 Hi everybody, welcome to CUBE Conversations. This is Dave Vellante with Stu Miniman. We're at the Wikibon headquarters and we got a great guest, Jamie Shepherd, who's with Luminate, Senior Vice President of Strategy and Healthcare. Jamie, it's always a pleasure to have you on theCUBE. Thanks for coming by. Thanks, Dave. Nice to have you. So let's get into it. I always love talking to you because your organization's always been on the front of things. I remember when VCE announced, you know, when they came out of the box, you showed me your converged infrastructure, which was out of the box, ready to go. You'd be on top of Flash. And so let's start with what you're seeing in the industry. Oh boy. I mean, so many disruptions going on. It's crazy. You got Amazon. You saw the IPO the other day of Alibaba. I mean, all kinds of disruptions going on in the business. Everybody's freaking out, trying to figure out what the next business model is. You're in healthcare, electronic medical records, meaningful use, tons of changes going on there. So give us the big picture. What's happened in the customer base? It's out of control right now. You know, we're doing a lot of education. I found myself kind of going back to the future, right? We were talking about it earlier. You know, haven't been in IT for about 26 years now. You know, I'm telling people, calm down. You know, we've seen this before. What goes around comes around. And you know, there was an AS 400 out there that had compute, storage, everything in, and then people left it in the corner. You know, we saw the decentralized IT model happen, right? IT come out and client server technology and new relational databases, CyBase, and you know, and then PowerBuilder, all these front ends that were doing crazy things. And we've seen all this before. You know, we've actually seen this. And now we're back to massive centralization, but what we're seeing is a decentralized business leader model. So now the business units, the application owners are making the decisions on where they want to go in IT. Same issue, 26 years. I was with a customer recently, and they were having a discussion in front of me, healthcare customer, and I didn't, they said, he's looking for more space in DI. He's looking for, like, are you talking about a DBA? Yeah, we just hired a new DBA. I said, guys, this is like Groundhog's day for me, okay? 26 years, I've heard the same conversation, and technology has evolved so much, but we're still arguing internally about giving a DBA 100 giga data when he or she only needs 20 giga data. When is that going to stop? When are you going to get out of the business of trying to create your own SLAs because the application owners are defining those today and they're going to go away. And you mentioned Amazon, that's the first place they go. Well, and the whole DevOps movement is changing. So if you're an infrastructure person, what do you do? What do you tell these guys? The role of the CIO, this is not new information, it's been evolving for years. It's been in and out. The old CIOs were the ex-MIS directors, director of data processing or whatever, they grew up that way. They got to be innovative. They have to understand the end user. You got to walk the halls, you got to know what, if you're in retail, what a point of sale system is all about. What happens there? What happens to that point of sale? What happens during the process? What's it like in healthcare when a patient is transported? What communication is going on there? Walk a hospital for eight hours and you'll find out. What's it like in financial services? That's always been the same. No, it's different now. We've got a lot of companies that are global right now and they're trading on a global basis. We're on this world economy. So CIOs have to do a much greater job of understanding their user, not so much their application, it's their user. And that's what they're transforming themselves into. You talked about the AS100 before, I'm laughing because I remember it even before it was the AS100. That's how long I've been around. But so Stu, you have been doing a lot of research on convergence and hyperconvergence. Take it from here. What are you seeing and what do you want to know from Jamie? Yeah, sure Jamie. So you've been involved in this converge movement for a while and we talked about Oracle, really created the RedStack and then there's lots of alternatives out there. So of course VCE and the rest of the Cisco partners which Cisco's a good partner of yours. So you've got the Vblocks and the FlexPods and the Vspecs and SimpliVity's doing stuff with them now. I mean Cisco's partnering with a ton of people to take their UCS platform and push it out there. At VMworld this year, it seemed like the hyperconvergence or what we at Wikibon called server sand was a big discussion point. So I want to see what are you seeing out there? How ready are customers to really, I mean drastically change the way they do things. I mean what's majorly different about a server sand or hyperconvergence is it's no longer a storage array. We break down that silo, we pull it all in. Infrastructure should just become a platform that can deliver on the services. How far are we along really realizing that? What are you seeing? There are three camps going on right now Stu. 100% and what I'm seeing is old school, okay? I'm seeing that mid level that came a little bit from old school but they understand what's ahead of them and then I'm seeing people that are just giving up, okay? Literally, they're giving up and they're taking the easy way out and they're going to some sort of a cloud type of offering, whether it's using a cloud gateway, Pinsor or Nassuni or