 We're going to start off, you're going to see a lot of rapid-fire things of some extraordinary eloquent and terrific people, and we're going to start off with two who really don't need introduction, but Tariq Trotter, also known as Black Thought, The Roots, in conversation with the cultural critic, historian, journalist, writer, friend, Tore, so please welcome them. Good morning. All right, there we go, they're in the house. If art, and I want to talk about art with you today, if art is about making change happen, hip-hop definitely fits in squarely within that, since day one, hip-hop has been political, has been aggressive, at first it was very critical of Reagan, then of Bush, lightly of Clinton, but now we're in a really special era, a special challenge for the nation. It's funny, but I'm serious, we are in an ongoing national emergency, we just don't act like it every day, but hip-hop has historically been a space where folks would warn, would send out ideas around, look out for this, these are the attitudes we need to have in terms of resistance to a Reagan, a Bush and now a Trump, so is there a responsibility, is there an opportunity that rappers have in this moment to shine a light, to sound an alarm, to tell people how to respond in this moment of Trump? I feel like, and we were just talking about this, about hip-hop, I feel like that's the job of hip-hop, that's always been sort of one of the mission statements of hip-hop, is to be informative in that way, and to sort of be that sounding board, and reflect the times, and to be critical of the culture in that way, but I think what the music has evolved, in the business, has evolved into, at this point, is more pop than hip-hop, and I don't know that the responsibility of the pop artist has always been the same, I don't know if the mission of the pop artist began the same way that the mission of the hip-hop artist did. And you feel a lot of distance from that group, right? Yeah. You're like, they're not doing the same thing that... Yeah, yeah, I definitely, I feel a lot of distance, I feel like the music, the rap music, or the hip-hop music of the millennial, is, there's much about it that I don't really understand, and as I was saying, I feel like it's because it's not for me, it's not being created with my sensibility taken into consideration. Right, when we were 25, we didn't care what 45-year-old people thought, and now we're on the other side of that equation. It's true. Yeah, you know, when I was a young person, 19, 20, I didn't care what 45-year-old people thought. And that's the same thing could be said about people who created and who championed the jazz era before us. But is it just a function of age, or is the millennial rapper doing something fundamentally different that you, as a hip-hop purist, is like, no, that's not it? Well, yeah, well, you know, one thing that the millennial rapper is doing, and this isn't across the board, you know, every millennial rapper doesn't do this, but lots of them have abandoned words, like have abandoned, you know, they don't use words, which... Some of the folks may be receiving hip-hop through their kids, or what have you, so can you give them just an example of what you mean by hip-hop without using words? I mean, hip-hop without using words, I mean, like literally, there are people who are vocalists who go into the booth and don't use any words, nothing, no audible word, you know what I mean? They're mumbling, and the mumble rap thing is something that I was kind of the first person to do, but I did it in jest, you know what I mean, and I did it, you know, just for a chorus of a song where I did rap, there were like three verses, and then the chorus would be, and the name of the song was, Don't Say Nothing, so it was about not saying anything, and I feel like that has become the standard. To flip to the other direction, because I want to talk about MCing in a granular level, as I can get as a non-musician, you are in love with words, and specific words, and we were just talking about algorithm as a word that just sort of appeared to you, they're like, I want to use this, and you're trying to figure out for a week, how can I work algorithm into a rhyme? Yeah. Tell them about that. I mean, yeah, me being from that generation of the hip-hopper, the artist who was super conscious about wit and cleverness when writing a song, but yeah, sometimes a word will just come to me that I'll just set my sights on using, it's like, I don't know how I'm going to use this word, or this phrase, or this idiom, or whatever, how I'm going to make reference to it, but I'm going to, and I'm constantly working on some verse, or just putting together the lines, these words work together, these lines sort of rhyme. What did you rhyme algorithm with? Oh yeah, I had to make up a word to get me to that algorithm. First I was