 Hello everyone and welcome to the Egyptian Update Program. My name is Ash Siddiq and I'm here with Nancy Zaid as well as with Sahir. And our goal tonight is to really share with you an update on the situation in Egypt. Take a look also at some of the factors affecting the situation, the political situation in Egypt today. And then also think about how that affects the American-Egyptian relationship and see where the discussion will take us. But we really hope that at the very end that you'll get a good sense of the current situation in Egypt and how that affects the relationship with the US as well. So let me start with Sahir here. Sahir, if you don't mind sharing with us, what you believe is the current situation in Egypt and if you can link that back to what started back in January 2011? If we go back to January 11, that is a normal reaction for a good number of population after having the same ruler for a long time, like 30 years or so, any ruler will be empowered for a long time to convert to be dictatorial. And it's not thinking about the country, it's start thinking about himself and his family and he don't care about these things. So this in September and January 21, 2011, it was some kind of riots just complaining about the cost of living getting high, source of food getting less and these people like to live a decent life. That's the main intent for all these riots. But after a while it's converted to some political or religion directions and ended by some kind of election, I don't know how to describe it, but it was election. And he came up with Morsi in power. If it is fair and clean or not, I don't know. So he became in power. When he became of power, he converted everything to be more of a religion attitude supporting only his groups and I had to say his family only and care about personnel and the group things. And he showed in many occasions non-loyalty to Egypt. So it is not, I think, the dream of everybody there. So after one year from his election start to be nothing got improved, everything went worse. So it needs another correction for what happened. So actually what happened in June 30, it was correction for the path of the same revolution. But since Egyptian constitution or government or laws don't have recall system so the public decided to make their own recall in their own way, as I call it, recall in the Egyptian way. So if you go to the Russian satellite and you count the heads in the streets, it can be 33 millions. If you go to the American satellite, it's 31.5 million persons on the streets making riots, this agreeing about what's happening with the government. And they want civilian government out of religion and they want freedom. They want all those things that they already lost during the previous period. So he never showed, as I can see, any cooperation or feeling about the real demand or the need of these people. So since the army is part of the people and the army from the people to serve the people. So it was a motion from the army to use the muscle, which is the army is the muscle of the public to correct the path. So it is not a coup and I hate to say it is a revolution. I like to say it is recall. They call him back and let us go again to make everything in a constitutional right way as the world knows it. Not something part of anarchy and part of special interest and things like this. Well, let's thank you very much for sharing that. Nancy, maybe you can also sort of share your own view, very much like what Sarah has done now. Do you see eye to eye? Do you see it differently? What are your thoughts? Again, if you help the audience understand what really happened and why back in 2011 and where are we today? I think Mr. Sahara gave them broad brush strokes of what happened. January 25th, 2011 was a revolution and the intent of the revolution was not to bring down the country. It was really to register a popular complaint and the demands. And the demands were decent living, social justice and freedom. So these were the original demands. Everybody took to the streets and everybody really, at a certain point people never thought that it would happen at all. And they were surprised that it did and they got encouraged and they went down, my family included by the way, and they were on the streets there protesting and there was no such thing as religious affiliations or political affiliations or nothing, it was literally just the people registering what they needed. And when the army stepped in, and what by the way is also described as a coup, just so we know, back then in January 25th, 2011, when the army stepped in and ex-president Mubarak stepped down, everybody got hopeful, everybody was happy, everybody rejoiced and that's when the polarization and the politicization of that revolution started taking place. You started hearing the secular and then you started hearing their religious voice. There were no religious demands, as a matter of fact under the old constitution it really never put an end or it never hindered the proliferation of religious freedom and religious thought. So from that point on, now the political Islamists have been in the street, you know, have worked at a street level for a long time and they have always been the typical underdog. They've always represented a framework for effective opposition as opposed to just ineffective civilian opposition that was then. And so people, you know, believed in it and I think Mr. Sal would agree that Egyptian people generally, whether Christians or Muslims are religious by nature, so they look at religious clerics and religious figures as people who are far from being corrupt, people that will actually take the country forward, a country that has been suffering from amazing levels of corruption. So, rightfully so, there was an election. It was largely, you know, I mean, it was, it's a fair election. It was a fair election and the Muslim Brotherhood