something like that to get out there, that's what they're trying to do and then they're doing it without understanding their business model. A lot of it's being driven by MBOs. I got to get to a cloud, I got to get to a less infrastructure type of a model so how do I do that? Well, let me take the easy out. It's these folks in the middle that I'm most interested in because they're the ones that are defined in the future and they're being sole tool today and you can't sell to them, you can't market to them, you've got to educate them, right? And I think having a little bit of history and not a crystal ball but understanding the future needs of computing and being a super user myself, you've got to focus on that middle layer and we're bridging the gap a lot of times with these people and these guys, they're going to kill that whole piece. So that middle layer right now, they're confused, they don't know what to do. I mean, you and I are talking about some new technologies. What's converged infrastructure? We've been doing that for years, our organization with the V-Cube and then the V-Cube and then now the V-Medicube for EMR. You talked about VCE and FlexPod. All these people have come out and they've built these best of breed solutions to help enable IT and they've done it. They've achieved it. It's easier to manage. What's the next thing though? It's still infrastructure, it's still hardware. People want to do, they don't want that. They don't want to manage that anymore. So now we're talking about what is software defined? What is, how do I build a service catalog and enable myself as a service provider or a true service provider? So that test dev guy or that user, they're going to have a portal that they can use that's internal that we're controlling and IT's enabling that. That's key. So Jamie, as software takes over a greater piece of it, is it a fata complet that it all just goes over to commodity hardware? I mean, we heard in the news this week talking about mega mergers, whether it's EMC and HP talking together, Dave was talking about Oracle and Salesforce, massive changes and some of these big companies are going to change. I mean, when we look at the stock tickers today versus where it's going to be in a couple of years, there's going to be some big changes. What do you say? These guys in the middle, they're the smartest guys only because the ones that have given up have just given up hope and they're going an easy direction. These guys in the middle, there are different workloads still today still. They really are. Not only are there legacy apps, but there are also apps that have been built in the last five years and there's new apps coming online that are completely differently architected and they require a different architecture. We still have archiving, online backups, backups. I mean, we still have different workloads that require high performance, capacity and a mix of that up and down the spectrum. So I don't think it's as easy as people are running around saying that, oh, you know what? Here's where we're going, software defined. It's really understanding your business, it's understanding all the different applications. We talked about healthcare real quickly. We do a lot around electronic medical records, specifically in the meta tech space. And that is a application that represents like 10% of the healthcare's application in a hospital. Yet at 95% of the users are using it day in and day out. Okay, that's a piece of technology in and itself that is required to have certain infrastructure. You just can't throw commodity stuff at that. So Jamie, that move from older application, new applications, typically a tough one. I mean, one of the things I look at is virtualization, especially VMware, allowed me to stay with my old operating system, my old application. Do you see that adoption of new applications accelerating? And mobile, too, is a big factor. 100%. That's huge in health care. For years, healthcare was really slow to adopt new tech, but is mobile changing that? Yeah, I mean, it's changing the face. We talk about one of the guys we probably can't mention here. He's a leader out there, CIO, in healthcare. And his idea is he wants an electronic medical record that he can pick and choose what he wants to do. He doesn't want to buy all, and I have to build this infrastructure for it. And if you look at that across every spectrum, that's what customers are doing. They want certain little pieces of applications and all they really need, Stu, to your point, is they just need the compute power to get that application out there. They need the software, they need that portal, they need a service catalog they need to define. Mention VMware. They're doing amazing things with Horizon, where I've got my whole dashboard now. So people, when they either, through attrition, are letting people go, whatever it is, they're not hiring sand admins anymore. They're not hiring server admins or Windows clustering people. They're hiring people that know virtualization and know the application and know the end user. Why? Because it's all going to be enabled at the software level. Is it coming? Yeah, you know, how do we get off of these legacy applications? I think you're touching upon that. We're going to start to see more of that software-defined world where we can put an application and layer it with some sort of a storage resource management virtualization tool and access things that way and we don't really care about the underlying infrastructure. What about VMware? I mean, you talk about VDI, they seem to be getting their act together in VDI. Big time, yeah. And the Sanjay Poon, and what a flip, Citrix used to dominate that. So that's kind of