 Hey, hi, not hey. Hi. Welcome to CCTV Channel 17 live at 525 the preservation Burlington show Preservation Burlington is a nonprofit 501c3 organization whose mission is to preserve and protect the historic architecture and livability of Burlington through education and advocacy I'd like to thank everybody for tuning in and sort of explain this this month's show My co-host Lisa and I would like to discuss There's been a lot of development in Burlington. There's a lot of stuff going down on the south end So we don't have a guest per se. We're going to rely on our own opinions But we thought we would give people a sense of where to go for resources when they're trying to Understand what they can and cannot do with their historic buildings when they're listed if they're not Or if they just want to be really good stewards of their buildings, right? Yes, and in light of all the things going on all over the place people are noticing Infill construction happening. They're noticing additions to historic buildings. I know that The YMCA is going through this owning process right now. It's been through once before it's not substantially changed But these are going to be dramatic Construction projects associated with historic buildings and the neighbors have come to us in the past and said hey What's going on? What sort of advocacy is there good? Is this bad, right? And this will just we're hoping to have a conversation that sheds a light on some of these practices, right? but first We wanted to talk about a little bit what's up on our calendar because there's a bunch going on this weekend Yeah, this weekend. We have the ramble coming up, right? Yes, we do and a couple of tours So if you go to preservation burlington dot o r g There's some information about these tours and I'm good. I'm a Mac girl, so I'm gonna try and scroll Okay, go to the arrows go to the arrows. Oh the arrows, okay the arrows, so we've got the The oh a neighborhood walking tour that starts at 10 at the William Wells statue in Battery Park Yeah, and then the Elmwood Cemetery tour from two to three on the same day, right? Right all through the ramble and we'll have a table set up at the ramble with information and t-shirts and buttons and all kinds of stuff there, so yep And Elmwood Cemetery is always awesome. There's so many great characters. Yeah, or People well, you know because I think the last time we did it we did it in character So we dressed up like some of the people in the cemetery There's a lot of really great history in there We're also doing in August on August 13th the little Jerusalem lost shul tour That's going to be really interesting and on August 20th a walking tour of Burlington's little Jerusalem and Aaron and Jeff are Really passionate about this. It's been an amazing Really world-renowned save of this discovery in Burlington and they really do a great job presenting it. It's I don't know if it says how long You know it's a pretty long Tour or you know and discussion about it, but it's it's really pretty neat and interesting because it's this neighborhood unlike Urban renewal in the Italian neighborhood. This neighborhood is still pretty well intact. That's how they found the mural. That's an amazing thing Yeah, there's a there's a lot of history there that people don't necessarily realize, right? And then in September Mark your calendars. We're gonna be doing the art hop walking tours again, right art hop walking tours in September and then just foreshadowing for October we're gonna be doing our annual meeting and Awards and awards so people need to go to the website and Nominate projects that they think and houses. They think deserve an award That's we haven't set the exact date yet. I think we're working on that Aiming for the middle of the month. Yeah, right and our speakers Bob Blanchard He's agreed to talk about his new book lost Burlington, which have you read it yet? I've seen it. Jack Jack read it. I have it. I haven't read it yet And I've read the front and back a little bit because the title lost Burlington makes me a little sad And I don't know if I want to know about it But you know the upside is so much of our historic fabric is intact You know, so the things there's some monumental things that are gone and he talks about certain different things obviously the Urban renewal and the Italian neighborhood stuff He touches on all that so I'm definitely gonna get to it's next up on my list of books Yeah, it's definitely on my to read list here because I like to learn about what's what the community has lost because that I think gives us a lot of context and a little ammunition to prevent stuff like that happening again Hopefully, right? So if we know what was there, maybe we can do better and not let things slip away and see that's it That's a healthy approach. I appreciate that but you're a historian. I am I am I'm not I'm just trying to save the stuff That's here. So you're kind of a historian And I'm just like I don't want to lose anything, you know, people come to me and they go Do you think this is worth saving? You know generally a garage a house or anything and I'm like I'm the worst person to ask that. Oh, we say yes. Yeah Yeah, I mean, you know, there's so many criteria for saving it though, too I mean Significance aside embodied energy and where does it go and Disposal and all that stuff. So it's not an easy question and it's not an easy answer There's no black or white. There's a I was gonna say something rude, but there's a lot of gray Lot of gray. