 Hello everybody and welcome to a OpenShift Commons gathering on community development. If you joined us a little bit earlier, we had a slight technical snafu with the sound, but other than that, things are going wonderful this morning. Thank you for joining us. If you've been to an OpenShift Commons gathering before, you've probably come for the tech. Usually we do OpenShift Commons gatherings around Kubernetes and KubeCon or Red Hat Summit or around a theme like machine learning and AI or telco or Edge or one of those things. And usually you'll hear a lot of engineers and technical folks talking about the latest and greatest technical releases and things like this. And you'll also hear a lot of people like myself who are the community development people that help to build the communities around these technologies. And so today, we are going to do something slightly different. We're going to be talking about developing the communities around the technologies and how we do that, what some of the best practices are, and all kinds of interesting conversations should arise from that. And I'm really pleased today to have with me my colleague and fellow researcher in this arena, Daniel Esquerdo from Bitersia. Want to say hi, Daniel, and introduce yourself. Hi, everyone. Yes, sir. So I'm really excited to be here with you. Also, thank you. Thank you, Diane, for this opportunity. So be about me. Well, I have to say I met the first time Diane in 2014 in OpenStack Savvy in Paris. That was the first time I heard about OpenShift and OKB and the project itself. Since then, we've been collaborating together and advancing in the research and the work we've been doing together. So be about me. I'm one of the founders of Bitersia. We started in 2012. We do silver development analytics at the scale. That means that we can analyze any ties, projects that matter to you. And in this case, what matters for today is, well, we'll discuss beyond these walls, but is OpenShift and CNCF ecosystem. So, yeah, lately, during the last couple of years, I've had the opportunity to join the Chaos Project as well. So the technology we are developing, of course, is open source remote labs part of this project chaos. And we'll have an introduction and what help means by the chairs of the project, Matt Germanprey and Gert Link. So I'm a board member there. And then I had the opportunity to serve as a member of the board of directors at the Inner Source Commons that we'll discuss about the Inner Source as well. So this is me, and I'm really happy to be here. So part of the reason that Daniel and I are in this together is in, we wrote an article a few, almost a year ago now, about moving from art to science when it comes to community development. And so we've been having these long discussions and doing a lot of work around understanding and analyzing who's in the community that we are working in. And it actually is really not about an individual community. It's about the massive cloud native ecosystem and all of the people. And if you read the article or if you've seen our talks on this, this is what I call the jellyfish diagram. So you'll see it quite often. And each one of these little dots here represents a person in some GitHub repos posted an issue of full release, full requests or merge or documentation or some issue on a mailing list somewhere and how they're all interconnected with each other. Each of the large bubbles represents different projects, whether it's at CD or Kubernetes or OpenShift. So we've been busy working together, mapping out all of the relationships and using that to really drive a conversation about how to understand how communities work and how they're interrelated because we're really kind of on it about cross community collaboration. So the other part of this puzzle is that there was a conference that was going to happen in ChaosCon in Austin. So we started this little conversation, Daniel and I, because ChaosCon got canceled that we thought and we had a paper accepted so we were going to go and talk there that it would be that what we were missing were the hallway conversations. Since we're not where everybody's virtual now, we don't get to meet our fellow community development folks and dev relations folks that we normally would get to either browbeat or ask for insights into what they're doing and how they're working on things. So we really had to really figure out a way to revive that piece of the puzzle that helped us understand what was going on and the coaching that we got from our fellow folks out there who are doing this. So we really kind of started to think about how we could set up something. And so today is really about having a very long conversation, eight hours with everybody that we would have liked to have seen at Kukon in person, in the hallway or at Red Hat Summit in person or at ChaosCon or any of the other events that are getting kind of side pushed aside for virtual stuff. And now we know this is virtual. We're streaming on Twitch and YouTube and on Facebook and it all is going to be recorded and we will be pushing it up on the YouTube channel afterwards in chunks so that you can digest it at your leisure. But our goal really is to kind of have the equivalent of a DevOps day or a GitOps day for community devs. So maybe a community dev day is kind of how I'm thinking about this. And today's focus is really on creating inclusive and diverse and connected and hopefully healthy communities of all types. The stuff that we do in business and technology, all of us have years of experience working together to build communities around technical and technology initiatives. And most of us outside of our work lives bring those skills to other initiatives and there's lots going on in the world today that we try and take, hopefully, what