 Well as people are checking in on the chat wants to welcome you all to Anabaptist Witness Dialogues This is a new webinar of Anabaptist Witness Journal. I'm Jamie Pitts. I edit Anabaptist Witness Journal and I'll be your host I'm enjoying seeing where people are checking in from and as Andrew Hudson mentioned we are here in the St. Joseph River watershed on Pottawatomie and Miami ancestral land currently part of the Pocahigian Band Pottawatomie territory And it's wonderful to see folks from not only all over North America, but the world so welcome to you all I am very pleased In this first Anabaptist Witness Dialogues Session to be joined by Elaine Inns and Shed Myers Elaine is a restorative justice educator and Shed is an activist theologian They are partners, Mennonites and co-directors of Bartimaeus Cooperative Ministries On unceded Chumash territory in the Ventura River watershed of Southern, California In 2009 they co-authored the two-volume work Ambassadors of Reconciliation and today we'll be discussing their forthcoming book healing haunted histories a settler discipleship of decolonization Welcome Elaine and Shed Thank you, Jamie. It's great to be here We are beaming in from Chumash territory and I just want to say a quick Thank you. There's just so many folks on the chat So grateful to see you all and I do want to do a special shout-out to Marlene Epp I'm assuming that is the Marlene from Conrad Rable University. She was a professor of mine and Greatly influenced this work. So Marlene, thanks so much for being a part of this Elaine Shed, why don't you start off by just giving a description of the book? What's this book about? Well, hey everybody. Good morning from the West Coast You know tomorrow we celebrate the birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr. here in the US. It's a national holiday Almost 60 years ago This greatest American prophet wrote quote for too long the depth of racism in American life has been underestimated the surgery necessary to extract it is necessarily complex and detailed We have to x-ray our history to reveal the full extent of the disease And then King goes on to say our nation Was born in genocide when it embraced the doctrine that the original American the Indian was an inferior race Even before there were large numbers of Negroes on our shore the scar of racial hatred had already disfigured colonial society And he concludes by saying it is this tangled web of prejudice From which many Americans now seek to liberate themselves without realizing how deeply It has been woven into their consciousness end quote Well, obviously, you know, these words take on an even more poignant Meaning after last week's white supremacist assault on this nation's capital But it is also a dramatic and concise statement of the problem that we're trying to tackle in this book We seek to engage what he called the full extent of the disease of settler colonialism in north america we decided to describe it in biblical terms as unclean spirits that continue to both occupy the land and resources And possess our communities and psyches We all inhabit This history of dispossession disparity and racist violence that has been unfolding over five millennia Leaving no corner of turtle island untouched And we are all haunted by these spirits so We who are descendants of european settlers We typically try to cope with our dis ease through denial and self exoneration Even as we continue to benefit from a continuing colonial system But of course this only exacerbates the problem So in this book we work to expose And heal from these unclean spirits By articulating the where the who and the why Of what king called this tangled web into which we are so deeply woven and so we explore Three trajectories and the first is landlines and here we're exploring where our ancestors came from And then where they settled and then where we settled And the stories of violence and struggle for justice on those lands And secondly we explore bloodlines and this is our embodied story Which we have inherited biologically and psychically From the our familial racial ethnic gender cultural formation So it includes travails and privileges cultural loss and assimilation And our settler moves to innocence and moral injury And then the third is songlines And by this we mean our convictional traditions of faith That foster resilience And animate practices that help us to be human And to work for justice and healing of ourselves and society So these are our ways of examining our histories Our communities and landscapes which have shaped With and they've been they have been shaped and they've been miss shaped by settler colonialism And so they've formed and deformed us and that's the work we're trying to uncover in this book That's powerful. Thank you I wonder how you know you talk about this kind of deep history of settler colonization White supremacy racism How did you come to write a book like this? How did you come to write a book on healing and settler colonization? Yeah, you know, and I wonder if my answer is going to resonate with other other folks I see a lot of folks that are a part of The canadian ruslander community whose grandparents parents or great grandparents came From russia in the 1920s So as a child, I knew that something horrible had happened to all four of my men night Grandparents and again each of them came to suscatchewan as refugees of the russian revolution But nobody Was talking about it I wanted to understand So at the age of 13, I interviewed my