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well luckily every time that comes up I have my soapbox with me right in the car Which is so I can hop up on my soap. Oh, you actually have a soapbox. Yep. Yep. Just so I can wax philosophic every time I have to it's one of these days. We're gonna show up. You're gonna be on a corner. Just standing there Exactly right corner memorial auditorium or the cathedral or somewhere. I'll be there But that's a really good point is, you know, how do you determine what is worth saving or significant or important? I think I already said everything. Oh, so I should just Realistically, you're right. You're right. What what, you know, and so back to infill or new construction new New additions on historic buildings, right off times, you know, I will be honest I mostly dislike what the design tends to do and how they impact the historic structures, but more often than not they add Value they add square footage. They add use to historic buildings that were otherwise becoming obsolete, right? You know, so there's the upside and I totally respect that and and often just like the YMCA It saves a historic building on the corner of a main corner in Burlington And it's gonna that building will now look like it always did. It'll have kind of a New building behind it. I didn't say anything rude But it's providing housing. It's providing parking. It's providing it's doing it's providing a lot of stuff That doesn't exist there right now and saving a building. Yeah Well as that part is really tricky because the Secretary of Interior standards for rehabilitation, which I have several copies right here in hand and tax incentive guidelines always Or they dictate that any new additions to historic buildings have to be a compatible, but also be Differentiated from the historic building right and that gets really confusing for people sure and it's very very subjective as to what is compatible What is Different enough that you can tell it's not the actual historic building, right and then what's What fits what is acceptable back? I've it's funny I tell people everybody that this is sort of like the Bible very interpretive, right? You read it all testament or New Testament. It gives you both sides of the thing to consider right in their guidelines and Standards and but mostly guidelines and they're interpretive so exactly so if you you're adding on to a building, you know I remember in the old days Even our library, you know, it's a Carnegie library. It's a beautiful building They're going to about to go through a restoration of the exterior and some renovation of the interior It's going to be really nice They added on to it and they did what was so typical a glass causeway and then some modern thing to the side, you know, and And their interpretation of sympathetic to the building is usually Either smaller set back a little bit, you know, it doesn't have to be but then also Sympathetic to the building could be sympathetic in materials and design Yes, and but then you don't want it to you don't want to fool people in the thinking it's always been there I've run into problems with that in in our zoning office here with porches that look too old Yeah, or designs that look too similar or brickwork. That's you know, it's it's really hard But I don't think we're helping anybody right now. No But There is a way around it. I think you know looking through and these are not fascinating reading They're so boring. They are kind of boring and looks like they haven't been updated like visually since the 1970s You can get this one with no pictures You know, if you want to keep it in your pocket, it's the You know, what do I have one two three four copies right here all different copies at all basically right same thing They say the same thing. It is boring. It's like do this. Don't do that Do this don't do that and you look up every step of something and it's really just bad example It's kind of like your car manual Right, you read it when you you just I don't know. Hopefully it's indexed a little bit better You can find stuff my porch fell off. How do I put a nice new porch on my old house and go to porches? Yeah And I think you know, you can at least free can anybody get these or do you have to pay for them? They're online all the time so they're free online. I they were free It's been a long time since I've purchased one, but no, you know what? I was well, okay, you pay for shipping So I just got the latest Guidelines on flood adaptation for historic buildings because you know, say what you will about our federal government They're spending a lot of time money and effort to gather up People that have a lot of expertise and then give people ideas about how to do how to deal with things You know, especially historic buildings, you know, we have climate change we have Tragic flooding right now going on in our state. Yeah, you know, and then you can get this close to shipping Which is like six dollars or something. Yeah, if you want it let that way, but it is available online Right away, right? So anybody can download or look and there are also lots of documents and preservation briefs That people can turn to you to help them decide how to fix something restore something save something Whatever other verb you want to put in there. Mm-hmm. I think we're lucky to in Again, I'm really going to bat for government organizations right now But I think we're lucky in Burlington because we do have a pretty a comprehensive ordinance So a lot of this stuff has been hashed over for years and And it got a it got a quite a rehashing some what 10-15 years ago Yep, and they're going through a process right now reevaluating so so there's a lot of expertise a lot of opinions right there in our ordinance which Tries to spell it out. I know it's again. It's online. It's not always the easiest thing to access but also By in large with the process being the design advisory board, which I've been associated with the develop which is non-binding Mm-hmm just exists to help you get through the process and say this is okay This is probably not okay and the DRB which then would say yes or no It's confusing having DAB and DRB. I know I know well they were they were even more similar in the past so it's But yeah, I mean that's those are the those are a lot of the hurdles You know and then we have some really great resources at the state level as well to our state Historic preservation office is always I mean they're under Water Literally and figuratively right now. They're really busy and they have a really hard time keeping up with anything But they try to be as responsive as possible and there's a wealth of