took or, you know, won. And then there was like the presidential elections. There were multiple, I think it was 13 candidates or presidential candidates. And I just want to stop here and explain or at least register the fact that we see at that point the inexperience of an entire population with the political process, their unawareness of political process. They don't know what they're supposed to do, but they want to do it the right way. So they went and they actually cast their votes. And, you know, you see that the secular or the civilian, because secular is another word that we might want to talk about. We see that they are not as organized. They are not as effective. But when you talk to the people in the street, they think that the religious forces will actually involve the secular thought. Yes. Okay. But anyway, be that as it may, we know what happened. Morsi won as well as the Muslim Brotherhood and to everybody's surprise, the Salafi movement, which is an ultra conservative Islamic movement, political movement. Yes. And people looked at or waited for the change and the disappointment started. You know, it's not like the Egyptian people knew that everything that was ruined throughout 30 years can be fixed overnight or in a year or two. But they were looking for the proper foundation, the proper framework, comprehensive framework for a healthy political system. And that generally starts with the constitution. So people waited for that. And it was a huge shock to everybody on November 21st of 2012 when Morsi declared himself as above the constitution as well as, you know, and that his decisions or laws cannot even be taken to court. And that's when the strife really heightened. And that's when people realized that that's, you know, that's not what was advertised. That's false advertising, if you will. Exactly. And then, you know, the secular or the civilian, the non-political, let's say the non-religious political forces tried very often and very hard to get included in the process. But unfortunately, the Islamic or political forces were not as inclusive as one would have hoped. And that led to more and more heightening of dismay. And given the fact that the constitution that unfortunately did not recognize the churches of Egypt and the civilian forces that actually, you know, decided to leave the table because the constitution was just not for all of Egypt. You know, it just, it became a non-inclusive system and environment. Exactly. And that constitution defined no instrument for the people to recall a president except in the presence of a parliament and there was no parliament at that time. Or if the actual contested president would decide to go through an early election, which he refused, Mr. Morsi refused as well. So at that point, and given that, in Egypt there is no second amendment, right? So they don't have an instrument to recall the government or the president and they don't have the right to bear arms. And Egyptian culture itself, they don't believe in bearing of arms. They turned to their arms, which is the armed forces, which behaved exactly the way that it did with Mubarak. And that was the corrective path for the January 25th revolution. And I think that's maybe a bit more detailed. I thank you for that introduction and I think we'll continue to stay on the political environment in Egypt discussion. And I'll look at Seher to tell us, in your own view, Seher, if you were to draw a new political system in Egypt, given the fact that you represent the Coptic side of Egypt and as an Egyptian and also as an American looking at the situation today, how would you draw a new political environment in Egypt? What should that environment look like in your mind? Before we talk about human rights, I'd like to ask a question. In the Egyptian idea, how does it say religion? Christian, Muslim. What's the function of this line other than discriminatory function? Absolutely. For both sides, I'm not talking about one side. Exactly, yeah. Okay, so this line is not needed. And in the constitution, yes, the religion can be guide the constitution. I have no problem with this. But the country itself would never have a religion. The country always open for many religions. As Salah Jaheen, which is an old journalist mentioned in the 60s and 70s, right in my idea, Egyptian, and I will pray whatever I want. And this is, it was actually a nice thing to hear it, that all is equal. For the last, in the 60s and the 70s, it was very hard to distinguish between Christian and Muslim. Very hard, because both of them was same fabric, blended together. Under last couple of years, things start to be distinguished. And they try to treat some people as second degree citizens, which is not acceptable in any way, not acceptable even for Muslims themselves. Even between Muslims themselves, it was class A and the class B and the class C. Yes. Equalities disappeared. Correct. So that's part hard. So the constitution should implement some equality for all these people. And both of us has to be equal under the law, if it is Muslim or Christian. Exactly. For the same crime, same punishment. It's not somebody above or somebody below. So things like this, to make this kind of things as structured to be country, it is very hard that may take a long time. Because we have good number of younger people, they got the wrong education. It is very hard to wash it, but it may take some time to wash it. Something you cannot do. It can be done. But what's the government will do? I think the government is now going the right way. But to solve or to take your right by crime, I completely disagree with the theorist. And some try to force their way, it is not Islamic way, but their way by weapons, by guns. It's not acceptable. Not acceptable for all parties, except themselves. Absolutely. So this thing is going to different path. So constitution, I hope to be at the end, clean one. Well