we've learned and using at work and apply them to things that are happening in the real world or the ever-changing world and bring more diversity and inclusivity and be better allies for other people out there in the world that need help and need our support. So one of the things we're gonna talk about today is really the diversity and the health of communities, how do the lessons that we've learned over the years really pushing the edge there and trying to get some of the experience from the massive amount of community leaders who have volunteered to show up today and talk about it, what the best practices are, what the lessons they've learned, how to measure health of a community, how to be a really good ally. We've got some great talks coming all day long. So please, if you have to drop out for an hour or two, come back and be part of this conversation. The way it's going to work, hopefully, if you're listening to this in Twitch or in YouTube or on Facebook or I think he's even streaming it to Periscope, I have no idea where that is. But all of the questions and the chat is aggregated and shared with us in the, we're using BlueJeans under the hood so that the speakers can get your questions and answer them. And I've staged the day so that what we'll have is a talk by one of the many speakers to set the conversation, to set us up for about a 30 minute AMA session or ask me anything session after that conversation. So we have a really kind of tight schedule, but I'm gonna say that it's gonna be a fluid day. So obviously we're running a little bit late already. We have some really amazing people that have decided that they're willing to share their experiences with us and tell us their stories. Liz Rice will be joining us shortly to talk about incubating cloud-native projects. She's the current chair of the CNCF's TOC or Technical Oversight Committee with a number of SIG leaders from the CNCF. I've decided to start to stage the day so that it would start off with something really pragmatic, something that we really, most of us who are on this call probably hold near and dear to ourselves is the cloud-native ecosystem, which the majority of us probably are members of. And then a colleague of mine, Jay Bloom, from Red Hat and Dimeji Onofua from Microsoft, who have been working together and our researchers in design. And it's not in design as in furniture, but as design as a real conceptual thing are gonna try and bring us through through a conversation about what we call recombining communities. And he'll explain that concept and talk a little bit about allyship as well. And so we'll have a conversation with them about that as well. And then we have folks from the Chaos Conference. Yorg and Matt are going to talk a little bit about what Chaos's initiative is, what their practices are. And then we have a number of folks who have been working closely with them who are gonna be available in the chat for that. And then in the afternoon, if all goes well, starting at 12.30, Tamal Nakahara from WeaveWorks, who most of you probably have run into at some conference. We've been colleagues on the road and she's worked with everybody from Pivotal to WeaveWorks to a huge amount of people in the dev relations space. It's very important to me that we do talk about DevRel as part of community building. We have lots of people who have huge careers and have done lots of great work building up through developer advocacy and evangelism or however you call it at your company. But there are a lot of the faces of who people meet to learn about our tech. And they also do have an important role. And then Tari Kares from OpenSac Foundation is gonna talk with us about some of the lessons that they've learned and where the OpenSac Foundation is going and what their journey has done because I think we can learn a lot from what they've done there and how they've reinvented themselves. We've had one slight cancellation. Josh Simmons at the last minute had an issue and can't join us. So we're gonna see if we can get Hong or Ilana to step up and give his talk but otherwise we'll turn the 230 into a panel. And then we have some closing remarks around what we're doing here and what we're gonna do next after this event. So just a quick word about the AMAs. They're ask me anything if you've ever been on Reddit they can get pretty interesting. We have three live streams going on today. The conversations are open to everyone. There is no price tag on this, it's precious. And we'll be aggregating the information and putting them in. We do request your patience as we learn the ropes of this new virtual conferencing process. As you can see we're already running a little bit behind and we've had some issues. So if you can just type it into the chat wherever you're watching this. We are watching the chat channels and we will try and aggregate all of your questions and get them answered. We do have a code of conduct. It's really be kind and respectful. We know this is virtual, it is open to all. We're really dedicated to providing a harassment-free experience for all the participants of our events. And we really ask you to behave in accordance with professional standards and respect your employer's policies and all the governing appropriate workplace behavior and applicable laws. And if you have questions about that you can click through. We're gonna try and imitate the Linux Foundation's code of conduct for today. So really, Dimeji who is going to be one of the presenters later today. We are going to really lean on a lot of folks here from that huge group of folks to lend us some of their privilege, provide some narratives and hopefully keep them honest about the lessons they've learned and their biases and all of that wonderful information that they have about building communities