interesting. What do you think about VMware, its strategy, its relationship with Cisco, maybe throw EMC into that mix? What are you saying? Boy, you're really stirring it up now. Yeah, we want to get some some fun here. Yeah, so, lots going on. I personally think VMware has done an exceptional job. They've got a lot of people in their right ear and we know who those guys are and they got the rest of the world in their left ear. Okay, and the fact that they've been able to maintain their market leadership and actually, I would say innovate for the first time in about two or three years, it's pretty impressive to me. You mentioned Citrix real quickly, they're going after Citrix and they're doing a very good job of it. In healthcare, Citrix rules, rules it. And we've got a health facility that wanted to standardize on VMware and eliminate Citrix altogether. And it's a two-year use case that we're building with these guys but we had to use a combination of F5. We had to manipulate things a certain way and eventually VMware is now starting to come to play with all of that ecosystem in a lot better way. What scares me about this though is the Cisco OpenStack type of world. These new applications that are coming online. Cisco and Invicta, we know that there's been some stories going on there about some of that in the field. We have actually good experience, positive experience with it right now and I just see customers saying, you know what, I really just need this virtualize. I need my infrastructure to go back to the future where we had all these servers. I mean, this is what Facebook's doing. I mean, it's just no secret what Google, Amazon, Facebook they're doing, right? It's plug and play in their data centers and there's no creating RAID groups or lines and not managing any of that. They just have a massive amount of compute and storage and they're operating it all through virtualization somehow and some sort of a portal. I mean, you have affinity towards certain technologies. You've got good relationships, but from a customer standpoint, you know, if the customer wants to do something, you can help them do it, right? And that's kind of- It's that middle guy, it's that education. Most of these middle people have some sort of an investment somewhere and this is what I like about VMware. VMware is not standing still right now. You know, status quo and IT, you're dead. VMware is not standing still. They're starting to innovate there. Actually, their language is different now. They're not going out saying we're better than this, we're better than this. You know, Microsoft's done a heck of a job recently. They are very impressive right now of what they've done in their virtual strategy, okay? If I'm a big Microsoft shop that has heavily invested in virtualization, you talk about the education process right there, where do you think I'm going to go? I truly believe VMware has addressed that effectively, you know, but I think new people that are trying to build out something new, you know, it's game on right now. Jamie, what about cloud? So Microsoft's done a great job with their hybrid strategy. Of course, Office 365 is going to pull a lot of people into them. VMware's been, you know, kind of trying to work to find some way that their partners can actually make money on cloud, which I think they still have some challenges there. How does the whole hybrid cloud strategy fit into what you're doing? I smile at this because these are the manufacturers defining the industry, okay? So let's go with the hybrid cloud for the sake of not arguing, right? And the hybrid cloud, we all know what it's trying to do, but it is definitely a model where we have some here and we have some here. I'm okay with that, that makes sense, okay? But, you know, watching the vendors define what's going on in the industry is something that is scary when you go to some of these trade shows or some of these worlds and you hear the messaging. And at the end of the day, you know, I'm living IT every day, I'm a user, I'm a consumer, I'm a guy that has to consult for it. I'm somebody that has to support it after I implement it and I'm not just going to jump out and go grab the next thing just because it's stamped hybrid and it can do certain things. It just, it doesn't make sense right now. Yeah, so Jamie, you're saying it's not a federated model today with your applications. You have some in-house applications and you have some cloud-based applications, which we'd agree and that's what we see. I think I see, I remember as a cloud-based application, so that's all cloud-based that we use today. Our expense application is all cloud-based. We have very- Work days cloud, service now's cloud, Amazon's cloud. But we brought our simplicity in-house. We use our secure file and sync. We brought that in-house on Icelum and the metadata is the only thing that stays in the cloud. Okay, so good reasons though you had to do that. 100%. Okay, but so when I think cloud, I think Amazon has defined cloud, right? And then I think you're right. I think the industry has said, oh, we can't let Amazon define cloud. We have to come in with some messaging. But from a customer standpoint, they got installed infrastructure, they need to do some stuff on-premise and they're going to go to the cloud for SaaS and like you said, a lot of guys are giving up, just saying, you know what, we're going to Amazon. They 100% are and it's wrong for their business. Again, nobody is taking the time. Why is it wrong? Well, that's vendor lock-in number one, okay? Moving in and out. It's a mother of all lock-in, isn't it? Moving, yeah, it is the mother of all lock-in. Moving in and out of cloud, I mean, that's a risk. I mean, again, mentioned