliance what if they move to call that we are not included in the appointing of people who are going to look at how we run of which based on what what i see that alliance seems to be supporting if uh i got it right from the secretary general freddy kokano but there's some who believe that uh hon. Borreloz is forcing these on kenyans uh together with other leaders but hon. Borreloz dina said this and i quote world over a referendum is contested so that those who are supporting it have a right just like those who are opposing it we are not forcing anybody to support it we are a democratic democratic country that is we have seen some kenyans saying that this you know i'd call that an irresponsible statement because by by raela because hon. Borreloz he is a person or everybody who is a proponent of bbi are people who have political power they are people who have a lot of influence in this country as much as you're saying everybody has the democratic right to choose and and that is true everybody has the democratic right to private political choice and to express that uh to express that uh political view or opinion but now this is a person who should be able to sit down with all kenyans stop politicizing over politicizing this issue and give kenyans the chance to air more views you know as much as you're saying that we already have this document and people can accept it or reject it then then can't we do it in 2022 if at all if at all there's no hurry it's a good document and everybody has a political choice then can't we do it in 2022 without all these commotions and all this you're both lawyers let me speak about your president the LSK president Nelson Harvey these are he said what interest does an outgoing president have with the constitution it can only be of for self interest and of course that does this carry water um i think one i would probably like to highly dissociate myself with that sentiment that's a very reckless statement because you see uh an outgoing president has no right in constitutionalism in a country in which they are faster citizen before they are president so we are saying once you see is being a president then you see is talking about the matters that affect the country is that the position the president wants to take i i have not seen that tweet but i would call it a lazy tweet it is something that you say when you your mind is not working you have just woken up so when it comes to constitutional change um it is not something that is that selfish from the president to do it now he is he is a conversation that involves everyone yes and that is why we are taking it back to the county assembly who the president would probably hail from a county so they would have their say from that county so we cannot say that once you are a president you do not care about what will happen next after you are over power or if you are the president commands a good the president like we've seen the former president should want to see the country not divided when they live and that's why we're saying once the president leaves the office what legacy is he leaving such that you cannot leave an office and say i do not care i will not talk about that document how does it concern me who says that that is a very uncalled for statement chair i'd call it a sorry statement because um you you both uh do you know some of us it is very lazy of the statement because it it brings the whole you know it brings the whole issue of politicization of this whole bbi making it a theme versus us you know when you introduce such a point you are you are starting to bring insinuations like um there are people who are saying that the president wants to come back in another way or something like that you know those are the things that make us not be soba enough to discuss this document when you look at most of the tweets and the comments on facebook that we are getting from here you're finding that people are not saying that they reject bbi because they know what is contained in bbi they are not accepting it because they know what is because and that is a majority of the people they are saying that because um they are on a certain side yeah you find uh there are those who are in tanga tanga those who are in keleweke none of them is soba enough to make an objective statement on bbi and um when we live here probably everybody will will will will associate me or associate her with a certain side of the of the political divide that we have in this country and that is the wrong uh footing to uh to to start with uh we should start from a point of objectivity let us remember that this is a constitutional uh this is an issue about changing the constitution it needs a lot of objectivity it needs us to be soba it needs us to remove all the political whims from it um we just need to be soba when you're having this conversation and so such statements are just uh not proper and and as of this conversation uh the i b c has okayed the signature collection format that was presented to it by the bbi secretariat and it has okayed the form uh given recommend given recommendations directing signatures to fill in uh details in all the places for easier vote uh verification now what you see on your screen is the um is the format that was presented to the i bc to the i bc by the bbi secretariat uh the approved form is divided into nine fields which require signatories to fill in the details now some of the data sets require in the require in the form include the name id uh passport number uh the county constituency count assembly ward polling station mobile number email address and signature or thumb print this is the document that was um approved by the i bc today and this ought to be going around in the county assemblies when you when you see these things are moving well things are definitely moving uh irrespective of uh talk or the dissenting opinion things are actually moving and we have an event tomorrow coming up uh what are you expecting in tomorrows event you know with the launch of this uh signatures going around the counties well uh first i think uh we should take a stand that it's possible to support bbi and not support rila or support president and it is also possible to go against the bbi and not be in tanga tanga or whatever it is one what i expect tomorrow is that the president the deputy president who has always called from the first tweet we saw uh for abandoning this whole process will not be present that is what a lot of kenyans will expect and that will send a message out that the people who have not read uh this document who would want to associate with him to turn the document down so as we're going forward in and launching the collection of signatures is it the right time do