and try and share that with everybody. As I always say, my goal is to not talk. It's to give away the podium. But I think in this case, really what we're trying to do is use the tools and the privileges that we have as employees at some of the major corporations building the tech to empower other people. And really, as Dimeji says, it's really refuse to say silent, create spaces for people to share the information and hopefully build better communities, stronger communities and keep them engaged and healthy. So with that, I'm gonna pause and let Daniel fully talk for a few minutes. I would like to stress the idea that we have in the title for today of the CIF Commons Gathering on Community Development and it's not community management because the idea is that we are moving from a world where communities were a couple of hundred of people involved, having in mind everyone. So you can know all of your community members so you are all kind of a big community but now moving to a massive community as we have nowadays, for instance, CNCF ecosystem, we can have a look at the landscape, right? So it's like, that's the point where we need to go and move to a more data approach, data driven approach, so that's why this is happening. But in any case, I'd like to say, and I think this is really, really important that this is all about the members of those communities. It happens that with the tools that we have nowadays, we can help each other and reach out other members and newcomers and try to get out the onboarding process, have more inclusive communities and diverse communities and thanks to the data and the tooling, this is the way we can proceed nowadays. So yeah, I'd like to bring an anecdote here because so when we were presenting this paper that this is based in previous work we were doing together. So this is about the OpenSIFT and CNCF ecosystem what we were analyzing. So if you remember that car that we had before, that Jellify is that the really big one star was Kubernetes, right? But then at the bottom, one of the big ones were OpenSIFT. So then in OpenSIFT, that is what matters in this case to Diana, one of the projects that mattered to her. The interesting thing here was that we wrongly assigned the organization of a given developer and then it happened that given the connectors that Diane has in the community, it was really interesting that that guy was finally introduced to Diane through some other community members. In this case, as far as I remember, Red Haters. Yeah, thank you, thank you for the chat. And now then we discovered by then that this person was coming from another company and then that company is one of these large corporations in Asia. So they were kind of trying the technology and so on because this was what I remember, we found this in, you know, Katie in the corporate, well, I don't exactly remember, but the point was that even given this misunderstanding that we had with the data because we wrongly assigned the main of that person to a specific organization, then we realized that that person was coming from this large corporation. So suddenly this is like, oh, we have these people trying or taking the technology and that's really, really, really interesting. So what can we do from a community perspective to have a really onboarding and fast process to have these new people quickly helping and dealing with the community and knowing each other and so on. So it's true that we have this massive community that you see now in front of your screen but then each of the dots are the important ones. Then we have connectors, we have main events, we have important people here and there. So that's the interesting thing. There was a Harvard Business Review article and it was very much focused on continuous connection with customers and I've been doing a lot of thinking about cross-community collaboration and from the diagram that you saw with the jellyfish there, how is one who is a community development person supposed to manage all of those connections and understand those and keep up with those and nurture those and nudge those things and in a world in which there are so many ways to connect and there's 24 seven, 365 global connections that we have to nurture. And so what does it mean to be developing global communities that are touching on all of these different pieces and parts of ecosystems in today's world? And the link to the Harvard Business Review article is right here underneath. So I encourage you to read it. It is very much customer-focused but what I kind of was trying to frame out as a conversation piece is the recognition that we are really now in continuous relationships with all of our community participants, whether it's if you're still in the old days and loving IRC and trying to connect IRC with Slack so that you're only in one space or you're on Stack Overview or you're in GitHub and in GitLab and doing issues and all kinds of other tracking stuff. There's so many ways from TikTok to Snapchat to who knows what to connect with each other and to reach each other and to share information and really try and figure out how we build better conversations around getting the information out there to people and nurturing those in a healthy way that shares the podium with everybody in the community because we know the internet is not distributed equally. So one of the things that the article says and read the article with a block of salt or a cup of tea or something like that because it is very customer-focused but I think the interesting thing that they mentioned here was from the customers from when the customer recognizes they need or a community member recognizes they need something from the community whether it's technology, documentation or they need to give you feedback and they make a request and then