maternal grandmother on this little cassette tape And she spoke at length about the beauty and abundance her family had enjoyed during her childhood years in ostrovik ukraine But as her narrative approached her teenage years, she began to weak And she could not continue And because my gross mama was a joyful person and full of laughter Seeing her cry left an indelible impression on me And this planted seeds of both curiosity And depredation And only later would I learn how many women of my grandmother's generation suffered From ptsd and how the silence around their experiences negatively impacted our community But the power of my grandmother's testimony And her tears inspired me to keep asking questions in the years to come And then another episode that shaped me in my final year of college at what is now CMU Was when I volunteered with the big sister's little sister's program in winnipeg And I was paired with a 13 year old kree girl Who had just been released from juvenile detention She was living in a group who was pregnant for the second time Her so-called crimes were behaviors that of course I now understand To be reactions to a racist colonial system that didn't meet her basic human needs She she described to me the pain of being forced to give up her first child And of not having any idea of where he was And so on the cusp of adulthood myself This encounter raised a new set of questions about her ancestors How they had been displaced by mine on the canadian prairies And in retrospect, I believe this was my first tutorial in the hard truths of colonization So this book is in part an attempt to understand how the lives of these three barely Teenaged girls my grandmother me and my little kree sister are woven together Of course several other other experiences intruded on my otherwise insular and privileged suburban existence Causing more disillusionments with my comfortable middle-class white world But neither the church nor school Offered avenues to process or understand the silences Around family or indigenous trauma. And so this is the work that actually drove me Into the restorative justice field and then in turn has led to this project I For my part, I don't come from a bentonite background Um But in 1980 as a young activist, I had the great fortune of attending an international conference of indigenous sovereignty leaders from around the pacific basin And that encounter changed the course of my activist work And I spent the next decade living and working among indigenous communities that were dealing with the negative impacts of environmental degradation by industrial economies superpower military bases And continuing economic and political colonization throughout the pacific basin and pacific rim Some of my colleagues and mentors from that time Went on to help lay the groundwork for what became the watershed united nations declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples And they ceded the indigenous resurgence movement beginning with the worldwide protests around the columbus quincean tenery in 1992 So um as elaine's work has turned over the last decade more and more toward indigenous justice We saw a chance to collaborate on issues about which we both feel really passionate So in this project, we feel called to invite and to support fellow descendants of european settlers into what we call a discipleship of decolonization Certainly this is a moment in the united states where questions of long-standing racial injustice are in the air With an unprecedented intensity We're also aware that as white folk we can easily become overwhelmed Or paralyzed by this work And we are frankly forever trying to deflect it so In this project, we take an approach that attempts to be both Subjective and objective that is looking at both personal and political dimensions of our colonial past and present It's uh, it's therefore a mix of memoir of mostly having to do with elaine's family and community of social analysis Uh of theological reflection And it also means to be a practical work workbook for those wanting to go deeper into this work Um, I also want to say jamie that we we see this book as a kind of a companion to our watershed discipleship volume about bioregional faith and practice that was published five years ago Um, emphasizing that every one of our watersheds Have been disfigured by this painful colonial history Um, and therefore ecological re-inhabitation Must face these racist legacies Not just environmentally dysfunctional ones um, I I saw that luke criter in his overview in the men and i quarterly review this year of Varieties van abaptus environmentalism And the challenge of environmental racism Um reviewed our watershed discipleship project and he felt that it didn't sufficiently address a place's geography of privilege And its cycles of social power as he put it In fact, we believe the first order of watershed discipleship is to understand the colonial history and legacy of one's bioregion Uh, and moreover that decolonization is best done at a watershed scale with indigenous communities So we trust that criter's concerns Will have been addressed in this new book which Traces these landlines and bloodlines across three Different watersheds in three different countries from ukraine to canada to california Thanks so much for sharing how this work comes out of your own lives. I think you know where you just ended shed talking about how Our own inhabitation information within specific watersheds Necessarily implicates us in this this deeper