VMworld, VCloud Air, the old VCHS, if I'm a VMware customer, that makes perfect sense to me. I can just move in and out seamlessly. I don't care about it. Cisco's doing the same thing with their InterCloud. That whole application-centric infrastructure, pay attention to that. That's the key thing right there because now I can move anything, any resource with those policies already set. Don't have to worry about that. Yeah, Cisco's not rolling over. The whole God knows. No, they're going to start leading on a compliant and secure message. But I got to follow up on that. So you can move it as long as you've got, what, a VMware infrastructure in place? Yeah. A VMware compliant infrastructure, so- For VCloud Air, yes. But isn't that a formal lock-in? I mean, it's all different degrees. OpenStack is locked in, right? I can't run HP's OpenStack distribution on redheads, right, I mean- Lock-in means I can't get out. That's what that means, okay? If I chose a vendor and I happened to choose VMware, I can move those resources in and out and then if I wanted to go to Hyper-V, I can just do a migration and a Hyper-V and I'm in the Microsoft world. So it's the degree of difficulty. Yeah, it's no different than if I wanted to switch storage arrays. Or is Amazon, if I want to get out? No, it's a problem. Have you had customers trying to get out of Amazon? Yeah, and the issue- Well, what's it like? It's not easy, number one. Number two, it costly. And the interesting thing that people are just not paying attention with Amazon is Amazon grew up in corporate IT as test and death. That's how they grew up, we all know that. You start to put workloads in production there, you are paying more money to be on Amazon than you are on your own infrastructure. That's a fact. I've already done that. We've already talked about flash and things like this and minimizing footprint and getting high IO and deduplication and compression. Okay, you give me your budget and I will provide for you an infrastructure that will better perform than Amazon at a lower cost. So when Amazon comes out with its messaging, it says, you know, we cut prices 15 times today. Why do you think? What do you say to that? Is the answer- Not because they're not selling a lot of books. Okay, these guys know exactly that they got in there early and now they get some customers that are complaining because there is a more effective way to do this. I have to save money. I want to be nimble and save money. So to your points too, this hybrid model, I got to have an easy end, I got to have an easy end. I want that ramp, I need the flow. I love what Cisco is doing with this. I love what VMware is doing with this. You know, they're making the flow easy and these guys in the middle aren't going to give up but their lives need to be easier and they got to contain costs. So are the existing enterprise, you know, Wales, the big legacy guys, are they in your opinion doing the right things now to compete against Amazon? Have they finally got that formula right? Legacy customers or- Legacy vendors and their customers. The manufacturers, yeah. The Oracle, EMC, IMN, HP, do they have an answer for Amazon? They do. The problem with that is their customers have a different answer, okay? Elaborate. All right, so Oracle's addressing this, HP's addressing this, EMC's addressing it, we get it all. Everyone's going after this hybrid model. I think it's been well-defined. Okay, we're going to hybrid. You know the IDC platform two, platform three, okay? Nobody's talking about two and a half, okay? How do you get from A to B? 100%. Which is, as you know, the hard part. Of course it is. That's what the CIO cares about. Absolutely, yeah. And what's happening is the CIO is doing a very good job right now of driving these manufacturers to stop defining what I think I need. Let me tell you what I actually need. So it goes back to our earlier point that CIOs are actually really understanding their user community and how effectively they need to take advantage of technology. And if they're, you know, if Oracle, HP, EMC, all these others that you name, if they're not addressing it, they're vocal about it. And you know what, these manufacturers, they're vendors are listening, but they're not aligned. They're not fully aligned right now. I had somebody, I will not name, big and talk to me about, I'm losing all of my customers to the cloud. Not all, meaning my biggest ones. Global customers. They go into the cloud. I'm like, you gotta be, you can't be serious. So like, yep, they're not buying as many of these types of devices moving forward and they're going to the cloud. I actually had a chance to talk to this customer. It's a large financial services firm, they're CTO, and they went to hyperconverge. You know what they ended up doing? They went to things like Nutanix. And they deployed that very easily all over the place. They manage it centrally. They have pieces of it replicating, but still that is not addressing any type of cloud thing. All that is trying to do is say, I'm financial services. I need to make it easier on myself. You know what, I want less components. I want high performance and I want to control it. And that's what I'm seeing the enterprises do. Cloud like with control. Yeah, and the, you know, if you went May through today, the hybrid cloud model, it was almost like this. It was almost like when I was at one of the worlds in the last year or so and they talked about, you know, big data or cloud or convergence. And then since May up until now, it's almost like everyone's thinking, huh, okay, we're in a hybrid cloud model. That's where we're at. And that's what I'm finding. I'm finding people not knowing their identity