knowledge there and expertise That I think people don't really realize is there there. They really are a great resource But a lot of people sort of see them as an adversary because they get pulled into a project when there's some contentious issue Oftentimes, right? That's a really good point, too. I think you know so often I tell people ordinances are for the people that want to obey the rules You know a lot of people break the rules and then they're mad and then people that want to obey the rules get Sometimes confused or put off by like you said how confusing it can be in you and some not loopholes But some of the hurdles you have to surmount, you know But I you know I will say again that most of the resources are there and the people that do want to figure out What to do and and want to have More upfront hassles finding out the information and what steps you have to take Smoothes the project out at the end. It's often like when we're we're one in the past when I'm working with people on a historic home And they're want to add an addition or they want to remodel something and I always tell them I know it's expensive and it takes extra time to hire an architect or a designer But it's worth it because then they give me a piece of paper that we can follow people If you don't do that we're gonna figure it out on the way and it's gonna take just as much time and money to do It that way. Yeah And it you're gonna end up happier with the result smoother and quicker usually, yeah Which saves money in the long run, right? There's less contentious issues going on Mm-hmm. I wanted to just bring up this one too Since I brought most of these and they're like I said, there's some others that I didn't bring But this is a new one out too and this is guidelines for treatment of cultural landscapes So can you define what is a cultural landscape? Well, we struggle with this at well You know obviously The in at Shelburne Farms Shelburne Farms is a cultural landscape. It's been there a really long time I I it's also a national historic lands mark mark exactly, right? So I picked this up because The museum, you know, I work at the museum and we have gardens and apple trees that were planted by electro hava Meyer Web, you know and the museum is now 75 years old. So a lot of the footprint of the museum is actually now technically a cultural landscape Perhaps you the ordinance in Shelburne doesn't worry or care about that Because we're not for profit a lot of times We're exempt from some of the rules if we're not taking federal money We're exempt from the rules of but it's a good thing to be aware of and and that that's so I got it there So where would be where's another cultural landscape? Help me work work with me here, you know, I'm embarrassed to say Dan Carly well, obviously that one On the on the scale of Shelburne Farms. Yeah, that's true. I mean down south. There's the billings billings, you know Yeah, we don't have a lot of cultural landscapes in Vermont because we're so the Green Mountain National Forest and we you know a lot of natural landscapes, but no nuts not so many things created Yeah, but and that is the one here in Burlington the Cathedral immaculate conception landscape that we are still in limbo with right and trying to figure out What's gonna get saved and how so do you just if does this address? how to Go about saving a property like that Don't that be valuable for somebody to read if they're embarking on an advocacy effort No It's just like these. It's more of a nuts and bolts about oh, I have one that's considered The next people that purchased the Cathedral immaculate conception and want to save it and want to utilize that We'll get a lot of information in that about what's important what to retain how to retain it, you know that sort of thing You know, you know much like the all of these, you know, this is the did I hold this one up already? This is the one that holds all four right its guidelines for preserving rehabilitating restoring reconstructing historic buildings, so you know Depending on what you're doing if you're preserving which is not doing anything except keeping it from falling down Rehabilitating changing the use Restoring it because it flooded or burned down or reconstructing it because it burned down completely And you want to build a new one? This would tell you all the things to do a sort of it encompasses a lot of the other ones all in one Yeah, it's equally as boring as the others I don't know. It's boring. I like it. I think they're really interesting. You learn a lot about what goes into Evaluating a historic building or you know understanding it and it's place in the context of The error it was built in and why it matters for today So I think they're really important to have it does help that the pictures are great The big question for folks is usually Preservation restoration rehabilitation those are the three big ones reconstruction. Everybody understands but sort of what those things Encompass you know conservation we part you think of conservation with landscapes and it's part of architectural conservation as well But I tend to think of that as Screwing down on the parts, you know the things you're trying to conserve and keep from for from disappearing Preserving is the umbrella of that you know You just want to not let the thing fall apart restoring obviously like I said is Restorations pick a period in time, right? Right, and I think a lot of people really struggle with the preserving versus restoring at the same time Rehabilitating is also kind of nebulous out there But a lot of people think that the act of restoration is Preservation and sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't right. Yeah, right or more often than not it's not yeah And that's the part I always forget because you know, I say restoration is all-encompassing. We're gonna bring this thing back But the big question especially with a historic building or even an old house is What do you want to bring it back to? You know and then then and why you come in the historian finding evidence, you know What was standard