you fulfill it in some way and then they respond to the fulfillment and then it's this cycle of recognize request and respond and repeat. But in order to do all of that, we have to really understand where these connections are, who they are and how they are all connected and how they respond to each other. You'll not see Liz didn't get in yet. Pause in for a minute just to check. To really see how to do that is effectively and appropriately and as quickly and seamlessly as possible and that's really kind of one of the crazy things about this world is that there's an expectation that one as community managers or architects or dev rail people that we know all of these connections, we know all of these people and we have this massive Rolodex in our heads and it's almost, it's impossible to get there. So one of the things that we really, we're trying to tease out today in our conversations and maybe setting the stage here by doing this talk first, we'll kind of set the stage for some of our other conversations as well is really how do we develop effective and inclusive connected strategies? Because there's a lot of things that we touch on and often we as community development people don't use all the same tools as someone would use in business development or in sales or marketing and that like that. We tend to not take on some of the automation and the pieces to do that, but with this new world, we kind of have to make sure that we are responding to these desires to participate or desires for information or desires to contribute to information to the initiatives that we're part of. And one of the aspects that they talk about in the Harvard article was about creating and tailoring curated offerings. And I think that was one of the things that struck me is often and when we're in a technology community, we overwhelm newcomers with a ton of documentation or a demo that's a deep dive or something and we're trying to give them everything we can when we don't really segregate them out by what their needs really are and trying to create more curated offerings that we can use. Then there was a lot of conversations and I think we all do this is trying to coach good behavior and to get people to contribute. There's a lot of work that we can do in terms of coaching and nudging people, especially after they've made that request and you've responded to it, often we see people fall off and go quiet. We don't know, we don't follow up enough. So it was interesting in this article to me that one of their keys was to try and figure out what they call automatic execution and that just reminded me of the automate all things kind of conversation that we have about in technology with CI and CD pipelines and this whole move to protesting and everything that it's the same kind of processes we need to put in place. But in some ways, and as we've all been inundated with marketing and all kinds of strange things that come into our email boxes, it's really important that we still humanize the relationships as well to maintain these contacts between folks to use the technology but not to be used by it and not make people feel like they're being marketed to in these community events. So that's been one of the things that I'd like to tease out today in some of the conversations that we're having. Around using the technology that other people use across our businesses to use in our community development efforts. And I think a lot of us have used some of them but we haven't really done it in a practice measured way to a lot of, to the large extent. So some of the questions that I ask is of myself and others when I'm coaching them on building communities when do you first recognize someone as a participant in your community? And by this I mean is like when they come in is it a stack overflow question that they're asking? Is it their boss told them that they had to go figure out how to become a cloud native? Or is it just a cursory I'm in the Slack channel or I've tweeted something or what is that potential point of entry into your community? And when do you actually as a community person flag them as someone who's a participant in the community? And often we don't do that until it's they've already done an issue or logged an issue in GitHub or made a given feedback or attended a conference or something. But it could be as simple as a tweet or something like that. So when you start to look at who is actually in your community it becomes a really kind of interesting concept of when they actually touch into your ecosystem and the different roles they have from end users to service providers to engineers to maintainers to all the different roles that we have. So I think one of the things that we in order to do this kind of thing we have to really get better about the metadata that we collect and how we classify participants as there's participants on the edge that sometimes we don't recognize. The other thing that we've done and if you're part of OpenShift Commons and this is probably gonna be the most controversial thing I say is de-anonymize a lot of folks. Some of the work that we've been doing it's a lot of the folks that participate in OpenShift and Kubernetes are unaffiliated and a lot of the tools that we have today are making it rather easy to add their affiliations and so we can figure out where they're from and one of the things that we did with the Commons which made a big difference for us is we asked people when they joined Commons to use their corporate or their organizational email addresses. So if you're in the Commons Slack for example you're probably using the affiliation that you want to be affiliated with as your email address so someone could see in Slack what the luggage is or the baggage is or your corporate master is so that it's identifiable and that