history. I think you both have really testified to that By narrating how this project comes out of your own lives. So thank you for doing that I want to turn to talk a bit more about the Contents of the book and as I do so I want to let everybody listening know that at the bottom bar of the the zoom app. You can see a q&a feature and if you have a question for chet Orlane Please feel free to enter your question into that q&a. We Work together try to time the interview so that we'll have we'll have enough time for At least a couple questions. We'd love to hear from you and hear your thoughts And hear a lane and sheds response to what you have to say. So please make use of that q&a Box and we will get your questions in a little while Coming back to the book though this title, you know, you've got you've nailed the alliteration So Feeling haunted history is a beautiful title, but also a haunting title in itself, you know an evocative title and I wonder if you could talk about What you mean by that? What is what is that title trying to say? What kind of themes? Is it raising and you know the book opens with this description of stony knoll which you describe as a humble hill Lying near the northern edge of the great plains and you call this a contested a sacred but contested site Why would you start Here, you know as a way into this idea of healing haunted history. What what is a hill this hill have to do with haunting? um So this rather obscure concept of haunting We think can be very illuminating to our task Sociologist Avery Gordon describes Haunting as a constituent element of modern social life Through which suppressed or unresolved social violence makes itself known in everyday life This is especially true when we settlers think this what violence is done with or it's in the past Or when it's oppressive nature is continuously denied So for example when george floyd dies because of a police knee on his neck It immediately conjures up a flood of powerful hauntings in the consciousness of both white and black folk Gordon points out that such moments of reckoning With collective hauntings can animate social movements of justice That can heal these violations and we've seen this over the last few years in the black lives matter movement Or with the water protectors at standing rock So these hauntings of past violations will never go away Until justice is restored We open our book by naming two places of haunting One from where I grew up in Saskatchewan and it's pictured here And the other where we live now in the Ventura river watershed So this is stony knoll up wash now to cotton now in Cree It's about 45 miles north of my hometown in Saskatoon This site typifies how indigenous land was taken by the colonial state And given to settlers and here is the story In 1876 chief young chip away and signed treaty six in exchange for a 30 square mile tract of land Of which up wash them now to cut now is at the symbolic center But a decade later the government without consultation or compensation to the band reassigned this land to Mennonite settlers The young chip away and thus became a landless band 100 years later in august of 1976 the government Sponsored gala was planned to celebrate treaty six But indigenous groups in Saskatchewan were defiant calling it a century of broken promises And during the event some young chip awayans went to visit their historic land And they wanted to speak with farmers living in the area Well, this stirred up fear anxiety Prejudice among some of the Mennonites living in that area It was a very difficult season But eventually that has led to some restorative work It was led by the young chip awayans the office of the treaty commissioner in Saskatchewan Supported by Mennonite and Lutheran farmers and churches in the area and Mennonite Central Committee Saskatchewan On On my part in the late 1960s My family used to go camping on the Gaviota coast northwest of Santa Barbara One of the last undeveloped areas of chaparral habitat left in coastal southern california In the heart of indigenous shumash country My time among those oak studded canyons and pristine beaches made a huge psychic imprint imprint on my adolescent consciousness Connecting me to a sense of place as a fifth generation californian My dad loved to explore remote areas of the state Perhaps because his mother was a california a mexican californian So we often camped in a place called tahigua's canyon Former site. I learned much later of a shumash village called tahiwa One year my dad called attention to an old coast live oak And Uh, it was a rendering as you can see here of um a shumash neophyte receiving communion from a spanish Padre This site is near one of the 21 franciscan missions that form the backbone of spanish colonization of alta california Stretching from san diego to sonoma at the time Similar to elaine's story. There was no conversation about the history behind this image We just called it the indian tree. It was kind of a curiosity But it was my first exposure as an already alienated teenager growing up in an unchurched home To the heavy footprint of the missionary colonizing history in my home bioregion And this fading photograph which is hung on my wall for the 40 years since It's always haunted me So now we live in shumash country And work with local elders and activists Trying to understand and heal that past So that's those are a couple of reasons why the the notion of haunting we find to be a very uh animating one Yeah, well, that's powerfully Rooted in your stories