 Are you all ready to get rocking and rolling? Love that. All right. So hello, everybody. Before we get started, we have not been able to contact our ASL interpreters. So we are working on that right now. And so if you need those accommodations, live captioning is up and going at howround.tv. And so you can tune in there, but we are working very diligently to get them settled. All right. So sorry about that. Live theater, everybody. All right. So without further ado, welcome to the Green New Theater 2020, part four, Y'all Where That Money At. So this session is being co-facilitated by Grandwater Arts in partnership with Hellround Flux Theater Ensemble and Creating New Futures. And we are thrilled to shout out the work that Flux and Creating New Futures are doing. We are hosting this call on Zoom and we have about 18 folks with us right now. We are also live streaming on Hellround and on Facebook live. So hello to all of y'all joining us. If you joined us on the first few Green New Theater calls throughout the summer, welcome back. Thanks for joining us again. And you'll notice that a lot of the language at the beginning here is gonna sound familiar. And thank you for your patience as we create radical access points for all the new people to join in to. So let's get into it. The session will last approximately 90 minutes and we recognize that digital fatigue is real. So feel free to leave, come back, stand up, turn your camera off, do what you need to do, take care of yourself, have a beverage, have some food, have a white claw, whatever you like. And also as a heads up, we will have breakout groups later in the session. And if you are in the Zoom call and if you need ASL support for the breakout groups, please privately message Annalisa or any of us with the Groundwater like virtual logo, like virtual backgrounds, and we will get you squared away. So we hope that y'all will participate in the breakouts because so much of what we hope to do with the Green New Theater is based on relationship building and decentralized processes. So we encourage you to participate to whatever extent that you can. So we're going to take a moment now to introduce ourselves as facilitators. And while we do that, please feel free to introduce yourself in the chat box using your name, pronouns, and any land acknowledgement you'd like to give. And for those of y'all tuning in on HowlRound, send us an email to introduce yourselves if you like. And for those on you on Facebook, please comment. Visibilizing our access needs is a method of accountability. So I want to take a moment to highlight, amplify, and shout out Unsettling Dramaturgy, a colloquium of mad, crypt, disabled, and indigenous dramaturgs from across Turtle Island for modeling what you all will witness us do in just a second. The link to the Unsettling Facebook page will be in the chat when I'm done talking and on the Facebook page in the comments as soon as I get them there. So to kick us off, I will go first. Kishy, Tara Cho Chifkeros. So hello, everybody. My name is Tara Moses. I'm a citizen of the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma. I use she, her pronouns, and I'm calling in from the Muscogee Creek Reservation in the site of the 1921 Burning of Black Wall Street. These lands were formerly known as Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I am one mile away from the Arkansas River. My access needs are that I will need extra time to respond as my attention is split in multiple areas between here and the Facebook, as well as with our email. So I may need to also get up and go out of frame temporarily or show my camera off to stretch or readjust. Because I have a never-ending knee injury. Other than that, my access needs are met. My visual description is that I have brown skin, very long, very dark hair, and I'm wearing a sage green shirt. And I am sitting in front of a virtual background that is black, and it has the Groundwater Arts logo in the top, my right, probably your left, hand corner. And it says Groundwater Arts on Facebook, GroundwaterArts at gmail.com and hashtag Green New Theater. I am also the artistic director of Tulsa, co-founder of Groundwater Arts, a director and playwright. And with that, I'm gonna hand that off to Anna. Thanks, Tara. Hi, my name is Anna Lathrop. My pronouns are she, her, hers. I live on the unseeded lands of the Lenape Nation, more specifically the Nayak peoples in what is colonally known as Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, between Nayak Bay and Upper New York Bay. As a visual description, I am a white woman with blonde hair wearing a gray sweater in front of a black background with white text in the upper right hand corner with the Groundwater logo and contact information. I might have to stretch because of an injury that is exacerbated by sitting in front of computers, ironically enough. And otherwise my access needs are being met. And I am a design research facilitator and social service designer and co-founder of Groundwater Arts. And now I'm gonna pass it on to Anna-Lisa. Thanks, Anna. Hi, everyone. My name is Anna-Lisa Diaz. I use she, her pronouns, and I'm calling from traditional lands of Piscataway Nation, colonially known as Baltimore, Maryland by the waters of the Chesapeake Bay. These lands have also been cared for by the Susquehanna, Kalinape, Lumbee and many indigenous nations who are still here today. As a visual description, I'm a brown-skinned woman with long black hair that is currently tied up and I'm wearing gold earrings, dangly earrings. I'm sitting in front