practice is when what was underneath that carpet that wallpaper that other thing? You know peeling it back and seeing what was underneath and trying to pick a period pick a period But then it also has to be something that you can live with and use and be functional, right? So there's so many things so many layers and so many avenues to go down so many rabbit holes really is is what it is It's just one rabbit hole after another and you could be in there forever like Alice in Wonderland Yeah, you have to enjoy that that part of it Yeah, I will say that in context of our discussion Interiors don't matter as far as ordinance in as far as right. Nobody's telling you and By in large for private homeowners private homeowners are not regulated at the zoning or the ordinance level No, they're not and I think you know even I Don't think commercial money-making Income producing buildings are either they are when you are going for a tax credit application and you're you're looking at the whole building and The the park service is really assessing what's going on inside and what are significant in interiors or not But this is why also working with a certified Architectural historian is really important through this process because they can help you evaluate What is significant? What is not what is character defining? What is not? What is primary? What is secondary and helping you put these applications together? It's so hard for folks to to navigate this process because of the language It's a it's a vocabulary in and of itself, right? And there's so much that can you can that can go wrong. So that's That's your belly wick. That's your you're really good at that and I friends that are Developers who have sort of hit that wall and they need that tax credit to make that project viable And that's where you step in people like me for people like you. Yep. Yep. I mean I know others But you're right here. So so what does that look like so they reach out to you? How do you where's the hand-holding begin? How do you do you bring them the whole kit and caboodle and say well look it? This is what you could do tax credit wise and how you do that and then this is what you have to Typically no because we're not we're not designers. We're not architects We you know, I could don't know if I could read a plan fully, right? So typically we are brought in when a plan has been sort of designed or ideated Hopefully not fully fleshed out and not Execution hasn't started that there's no such thing as do and you know do now and ask permission later But you know typically a design or an idea will be created and the the historian comes in and says This will fly this will fly this will fly this probably won't you know So and really advise the the the property owner on the aspects of the project that Will meet the standards and the criteria and those that won't and then the property owner has The choice to go for the tax credit or not. There's always a choice involved, right? Right If they want to take advantage of those tax credits Then they need to be really strict and abide by the secretary interior standards And if they don't then they lose that tax credit. It's really that simple. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And are you so you're Are there state and federal people let overseas step in check on these things? Yeah, absolutely I mean the national park service like any government organization is severely understaffed and overtaxed, right? So the state historic preservation office really acts as the go-between and they are Responsible for assessing projects in their own state and typically what a state historic preservation office signs off on the park service will go along with Is that the case in every every situation? No sometimes the park service pushes back a little further and sometimes the The state office is a little bit more stringent. So it really depends But yeah, there's two levels you have to get it by the The state office first and then it goes on up to the park service, right? So and there's always people involved There's people involved, but they're good people You or you're someone like you act as sort of the liaison between the owner It's kind of like an attorney going to court, right and arguing your you know the language You know this is what we're doing and and you can advise people on What what you think not only will pass or not pass because I don't want to give a sense that there's like things You're trying to get under the radar or or scoot through but You can definitely give advice on what you think will meet the standards What will get them approved because ultimately you want to get them improved approved you want to get projects approved but you also want to Be a good steward of the historic building and the landscape that it's in and Satisfy everybody and that's really hard, you know be a people pleaser. It's really really hard. It is I know I've just recently worked with some folks that were trying to get a project through Zoning and they were told yeah, that's not going to work. It's not going to fly and I looked at what they wanted to do They chatted with me. I've worked with them before and I I could just in just in talking to them I knew their language was completely wrong and they were just not expressing their desire They were actually trying to save You know, it wasn't completely lap day, but they wanted to save and utilize a porch I'm built in porch with some windows and stuff and then I just I looked and I chatted with them for a little while and You know It didn't come in front of our board. So I didn't have to recuse it all But I just went home. I said I'll go home and I'm just going to write down I'm just going to itemize and bullet point what you're trying to do here Using the language that you really mean, but you're not saying And just gave that to that. Yeah. Yeah, and sometimes it's one tiny little thing It really isn't you know, it's it's either the language the vocabulary or it could be just The the project itself it could be just changing out the type of baseboards or the profile