I can hear um And I think probably most not all of us in this call can uh think to our own hauntings and think about our own ways that um our formation Is haunted by these settler uh colonial histories. I wonder you know in the in the Sub title of the of the book is uh a settler Discipleship of decolonization so this suggests kind of a broader um Practice I wonder beyond kind of going deep into our own family histories What what are you hoping for people to be able to do to to address these haunted histories? Well, as you know, um the term decolonization has become very popular over the last decade both in academia and also in social justice circles and Frankly to some extent it's gotten rather diluted So unangash scholar eve tuck argues that Decolonization should connote the concrete struggle for the repatriation of indigenous land and life It should not function simply as a vague metaphor for all manner of social justice work We agree and we think that doing this landlines bloodlines and songlines work Helps each of us to discover how we settlers are all implicated in this history And des eased by the colonial spirits of occupation and possession In order to be about healing then our our discipleship must lead to contextual repractices of Reschooling ourselves in this history and legacy of practicing restorative solidarity and above all experimenting with reparative justice And so we understand a settler discipleship of decolonization to mean What audrey lord calls doing our own work And this is about learning the history of the lands where our immigrant ancestors settled and where we live now And the struggles for justice in those places It's about reckoning with harms and building capacity for responsibility It's about combating ways we settlers practice a willful unknowing And our moves to innocence And it's about making covenants and taking concrete steps of solidarity In relationship with communities injured by past and present injustices At the conclusion of the book we highlight practices of reparative initiative Taken by individuals denominations and governmental bodies that have experiment or that are experimenting with decolonization and some of these are very almost simple processes To get us involved in this work and then some are very costly Practices and so we invite readers to join us on that journey to imagine what what our Practices as individuals churches denominations communities could be That's really helpful. So it sounds like it's not just about getting to know your own story and thinking, you know thinking about how your own, you know, your own lives are implicated, but it's also about How that work is part of but only part of the work of seeking repair and justice That is challenging work I mean just just to think carefully about our own lives is hard work enough And I know you talk a lot about trauma in the book and trauma healing and so forth But I'm wondering, you know, when you think about and when you've talked about and written about these kind of Systemic issues. Have you received pushback? Has there been challenges to your approach that you've you've heard? You think Yeah, of course and and those challenges are not just around us there within us and so that's why we devote a whole section in the book to Really trying to examine our settler strategies of denial and resistance So one prominent example is the way in which we all tend to feel personally detached from history That's a uniquely North American settler conceit. It's a kind of a Historic individualism that we understand ourselves as free floating entities that are neither constrained Much less advantaged by the past So I am neither connected nor accountable to a history Which is not my fault. I didn't displace indigenous peoples I don't own slaves And moreover, I am disinterested in how I might continue to benefit from in the present from these historic arrangements And then if demands for justice do impinge upon my consciousness I see no reason to revisit the past So that you know, that's kind of a typical little bit stereotypical description of One of our strategies of denial We often find ourselves using the common dodge quote Just let sleeping dogs lie and we we research this and interestingly this council dates back 300 years To britain's first prime minister robert wallpole in the mid 18th century wallpole was trying to deflect attention From how england's policies of extracting wealth from the american colonies were impacting the new world and Among the sleeping dogs that he wished to leave unexamined Was how his own fortune had been made in the new world's speculative market for slaves and exotic imports So it's a little bit like how right now some trump aligned republican lawmakers are Responding to last week's armed assault on the u.s. Capitol by exhorting us to just move past it and try to heal the divisions Divisions that they themselves have been militantly sowing Rather than squarely facing that historic violation and the forces behind it and Demanding accountability Canadian sociologist francis swerpa in her book storied landscapes identifies another typical strategy The settler luxury of forgetting But she warns that the absolution of abnesia Just makes us afraid of our own past and of contention and of the contention it invites A helpful diagnostic term that we've found is colonial agnausia and this means We don't know about the past and present violations of colonization We don't know what we don't know And we simply don't really care This is the foundation