 Good afternoon Everybody, oh, thank you for jointers. There's a little bit of a echo I don't know whether or not that can be fixed or not or maybe I'm just hearing it in my head. I'm Elizabeth Sackler and Very happy to welcome you Today to the Sackler Center and the Correctional Association of New York City are pleased to co-host and we are co-hosting this fall season's three-part series of States of Denial The illegal incarceration of women children and people of color Last spring the Sackler Center began States of Denial with three enlightening panels days Filled with information and organization it began it was inaugurated by sentenced to change with Piper Kerman And she moderated a panel with Stacy McGruder Vivian Nixon and Tina Reynolds It was followed by the Correctional Association of New York's executive director Svia Elijah who moderated mass incarceration's impact on Latino women and children. It was with Herman Cervante Gabriella Horozzo, Pritzkel, Mercedes Smith, and Tamar Kraft-Soller We ended that season That series with crime after crime which is the story of Deborah Prager in California who was incarcerated without parole And it was a fight. The film is a fight about The legal battle for parole for her before her death and also against the justice system That is really stacked against battered women as I think we all know One of Deborah's attorneys Joshua Saffron was here and he joined me in Conversation that afternoon and many of those panelists are here today So I'd like to thank you for your continued work. I'd like to thank you for joining us last year and Thank you for being here again today All three parts of that inaugural programming series Can be viewed on the Sackler Center website, which is at www.brooklynmuseum.com slash EAS CFA slash videos At the same time that we began The series here in Brooklyn I was leading an art workshop at women's maximum maximum security prison in Niantic Connecticut York Penitentiary and At the same time over the years the new press had already published more than a dozen books Really at the rate of one per year on the strategies the impact the profits and the horrific human loss and cost To our social and political System of mass incarceration and what it does to us here in the United States mass incarceration has by design Destroyed entire populations and disenfranchised entire demographics of our country Parallel paralleling this Is the privatization of prisons which has become a highly profitable multi-billion dollar Industry and one example is the Corrections Corporation of America known as most of you probably are aware of CCA began in 1983 and first publicly traded on the NAS stack in the mid 1980s and since 1998 it has Been traded on the New York Stock Exchange and the the stock call letters the trading symbol is CXW and CXW closed yesterday at thirty five dollars and five cents It's different dividend yield is five five point eighty two percent and it has a market cap of four point fifteen billion dollars It is listed as a socially responsible investment and was in 2013 approved by the IRS as a read which many of you may or may not know stands for real estate investment trust It has said and that has a lot of meanings and we're not going to be able to go into it today But I can assure you that we will have an opportunity at a future date To review all of this They've had several stock splits which of course means the stock has risen done very well and split It has risen and done very well in split It's become kind of a darling of some of the hedge fund managers and That is just a tip of that iceberg There are links on my Twitter, which is at Sackler soapbox After my work with the women at York I determined that the Sackler Center and the Brooklyn Museum Would continue the series of states of denial the illegal incarceration of women children and people of color until such time that Women are protected from their abusers Not imprisoned for protecting themselves and their children that we will Continue until the United States has joined the 1959 declaration of the rights of child of the child Ensuring children in our country protection under the law and from the law and Until such time as people of color in this country whether Americans Immigrants or visitors are no longer considered guilty until proven innocent met the first slide please and In case you had any doubts We are living in a militarized zone coast to coasts and I provide the following I don't know if the lights can be turned down a little bit so that you can see the images It's a little bit hard. This is from this is enlarged from August 16th, New York Times and The caption re it's the spread of military surplus gear and the caption reads state and local police departments like the one in Ferguson Missouri Obtained some of their military style and I'm not really sure what that means Equipment through a free Defense Department program created in the early 1990s While the portion of their gear that comes from the program This is still a quote is relatively small. Most of it is paid for by departments or through federal grants Detailed data from the Pentagon Illustrates how ubiquitous such equipment has become The highlighted counties have received guns This is still a quote guns grenades launchers vehicles night vision or body are armor through that program since 2006 the upper left hand The upper left hand Map shows where aircraft planes and helicopters are distributed The mid-left is armored vehicles including cars and trucks The lower left is body armor including vests and helmets the upper right Grenade launchers usually used for smoke grenades and tear gas The mid-right is night vision including sights binoculars and accessories The lower right assault rifles 55.56 I don't know about rifles. I guess so They're not good If all of these were stacked one on top of the other there would be nothing but orange Over the