done. The laws should be more equal. And you mentioned the word Coptic. Yes. Okay. Somehow people understand Coptic means Christian. But actually Coptic is coming from Gupti, Gupti, Egypti. So both Egyptians. The Archaeoptics. Okay. So there is Coptic Christian and there is Coptic Muslim. Yes. Other than these two Coptics, they are foreigners. Yes. Coming from another country. Which welcome. No problem. They can live with us. But the main fabric is these two Coptic groups. Yes. So thank you for sharing that. Nancy, we're going to a break in a couple of minutes. So maybe before we go away, again, give me your ideal view on what the political environment in Egypt should look like going forward. And after the break, we'll come back and take a look at your view as to how it exists today. Okay. Well, there is a political system in Egypt. And it actually has a legislative branch and a presidential or executive branch and a judiciary as well. So the system is there. It's just the system is ineffective because the instruments of the system are fundamentally lacking. And therefore the stage and the phase that the country is in right now is the building of the fundamentals and the building of these frameworks in order for the political system. The preexisting political system to actually become effective. That makes a lot of sense. So what I'd like to do is, you know, once we come back from the break, we want to delve a little bit deeper into these elements, especially whether or not we see things really improving. So with that, we'll take a short break and we'll be right back. Welcome back to the Egyptian update. I'm here with Nancy Zaid and also with Sahar Yassa. And right before the break, we were basically discussing the political frameworks that exist today in Egypt. And I want to go back to Nancy and really have her describe to us what are the political powers that exist today in Egypt and what could be the systemic issue with those powers at this moment with a view to the future. It's complex. But largely you would say that there is the political or the Islamic political force and that is divided into the Muslim Brotherhood and into the Salafis. Then you have your civilian forces. And this is basically people that instigate or started the January 25th revolution and continued on with the June 30th of 2013, the corrective revolutionary wave. And then you can say that the Islamic political forces are kind of like the conservative ones, but maybe Republicans, if you will, if we have to compare to the environment. Exactly. And you have the Democrats there and those are the liberal forces and they are a group of socialists and capitalists and liberals and secular and all that. And those would comprise the educated and the forward thinking forces, political forces. And then you have the unaware. And unaware, I would like to compare them to the undecided here. But then the undecided no here in the U.S. They're just choosing not to take action. Exactly. And they kind of wait till the very 11th hour before they actually act. But in Egypt because there has been no political life, no viable political life, that the majority of the Egyptian people are unaware slash undecided. They don't take part. So those are basically the political forces that comprise the part of the ecosystem, the political ecosystem in Egypt. Yes. Well, I know that during Mubarak's time, pretty much the existence of the nationalist party that the whole Mubarak group really represented more or less by design. They did not give any of the other civilian parties the chance to flourish and have almost sort of a balancing of powers. The opposition in the parliament or any of the cabinet positions, which creates the situation that you are in here, that you are in today with the fact that with the revolution, all these Islamist parties and groups have basically sort of in full force established the umbrella of the religion to basically tell those who are uninformed or perhaps informant mainly from religious institutions to believe that it's by supporting these religious parties that that is the right way to go. And that's really what brought the M.B. into power. They basically came on a ticket based on religious sort of appearances. And then, of course, the situation when the Egyptian people were put through, when the presidential elections came down to a Mubarak era figure and Morsi, the revolutionaries voted for Morsi to put him into power. And Anbino was to them that once he's in power, he's really going to put all their aspirations aside. Now, a lot of the demonstrations that are happening today, a lot of people in the demonstrations are basically saying, we are here to bring back the revolution. And once again, they're talking in the language of the Egyptian people. What's your reaction to that picture? And do you see any activity on the Egyptian scene to really create a balance of powers? Because now we have the army, and of course, most probably a lot of the Mubarak era forces at play today. More or less really recreating the situation that existed prior to January 25th, 2011. So that's the question I have for you. I wonder how you see things evolving from there. Revolutions never take a straight path, you know, to fulfillment or to success. So they always go in ups and downs. And right now there's a serious attempt on part of the army or the military and some civilian forces to actually implement the correction. I don't know that it is effective just yet. Because again, I mean, it takes a lot of people, it takes a society to actually make that happen. At least that is the intent of the majority. Right. It takes a society to actually make it happen. But then let me take you back what we just said a little while earlier, which is that throughout 30 years there was no political life to speak of at all. As a matter of fact, basically what you can say that the 1971 constitution gave immense