 So I want to talk a little bit about about China because China's an interesting case because where is it in the economic freedom index? It must be very low. Yeah, it is low. It's obviously we I don't have a score for for Mao's China Mao's China on a scale of 10 would have been a 1.5 or something In our scale right now, they're like five and a half or six on the 10 point scale Their ranking is like 110th out of 160 It's by no means and and certainly parts of China like Shenzhen are probably as economically free as Say Hong Kong even but as a whole China doesn't score very well It's still a very tightly government controlled economy. The capital markets are completely government controlled banking system They have a authorized private property, but you know, it's just still a What capitalism exists in China is crony capitalism and But crony capitalism is better than socialism But and we should give in China some credit for that. Yeah, I hate the term crony capitalism Yeah, I do too actually So so they don't score very well But you know, how do we expel the wealth creation because that's always a mystery We always say there's a high correlation between economic freedom and wealth creation and China Seems I don't think really does seems to contradict that because we've seen massive amounts of wealth creation but By conventional measures at least there's no economic freedom there. Well, I mean, so for me for one thing I think when it comes to growth and China's grown from let's say a thousand dollars per person to maybe Eight ten thousand dollars per person something like that. That's an incredible growth rate to go That's a you know a tenfold increase in incomes and we know it's just lifted, you know Literally hundreds of millions of people out of abject poverty into something like a dignified life. It's a great thing And that's what you get if you just let off the You know, take your foot off the neck of people just a little bit They will they will rise up and prosper all by themselves. So I think a lot of it is just getting out of mouths Hard socialism to something like what we see today is enough to get you a lot of progress now I don't think China is gonna go from ten thousand or wherever it is today To thirty forty thousand dollars per person like the kind of standards of living that we enjoy in the US or in Europe That's gonna require actual something more like real capitalism but you know just just not Actually trying to keep people down is all it takes and so I think that's the first thing and the other thing is You know the parts of China that are growing the most are the ones that that have liberalized the most and so The growth isn't been uniform. It's been concentrated in those special economic zones and cities where where that has happened and in those places are Approaching, you know The liberalness of of Europe or the US and not in every yeah from an economic perspective when we Well, we know it's not not true across the board. Yeah You know, I think that's important because it is the growth in the St. Jan and Shanghai in place like that Because I've been in rural China and rural China still unbelievably poor and and it's still kind of sad But it's also empty of people because so many people have left and these cities. I remember the first time I was in Dongguan I think in 2004 or five Don't want there was nobody there in 85 86 and now it's got in 2004 It had eight to ten million people already. I mean just and it's an it's in close to St. Jan. It's in that one new area where it's relatively free That's where the economic progress is really happened and one of the reasons I you know people on The right that to my hate but people on the more conservative conventional right Afraid of China right because China is gonna get rich. It's gonna become richer than American It's gonna have this army and it's gonna conquer the world and my view is as long as they tell authoritarian they can't get to the 30 40,000 per capita and that's what rich means and If they free up then who cares if they become rich then it's a win-win for everybody if they actually free up so The correlation between freedom and and prosperity still has not been broken. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, no question about it unfortunately China's political system is still You know repressive and you and I I think you especially found that out first hand We attended the meeting with you and in Beijing Ben and I were there for our book and frankly No offense. We didn't want to spend the entire time with you guys So we just dropped in at the act at the end of it one day For this just delightful little conference that you you helped organize with the Unirole Institute, I think On I'm Rand and Hayek and it was just it was a wonderful thing to be in Beijing with Chinese Scholars and talking about the ideas of Rand and Hayek and well, of course, you know I think first hand what happened the next morning when the government shut the meeting down and we had already left but we actually what actually happened is we had moved so we're supposed to hold the meeting at a university and you know at University where many of the scholars came from and the university called a call that that day saying you cannot do it at the university and they They shut it down at the university and they said the scholars are not allowed to attend even if you do it elsewhere So we actually moved the event to a hotel and some of the scholars I mean these are I mean one of the things that's really sad about China is These scholars that you've met I've met the courageous people. I mean these I mean we have it easy, right? We combat students and other professors in our universities These people have secret service people following them around and watching them and they could go to jail at any moment Some of them have sat in jail on several occasions and are being interrogated by the By the police there so it's it's really a horrible situation They live under but many of them came to the event in spite that at the same time as we ran the event at the Hotel the offices of Unarall where there was Attacked and a bunch of thugs that were hired by governments Shut them down and since then I don't know if you saw in the New York Times a few weeks ago There was a story that they've shut down the institute. Yeah. Yeah, yeah completely out of business and You know, it's so sad because these people I many of them years ago two years ago They were already a little pessimistic, but I'd say five six years ago They were so optimistic about the direction China was going to head in politically not just economically And it's it's tragic to see to see really what happened there and what's going on there So, yeah, you know, I don't think China's gonna get much richer Unless it opens up frees up and and changes course and I unfortunately I don't see that happening anytime Yeah, I mean sometimes scholars call this the middle income trap. I mean you can get to middle income reason just you know Basically just let some markets work. You'll get the middle income just you know on autopilot, but you want to get to actual You know the innovation economies that we we live in that that requires actual economic freedom So, I mean, I'm willing to applaud countries You know getting the middle income. That's that's good for those people, but absolutely It's not gonna happen and even we don't have real economic freedom. So imagine that we Kind of innovation a technology we would have we had real Economic what we need today, but I called a new intellectual would be any man or woman who is willing to think Meaning any man or woman who knows that men's life must be guided by reason by the intellect Not by feelings wishes women's are mystic revelations Any man or woman who values his life and who does not get want to give in to today's cult of the spare cynicism and impotence and does not intend to give up the world to the dark ages and to the role of the collectivist Using the super chat and I noticed yesterday when I appealed for support for the show many of you step forward and actually Supported the show for the first time. So I'll do it again. Maybe we'll get some more today If you like what you're hearing if you appreciate what I'm doing then I appreciate your support Those of you who don't yet support the show, please take this opportunity go to your own book show calm slash support or go to subscribe star calm your own book show and And and make a kind of a monthly contribution to keep this to keep this going. I'm not sure when the next