of what eve top calls settlers moves to innocence And these are our attempts to convince ourselves that we aren't responsible For or to the history and the ongoing disaster of colonization This imagined innocence in turn undermines our personal and political ability to respond hence our use of the term response ability Dina gilio widaker Borrowing from robin de angelo's popular work Calls these strategies of self exoneration settler fragility And this is the need to distance oneself from complicity And the inability to talk about unearned privilege And I want to say because we are talking to a menonite audience and it is a menonite story That is running through this book This book is just me doing my own work About what I have had I have inherited in my menonite Community and family and story and so the book invites everybody To do that own work. So some of the resistance we've heard is that man, you're hard on menonites. Well, Everybody doing their own work is going to all settlers doing their own work are going to be hard And I mean hopefully compassionate and balanced on trying to wrestle through Our family and communal narrative and the ways that we Step into agnazia Moves to innocence all of settler fragility so I think you probably hooked a lot of us here. You certainly have hooked me In this this short interview so far um And you cast a vision of doing you know as you quoted audrey lord doing this work on ourselves um with these different issues in mind When we Sit down and read this book and close the last page What are you hoping to happen? What do you what do you hope for us to get out of it and and what kind of difference? Do you hope the book will make? Thank you Our friend didi risher in her beautiful book Called the soul making room wonders If we are honest about our pain Will we cause another to falter? And will our vulnerability bring us healing? Or will it simply become eviscerated by spectator pity? But she exhorts us tell the truth about everything Especially the things that go wrong So this is kind of guided our work and the great swiss psychotherapist carl yung wisely warned The right way to wholeness is made up unfortunately of fateful detours and wrong turnings It is the long isima via It is not straight, but it is snake-like A path whose labyrinthine twists and turns are not lacking in terrors So this work requires both inward and outward journeys as we try to deconstruct our settler presumptions of innocence Entitlement and hegemony while trying to deepen our relationships with indigenous communities Our settler way to wholeness is indeed a labyrinthine One of disillusionment Weaning ourselves off of devised and dismembered identities and histories and that's what we focus on in part one and de-assimilation And restorative restorative solidarity which we focus on in part two A discipleship of decolonization equips and inspires white settler christians and others to do our own work Facing past and present looking within and around us Struggling for justice here and now And to engage our circles of landlines bloodlines and song lines Is to embrace the promise of the old shaker song Tis the gift to come down where we ought to be To bow and to bend we shan't be ashamed But to turn and turn Will be our delight till by turning turning we come round right We saw a beautiful glimpse of this hope at our bar to mass kinsler institute last year Which we hold annually here in southern california in which participants delved deeply into this kind of work At the conclusion of a very intense week one of our indigenous interlocutors Our friend harry lefond a muskeg lake kree elder from siskatswin led more than a hundred of us in around dance A beautiful tradition that is linked to the northern lights which kree believe our spirits of ancestors dancing To help us heal And it did help us And then local local schumacher scholar matthew vestudo offered a ventureño phrase Huki shunush kui To describe the goal of our work It connotes a different kind of settling he explains An agreement to do something good together in the future a promise or a covenant So it is our very much our prayer that this book will help equip and empower us as settlers to dance together With our indigenous neighbors into a decolonized future So that indeed by turning turning we come around right And we appreciate this opportunity to talk with you all about it Well may that vision be so thank you so much for sharing About your book and your own journey in writing this book. Uh, can't wait to see it soon Um and as one commenter says the vision of midnight's dancing is itself powerful Yeah We have a couple questions in a few minutes to address them. So uh, the first question comes from devin miller who's a recent anabaptist witness author so you can uh read an essay by him and um alongside uh, elaine and ched's Book preview in the new issue of anabaptist witness Um, but devin asked do you see decolonization as a goal or as a process? What would complete decolonization look like? Well, yeah, I mean I I think the answer to that is yes. It's it's a goal and a process And I think the the way is made in the walking of it the You know 500 years of colonization has so remade the landscape and our communities and our psyches That it's actually difficult to imagine what it would be like to to live truly free of it And that makes it both difficult to sometimes articulate but also Energizes the the process because of its urgency to really remake ourselves But you know, we we are people of faith