power to the executive branch. And you know, it's like absolute power corrupts absolutely. And that's what we saw. So yes, people want to create a political center and take part in it. They just don't know how. So now the look is at the educated and the revolutionary forces and so on and so forth. But even so, they are not that ready to move forward. So the progress is there. Maybe it's not as fast as the entire nation wants it to be. But that's I think the reality. It's very hard, yes. It's a learning process that everyone will have to go through. But you're right. There are significant attempts or there are significant attempts to recreate the previous regime. And people, you know, sociology tells us that people fear change. Correct. So sometimes even people that want the country to move forward kind of lean back to the old times because it's what they know. Exactly. They don't know what freedom will bring. Exactly. Let me go to Sahar. There's a lot of maybe mistrust or distrust among many Egyptians. Some of those supporting the Morsi Party and that aspect of the political scene. And then some who started the revolution towards the army and the role the army plays today in politics and even previously. When you look to the future, do you yourself trust the army? Do you see that the army eventually will do the right thing for the Egyptian people? Apart from the constitution, the army responsible to protect the country and the constitution. And I think they did that on 2011, January 2011, and they did it again in June 13, 2013. So the army doing this part, but to put army in charge, I disagree about it. But this is a power to be used when it is needed. It is not to be in charge. In charge people, I prefer some democratic system with presidency limited term, four years, eight years, whatever it is, they agree about it. And because it stays longer, the worst it comes. And having any politician or executive in a long time and place always creates, gets corrupted after a while. So always we need new blood to go to the surface. So it will be a continue healthy country. Then the main problems inside Egypt is the education of the poor layers. If you can solve this problem, that will be a major achievement. What's your view? Do you trust the army? I do trust the military. This is a country, I mean it's really, really interesting. This is a country where the people are in love with their army. Every family in Egypt has one or two members at least per generation. Every family is part of it. So they don't think of the army as something separate. It's trustworthy. It's not having one or two members of the family in the army, but they have one or two members martyred. I do trust the army and I also want to say they have no other choice but to actually put the country back on track. And I think this is what they realize. So it's in their best interest. It's in the army, it's in the military's best interest for civilians to take charge of the country. Because otherwise it's not going to scale and they realize that. And you can see it in the difference in approaches and styles and everything. In the leadership of the current leadership of the military versus the previous one under Mujir Tantawi. So I believe that they sincerely want to put the country on track. Just exactly which track, that's the thing. Is it the old track but move forward? Or is it the new track? That's the thing that is currently being clarified, but I do believe that they are thinking of a new track. Let us compare between old track and the new track. I like this. Actually, Egypt's track is long and very historic. And we have good pumps and bad people and good people and we are up and down as any country in the whole world. Now the past track got corrupted, started good, but got corrupted. So let us learn from our own mistakes and let us guide these people to avoid this corruption. And we have enough educated people in Egypt that can lead in this direction. Egyptian is intelligent. I give them a lot of trust. And they can lead it to a good place. I want to take you a bit deeper into the discussion. Today in the news one of the authorities in Egypt announced that about 726 people died when the army and the Ministry of the Interior cleared the sit-ins in Cairo. That were basically the remnants of what happened after the June 30th event. Do you think the military and the security forces handled the situation correctly? Could there have been any other option for them to handle the situation? Is it worth the cost, essentially, in your viewpoint? It was unfortunate. And it was expected. I can't ever condone something that results in bloodshed, but I have to clarify that throughout 45 days after the ousting of ex-President Horsy that the civilian forces or the civilian political forces, as well as the military, tried to be inclusive. And I think it was... I'm not think, actually, I know that the Islamists or the political Islamists were the ones that actually refused this inclusion. And they did the sit-ins and the country tolerated the sit-ins for 45 days to levels that I don't think are legal in any country, you know, where public and private property were destroyed. People like in the neighborhoods where the sit-ins took place could not have reasonable sleep, you know, and so on. So it was very... it was an inconvenience to everyone. And given that they refused to become party, you know, the political process and moving forward and become partners with... offered the partnership, but they, you know, denied or refused it. Before the sit-ins, ample warnings have been issued by religious clerics as well as by the military and the Ministry of Interior. And on the day of breaking down the or ending the sit-ins, a path was open, you know, like a safety path was open for... For people to leave. To leave safely and to, you know, and peacefully with actual transportation to where they came from, from the different states or governors is what we call Egypt. And some refused, you know, the majority decided to leave, but some refused and those are the casualties. And unfortunately, most of them are just, you know, they are a mix of people that really believe in the cause. Yes. And others who are very unfortunate, very poor. Actually, they received free food, free, you know... They came for benefits. Yeah, you know, some... there was benefit for... Yes. There were benefits for that. Yes. So it's unfortunate. It is, it is, it is. And hopefully, violence, sub-science and Egyptians don't need to lose other lives. Let me go to Sarah. Just right after those sit-ins were cleared, a number of churches were set on fire in different parts of Egypt. I think the number about 85 churches or something like that... 73. 