entire United States of America, which is an interesting color. I think that the New York Times chose for this today My hat goes off to the city council of Davis, California and their mayor Dan Volk for refusing the latest Donation of an armored car, which was possibly just recycled from Afghanistan or Iraq And if you go and see today's paper or my tweet at Zachler soapbox You you will get linked into this I love Twitter's and I think we need to all start following mayor walk. He's a Dan lower lower dash Volk and it's WOLK slide to please is a graphic and it's a graphic I think that sort of says it all in there for your viewing pleasure as I have the pleasure of introducing today's panelists those are some graphics of the Materials the items that are shipped around our country The Correctional Association of New York was founded in 1844 is an independent nonprofit organization that advocates for more humane and effective criminal justice system and a more just and equitable society in 1846 the CA was granted authority by now New York State Legislature to Inspect prisons and to report its findings and recommendations to the public This is pretty wonderful, and it's a good thing We have inherited this and it's been grandfathered in because it just occurs to me that I don't know if We would have that at this point in time So we are very lucky The CA has remained steadfast in its commitment to inform the public debate on criminal justice for nearly 170 years The CA utilizes its unique legislative mandate to expose abusive practices Educate the public and policymakers about what goes on behind prison walls and advocate for systemic lasting and progressive change Working in collaboration with a broad base of stakeholders and advocates The CA works to build the power of the community's most negatively affected by criminal justice policy and Decrease the state's use and abuse of incarceration as a response to the socio economic problems facing our communities The Correctional Association's efforts are driven by a deep faith The inherent dignity of all human beings they work to create a criminal justice system that treats people and their families with fairness dignity opportunity and respect Their job is no small one, and I applaud them, and I thank them After their Correctional Association's executive director Sophia of Ajah So her panel last spring I had a meeting at the association uptown with Sophia and more than a dozen of her top staff From different departments in areas for which and for whom the CA advocates At that meeting I invited the Correctional Association to put together panel discussions for this opening salvo of states of denial Today's panel is moderated by Sophia Elijah our first panel and our second by Bill Keller and The panelists include Jack Beck Brian Fisher professor Teresa Miller Tyrell Muhammad Dowd Nashi assembly member Daniel Donald and Reverend Steven Phelps Tomorrow's moderator Tanisha Ingram. She'll introduce her panel and Sophia is going to be your host For these three days of discussions She and her staff have assembled them for us and it gives me enormous pleasure To introduce Sophia Elijah and I'm very proud that the Brooklyn Museum and the Sackler Center for Feminist Art is Providing this for you and this also will be viewed by video online So if you have friends who you know would like to see What is coming up or after you've seen it who you know, they have missed something by all means send them to our website So I invite you to Join me. Oh, I must read her bio for you. I'm sorry Sophia Elijah is the direct executive director of the Correctional Association She is an accomplished advocate attorney scholar and educator Ms. Elijah is the first woman in the first person of color to lead the nearly 170 year old organization in its mission to create a fairer more effective and humane criminal justice system Prior to joining the staff at the CA in March of 2011 She served as deputy director and a clinical instructor at the criminal justice Institute at Harvard Law School a Native New Yorker. We both are we are proud to say She practiced criminal and family law in New York City for more than 20 years Before moving to Harvard. She was a member of the faculty and director and supervising attorney of the defender clinic at the city University of New York. She's worked with the Legal Aid Society and been honored by the National Lawyers Guild in 2010 in Massachusetts She has dedicated her life to human rights and social activism She's recognized nationally Internationally authority on human rights and has authorized several authored several articles and publications on US criminal and juvenile justice policy and Prison conditions. So now please join me in welcoming my sister Sophia You know, you just have to just love Elizabeth Sackler not because she gives you a great bio because but because she Has taken all of her access to power and to wealth and to influence and to focus it on What we feel is the number one civil rights issue facing the United States She could do many other things, but she's doing that and for that we applaud her I want to thank you for coming out We're up against a few challenges at the correctional association. We're always up against challenges for the past two weeks We've been up against no internet service But today we just got internet service back last night That's probably why the MTA took us on today and then we're challenged with the weather also But you know, we overcome everything So I'm going to just quickly tell you about the first three panelists that you're going to hear from The first is Dawood Nashi who I met actually a few years ago Not in an auditorium like this But in an auditorium that was run by the state and it's wonderful to me It's a true Testament to him and to the work that we do that he's joining us today Dawood has been a core leader of the prison visiting projects advisory