of the same black background that Anna and Tara described with the Groundwater Arts logo and contact information on it. At the moment, as far as access needs, I'm having trouble with my internet so I just might need to take it slow and reconnect at moments. So thanks for your patience with that. And additionally, I'm the director of artistic partnerships and innovation at Baltimore Center Stage, co-founder of Groundwater Arts and also an independent theater maker. We'll pass it over to Ronnie now. Hey, everyone. My name is Ronnie Pinoy. My pronouns are she, her, hers. I am Laguna Pueblo and Cherokee and live on the traditional lands of the Piscataway, also known as Washington, D.C. near the waters of the Potomac. I'm a light-skinned woman with long brown hair that looks kind of black on Zoom, wearing a black, very fuzzy, comfy sweater and I'm sitting in front of the same black background with Groundwater Arts logo and contact info on it that others described. At this moment, my access needs are met. I am producer at Octopus Theatricals, co-founder of Groundwater Arts, an advisor for the New England Foundation of the Arts National Theater Project and a composer. And for everyone who is not with us on this Zoom account, but turning in on how we're on to our Facebook, you can participate by commenting on Groundwater Arts Facebook Live or email us at groundwaterarts at gmail.com. That is all one word and our email is also in our virtual backgrounds. I will be monitoring those channels with Tara and we'll be sure that any links that we talk about end up in the Facebook comment section as well as in the Zoom chat as well. And if you're unable to get on Facebook and viewing on HowlRound and want any of the links shared, please email us and we'll be sure to get those to you as well. And over to you, Anna. Thanks. Zoom, the platform that we're using today and many, many days is headquartered in what is called San Jose, California on the traditional lands of the Olone and Timian peoples. We acknowledge the lands that Zoom resides on because the work that we create together on a digital platform does not exist in an ether or some imaginary void, but it's made possible because of the physical land and the indigenous people who steward it. Groundwater Arts shapes, stewards and seeds a just future through creative practice, consultation and community building. For us, climate justice is defined as racial justice, economic justice and a decolonized future. This call is the fourth in a series of six Green New Theater calls that has been spanning nine months. As those of you who have joined us for more than one call already know, the calls are intentionally spaced out so that everyone has the ability to opt in and opt out as their personal bandwidth permits and because deep change requires the capaciousness of time and care. We hope that over the course of these calls we as a field will feel more equipped to move toward justice both at an individual and institutional level as we look to rebuild. The Green New Theater document itself was created in collaboration with a wide array of perspectives that center black indigenous people of color and disabled people as those are the folks who are on the front lines of climate change and have been leading climate justice movements for decades. The document itself models community accountability and you can read all of the names of the wonderful people who volunteered their time and expertise to the document. Each call will model a different principle of the Green New Theater. The document consists of six principles. They are community accountability, decolonized leadership practices, publicly transparent budgeting, right relationship to land and history, sustainable resources, and immediate divestment from fossil fuels. Our call today will be centered on the principle of publicly transparent budgeting. We'll also post a link to the full document in the chat right now. Great, now we wanna take a moment to introduce our partners on this call, creating new features and flux theater. We're going to turn the floor over to them to do quick introduction and then we'll move into the discussion. So Amy, if you would like to speak a little longer because you need to leave early, by all means, please do. And with that, I'm gonna hand it over to Amy first. Thank you so much. It's really an honor to be here. My name is Amy Smith. I use she, her pronouns, calling in from just outside of Sakamachi, in Lenapehoking, currently called Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And I am not represent, I'm a dance and theater artist, educator and facilitator. I'm not representing creating new futures, but I was on the phase one working group of that project, which was essentially a document, a collaboratively written and created document, really addressing the unjust and the unjust practices that exist in the dance and performance ecosystem and making some proposals and proposing some principles and guidelines that might lead us towards a more just future in dance and performance where risk is shared more equitably. Phase two of creating new futures is currently underway. I'm really happy to report and I'm lightly supporting phase two, which has brand new leadership from phase one, also exciting modeling, changing leadership. And phase two is a series of working groups including black and native survivors working group, disability plus working group, a working group that's working on intersectional riders and other projects. So we're really thrilled and happy that that work is ongoing. And