73. Something like that. Yeah. What was your read on into that? It is very hard and very painful to see your church or your mosque or your temple got burning. Even very hard to see your jacket got burned. Yes. For what? For somebody wants to prove his point of view for something. This people is not part of it. Church is not part of it. So because most churches or other churches in general, they never carry weapons from any kind. Yes. They count on the government for defense. To defend them. To defend them. Yeah. So that is the weak or the soft side. Yeah. So you're using the guns you have on the weak side to prove what, to pressure the government? Mm-hmm. This does not make sense for me. Plus, some of these churches is very historic. Yes. It is built in the third century. Yes. This building cannot be replaced. It has no price. It's priceless. Do you think the Ministry of the Interior was perhaps not well planned given the fact that the citizens, everybody knew they were going to clear them that there could be retaliatory actions by these groups that perhaps. For sure, Ministry of the Interior, you know about it. Yes. But for the defense of the Ministry of the Interior, they got attack police centers. Mm-hmm. So the Ministry of the Interior itself was a victim too. Right. Right. So these people got out of control. That in normal circumstances attacking the police is not something that you see happening every day. Still happening every day. Yeah. And as Pope Tuadros said, Pope Alexandria said, burning 73 churches or 80 churches is price for the democracy. And I'm happy to pay it. It's good that you ended with that. And when you think about the advice that you want to give whether to the current administration, if we really look at the presidential powers that exist, you have a cabinet in place. You also have the military and the police forces. And you know that there are demonstrations happening almost every day or every week. What should be the approach that these forces should take forward with these demonstrations? I mean, how do you think they are handling them? They can do better, definitely. Yeah. I think they can start with having a balanced media to begin with so that these people can have a voice in the media instead of always taking to the street. And not just taking to the street where they just demonstrate, you know, and that would be it. They actually do other things like try to do sit-ins in the subway or on highways or things like that. So I think that the current administration in Egypt can do a better job in terms of by using a more balanced media by being more open and transparent with respect to incidents of violence or allegations of abuse and so on. A lot of cultural restructuring within the institutions of the country have to take place and it has to start in the Ministry of Interior as well as some branches of the army where human rights and dignity become the norm. And they start in respect for the individual. So they can do better. And I hope that they do. I hope so too. So with that, what we're going to do is we're going to take another break and when we come back we'll basically ask our guests a number of questions specifically focused on the economic situation in Egypt and how they see that aspect also and where the improvements need to be made. So we will be right back. Welcome back to the Egyptian update. As I mentioned right before the break, we will actually be taking a look at the economic conditions in Egypt today. And then from that discussion we'll start taking a look at the American-Egyptian relationship and see what our guests have to say about how this relationship is today and where it should be going forward. So with that, let me come back here to Nancy. Definitely in my opinion at least the economic situation whether it's during Mubarak's time or Morsi's time or today is not that different if we really think about the average citizen in Egypt. A lot of Egyptians actually will argue that it has gotten drastically worse. What is your view on the economic situation today? What is causing the issues and the problems in Egypt today? I hear that Egypt has borrowed a lot more money than it has typically done historically in Morsi's time and also today. So what do you see happening economically in Egypt today? It's a tough situation for any, it's a tough situation and a tall order for any government really. So the economic situation in Egypt is while there's a huge potential seriously for investments and for return on investment but some of the basics are missing. What we're seeing really right now is that all the small bubbles that were created previously in the Mubarak era have burst. So now people see the reality. You find people that are living at amazing levels of riches, things that we probably would not be able to afford here in this country working as hard as we do. And you will find people living at standards that no human being should be left to endure or to live under. So what we're looking at or what Egypt is experiencing right now is the burst of all bubbles and everybody now sees everything. So