thinking algorithm, algorithm, I should call Alchemist and tell him that he should do a project, or a song called Algorithms, and I was like, no, I'm not giving him that shit. And you were focused on a sound and meaning? Yeah, yeah, for me it's as much about the flow of the syllables as it's about the word that they create. So yeah, so how I got to the algorithm line, I started, I guess talking about my origins, and I like to kind of set the tone so that my verses are vivid, like a visual sort of narrative. So I said, what did I say? I said things we've lost in the fire, the drive, the desire to perform on a higher plateau. I'm at a rap show lost in the mire, wondering how we got so far from inspired. And I say, back when photos were sepia-toned and a record player was something you would keep in your home, the night traveler, the meaning of Tariq, he was known for the exemplary performance uniquely his own, making the 21 pound for some a newfound religion. When money's put down, there's only one sound that makes OGs and young lions equally proud to listen to the secret amalgamism of algorithm. Amalgamism. How long did it take you to write that? I've been working on it like the past week or so. Is it normal, like a week for a verse? Sometimes it'll be 10 minutes for a verse or a song will write itself. But I try to always be working on something. Whenever I hear a word or I'm inspired by something that I might want to revisit later, I make it a point to write it down. So I was watching a baseball game last night to see who the Yankees are going to play in the World Series. And thank you, sir, Jesus Lord. And I could very clearly say, what are the elements that a professional baseball player must master? He's got a throw, he's got a catch, he's got a hit, he's got a run. What are the elements of an emcee that to be a great emcee, what would be a five tool or six tool, what would we be talking about? I mean, I think to be a great emcee, you have to be obviously knowledgeable of the English vocabulary. I think you need to be conscious of the quality of your craft. What do you mean the quality of your craft? Well, you need to, your craft, your skill, your level of skill should matter. It has to matter to you in order to be an emcee, you know what I'm saying? You can't be an emcee and say, man, I don't even write this shit, you know what I mean? I don't even, I ain't a rapper, man, I don't even be rapping, you know what I'm saying? Which I feel like for some of the newer artists, that's what they pride themselves in, in being the antithesis to what we call an emcee. I feel like you need to be able to perform in front of people. You need to be able to make the English language work for you, like in that way, the amalgamism thing, you know? Some people might say, hell, you made that word up, but you kind of know what it means. And there's something to be said about a person who can make up a word. Oh, that's dope. And still convey its meaning to you, you know what I'm saying? So I feel like these are all skills that an emcee should kind of possess. You know, breath control is another huge one. But yeah, I mean, I think more than anything, you need to be read, be well read. And to, no, you don't need to be, you just need to be knowledgeable of words and how they fit together and knowledgeable of how to set a scene and tell a story. Is there a book that you've read that you wish all emcees would read? Yeah, the Webster Dictionary. Now wait a minute, you've read the dictionary? I mean, not cover to cover, but I mean, you know, I think. Maybe like Malcolm in prison, like Aura Park. Well, I'm a book that I think that I wish every rapper would read. Yeah, I don't know. I just wish, you know, rappers would read. When you reference breathing, I heard some giggling, but that's an extraordinarily important part of it. And circular breathing is a critical tool for rappers to be able to rap longer than a normal person would be able to talk. Right. Talk about what is circular breathing and how do you employ it? Circular breathing is is is is just that it's like rationing out. Not even circular breathing is is breathing from the diaphragm as opposed to from the chest. And it's, you know, reaching deeper into one's self in order to project us, you know, sound. And it's a technique used by orators and vocalist singers, people who sing in the opera, as well as, you know, people use public speakers. So. And what does it allow you to do? I mean, it allows you to. Articulate. Without losing your breath, and it allows you to resonate sonically with everyone in the room in a different way. It, you know, gives you a it gives depth and dimension to the voice. Are you doing it now? No. No. Who are some orators outside of hip hop who have inspired you or helped you see, like, that's the kind of vocal artist I want to be? Famous or not