we really need to launch it tomorrow okay uh sheriff when you saw that uh the form it has been approved by the i bc and then we shall sample a few of your comments in in a few uh your thoughts about that and tomorrow's event what would you expect the process is definitely moving um that one we all know and we agree um there are so many political motivations behind this and that is what i can say um but uh it can still be called off if people get soba enough and see that um there are so many issues that still need to be discussed you want it to be called off i would like for it to be called off so you don't support the bbi i support the spirit behind bbi but there are so many issues that i know that's how to be i'll be handled difficult lawyer yeah let's let's take a look at your tweets um let's break them up this is the lavender uh he's saying i think this bbi is a scam although it is so enticing i believe the pinch is gonna be felt harder later in time that's in case kenyans accept it but aso mi unless it is refined i reject wow i agree with so why are we why aren't we refining this document it has been there for two years so the 2010 constitution took 50 years to get so so they cannot hold in the country they're some they're some they're hidden thing that people do not want to find some mihano j saying there are final details in the bbi document that we cannot wish away but still there are needs uh but but still there needs clarity in some chapters such as the role of the youth commission where there exists a youth council i think he's quoting what you said all right uh huh so um uh so you guys you you're saying that in the end we do not actually require this whole process well we require the whole process but what is coming out for a fact is that kenyans do not know about the document so we are going to the next step when we have we're not done we're not done with the first step okay we require it's a good document it has duplicating roles that we need to get rid of and we need to know what what do we really need to have in this document okay uh huh let's uh let's head over to facebook and see what kenyans are saying let's start with the combo frank and asama reject mark langati saying the bbi report seems to be dead on a rival wow nevertheless it seems as if it will be forced down kenyans throat but but who will force it down kenyans throat you know you do not have you do not have to do it directly you can do it overtly uh you can do it covertly however whichever means that you use you are still forcing it to the kenyans what happened the spirit of democracy kenyans have the right to reject it i started with they do but why did we have this process uh to start with why have something that we know will be dead on arrival or will have so many issues that kenyans will never be i i i i saw a comment here and i forgot to to talk about it uh somebody say we accept it and then we'll change it later remember how people are whipped to accept the 2010 constitution now i say that uh we have it is very good it's so proper but we have some issues that have to be changed sometimes later if no one was whipped we went to a referendum and there was a yes it was a political no it was a political process people are whipped by the people they follow raila has his uh raila has his followers ruto has his followers uru has his followers that is something we have to agree you don't believe in the spirit of democracy or elections do you i believe in a spirit of people sitting down together and talking issues out yes uh let's get to william makori what i'm saying i accept but with conditions common manaichi will be involved in building bridges initiative period uh that is uh watching i think he's watching from bonyu new north mugirango umbati vincent only hypocrites will oppose the bbi using the additional positions in the executive cas positions were added yet the constitution doesn't have it i had nobody crying for the same yet we've we we have more than 30 cas and constitutionally who are mm-hmm is there any hasla nominated uh as a cas jaffet ratanya pitason uh ha nasama from kenyanka i gembe south that that man has not answered my question he wants to convince us that uh that who participated are the ones to put signs we need booklet so that we can sign they will keep it all at all so bbi is is cheating kenyanya with how many commissions are there in our 2010 constitution and they are not working or keeping or keeping fruit for example police commission let me even talk about that police commission one of the key things in any country is to ensure the independence of the police force or we call it a police service now at the 2010 constitution ensure that the police service is one of the most independent bodies um whether it has been is another question altogether but now we have a police service that will be under ministry directly under the executive so those are some of the issues that we are also talking about and another comment that i saw there whether there has been a hasla who has been elected is the thing that i say that people will follow who uh who leads them if ruto fails to appear tomorrow that means nobody metangatanga brigade is going to vote for that thing whether it's good or bad they are just going to say that um we are going to reject this document altogether okay right last people will also do that we we cannot uh wish a little bit of political process steven tom uh husori saying iki pita watakwa um iiba but if instead again um i'm assuming that if you had no issue to air for the last two years how comes you want more time i refuse to be a slow learner we had the slow learners when the bbi was being launched in boomers you know the slow but here's the thing uh and let me first talk about the police commission that is talking about we have a police commission we have a police service right now and then we have an independent police oversight authority so we want to uh scrub these things off and come up with the police service and then we're saying the guys who are in ipoa can now join for the rest of the term they're joining this service what is it that they can't do when they independent police oversight authority that they have to join another commission for the remaining term of their service to do it shila thank you very much that is shila who is a lawyer and masharia waidaka who is a political analyst for finding time to join me tonight that was just to the end of the stand that's all the time you had thank you very much uh for coming thank you for your tweets and your comments and for sticking too wide to fight for see you again next week same place same time my name is ram aguko this is the stand will dragu continue let's find out tomorrow