it's the reality of things because in 30 years, 30 years of Mubarak's rule countries such as India and China and South Korea have started and printed and grown huge economies with impressive GDPs or growth in GDPs and so on. And those same 30 years nothing big happened in Egypt. So the economy right now is basically just the reality. The reality of things. And what adds to the misery or insult to injury is that one of the biggest sources of income to Egypt is through tourism. And tourism depends on the security in the street and the safety and the infrastructure. All of these things are currently are not at optimal levels. So the easy money that comes from tourism or a currency that comes from tourism is not even there which is exacerbating the pains that Egypt is going through. So when you look at the Egyptian society a decent percentage is educated. They are quite intelligent but there is a gap between what the market demands and what the skill set provided through the system of education provides. So there is a huge gap. That gap is not something that started after the revolution or started during or continued. It has always existed. It's just now people are seeing it and seeing the disparity and all that. So the current economic condition is not good. The potential for growth and for a great return on investment is significant but the problems of security and stability will be key for any economic development. Seher you talk to people over there, family members and friends. What are you hearing? Security is number one factor as she mentioned. It is very important for investors, for tourists, for any industry to be established. Security, I'm not talking about eight to five, it has to be around the clock. Security that I can drive or go from A to B safe. Security that I can leave my daughter go night time without somebody guarding her. So security in different level is very, very important and I'm happy that she talked about it this way. Resources in Egypt, Egypt is not really in bad shape. No. They have a lot of resources, reasonable resources. Education which is the uneducated people keep increasing. The number of college graduation in Egypt, if you know this, the highest college percentage in the whole world is in Egypt. College graduates. So the middle class is disappeared. So we have college graduate and we have noneducated group and very thin layer in the middle which is the technician layer which could be the opposite, could be the majority there to do the job. To pull more tourists to Egypt, you need security, you need safety and somehow I heard from one of them who was so happy, we killed the tourists in Egypt. Why are you happy? Yes. Who will eat out of it? Of course, yeah. There is a lot of people, a lot of working layers, they benefit out of it. But he was happy that he killed this tourist in Egypt. Other than that, make it demand of the market. The demand is too much and the investors are so smart to realize this and they can build it. But they need some time, they need technical support, they need some education which can be imported from or help it by United States or by European countries. So we can create good, but is this country willing to help or not? Yeah. And actually that's a very good segue for us because I want to shift our discussion over to how you see the US government interacting with the Egyptian situation. Of course, the US history with Egypt goes back many decades ago. Today, Senator John McCain today actually said that the US has no strategy in Egypt and that he was very dismayed with Secretary John Kerry's performance in this particular area. Do you agree with John McCain? What's your read on how the US government has handled the Egyptian situation since the end of the war regime until today? How do you see that situation? I feel so sorry for the US administration. I really do. Unfortunately, the US is in the unfortunate situation where it is damned if it did anything and if it didn't do anything. And that's because the core issues are always ignored by any foreign policy that any US administration forges. So I disagree with Senator McCain with respect to his assessment. The US foreign policy in Egypt is not... I think it's starting to take the right direction which is making peace with and acknowledging the power of the Egyptian people as opposed to the power of the regime. I think that the US administration was tricked by the earlier temporary short-lived regime thinking that it was a true reflection of the whole society. You're referring to the MB administration for the end of the war season. Exactly. I think they placed a bet that using democratic instruments such as election, it will really be reflective. But again, we cannot limit democracy to just an election box. It cannot be that. Democracy is more than that. Democracy has frameworks. There's a fair constitution that prohibits discrimination based on anything, gender, race, religion, whatever. So it takes more, really, too. But be that as it may, the US... Because it's what we do here. It's what we do here. These are the elected officials and therefore they must be reflecting the people's will. And it went along in that area not realizing or realizing but not knowing what to do that there were some significant issues. There were some significant issues. And I think President Obama reflected that in his speech in the United Nations. Correct. He touched on it and he touched on it correctly. Yes. His stance with respect to the Syrian issue, even though this is Syrian, this is Egypt, and they're not related... No, no, no, they are very, very related because traditionally Syria is the eastern border of Egypt, even though not geographically but strategically and militarily, the safety of Egypt starts in Syria. And this is why... This has been since the Pharaohs, by the way. Yes. So I think that they are starting to go in the right direction but they're