in IT right now. And the transformation that's happening right now, I've not seen this in 26 years. And again, we have seen a lot happen in 26 years. Decentralized, decentralized, client server technology. I have not seen a shake up like this ever because of the fact that no one knows how to define themselves right now in IT. And that can be scary. Flash is another big disruptor. Let's talk about that a little bit. Gartner came out with its Magic Quadrant. You had Extreme I.O. was up. For all flash arrays, not just flash, right? For all flash arrays, right? Pure, hats off to them, you know. Pulling no punches, making some inroads. IBM right up there for everybody else trying to cluster it around. A lot of people making moves. You know, HP, maybe finally getting its act together. You got violin doing the turnaround. Many things going on. What are you seeing out in the field with all flash arrays? I know how this is going to sound, right? But it's just the truth. If I'm putting my IT, a CIO hat on, you know, you mentioned pure. Let's just look at the top right quadrant for all flash arrays. These are AFA's. These are not people that are putting appliances in front of a storage array and calling it a flash array, okay? Or loading a normal two controller with flash. That's not a flash array to me. A flash array is a solved flash array. It's purpose-built for that. So pure, violin, Extreme I.O., and some others are out there, right? When you look at, again, what EMC is trying to message is basically those different workloads we talked about, okay, where pure is winning is that's the only workload they can talk about, okay? So they're coming at the market to say flash is the future. That's it. It's almost like when people are getting away from tape. You got to go to disk-based backup. There was no other conversation to be had. Sepaton, Quantum, like they all jumped in the market all of a sudden. It's all about disk-based backup. Everyone's saying it's all about flash. So pure only has one message and they're only focused on that message. So to me, you know, is that a challenge? I love that challenge because I'll tell the customer that's great, that's that one message, but I want to address that message here with Extreme I.O. or something and I want to address your other workloads because this is not going to be a like the switch and off you go type of a thing. So I think flash has been disrupted to the point where the messaging today for all these new plays in the marketplace has been disruptive. The idea of getting IOPS, we've all been after that, right? The idea of building these bricks or blocks or pods and, you know, everything. People have been doing that for years. We were doing that, okay? So none of that's any new. It's really, it's the application users. Like how can I make the application much more efficient, much more effective? How can I save space? How can I, you know, do deduplication? How can I do compression? How can I do all of this in just one box? And that's the whole story around flash. It's more about an ROI on owning flash than it is about the IOPS. So you're, I'm inferring, you're excited about Extreme IO. We had the very first box before EMC even bought them. Loved it. And our testing, you know what our testing was? Just moving workloads, virtual workloads between two control storage and a flash memory, right? And that had nothing built into it, as a matter of fact. Day one, it was just pure flash, flash drive. So we saw the IOPS. Now where Extreme IO is, they're leading in all aspects. You know, compression, inline duplication, replications. So now I've got my high performance, always available data center in a box or in a brick type structure. So the more I add, the more compute power I get with that. Still used to work at EMC. Wall Street Journal report came out this weekend. They were probably having these talks back when you worked there, but about HP and EMC merging. You saw that. What'd you think about that? I think there's a lot of groaning in my neck of the woods at Hopkins in Dave when I saw it. And you know, we were talking before the cameras here. There's obviously some big changes, but I see it hard to justify those portfolios. I could have seen when Dave Donatelli went over, ran the shop for a little bit, and he might have been able to sort that out, but Dave's not really running the storage shop anymore. And if we look at the growth that EMC has right now, it doesn't have enough growth for what HP needs to get things moving. So I have a hard time seeing it, Dave. But you know. So what do you think about that, Jamie? Are we going to see the day of mega, mega mergers? Is this the day coming? Yeah. Where the traditional IT business just isn't going to grow fast enough. You've got all these disruptions going on. We're going to have to see more consolidation. 100%. So does it make sense for a company like HP and EMC to come together? Absolutely not. I had heard rumors. I mean, I've been hearing rumors forever that Cisco's buying somebody. Yeah, sure. For the last 10 years. It's been NetApp, EMC, NetApp, EMC. It goes back and forth. It's never been HP. It's been 12 years that rumor's been going on. I met with Cisco back in 2000, and you know, there was discussion to this. Yeah, I mean, please go on about it. I also want to hear the Cisco EMC dynamics got to be interesting from your seat. Oh, it's completely changed. I mean, again, when I talk to people, it's not like I have this epiphany, just look in front of your nose. You know, look at a little history and then look at the actions that are actually happening because that's how you measure it, not by what people are saying at the world when they're on stage together, you