it feels to me very aligned with the work that you all are doing at Groundwater Arts and the Green New Theater. So happy to be here to just kind of like speak a little bit about creating new futures, answer any questions that folks have about it. And then as myself, if you don't mind, I'll just say a few words about the work that I do personally. Is that okay? Oh, please, yeah. So I do, one of the hats I wear is a financial hat, which is that I do tax preparation for artists and I teach financial literacy or financial wellbeing as a word I prefer to artists through various entities. And I end up, and I do bookkeeping and financial management for a handful of artists and small arts organizations after having run a small advanced company for many years, 25 years. So the ideas and practices of publicly transparent budgeting and budgeting that considers, as you said, time and care for the human beings that are part of the organization and the communities that are purportedly served by many nonprofits, but often nonprofits ignore those communities when we're writing our budgets and getting them approved by our boards. That's just a topic I feel really passionate about. And I was really thrilled to see that part of the Green New Theater document because I've been shouting it out to various organizations that I'm working with and for and on various platforms. So I'm just behind you all the way. And another piece or something that I just wanna mention briefly is that the last couple of days I've been part of a summit that Prosperity Now is doing. Prosperity Now is an organization that works, advocates on behalf of low income folks and is working towards economic justice. And it's been really interesting to hear those panelists and in those conversations where they're really seeing a relationship between racial justice and economic justice in a way that my peers in the nonprofit arts ecosystem are not. So I'm just like, let's theater folks, dance folks, let's do better. Let's follow the lead of other folks that are working on economic justice and racial justice and seeing those direct relationships and that direct intersectionality. We can do better, we must do better. So thank you for having me here to say all of that. Just jumping in to say thank you so much, Amy. And I know you have to step away in a few minutes. So just to say to everyone, I highly encourage you to check out the work that Amy is doing. She's been a huge positive force and resource for artists in the field with her advocacy around financial wellbeing, as you would say. And just really encourage you to look into the awesome work she's doing. So thanks so much, Amy. And then over to Flux. Hi, everyone. My name is Isaiah Tenenbaum. I'm a creative partner at Flux Theater Ensemble. Excuse me. He, him, his visual description. I'm the guy with the beard, dark hair, and behind me is a virtual background featuring the X from our logo. So there you go. We're gonna talk about open book and living ticket at some point. But I think since we're just doing introductions now, I'm gonna throw it over to Jason. Hi, my name is Jason. I usually have pronouns. I am calling in from, I believe, Piscataway Lands. I'm temporarily visiting my parents in Washington, D.C. And a visual description. I am a Chinese non-binary person. I have shorter length, dark hair, and I'm in front of a virtual background of the city of Hong Kong, which is near and dear to my heart. And yeah, I'm a playwright. And I'm also a, I've rediscovered my interests in web comics, that's working on a web comic, so that's been fun too. Love that. Okay, great. So what we're gonna do right now is move into sort of more of a free-form conversation between groundwater and Flux and Amy as long as you're able to stay on before you have to run away. It's gonna be probably about 25 minutes. We will try to speak at a speed that our captioner can keep up with. If we go too fast, please let us know. I know that I tend to speak very quickly. So yeah, Ronnie, why don't you kick us off? Yeah, so I'm gonna come at this from the aspect of this is really near and dear to my hearts. There's many ways into this conversation, but for me, the real triangulation around budgeting values and accountability is really important. I think in so many places, and this is especially true for nonprofit organizations that have been designated as charitable entities, the budget can be really wielded as a very intimidating document that the information in which is somehow decreed down to everyone below. And it can seem incredibly intimidating. It can seem very confusing, but at the end of the day, it is really truly a values document. And it is something that for myself and for those of us at Groundwater, it's really important when talking about community accountability, which is one of our first principles of the Green New Theater, and thinking about a just future to really think about who has an ability to see, understand, and participate in the budgeting process. So it's a firm belief of mine that anyone should be able to look at a budget and understand it and be able to understand the values of that project, that institution, and that artist. And really, I also love to laughingly say that budgets are not actually math. The software does that for you. So it's really, the sums are all there now. My favorite thing is to go in Google Sheets and say, really, there's no math involved. But yeah, so going back to values for a second, I know one of the places that I come from this as a producer is that with the artists that I work