not going about it clearly enough or addressing the core issue that breeds this animosity towards any US administration. Absolutely. And if we must address it, and if we must say what that is, that's the Arab-Israeli conflict. Correct. If we as Americans are going to be the mediator and the judge and jury, then our foreign policy has to be forged such that it respects international laws, decisions by the United Nations, treaties, international treaties, and act accordingly, effectively reaching an agreement that probably will not be optimal to everyone. And that's the point where you know it's probably fair. Correct. And it is at that point, if any US administration manages to do this, then it will have forged a real relationship at a strict level as opposed to a regime level. Yes. And if this happens, then you have pretty much 300 million out of the 350 million in the Middle East starting to see the US as a real friend as opposed to an imperial power. Yes. Because that region, you know, the history is full of imperialism, right, and imperialistic experiences to the point where people are borderline xenophobic. They are scared of anyone who is foreign. Yeah. So building trust starts at A, you know, three things. Yes. Three, if I may. Sure, sure. Three things. One is recognizing the core issue, which is the Arab-Israeli conflict, and which we just described. Yes. Second thing is realizing, you know, like acknowledging the power of the people, right, and the foreign policy that actually is fair and quite balanced or, you know, and realizing that Egypt is too big to fail as well. Because if we manage to help Egypt do this transition and do it correctly and fairly, you know, then we have actually helped the entire Middle East and the entire Arab world to see it. To see it as an example. Exactly. You know, then it's a real spring as opposed to whatever is going on right now. Yeah. So, Sahar, when you hear Nancy look at it from the standpoint of looking at what the Egyptian people want, when you think about the American foreign policy as an American Egyptian, what would you like the U.S. to try to support in Egypt? I mean, what is the best outcome? An Islamist government with a democratic support, a civil state, what do you think is the best outcome from the U.S. interest view? First, the source of information to the United States was not clear at all in the beginning. They got misled information. So, they push them in the wrong direction. Where do you think the source of information went? You're mainly talking about the embassy in Cairo? No, not embassy in Cairo. It is the source of information through the media. Okay. It was completely wrong. I was a little bit aggressive and I sent to one of the senators e-mail asking or explaining that what happened is not a coup. And the answer was really weird answer. He said, I worry about how Egyptian treat Morsi. Who cares about Morsi? Interesting. That's his answer. He cares about Morsi much more than anything else. Yes. So, that means his train of thoughts is in the wrong direction. Yes. Well, that actually brings a good point because there's a lot to be said about PR campaigns, whether these PR campaigns are funded by the Muslim Brotherhood or funded by the existing Egyptian administration today. Where do you think the U.S. should really get its information or from its own vantage point, what kind of Egypt should the U.S. aspire to see? Well, I wanted to take a couple of steps back because I hope to God that the media is not the source of the U.S. I think that the analysis of the data that, you know, I'm sure that the, you know, the administration has more than ample sources of data. Of course. Not quite information data. Exactly. It's analyzing that data that creates information. Yes. So, I am curious about the analysis that get applied to that data because that what supports the decisions that get made. Yes. So, I think that perhaps the analyses are following old algorithms, I would say. You know, if I... Yes. Sorry. Can escape technology here, but... I don't like to put analysis only because I know it's one of the international stations, no name. Yes. Routes and things completely reverse at 180 degrees. So, I pick up the phone and I called their headquarters. Oh, wow. Okay. But the answer was our representative in Egypt told us this information. I told them you're representative in Egypt to give you wrong information. Okay. Okay. So, it's what I hear it from Egyptian radio from my relative in Egypt. Yes. It's completely opposite for what you're publishing. Yes. In this case, I have to lose trust in your station. Sure. Sure. You both make very good points and I personally from an American Egyptian strategic alliance standpoint, what I think is best for the U.S. is to really create... is to really support a several states in Egypt because, again, we believe that Islamist or religious groupings in Cairo will definitely mess up the scene, especially in an area where... Absolutely. ...religious affiliations could really... Make a big problem. Politics with the religion is very bad. Exactly. Doesn't give you a good result. Exactly. I mean, we see it in Europe and in the Western world, they only moved out of the dark ages. When they separated the powers of church and state. Yes, exactly. So church not being just Christian, it's just religion and state. And running the state. Here, even the most called church. Yes. Exactly. Well, I really want to... Just because we're running out of time, I really want to express my gratitude for your time, Nancy, for joining us and also Sahar. I want to thank you very much and hopefully we come here again and share more of an update on what's happening in Egypt. I know it's a journey and it's going to take time. So I want to thank you for watching us and listening to this discussion and hope to see you soon. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Thank you.