who embrace a tradition that The apostle paul and second chrithians And likened a conversion to being a whole new human being A whole new people in christ Based on reconciliation, which he saw not as A cheap kind of grace like settlers asking for immediate forgiveness for past wrongs But rather this notion of balancing the books and restoring equity So I think that that's why we use the term discipleship. It is an unfolding and walking this way oftentimes without knowing The next what's what's around the next turn So yeah, I think it's very much of a journey in a in a pilgrimage And I and I would just add and this is where I probably bring it back to the the idea of a watershed discipleship because You know, what does decolonization look like and and at its center is Authentic relationship with indigenous folks and determining how to take these steps together We I don't think as settlers can determine When we have reached a level of decolonization, but in relationship with indigenous folks and Coming alongside being directed by their desires for Where we should focus energies of justice and struggle Helps shape what our discipleship of decolonization looks like The only way to really answer the question is to do it Yes, yeah, exactly. It's to engage in the relationships because we are not the people who are going to be able to say Whether we're really doing it We have a question from Sheldon Burke halter that asks it refers to The book preview and so if folks listening have not seen the preview of healing haunted histories that we published on our website I invite you to go to the website and find that A really wonderful essay is one of the kind of theological interlude reflections in the book Sheldon asks in reference to the essay one might think about The words and story of joshua in the conquest of palestine interpretation and language are very important I think the point if I can interpret this question somewhat Is asking about what kind of frameworks are most adequate to understanding what's going on and the example That Sheldon gives is when we talk about the doctrine of discovery, should we be talking about the church? That includes, you know Mennonites and Presbyterians and so forth or should we be talking about the pope? Who you know, who's both papal bulls and so forth got that process underway Um, what is the primary? What what is the best kind of frame of reference that we should be using? When we speak and act as christians Hmm Yeah, well that I guess uh, that's a little bit like Asking, you know, when we try to understand the constitution should we be talking about john lock or Uh, john adams. I mean, it's there's a history of the development of ideas and yeah, it um the doctrine of discovery Got its start with papal bulls in the 15th century, but um, it's Long history of both theological doctrine and legal doctrine Has pervaded both ecclesial culture and political culture. So I think our denominations not least mc us and mc canada have done a good job at trying to both trace this history and Can you know confront this history? I don't like that word repudiate because that's sometimes a little too easy All we have to do is denounce something actually what we have to do is we have to understand the full extent of that disease in us Um, including low church dissident denominations like menonites But I do think it's good that we're doing that work within our own denominations Menonites have their own doctrine of discovery coalition. I think that's great. Um There are also obviously cat roman catholics who are working on this. Um, uh, very expressly in the vatican So we're doing our own work. We're doing our own denominational work. Um, but this is a collective history and Whether or not we're catholic we we've all been shaped by doctrines of discovery. So, uh, that's that's an example of the layers Of trying to untangle this, uh, this web that's woven around us obviously a key one And I just want to add that most of the major denominations in North america or turtle island are working on repudiating the doctrine of discovery but also working on issues of of decolonization so are not Well, I are doing that are doing that work, which is a hopeful sign Thank you We'll have time for one more question And if we don't get to all of the questions here, feel free to follow up with any of us you can find our contact online and I will in a moment give the last word to elaine and ched to talk a bit about more about how you can find their book And how you can connect with them So, uh, but our our last question is a very practical question and it kind of goes back to you know, ched I think it was you who quoted eve tuck in her definition of decolonization being very practically oriented towards uh indigenous land restoration and frank ramirez says anyone actually given land back Yes, um, there are a You know, we highlight one example of a quaker woman who Where she's in the midwest somewhere But gave her land back to the onida tribe In new york. Thank you. Um There are other individuals Some of which are menonites who have given shares of the sale of their land So there there are experiments of giving land back on an individual level. There's certainly examples of Denominations giving land back um Catholics at rosebud presby rosebud reservation Presbyterians at stony point just outside of new york methodists to the yandot tribe And then larger political government bodies. So yes, it is out there. Um Just simply googling online Repatriation to indigenous tribes