made it really easy for people to find each other and have these conversations in a more trusted way. I'm not sure everybody agrees with me on that but it is one of the things that's really I believe has helped us in the recognition of the participant to help participants recognize each other. And so this is kind of an interesting way to segue into this conversation is to figure out the very first touches that we have with these companies. Yeah, sorry for interrupting. So there is a really interesting experiment that they are running at the ASF so there are other communities I'm aware they are doing this but this is this friction lock that interns for instance coming from Outreach or where some of our code need to fill just in order to understand how the process of onboarding process, how to start from scratch is felt let's say by a newcomer in that community. So I don't know if this is something that you have for the open seat commons. Yeah, we do have an interesting onboarding approach for commons itself in that when a new we consider ourselves an organizational based community. So we would then if someone joins say from Toyota or Honda or something like that they join once for all of Toyota then anybody can join from Toyota from the CEO to a janitor. It doesn't really matter to us what your role is at the company you can join as long as you use your corporate email address. It's an automatic add into the Slack channel on the mailing list. So there's that self identification. So that's I think is that answering your question? Yeah, so I mean well kind of so the idea is if you are a newcomer for certain technologies might be open seat for instance, question is how can I be held? So are there specific mentors for instance in the community or are there specific people helping in this process? Because we were I just have in mind that we run a specific analysis for the SNAC community a couple of years ago about mentorship and then in that analysis of course we were analyzing around 40 different interns that they had over the years. We cannot compare 40 people against thousands of developers or community members that there are in the community. But what we found that at least that's starting a starting point to dig a bit more into that is that those people that were mentor tend to be longer than they use on average in the community. So that means that perhaps having a mentorship process some coach process, et cetera might be helpful for those newcomers because they will have this sense of community. Even more nowadays where it seems that the face-to-face meetings and so on are kind of moving to virtual meetings this one for instance. So I was wondering if in the open seat there's something similar. There's a couple of things that we do when we do on board folks for this is that we ask them to first add in to come and do an introductory briefing. So in commons one of the first things that we do is schedule a session with them to talk about either what their role is in the community if they're building a product that integrates into OpenShift or if they're an upstream project lead we make them give a talk on that as a way to introduce themselves to the rest of the community. So that's one of the tenants of the commons is to give away the podium and then give them a way to be recognized in the community for what they do and where their contributions are or how they participate in the ecosystem. And then the other thing that we do is on an ongoing basis try and rinse and repeat that. So we'll try and get them to do one introductory one and then we'll get them to do something that's a follow up maybe with someone who's an end user that's implemented their technology or a customer of theirs or some other aspect of their technology used in place in some production way. And then we always offer to do a follow up on that with something that is a new release or a new piece of the puzzle that they can then update their information that they did in the introduction. So we try and allow them to create some content that makes it easy for the rest of the community to get an introduction to what they're doing. It doesn't work all the time because right now I think we have around just under 560 member organizations and one of my goals this year had been to try and get every single one of them to do an update and there's only 365 days in the year so that's not quite gonna happen but we try and get as many of them in as possible and then again at the gatherings that we do like with this one we try and pull people in to make them participate in some small way in the community as well. So that's one of the things we're really adamant about is and it's kind of funny because here I am running on is it not being red hat always talking and the voice of the commons. It's really the commons is about the community and where the community touches on OpenShift, Kubernetes or any of the upstream projects and how they relate it. So that's been quite an interesting set of briefings that anyone can find them on YouTube. They're all in the public and if anybody who's listening here wants to be part of that they're welcome to do so. I'm gonna pause here for a minute to see if any of the other participants who are listening in for the speakers today would like to get in on the AMA here. I know we hadn't, we're putting you a bit on the spot but there's a bunch of you who might have other things to contribute here as well while we get ready to stage for our next talk. So if you're interested in that I can unmute you and you can add into the conversation and are there any questions coming in from the Twitch or Facebook's streams? I'm gonna unmute the folks who are going to be the speakers at the, on the other section here and see if they will join us. So Alois and I'm not sure if