council from the correctional association since its inception in 2013 he also works educating the public about health care choices and is a featured speaker at many conferences Helping educate and engage young people on criminal justice issues Jack Beck is the director of the prison visiting project at the correctional Association and he's been with us for 10 years He is a tireless advocate. You ask anybody in docs if you say jack back. They're like, okay. Okay. What do you want? What do you want? so Jack has a very long bio, but i'll just tell you briefly before he joined the correctional association He litigated litigated against the department of corrections for many years With prisoners with the prisoners rights project of the legal aid society And last but not least is tyron mohammed was also a staff member at the correctional association He's an advocate youth mentor workforce creator and community leader Mr. Mohammed has focused his energies on helping individuals in need including only incarcerated persons and at risk youth to lead better lives build stronger communities And obtain employment opportunities. I'm not going to say much more about them because once you Hear from them they I'm sure will tell you more about themselves and you will be as wild as I am By them. So I'm going to first we're going to see a little video clip Which jack just told me don't have us come up yet So we'll do the video clip and then they'll join me on the stage for an engaging conversation After we finish with them. We will have the second panel with bill keller assemblyman old donnell Professor teresa miller and reverend steven felves Okay, I think it's on with the video So when they speak about revolution They must speak about a change because we are human beings and we got to be treated like human beings We are men We are not beef and we do not intend to be beaten or driven as such We call upon all the conscientious citizens of america to assist us in putting an end to this situation that threatens The lives of not only us but of each and every one of you closer to the reality Of the demise of these prison institutions that serve no Useful purpose to the people of america, but to those who would enslave and exploit the people of america one of the large army helicopters is taken off It is known that the army helicopters are loaded with With what is called riot gas though. We're not quite sure what kind of gas it is anyway, here Here come the helicopters and they uh They are now heading for the prison Helicopters now going overhead and over the wall into there's a slaughter like man. These are people We're defenseless. All right. They they had stakes And homemade weapons to defend themselves, but this doesn't compare that man with with magnums and carbines But this is ridiculous, you know The next thing I know is this big helicopter flying over this and Tier gas is coming from everywhere. It's a whole lot of shooting So naturally everyone is running for cover you know So i'm next to the wall and I know around me that everyone is Hiding in case of guys spitting rags and putting it to their nose But what I know is troopers start coming from everywhere. Then I start seeing people fall You know, they were they were shot Guys was losing their hand Shot in the head and the neck the mass murder that took place Cold-blooded premeditated murder I am telling you what I seen with my own eyes I speak of my dead brother L.D. Barclay I know for a fact That he was Premeditatedly murdered. I know this I was taken out of the yard And I was put on a table Nude at present have cigar burns cigarette burns all over My testicles at times bother me now From cigarette butts sticks rifles Laying on the table with my head looking up at the catwalk being spin on Hot shells thrown on my body I tried to cover up with my pillar. Can you imagine 250 pounds getting under a pillar? State troopers and police came by and said nigga get out of that pillar We wanted you to have a cover. We would give you one You're gonna die in the morning nigga. So it don't make no difference Nowhere, whether you freeze or we kill you Nigga black power, huh black power, huh? That's all was said to me while I was in that room Trying to make me be the animal that is To reverse The victim to the criminal the criminal to the victim Our woman And treat him as a beast you're gonna always have a problem In these concentration camps Because what is happening in these institutions Is the most cruel and unhuman punishment and treatment that any person can be exposed to We are men We are not beast and we do not intend to be beaten or driven as such People must know that we are dying. We are being murdered every day That is what's happening here What I see is this for the people in the street I see Wake up because the same thing is happening to me is happening to you And deal petition rallies Let the people know how you feel about your sons and your daughters. That's incarcerated Other than that wake up Because nothing comes to a sleeper but a dream I'll ask our first panelists to come up and while they're doing so I would like us all to reflect for a moment About what happened 43 years ago at attica and the lives that were lost And the fact that new york state has yet to apologize To the families of the people who were killed by the troopers who were brought in And they just murdered them Good afternoon everyone My name is dowoon ashii I served 28 years in new york state prison And i'm here today to speak to you very briefly about my experience at attica You know for the first 20 years of my incarceration, I basically avoided the disciplinary Facility Of which we call attica because it's a disciplinary facility because this is where people Who are real guilty of disciplinary infractions are sent after they serve their special term in the key block housing units And so in 2005 I was real guilty of providing legal