famous? Oh, that's that's that's a tough one. I mean, you know, most people, like old pastors of of, you know, like Baptist ministers and like church preachers, I think my style probably inspired by some of those guys somewhere. I had a feeling that you were going to say that. Yeah. To that question. And I didn't I didn't know quite why I thought that. But I thought you would say that a Baptist preacher. Yeah, I think there's something about the placement of the breath that is taken, you know, which we spoke about this before, too. It's there's a point at which, you know, you can take a breath and articulate a sound or, you know, get a word or get a syllable out at the same time. And yeah, when you it's like being underwater and you come up and get to take that one breath of fresh air. It's like it fuels the fire for a little bit of the way. You know what I mean? From one breath, a minister or an artist like myself is able to, you know, speak and project for many more minutes before taking another breath. So yeah, I think I was definitely inspired by by church pastors and stuff like that. When we talk about breathing, I've been thinking about pausing a lot. Right. I'm working with rock him on a book with him. And he talks about writing the rhymes out and planning where he's going to pause. Yeah. And I had never heard an emcee talk about about that. But you do you think about where you're going to pause to get the rhythmic sort of explosion that you want? Yeah, absolutely. I am, you know, if I write a verse or a song as I go over in my head, you know, I'm making mental notes of where it's best to take a breath, you know, just to to maximize, I guess, the potential of said breath. I think my favorite pause of yours. There's a line that I love and I and it's in my playlist of when I'm running because it's an upbeat song, but you say I'm a threat like alcohol, tobacco, and there's a little pause and firearms. And it totally changes where you were, where I thought you were going with the thought. And it's like, wow, like, you know, I mean, the pause makes the huge difference of it becoming two thoughts, right? Rather than just I'm a threat like the ATF like, OK, all right. That's a very simple thought. But when I thought you were going this direction, then you flip it and it's like it just explodes in the mind that much more. I agree. Is that a pause that was planned or did that come out in the studio? Um, it was it was definitely planned. Like, that's that's that's the way that I write, you know, I want, you know, there to be I want you to think that the natural progression of what what I'm saying or what I've written is one thing. And then, you know, to wow you when you realize that I intended something totally different. You know, so when when folks talk about black thought, there's generally two schools of thought. He's one of the greatest of all time. He's underrated. He should be rated higher than he is. Do you think you're one of the greatest of all time? Do you think that you are underrated? I today I think I'm one of the greatest of all time. And then, you know, sometimes I feel underrated, but when we get into ratings, like I've never seen myself underrated, you know what I'm saying? Like when people are ranking artists, ranking emcees, rappers of all time or, you know, dead or alive or whatever. I'm, you know, I'm always in that top 10. So I mean, I feel like that's not. I mean, there have been, you know, millions of millions, but there have been so many other artists to have come before I came out. And, you know, since I've been out here doing my thing, that I feel like that's a great company to sort of be in. Are you still a fan of hip hop like you were when you were back in Philly and trying to get in or has your art or cooled? It's cool. You know, I'm not a fan of hip hop in that in that way. You know, it's lost. It's it's luster for you. I'm a jaded sort of artist now. And, you know, but I'm a champion of hip hop and an ambassador of the arts no less. Sure. But I mean, I don't know who in your youth, you know, there's something to be said about about being introduced to something like growing up with something sure, you know, with with the arts that it always changes at some point. You know, I mean, yeah, I mean, I wonder, yes, there's that. And like, jazz could not continue to shock once its its lessons are taken into the culture. Rock and roll cannot continue to shock. And I think some of us are a bit surprised to get to because we thought hip hop would always be shocking. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure, you know, those jazz guys and, you know, the people who were recording rock and roll when it was still, you know, awesome. I'm sure they felt, you know, that it was something that would never end too. But at some point, it, you know, it always fought. I don't know. It changes. Take a step further. Because the last because the roots had an incredible man as their manager, Rich Nichols, passed away a few years ago. But he's he's an incredible brother, brilliant. And he the last sort of philosophical argument that I had with him, he was like, hip hop is dead. And I'm like, how could you say that? And he was like, you know, its ability to shock is gone. And that is critical to what it is. So do you agree that hip hop is dead? Hip hop, as we knew it, you know, yes, I agree. I agree with with Rich in that, you know, it's its ability to shock is gone. Is it is it is there something that could be done to bring it back? I mean, or we talk about like, you know, the ability shock is gone. This thing is in the suburbs. Like we got to pick up something new and move on. Well, no, you know, the sad part about what can be done and, you know, what is being done to to bring it back is just this the state of affairs, you know, the the the social political state of the world we live in and conditions. I feel like that, you know, begat hip hop in the beginning and that, you know, from that, whatever is going to be next is is is going to come. You know what I mean? It'll be it won't be there'll never be hip hop as you and I knew it in the 70s and 80s and 90s again. But, you know, their hip hop can still exist because the conditions that, you know, kind of called for there to be a hip hop still exist. I know there are things that I can do as a writer that I couldn't have done 15 or 20 years ago, things that I can convey. Are there things that you can do as an artist, as a rapper? And I mean, like, technically, not not that things have opened up because you're a star, but that things you've learned that you can convey now that you couldn't do 10 or 15 years ago? Yeah, you know, I feel like I'm able to tap into a far more personal, vulnerable, mortal side of myself as an artist now. Well, then I was 10 or 15 or 20 years ago. You know, I feel like it is something that is evolved over time and I feel the ways in which I present myself as an artist over time have kind of created not a demand, but, you know, almost like created a mystique where people who are into me, who are fans of the roots have kind of wanted to, you know, wanted access into a different dimension of myself as an artist, you know? So, I don't know, I feel like where before or earlier in my career, it was it was the way I wrote, especially when talking about the craft was more just presenting myself as as the all powerful, you know, almost as immortal, you know. Now I feel like it's acceptable to deal with mortality. You were in that James Brown movie that Chad was supposed to start as James Brown, which was a fantastic film. I was. And there was a great moment when James is rehearsing the band and he's like and you had to trumpet, right? Not saxophone, I was playing Pee Wee Ellis. And he's like, what are you holding? And no, it's a drum, right? You see James saw every instrument as a drum and you can hear that. And you know about that, because when you get in the pocket and you get in the rhythm, you're one of the drum, you are a drum, right? Within. So can you just convey sort of the feeling of what it's like to when you really get in the pocket and you're riding it and you're a drum within the sound, within the rhythm? I don't I don't know that I can, you know. It's a feeling that's really hard to describe. But, you know, when you're there, you know that you're there. And sometimes it's almost, you know, it's overwhelming. You know what I mean? The the you for this is just a feeling of satisfaction, a euphoric feeling of I don't know. It's hard to describe. It seems from the outside like it might be like what athletes talk about when they get in the zone and they know the basket is huge. Or yeah, yeah, whatever. It's I think it's a lot like that. You know, like when you're in the zone, you kind of you kind of know it. How do you practice? Your voice is killing. How do you? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. So how do you how do you practice? The better, the better. I I don't I don't really practice, you know, I practice in real time. I'm always actually recording something or actually, you know, writing for, you know, it's not really hypothetical. So if I'm rehearsing, it's for something that like I'm going to be applying that rehearsal later that day or something. I mean, but yeah, I don't I don't really rehearse that way. I have, you know, I practice for thousands of hours, but it's just something that I don't I don't do. So at this stage, you know, and I mean, just practice in general for being an MC, not for a specific. Oh, I mean, you know, for being an MC, you have to stay sharp. You know what I mean? You have to keep your. So how do you do that? You have to rap. You have to do it. No, you have to do