Brian and Aaron and the folks who are here. So there is a question from the audience. Oh yeah, Chris already shared this here. All right, let's see, Karen is asking, are you working with the existing communities? We are a 2,100 plus people strong community of cloud native devs. We are, so the diagram, if you saw this back here I'm just gonna go back to this beautiful whole here. This diagram from here, it was part of one of the things that was really interesting to myself and to Daniel about the community issues here. And I'm just gonna unmute some folks here if they would care to dive in here. They're welcome to. Is that we, Brian and the folks that were going to be part of the CNCF one and this kind of gets back to the CNCF. All of these bubbles here in this thing represent, and I think you might be talking about the cloud native one, but the cloud native community is much bigger than 2,100, but what we've been trying really hard to do is to make sure we understand all of the relationships between all of the different communities. So we are working really closely, especially from an open shift perspective with all of the people in the cloud native ecosystem, whether it's the different operator frameworks or Prometheus or any of the open source projects that are part of the open source cloud native ecosystem, as well as if anyone has ever looked at the cloud native landscape diagram. Thank God it has filters on it, but it is a rather busy environment here. And so part of the scene, we didn't, for some reason, Liz Rice hasn't been able to join us today to give her short talk on the CNCF's incubation process. But I think one of the things that's really then interesting to watch is the development of the incubation process for the CNCF and the sandbox processes for the CNCF and how they've been growing and changing those processes and leveraging the SIG, the special interest groups, to do the review and to offload some of the work from the TOC into the SIG so that there are more eyeballs reviewing and doing due diligence on new projects coming into this ecosystem. So we have with us a couple of folks, actually three, Erin and Erin Boyd, Brian Lills, and Eloise Reitenbauer, I think I said that right, who are all SIG leads in different pieces in parts of the CNCF. Wondering if each of you might talk a little bit about the roles that SIG plays in helping this cross-community collaboration with other existing communities and the new ones. And we'll unmute you. Erin and Eloise and Brian, you are now officially unmuted for the AMA. All right, good morning. This is an interesting topic. I actually broached this topic last year at QCon on the main stage towards the end of keynote where I was talking about communities just in general in the ecosystem. And I think one thing that we fail quickly on is we think that the community is just a plane, like a horizontal plane, but we all work for these big massive companies who make so much money and employ us. So there's vertical segments to this too. So really when we think about community, there's the ecosystem, all the things that we need to keep this thing going, so whether it come up from Linux, to Kubernetes, to the cloud made up that's baked on top. And then there's also, but then there's what's your company or your project contributes. And it might just be a smaller sliver or silo. And what we need to do is we need to make sure that companies can be profitable in this realm because if they're not, it goes away. But we also need to make sure that we don't break the community. In a lot of cases, CNCF helps with these protocols that in CNCF and Kubernetes project offers these protocols which we can all get together and work to build these things. But then outside of that, there's groups like Red Hat and Operator Framework. They're free to explore and build them in space and hopefully if they have a good enough solution, people will use it. And it doesn't hurt anyone else. And I just think that whenever we're thinking about communities, we think about it in more than one plane. And I'm sure there's even more planes than two that I raised. Yeah, I think that's, it's a good point. One, I always sort of jokeling refer to it as our corporate masters. That the acknowledgement that there are a lot of companies who have a lot of stake in the game. And but there's the other side of it is they're also funding a lot of the engineering resources that go into work on these projects. And I think that is the amazing thing. They're not all reinventing the wheel, but they are making different wheels. And so it's kind of the processes that the CNCF has put in place. And we'll hear some more from Terry Carras later on in today about how OpenStack did some of that work and how the lessons that we've learned from them as well. But I think it's an interesting, it's never one-dimensional or even two-dimensional. It's like this multi-dimensional chess set trying to keep all of the players in these communities. It can keep track of them. And I think that's one of the things that's really important in that the CNCF gets right a lot of the times, not all of the time. But I think their use of the SIGS has really helped, at least getting some of the early projects and initiatives, again, I say, giving them the podium to share what they're doing and talk about it and influence and maybe find other collaborators to work on similar things. Erin Alois? Sure, so I'm the co-chair for the CNCF, George SIG. And I think it's been great because for a long time the TOC didn't have a representative that was an SME in storage. So I think it really gave a good place for projects that even were in a tinkering stage or a thoughtful stage to come with like-minded people, talk about their ideas, talk about their project. Like you said, get other