assistance to an individual And as a result, I was given 90 days in the special housing unit And upon being released from the special housing unit, I was placed on a bus and I was taken to attica Now if you've been in new york state department of corrections for a minute or two You've heard a lot about attica attica is a place where No one in new york state prison wants to go Because of the abuse that is historically engaged in because of the abuse that occurs there today And so 2005 I was taken to attica and immediately upon getting off the bus We were told to line up and one of the things that we were asked was to state was our din numbers And immediately after that we were asked just to state why we landed in attica And I believe it was seven or eight of us Many of us had Infractions that were relatively minor. Um, again, I had an infraction that involved providing unauthorized use of assistance for legal matters, some guys had Been tested positive for dirty earnings And so one by one we stayed our din numbers We stayed the course while renautica and then they got to this one individual and he chose not to state Um Why he was there he did say his din number and after being repeatedly told to state why he was there he just refused and immediately You know, many of the officers, um, the prison guards who are employed at attica are very huge. Um, this guy I believe he was six feet six five or six seven And he struck this man and he struck this man with a blow that was so powerful that it knocked him down Um, and then immediately after that several of the other officers came and they began to beat him with batons and all of this Happened as a result of him choosing not to state while Choosing not to state why he was uh in attica And so this is my first experience with attica this kind of abuse. Um This kind of intimidation Is what happened And so, um, you know, there was nothing anyone can do for the individual. Um They handcuffed them they subdued them and they took them off But the message to us was a message of intimidation The message to us was a message of fear And that is what attica is known for today. Um, as I told you I I I winded up in attica as a result of providing unauthorized legal assistance. Um And so while I got to attica I used to go to the law library. I stayed in the law library. Um And at times I was at I would be asked to photocopy documents And I guess the officers didn't like that. Um, and so One day upon returning from the law library. I I Returned to a cell that you know, I've had numerous cell searches Like as you can imagine over a 28 year period But this particular cell search, um, was was was the absolute worst I mean pursuant to the directives they say when a cell is searched, um, the officers Is responsible for putting items back where he found them Um, but this particular cell search, um, um, I had everything that I had Everything that made life Um Easier inside a prison, um, tossed on top of my bed From the tide detergent, um To the liquid Dishwashing detergent To open bags of rice to mail that I accumulated over the years Envelope over here a letter over there Um And it was just the absolute worst. Um, it was no way possible I didn't think it would be possible to put everything in one cell on top of a bed But that is what happened and as a result, um I was given a disciplinary infraction for having a social security card Um, a social security card that happened to be my own And so when I went to the disciplinary hearing, um, you know It was clear that this was my social security card a photocopy of my social security card And I was still real guilty I was still real guilty and told that, um, in attica We don't value to possess, uh, your social security card And so attica your own identification my own identification. Um, normally there's an identification card But I mean the reality is that there are some directives in the state that Permit you to have a social security card, but in attica Um, it was in the violation of their own laws And so, um, you know, I attempted to reason with the hearing officer, um And that was to no avail. Um, and so One of the things that I need you need to know about attica is that attica, although a part of the new york state department of corrections It has its own sets of rules. It has its own Guidelines and oftentimes those guidelines conflict with the rules that are established by the department But there's no recourse. There's no accountability. It's just a Culture of abuse And that is still going on today. Um, I'm in touch with many of the friends I left behind in attica Um, and so this abuse continues um, and it's very little To being done about it. There's very little Being spoken about because there's a there's a culture of not only abuse, but of a culture of intimidation And that is what you need to know about attica Thank you. Thank you very much for sharing I'm going to turn to you jack. You have Dedicated the last All of your life to taking on the department of corrections and community supervision as it's known now docs And i'm going to ask you if you would briefly share with the audience some of your insights from where you sit at the correctional association Thank you. Sophia I've been going upstate to new york state prisons for 33 years Uh, and attica unfortunately has been a frequent place that I go to I did it as a lawyer on behalf of litigation and now for the last 10 years for the correctional association When the correctional association goes into a prison We spend generally two days in that facility and we go everywhere we can in the facility We literally go to every housing area every program area Staff is with us But our whole notion is and actually today is largely about trying to bring the voice of the people inside Out of those walls to the public Um When we do that we are one of the things we're doing is actually asking every person that we meet Whether they