it. You don't always have to be, you know, battling someone. But, you know, friendly competition is always good. It's good to surround yourself with with other like-minded artists who you kind of respect. Yeah, you always be, you know. Always be creating this. That's that's our practice. So beyond for the next generation of MCs, for the guys who aren't. We haven't heard yet, but who are coming up with the advice, what's the direction? What do you want to see out of them? Um, you know, the guys and women that was not meant. Yeah, yeah, I know I meant you, man. I mean, you know, I would I want them to be I guess fearless in their in their creativity and less concerned with the trends. You know, I mean, yeah. When you say fearless, that is really important. And that is a quality that you see over and over in so many MCs, what they say in, you know, how they present themselves. And I remember talking to K.R.S. one about these sort of things. And he said that a hip hop song is like a confidence sandwich in that the listener will put it literally figuratively into their mouth and repeat the words and you build the confidence that the MC had. And then you're ready to go attack the game or your day or your workout or whatever it is. Do you do you are you talking about that same sort of thing? Yeah, I mean, I feel like at its best, that's, you know, that's how it works, you know, um, yeah. It's a, you know, your music can I mean, has the potential to become a confidence affirming mantra. What are some of your favorite words? I don't know, man. It's hard right now for some reason. I can't think of any any words, man. There another one up there that, like, yesterday, I had to get algorithm and I got that in. What's the next one that you've got to get in somewhere? Let me see. What have I been thinking of? I'm thinking about the word vehicular for a while. I was I fixated on the word obsidian. And I use that a couple of years ago in a freestyle. It's like, sometimes would you run that with? Oh, man, it was in the verse that I used when I was speaking at Harvard a couple of years ago. I think I rhymed obsidian with I said, black as obsidian. Black as oblivion. Black as the sky at midnight out to meridian. I'm black as a portrait with Diddy, Tupac and Biggie and black as the influence on the culture we're living in. So all I had was just so I could use the word obsidian. Oh, yeah. Yeah. What's the. Let me get one more. What's your your top five all time emcee? Top five all time emcees for me, Rock Him, Cool G Rap, Big Daddy Kane, K.R.S. One, Chuck D in that order today. In that order. No, in no particular order, no particular order. In no particular order. Yeah, today, you know, or tomorrow, it might be, you know, Ice Cube, Grandmaster Caz, Cool Mo D. You know what I mean? It's interesting that you are still prizing the folks from that earlier generation, which was a more monosyllabic, no internal rhymes, generally less complex, technically complex than the generation that you're part of, which is polysyllabic, internal rhymes, a lot of complexity. Yeah, because I feel like that's where what it is that I do and what my, you know, generation does sort of came from. So, you know, I, when people ask me who my top five, who my top ten, it's always artists who kind of made me want to do what it is that I do. The last thing, man, you are superstar on television every night. You know, you're like, yeah, the other day when I was speaking at Harvard, you know what I mean? Like, you know, and did you catch my HBO show? The Deuce? You know what I mean? I was with the Dallas Symphony and not saying these things in any, you know, way, you know, any non-humble way, but just you're living large and you came from the streets of South Philly, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like, do you ever say like, damn, like I have come a long way? Yeah, I say that every day. I say that every day because I come from, you know, when I was a young person, when I was 15 years old, for instance, I didn't, you know, there wasn't much that I believed or believed in just because I, you know, I didn't have any, I didn't have a reason to. You know, if you would ask me what I saw myself doing at 25 or 30 when I was 15, I couldn't see myself, you know, still being here on this earth just because who lived to be that old? You know, I show me five people from the neighborhood who are 30 and still here. And were your parents gone at that point? Well, my father, both my parents were murder victims. Give me one second when he's heard about his father. Please. Well, both my parents were murder victims. My father, when I was super young, like before I turned two, and my mother, when I was 16 years old. So, yeah, but I'm thankful and just grateful every day because I feel like, you know, my trajectory was something totally different. Thanks, man.