with, it's really important to start from a place of what are your values? What are the things that are most important to you? And to really think about starting with those line items in the budget as the things that are really reflecting your core values. Because while some budget somewhere may say, yeah, you should spend this much on this or expect to spend that much on that, your budget does not, your budget follows the needs of your project and your project only. And it can, I've been really amazed to see the wonderful and strange shapes that projects have been able to take when artists are really embracing the full transparency and agency that having control over all of the resources of their project, including financial agency can really bring. So with that, I wanna pivot slightly to this notion of transparency because that's the idea of taking a budget, especially on an institutional level and making it transparent can seem incredibly scary, can seem like, well, what is it? Someone's gonna get mad. And there's this sense that, well, there's something preventing me from being able to share this. And really what that is is this sense of like, why wouldn't, I think that it's gonna be different for everyone, why they wouldn't wanna share it. And often I think it's because the budget may have some aspect to it that may or may not be in line with what it is you're trying to do. And that that is really where the fear is coming from. Now that said, transparency doesn't necessarily mean blasting every single last thing you paid to every single person out on the internet. Aggregate numbers and let me actually back up and say, by aggregate I mean, okay, what according to what I spent, what the, how can I say this? The organization's complete organizational budget size, how much of that was actually spent on artists? Sharing that information is transparent budgeting. You don't need to tell someone what individual Dancer X received. I mean, if that dancer is like, yes, please share it out there, I want people to know what your rates are, great. But you don't have to, it's also about transparency is also about understanding the ratio of the highest paid to the lowest paid person in your organization. All of those financial relationships in your organization are important. How much money are you putting into new resources for your sets? Versus working with things that are already there. All of these things are possible while preserving integrity where you need to have it. Yeah, so I could just keep on rolling, but Ann, I don't know if feel free to like to jump off. Yeah, I think for groundwater, like when we say publicly transparent budgeting, all of those words mean what they mean. And I think that sometimes I can get a little bit lost because it's like, oh, okay, so we'll share this but we won't share some other stuff or like a 990 does that, a 990 is publicly transparent budgeting, but it's not really. And I think it's very, when we've been hearing a lot, especially this summer with the defund the police movements, like put your money where your mouth is. And what we saw in New York this summer was that DeBosio moved a billion dollars out of the police budget. We turn on the surfaces like, oh my God, wow, we're moving money out of the NYPD, except then it went into the Department of Education to pay for cops in schools. So when you look at the budget, when you look at the money, the priorities are exactly the same as they were before. And that to me is like, what's really at the core publicly transparent budgeting is understanding where your priorities are as an organization and then being held accountable to that. Yeah, and I'll riff off of that because you just reminded me of something. So Mark Mamoudi Joseph, I was reminded of something really brilliant that he comes back to, which is a question he always asks himself and an artist generally, which is what is your excellence in service of? And I feel like often we as artists working in the arts industry, being part of arts institutions think about, okay, there's the art making and then there's audience. But really, if you're saying that your artistry is in service of something outside of yourself, then you actually need to let those that you are quote unquote serving, those that you are accountable to, participate in that process. Because if that's actually what it's for, that's who needs to be at the table. There's a very well-known phrase, nothing about us without us. Nothing, did I say that full thing right friends? Yes, okay. It's late. And that's, I think, you wouldn't necessarily think of something that has to do with content and representation financially, but that's how all of this works. Finances are another resource and another way forward to access. And so all of the areas of representation and thinking about working relationally and not transactionally with communities around art making, all of that should extend to the financial relationships that we have and the way that money gets spent. I mean, 501c3 organizations, especially, not just exclusively, but especially in this country, have an obligation to really, a lot of those funds are public. A lot of those, those are charitable donations. And so understanding where those dollars are going is incredibly important. And I think there's a real infantilizing of the public and of those that are working in arts institutions that they're not gonna understand why money gets put in certain places and people are smarter than you think. And, you know. All right, I just, I don't mean to cut you off. I just