would like to get a survey from us about conditions inside and at attica like at other places We've been at we received several hundred surveys more than 300 surveys of people inside We did that in 2011 wrote a very large report That details all the problems of the many problems But attica has not changed attica has not changed. Unfortunately since 1971 when there was a riot till the present the same attitude and conditions kind of exists of oppression violence and force and so this year Again looking at getting ready for the anniversary. We said we had to do something more We've reported the big numbers. We've looked at the data, but we really wanted to get the voices from inside heard And so we Corresponded with a hundred different individuals that we had known at attica We went up and went through 40 long detailed interviews Out in the back if you came in we get we have put together The stories of 12 very brave men who have decided to come forward and actually let us tell a brief part of their story anonymously And today what we're trying to do is our whole function for this visit And several visits in 2014 is to ask this question. Why is attica so bad? What does that abuse mean? How is it being done? And what if anything can be done about it? I don't want to leave any surprise We think that the only way to really correct attica is to close it and we'll go into more detail But I want to leave out. What is the problem? What is the problem with attica? And we're about to issue a report probably in the next two or three weeks You'll look out on our website and it'll be another large report that's collected a lot of data because we recently got a foil request from the state about every disciplinary report from 2010 until 2013 it represented 270,000 disciplinary hearings But more than that those are multiple Actually violations in each one because they issue about 135,000 to 150,000 separate violations every year in the prisons We have basically a prison system that tries to control people by discipline Whether it makes sense or not and their discipline is translated into isolating them in solitary confinement But that's getting a little ahead of the story What we tried to do is we went in there We tried to talk to people and said what is the nature of the problem and they're several First of all it starts with just physical force They beat people up Diode story we have heard and documented has happened in every decade of every individual I've ever talked to When you enter attica, there is an opening introduction And they pick somebody out in the group that is there and they will intimidate them insult them and possibly abuse them because they're making a statement And we had this story repeated by everyone we interviewed. There's a statement there that says You are now at attica and attica we control and we're going to show you how we control it That force happens everywhere, but it's particularly focused from what we got in two blocks a block and c block And by the way, we've looked at data and our the anecdotal stories are confirmed by the other information that we got So when we looked at unusual incident reports about assaults on staff And by the way, that means if there's ever a confrontation with an incarcerated person It turns into assault on staff Even if the only injuries are to the fist of the officer and the face of the an incarcerated person And what we found is that there are massive numbers of assaults on staff by the way and a and c block and another area in the corridor We have to talk about the corridor of attica The corridor of attica when you walk in attica You have to walk around silently with your head down and the staff escorts everyone with their baton out in their hand Tapping it on it. I've been there. I've observed that this doesn't happen at any other prison This is oppression and force But if you have a number of incidents in the corridor, which we documented in this data That happens because they do another thing When they want to assault an individual what they often do and if we have formally incarcerated people here Although we're late to it is put you on the wall You're going to now be searched and they spread you out You have your hands on both sides and your feet spread out And if you lift the hand or get off the wall, they can now say that you're resisting them and they can assault you And we had countless numbers of stories of having this happen If they want to get to someone they put them on the wall They kick their feet. They try to insult them. They grab them Unfortunately trying to search them which means running their hand up their buttocks or grabbing their testicles Sorry to be graphic, but this is what happens. And if they do anything, they will then be assaulted Well, attica has one of the few places where they have all these unusual incidents occurring in the corridor When people are under tremendous control. These are examples of that We also have abusive patfrisks and even sexual violence And so we see that And we see repeatedly and in the documentation we see on discipline on unusual incidents. It is confirmed There's another type of violence that goes on. It's abuse of authority If they don't beat you at attica, then they get other ways of intimidating you and abusing you by harassment by Racial epithets I'm sorry the word nigger is used all the time at attica. You can't talk to anyone who says that that's not how they talk to people It's a term that is addressed to people all the time And when you have 80 of the population that are people of color and almost no people of color on the staff You can see where that's a problem. I'll get to racism more in a moment But this abuse of priority also goes in other ways because attica does their own informal punishment besides discipline What they'll say is you're going to your cell You're not coming out for a week That's not any order That is something