bands and then in our book we we again go through highlighting a number of these efforts In in our work, we like to say that no step is too small and no step is too great And so we we try to trace personal initiatives community initiatives church congregation denominational initiatives political initiatives such as the A small town in northern california gave back an island To the indigenous tribe that had been massacred there 150 years ago So this is and and these are all small experiments in many ways. They're they're symbolic, but they're also substantive that It takes these small initiatives to open up space for the next step and the next step and so obviously it's our hope that We followers of jesus can be on the vanguard of these experiments trying to show the way For the tradition of what we call in our tradition repentance Which is the process of turning ourselves around both personally and politically And embracing a vision of the kingdom. So again, we're we're so grateful to Have this opportunity to talk with our fellow nanonites About this project and really hope that it can be a useful tool to y'all in your own work Well, thank you so much to both of you for what you've done your life of witness to these To the call to repentance and the possibility of healing and real turning and thank you for this contribution of this book I'll let you say in a moment about where people can find it And connect with you more but before we do so I want to thank everyone For joining us here for this first of our anabaptist witness dialogues series We'll be back on February 11th with randy The hallooza delay a canadian sociologist who has an article in our new issue of anabaptist witness and randy woodley an indigenous theologian Talking about this question around displacement of indigenous peoples and land. So hope you'll join us for that As I mentioned at the beginning anabaptist witness dialogues is a Webinar new webinar series from anabaptist witness journal, which I edit The journal is a publication of anabaptist midnight biblical seminary midnight central committee midnight church canada in midnight mission network And many thanks to those agencies for their support For the journal and for this webinar you can learn more about the journal about anabaptist witness on our Website anabaptist witness dot org as well as on our twitter facebook and instagram feeds And the person who is responsible for Maintaining those feeds is the person who has been behind the scenes bringing this webinar about that is marcos acosta a student at ambias And my assistant on this project and so a huge thanks to him He will be actually Hosting in march when he interviews his father louisa costa And linda shelly from midnight mission network and in reference to the last question. They will be talking about work that the a team of menonites Working with the midnight mission network in the argentine chaco Accompanied a group of moco v indigenous community And buying back their land In the argentine chaco so a very relevant piece that you can read if you read spanish Also on our website We invite you to do that Thanks to you all and especially thanks to elaine and ched for your presence here Where can we get your book? Well, thank you and thanks to all of you who have hung on here till the end. We've got an offer for you Healing haunted histories will be available In mid-february And if you visit and ched just posted this so if you visit ched mires.org back H h h And sign up for our email list We will send you a 40 percent off coupon Um these books ain't cheap. These books are not cheap. It's a long book. It's 400 pages We tried to make it simpler. Yeah, I know we tried It didn't turn out that way it is 400 pages long So you have to pre-order We are only able to Share this discount through the end of end of january. So obviously 40 percent off is a significant Discount so if you're interested, please go to the website listed there There's another opportunity That we'd love to share with you all Our our nonprofit barmais cooperative ministry hosts an annual institute in mid-february. It's Previous years. We've always gathered together here on shumash territory in southern california But this year, of course, we're going to be online We look at aspects of biblical faith and social justice our last two gatherings have dealt with indigenous justice and settler solidarity With participants from all over north america australia Other places. So next month our program is going to be online And our theme is deepening practices of restorative solidarity Um, we're going to explore for the third time in a year Decolonizing discipleship and here from seasoned faith leaders like Choctaw bishop steve charleston Cherokee activist lawyer allison macrary fergusson activist and pastor star ski wilson and mcu sas own sue parker So for more information Go to our website under the study program and look for the barmais institute. So friends. We hope you can Join us again. Here is uh, chad just posted the information about the discount offer And then also about the barmais kinsler institute Thank you all and thank you jamie. Yeah, thank jamie. Yeah, it's been wonderful to be with you Thanks for this opportunity to speak about this book. We're excited. It's finally out there And it's wonderful to share it with you all and congratulations on launching the podcast. Yes. Thank you so much Thanks for being the first and uh, can't wait to see the book in print Thank you us too. Thanks everybody. Thank you all. Bye everyone