or or something small or a window Um or a window series or whatever. You know, it's not always huge and It's like saying replace these rotted panels With panels to look just like the ones that were there, you know, the second half of that sentence is so important Especially to like you said good people that are You know either the zoning office the shippos office of the national park service Everybody's trying to do they're there trying to make sure that these buildings are say are Taking care of in perpetuity and they don't want you know, and then I I'm Also that other side, you know, I've seen people do so much bad work I just drive around in my head going just don't do bad work You just see something match it if you can't ask somebody who can right, you know, right And that's the other part of this too is that the research part your microphone just fell off I thought so I stepped on the line again The research part of it so fun is digging for clues Of what was there and how it looked and maybe what the paint scheme was There's so many great people that you know can do this to be able to identify like all the layers of paint and the paint colors From a hundred years ago things like that are so cool I know I'll never admit this again But I kind of like when I see some rot on a building because I can address the water issue And then I can look at how beautiful that trimmer that cornice was and I can I can do it As if I were doing it the first time and it's got a match, you know I think you just brought up an important point. I don't know if you know that you did it or not But um, I think one of the big things too is when you get the chance to educate a property owner on What features of their building are important and why when they understand when they know what they're looking at Because there's so much with historic buildings and landscapes too like our cultural landscapes What we're talking about, you know, you see a pile of rocks and you don't realize what it actually was and what it was used for When you understand those things it gives you such a bigger appreciation for that building that place And people can really get behind it It's the not not knowing what you're seeing that Makes this this whole issue so much bigger and more complicated than it really needs to be Yeah, that's true. That's especially in burlington where there's such a broad range of architectural styles architecture the lumber industry on the waterfront made It was an amazing Plethora of styles and types of moldings and interior and exterior and everything It's like so people look at it and they they can easily become overwhelmed, you know and not know what was when Yeah, that's a big conversation, you know, I smell a I smell a workshop preservation burlington workshop We haven't done one in a long time It might have been a window one or something else I think you know one thing that is near and dear to my heart because I live in one is, you know 50s houses and why their their simplicity is you know important and What they represented in in a change in how people lived and you know how they interacted in the home Inside with each other and all those things and the the transition from big front porches to backyard decks like there's so much there It's so fun. Yeah, it is and I just looked at um, I looked and I helped a homeowner In discussion. He wants to save his hockey house windows Horizontal two over twos, you know and he goes have you ever seen windows like this before? I said I have and I you know and I've salvaged some in case you needed some parts And uh as I drove away from his house sure the couple around him had already replaced their windows But just going through the neighborhood up there. I'm like, oh, there's one. Oh, there's a house that replaced two But look, they still have all these original ones, you know, yeah, I think 50 60 70 73 years ago Yeah, those windows are still performing. Yeah. Yeah, you're talking about the one over one awning windows, right? No, no, these are double hunks. Oh Two over two. I'm going to get in the weeds in a minute. I know we have to wrap up. I had compression jam liners out of wood Fluted wood that compression jam liners with just actual springs screwed to the cool It was now I'm really nerding out, you know, it's a window hardware window parts I let and you know, I might have original windows too, but they're they're two one over one I guess awning windows and they're genius in this rain. I can have my windows open and it's so Nothing's coming in. Nope. Nope. Got to love the past. Yes. Yeah, I do love the past See, this is fun. We could probably do this every week. I say the heck with guests from now on Well, we got to do something that is interesting for the viewers out there as well I hope this helped. I don't know how much time we have but I just wanted to let people know to go to mps.gov And if you navigate to I didn't I don't see here but education and training and then you can find this technical preservation services arrows arrows arrows And you can find so many Different publications if you go down here, you can see all kinds of information about the preservation tax incentives The secretary of the interior standards, which is this these three different booklets that we've been throwing up here or showing But under tps publications here on the right reading the preservation briefs These are really good little documents that address everything from how to replace a window or what to do with, you know Stucco siding or historic materials. There's something for everything here. It's a great resource And they're just fun for just learning about historic materials too. I don't know what else is on here, but yeah There's all kind you could you could go down and start doing do a deep dive go to preservation burlington.org with questions Thank you for tuning in to cctv live at 5 25 and preservation burlington For more information on burlington history our tours and events or to get a marker for your historic house Go to preservation burlington dot org and we'll see you next month. Thanks. Bye