wanted to make sure that Amy gets a chance to jump on before she has to. I'm seeing the nodding head. I'm like, yep, Amy, please. I'm just so excited about this conversation. This is like exactly what I wanna be talking about every single day. So I'm just like, I can't, I'm sorry. I'm just like nodding and nodding and nodding and nodding, yes, yes, yes. To everything you have already said. And when you were talking, Ronnie, about like why people are afraid to either do publicly engaged budgeting where the public is engaged from the start and it isn't handed down from on high. And then, you know, even after that publish or be transparent with an existing budget, I think the reason a lot of organizations don't do that in the first place is because they're embarrassed. Yeah. And, you know, then you have to ask yourself, what are you embarrassed about? And if your budget doesn't reflect your values, change it. So like one thing I was thinking about too was the relationship, the pandemic has really shown how over so many decades recently there's been this increasing divide between people on payroll, people who are salaried and people who are independent contractors and therefore much more precarious financially and in terms of benefits and support. So that's something that I think but organizational budgets need to be much more transparent about is who has the protections and the benefits that go along with being an employee and not a temporary independent contractor or being mischaracterized as a temporary independent contractor when you're actually an employee. Exactly. And then just a couple of things that we did in my organization when I was running headlong, we parted ways by the year ago but while I was still there, we instituted a couple of things. We never did a practice of like engaging our students or our audience in our budgeting process. Although now knowing what I know, I would be trying to do that if I was still running that organization. But a couple of things we did do in relationship to this values-based budgeting idea is we instituted an equal pay policy copied from AS220 in Providence, Rhode Island which basically says the executive director and the janitor are both doing important work for our organization and they should be paid the same amount. So it wasn't actually that hard for us to institute that because our people weren't paid that differently but we instituted that policy. And then the other policy we put in was a, I called it 2% for equity which was just putting 2% of our budget into a line that we didn't know what it would be used for but we knew it would be used for anything that came up around racial justice or issues in the community that needed professional facilitators or moderators, community meetings. So we had that money there and set aside for whatever came up in that coming fiscal year. And that's something I've seen in the We See You White American Theater document which is organizations need to set aside specific budget amounts for racial equity training and for equity issues as they come up because otherwise we all know you're not gonna prioritize or support that initiative if it's not in the budget. So you have to put it in the budget ahead of time and keep it there every single year. So I was proposing and no one's taken me up on this yet but I proposed like 1%, 2%, whatever you think is the right amount of your organizational budget just put it there, keep it there every year. And I'll be kind. I do think that a lot of these things would be addressed if the ability to engage in the budget making process was more horizontal. I mean, if your interns have a say in your budget and your budget is voted on by your community or democratically voted on by your staff, you're probably not gonna end up, hopefully not with the CEO who's being paid 400,000 times more then you're not gonna end up with unpaid interns because the interns are gonna be like, I'd like to get paid, I have to pay rent and eat food as a human. I'm really curious with Flux because you guys have this open book process what that's been like for you guys. Yeah, well, first of all, in terms of the decision-making Flux practices is a very horizontal level. We're all creative partners. We got rid of most of our other titles a couple of years ago. So when we decide a budget, everybody throws in on that budget. In terms of, I'm sorry, what was the other part of your question? I kind of lost it. If, I'm just curious more about how does the open book process work and the whole company has a voice in... Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I do wanna give credit where it's due. We do have a money expert among the creative partnership that is Heather Cohn and she deserves to be like, shouted out by name every single time because she does come up with these budgets and that's really hard work and she does that. I actually, if you don't mind, I actually have one of our open budgets queued up here if I could share my screen. Oh, great. Yeah, you should be able to. I did it. There we go. So this is from our program for operating systems, which is the last in-person show that we did. And you can see we actually, for all of our shows, come up with three budgets. The first column representing our current budget, the second column representing a budget if we paid everybody minimum wage, and then the third column being a budget if we paid everybody a living wage, which is of course, as we know, a minimum wage is not a living wage in New York. Some things stay largely the same. The theater venue is gonna be