people involved across the community. And we've seen a lot of very early projects come through that process. And go from sandbox to incubation by doing that. And so I love the idea of the SIGS not only offsetting just the work, but providing kind of a diverse environment of people and users to discuss who understand the technology. And I think that's important because I think part of the CNCF's goals is to have projects that enrich the ecosystem and not just if you pass the criteria, then you're in. I think it's been a very thoughtful process to figure out what adds and even competes with different projects. What can we give the users in this environment that really provides something different or unique? And so I think the SIGS have really been instrumental in doing that and have allowed us to go a lot deeper on some of the projects. Doing the due diligence, I think Brian and Alice can also speak to this is pretty time intensive. And generally it means going and setting it up, trying it out, looking through all the documentation, talking to users. And I think by using the SIGS, we're able to really put in the time that's necessary to look at these projects in depth. So I can appreciate that having originally, I think when we only had six TOC members, way back when, and now we have, like you said, the landscape document is just huge. It was unrealistic to have those people. And though we've grown the TOC, I think it's still such an asset to have a diverse group of co-chairs and people attending these SIG meetings to help drive those decisions. Well, I see that Liz has just popped in and joined us and Liz do not feel bad at all about this. And you're muted. I'm gonna unmute you so you can say that. I'm betting. I'm so sorry, time zones are a nightmare. Yeah, they're evil. Don't really don't worry about it. So what I did instead just to catch you up is I gave my final talk that was gonna be the closer for the day, but we'll have to figure out some other closer for the day. And the whole day is pretty fluid. So I just unmuted after I gave my talk the folks that were gonna be your AMA chat panelists. We could pause here unless Eloise wants to say something quickly and let you give your presentation if you'd like to do that. And we'll just stage that. And then if you've got your presentation handy, can you figure? I think that can give me a minute to make sure I've got the right one. Yeah. And then taking this opportunity to give Liz a bit more time and also share my perspective. I think a lot has already been said about the process in the CNCF. And for me personally, it was very interesting because I was coming more from a standard background which is a totally different level of collaboration. And I learned a lot. I think the help, the six definitely help. I think here because they can dive deeper into topics and can spend more time as Erin mentioned. I just sometimes feel that when projects come in, so there's like very different maturity levels which the CNCF also wants. I think the biggest clarification you have to make is just like being a project in the CNCF is not like this magic moment where suddenly the community is going to change. Like, okay, we want to be in the CNCF because we want to grow our community. That's why we want to be in the CNCF project. And then that's this process where suddenly everything will happen. And this is very often we have to provide people, yeah, but so what are you planning to give to the community? How are you planning to engage? Probably you have a lot of voice that you had before but it's not going to happen by itself. It's like still a lot of work that you have to put into. You have to get good things going. And that's where I just saw like some of these misconceptions where I really like this idea of like building communities and how to bring people together. Sometimes it's really about giving an audience and it's almost like, okay, I want to have my project here. And for some of those projects, the first question was, shouldn't you be talking to this guy? Shouldn't you be talking to this guy? We're like this facilitator and then the projects come back and say, the only thing you really wanted to do is just to get my suggestions done. So yeah, but we're actually giving you a bit more than this. It's like contacting you to people who you should be speaking to or who might also be interested in what you're doing. And as people then try to move in the direction, we can see some of them really starting to appreciate this. I think one doesn't really replace the others. I think the very important role for, especially that is the NCF here and the project is also to Brian's point, like we all work for companies who obviously have a commercial invest. And for some of us collaborating, in some cases it's really hard if there's no independence or parties, because like on an everyday basis, we might be more in the competitive situations. And I interestingly had these situations in my past where I was working with people in a standard, so a collaborative way while at the same time being engaged in the same customer engagement in the competitive setting. I think what these independent organizations really provide is this collaboration for people in the safe space where they can work together. Yeah, I think you brought up a good point at the beginning of this too, is that I think a lot of people think that if they get a sandbox or they get an incubation status that some magic is going to happen around developing a community around it. And they do get a larger podium and some visibility. There's still all of the work of developing the community is still needs to be resourced and still needs to be part of their strategy and their planning and their roadmap. And I think that's a good way to segue into Liz's talk.