know, skipping rope. It's actually what you're actually doing and then in the field what you're trying to sell. So, you know, what's actually happening is I'm perplexed at why EMC would even want to merge with an HP, just perplexed. HP on the other hand, I think it'd be a brilliant move for them. You know, their business model is not where they would like it to be. The world's changing for them quickly. They were the guys that came out and built a very good conversion infrastructure with their Blade Matrix system, right? They had their own Pro Curve servers. They had 3PA, you know, they had everything. They couldn't get out of their own way. You know, they just couldn't go do it. Who beat them? VCE, EMC, NetApp. They all just came out and blew it away. Completely different model, yet they owned all the components. Everybody else had to put the components together, right? So that didn't make sense. So I would see HP really benefiting if they were able to get an EMC. Now, that would mean, personally speaking, I looked at this as many ways as I could with, you know, before I fell asleep last night because I literally was thinking, how did this benefit a customer? We're all talking about our customers here, but no one's paying attention to the customer. This is, I'm seeing it happen every day. They're jamming flash. They're doing this message, doing this, and this guy in the middle is getting pretty smart and getting sick of Soul II, sick of marketing, sick of going to these events about this and about that. And you know what? I'm just coming in the back door and having a conversation, sitting down with the guy and having a couple beers and saying, wait a minute, here's what, here's reality. Okay? What do you need to get done? Absolutely. And how are we going to do that? How do I get from A to B? Without ripping and replacing and without spending a zillion dollars on our servers. But who do you want to be? What do you use as doing? What's the historical model like? Why are you jumping to this? Like even VDI, we talk about that. Everyone thought that was this holy grail of all the next generation stuff. VDI is not about lighting up a virtual desktop for people and building in flash memory and all this other stuff. VDI is about delivering an application with an iPhone-like experience. Okay, how can I do that without disrupting my business? Are you making it easier on me or just making mobility something I can do but at five different logins, it's not secure? You know, that's a problem defeats all of that purpose. So there is no ROI on that, right? But I just think, I think this whole merger thing, you know, and by the way, the whole time this is going on, Cisco's out there doing what they're doing. And they're going in with UCS is wildly adopted. Okay? For all good reasons. Very flexible, very scalable. It's they're doing everything right. I think the whole ACI mentality that they're coming out with in the inter-club, it actually makes sense. Why? They're network guys. They have a big security practice, right? People are listening to that message more because it makes sense to take that next step. Where it doesn't make sense is if I'm engaged with a customer on high-scale out NAS or high-performance computing and HP and EMC get together, I've got iBrix and Icelon all of a sudden. Where am I going with that? I mean, you've got three-part symmetrics. It's crazy. It's so confusing. Now, you mentioned Cisco, they put their toe in the water in storage with acquisition of Whiptail. Does Cisco have to be in storage in your opinion? Yes. Yep, 100%. And their storage is different. So their storage is what Stu's alluding to earlier is that their storage is not so much to light up a storage array. Their storage is more about complimenting the UCS as a front end, if you will, my whole compute power. And literally, we're getting back to the future where we're direct attached. We're just loading servers up with smaller components that are bigger storage and compression and fast. That server-sand model, it's occupied. Yeah, absolutely. Software heavy. And we saw the Dell Nutanix partnership and simplities working with Cisco. I expect Cisco to make more partnerships. I mean, anybody that's storage, they're going to try to work with and there could be some interesting partnerships coming up down the road from Cisco. If you're a customer, wouldn't you rather just be able to just say, okay, I look at my app, I know how I have to protect it, I know who I have to deliver to, I know the IOPS, I know this. Here's the compute power I need. Just let everything else take care of itself. Yeah, that's where you want to be. We got a wrap, but I want to give you the last word, Jamie. Talk about Luminate a little bit. Your message to customers, what do you want customers to know about Luminate? Luminate's done a remarkable job at transforming ourselves. We lead in with N-Cube consulting methodology. Hopefully you've heard some things here today that we've been there, not been there, done that. We have experience of going through a transformation like this. We also have a vision that we want to be able to share with you folks. We have been the first in many areas not to adopt technology, but to really kind of push the boundaries of IT, and we really understand your business. I think that's the key thing, and that's what we like to focus on, process, policy, people and products. Jamie, you're awesome. I'd love having you in the Cube. You're welcome anytime. Really a pleasure. Thanks for the insight. Steve, thanks for co-hosting with me. Thanks for watching, everybody. We'll see you next time on Cube Conversations. This is Dave Vellante with Stu Miniman. We'll see you next time.