exactly the same, but you can see very quickly the artist fees, the artist fees change quite a bit. So we put this on our website. We link to it in the ticketing documents. We sometimes shout it out in the theaters, in the curtain speech, and of course it is like the back page of everybody's program. So they're really getting, every audience member is getting a document that looks substantially like this at multiple points during the production process or during the performance process. Jason, do you wanna add things on this? Yeah, sure. And the other kind of big component to the open book, I guess, program is also our living ticket. So at some point, I was not a creative part at this point, but at some point a decision was made to remove all financial requirements for our financial transaction to be welcomed into our stage. It was kind of piggybacking off of a lot of great work around radical hospitality that a lot of other theaters have been doing. And so we had been bumping up against the kind of, the New York kind of showcase code. Some of you might be familiar with it, where with the Actors Union, we were limited to how much we could charge for a seat in a 99 seat theater or less, which made it very difficult to be able to make any kind of sizable returns so that we would be able to pay our actors any kind of minimum, not even the minimum wage, but you know, any kind of wage. Siphon, yeah, exactly. So in an effort to kind of get around those rules, we had the idea of kind of opening our doors, letting anybody come in and see the show without having to pay a payment, but also being really upfront about kind of our values and our aspirations, about what we wanted to do with the money. And so we lay out these budgets and we kind of state, we encourage you to support our work. And here are the numbers for, if everybody who comes to see one of our shows gives at these different levels, we could make these budgets. These budget numbers are not impossible. So it's a way of actively engaging with our audience members as not only as like, in terms of like accountability, but also actively engaging them as collaborators in making this kind of financial aspiration possible. Yeah, the big thing we found from doing this, the thing that sort of surprised me so much is when people see like numbers like this and that had previously, like they'd given $18 because that's the maximum that they, and they're like, yes, I am supporting theater. And like then seeing this, like realizing like $18 doesn't even cover our current budget. It costs 25 and a half thousand dollars to put this show on the stage. And if we filled every single seat and every person paid $18, we would only be making three quarters of our budget just like that. And we'll never get towards any sort of sustainability. So once people are sort of confronted with that reality, we find that, A, a lot of people give a lot more than $18 and then B, also there are people that for whom $18 was kind of hard for them. And they also feel more welcome in this space because they know that someone else is giving and they can come for $5 or $10 or $0 and that's fine too. Another kind of like benefit of this kind of model is that it's really opened up the doors for us in terms of engaging universities and their student populations. We've built some great relationships with theater professors who send all of your rambunctious students to our shows. But it's really wonderful because we would never have necessarily engaged so deeply with like, you know, I think one of the professors is teaches at a community college in the Bronx and like that would probably not be a new audience for us. You know, this is so exciting. I mean, I'm just losing my mind over here. I love it. I'm so curious to hear from y'all if there was inspiration for this or if there are places that you've been sharing this information and kind of inspiring other folks to take a look at the way that they're, you know, thinking about their approach to audience and transaction. Yeah, absolutely. We were inspired a lot by, I think we do some shout outs on our website and I wanna get exactly right. I love the accountability. Yeah. Yeah, it is great. Let's see, it is on our open book page but I'm trying to, we haven't revised this in a while. Something with blood in it. What was the, oh, mixed blood. Mixed blood, that's it. Mixed blood, thank you. They were, they also do a similar. Around like any sort of thunder tension if they were going to feel uncomfortable that I told folks that they gave me $50,000 or they gave me $50 and they shouldn't give it to me in the first place and they shouldn't be a public entity because that's already public knowledge. Anyway, Ronnie. Yeah, my feedback to both questions is really that going line by line in terms of where the money's coming from and who it's going to and having a conversation to say, hi, we're looking to be more transparent about our processes. We would love to shout out specifically what our relationship is, what are your concerns and if there are concerns, you bundle and you try to be, and you then become transparent about percentages like what are your concerns what percentage are you earned versus contributed? What percentage of your funds are coming from what kinds of sources? What kinds of like are you divesting from fossil fuels? That's like a statement and a commitment you can make without a lot of, I mean, if it's true, it's true. So there's, I think there's a lot of ways around it and my experience with not individual funders and funding entities is that there's a whole movement to support publicly transparent budgeting. I mean, and the real field leaders right now, like I'm thinking Mellon for New England Foundation for the arts, they are really wanting to see folks be more transparent hell in their grant applications about really what they're doing and how they're spending funds. And on every aspect of it, I think that that's a movement that's happening. So if anything, I feel like the tension is that they want folks to be more transparent and not hold as much as close to the vest. I mean, I also want to voice and that I want to transition to that last question real, real to a bit in the last two minutes before we go to the end being, but I also want to voice that if there is an anxiety about listing lines, funder by funder by public entity, at that, so to say, to really be very transparent and very clear about where that fear is coming from or where the uncomfortableness is. As an example, if you're an organization with a commitment to climate justice, but you don't want people to know that you're taking money as an example from, oh, I don't know, One Oak, which is a fossil fuel company that is doing terrible things to the environment, maybe we should reevaluate our values here. Anyway, and so that should never be a deterrent because of anything that just continues that cycle of oppression. And so to really sit and really be very crystal clear about where those anxieties are and if those anxieties are around, well, we need to get consent. Great, let's go get some consent and then go from there. Or if it's, we don't want people to know how we're getting all money because we don't want Ms. Doris Duke to close her purse, even though what she's been doing to the indigenous people of Hawaii and to the environment, it's not great. Just some examples. And so with that, have you folks put your things on your website to sort of close that aside on the discussion? I'm wondering, I know Annalisa, you had a thought that you wanted to maybe close this out with. Is there, do you want to jump in? Oh, sure, yeah. I was just thinking about, I'm going to, this slide, I'm going to share one more slide that doesn't make a ton of sense anymore, but there is some useful stuff on it. And it is, let's see, this one. Did I do it? Did it work? Okay, great. I was just thinking about connecting explicitly all of the conversation that we've been having with climate justice and like, what does all of the publicly transparent budgeting have anything to do with the climate crisis and these conversations that we're always having? And so what's on the screen right now is a slide and the point that I wanted to make was that it says, eco is home, know me is management. So the word economy, if you split it out into its roots is home and management. And so when we think about, for example, like ecology and the natural world, if we think about that as our home and we think of economy as how do we manage our home? How does that shift our relationship to thinking about the flow of money or the flow of resources or the flow of value? Like all of these things that we've been talking about, how do they live inside of the ecology that we also all are a part of? And I just wanna offer that as a question, if we really think about economy and economies in a different way as we are related to the earth and to each other. That is some lovely food for thought. So on our Facebook page tomorrow, all the links that we've mentioned, all the great resources will be in a Google Doc that you all can view and will also include that economy information on that too. And so with that, again, I'm being cognizant of everyone's time. And so thank you all so much for coming and making space with us today. A huge, huge thank you goes to our friends at HowlRound, our lovely, lovely guests and friends with Flux Theater Ensemble and Pretty New Futures. It's so lovely to have you all. Oh my God, we keep going all day. It's y'all been now. Good day. Anyway, for all of this support and also a huge, huge thank you to our captioner today. It takes an entire village to make a series happen. And so as we mentioned, this is the fourth call in our series and we'd really appreciate feedback from y'all. Our goal is to make these calls low stress and generative for relationship building and connection across the field about what a green new theater could look like and will look like. And so if you have any feedback that you would like to share with us, feel free to shoot us an email at groundwaterarts.gmail.com with any feedback about the format, what worked for you, what didn't, what you think you could do better or what you'd love to experience in a green new theater call. The fifth chapter of the Green New Theater series will take place on November 18th. Same time, same place, 7 p.m. Eastern, 4 p.m. Pacific. And it is also Native American Heritage Month in the U.S. And we will be covering the right relationship to land and history. My personal favorite one. So buckle up friends, it's gonna be a time, November 18th. Anyway, yeah, so keep in touch with us. You can check this out on the email again. We have a Slack, we do. It's groundwaterarts.slack.com. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram as well as go follow our lovely friends at Flux and at Creating New Futures. And again, all their information has been linked in the chat on the Facebook comments and it'll be in our document tomorrow. Look at that y'all, one minute to spare. Thank you all so much. And I'm out with some more royalty-free music. All right.