that they say but if you come out You will get a ticket and you will get assaulted And so people are afraid and they just stay inside I interviewed a man in his 60s who said I can't take it anymore. So I just never leave myself I can't have a job or anything. I'm just going to stay inside because I'm too afraid to come out self-imposed isolation And finally what they do is they write up false tickets and false tickets is a a great reality there Because remember as dow who described You know your cell they can come in and search at any time and it is so easy to put in a a weapon or contraband or anything like that And get a ticket Finally, there is this notion if you complain We will retaliate and that retaliation takes the form of false tickets, but it also is having I am staff member a you insulted me But I'll have my buddy who works on the same shift come in and find something to get back at you So we see abuse of authority Finally, we see massive discipline this thing that I talked about It's hard to kind of describe but There were 6600 tickets that they wrote just at attica over a four-year period of this data that we looked at This represents almost half of the population at attica got a ticket at attica 2766 people were sent to the shoe during that time period just from that one prison 450 people had accumulated shoe time That's more than a year if you've ever been home sick For three or four days in your bedroom And you kind of get antsy Imagine being locked in your bathroom Nearly 23 to 24 hours a day for a year This is what they're doing to the people there And there is massive amount of that We looked at all the disciplines for assault on staff There were 238 different hearings where there was assault on staff 237 people were found guilty There was one amazing person for some reason that wasn't and I can't understand why Even if they find them not guilty of the assault on staff though They charge them with other things and so everybody went essentially to the box Racism racism you cannot look at attica and not think about racism racism is overt There are people with tattoos That that are racist in conduct There's a story we hold and repeated by others on a christmas tree They had a little black baby with a noose around put on the christmas tree Kkk tattoos This is not subtle This is overt And finally there is this sense of a culture of violence What we often say is it's not some prisons. There are a few bad apples Of staff that are are violent that are difficult But this is a culture that actually takes people who have actually worked at other facilities and people say they were not so bad They get to attica they're overcome by that violence and this is the point why we started with that film We're not trying to repeat the film, but it seems today 43 years later The staff at attica think that a ride is about to occur tomorrow and they approach the population that way with such intimidation and force So that everyone gets corrupted by it Everyone it's an us versus them You have to choose sides if you treat an incarcerated person as a human being you're taking their side And that intimidation and force corrupts everyone who is there Population as well as staff They change where violence Is the and force is the mechanism for how one communicates So we see violence among the population And people feel so disempowered that force is the only way to To assert that and then finally We have to say this I've learned something that you've said finally four times So i'm going to ask if you could give us your real final so we can get to how and then i'm going to go back So lastly, I just wanted to say that the result is self-harm of people inside And and unfortunately at attica has one of the highest suicide rates in the state and literally at four prisons There are 40 per percent of the suicides happen in just four prisons and attica is one of them So these walls Have too much violence in them behind them too much history of abuse There's too much intimidation too much fear and finally there's too much hatred For it to be forgotten or forgiven Or practically to change and that's why we must close those doors Thank you Good afternoon. I'm terrell mohammed I spent 26 years and 11 months in new york state prison from the age of 19 to the age of 45 From 1982 to 1984. I was an attica I knew um big black. He was one of my mentors Matter of fact, we have one of the lead attorneys here today, elizabeth fink. Let's give a round of applause looking at the film And remembering when I was there As you've seen it was Black men, latino men, poor white men The demographics have been changed And what's sad is that the culture that dahul talked about is allowed to exist Because prisons are built and located in upstate rural areas throughout america And unfortunately throughout america, we still have a racial divide Jack beck talked about the racism at attica But not just at the facility Outside the town of attica The town of attica Has a culture of racism So that's why attica is allowed to exist Of ferguson. Missouri is allowed to exist The culture that killed eric godna is allowed to exist because this is a culture of overt racism That we tend to turn a blind eye to And we never had that discussion So when we asked the question why The question should be asked why why he didn't have that discussion in congress concerning slavery and racism See, we refuse to have that discussion. So attica exists And because attica exists People will be in dehumanize The only reason why it can exist because those who work there have to see me and others like me as something less than You couldn't do that job to see me as an equal or as a human being You couldn't see me as a human being Beating me down day after day Not just physically but mentally and psychologically Every day if I have to see A officer come in with a tattoo with a baby noose on his arm His sleeve rolled up Looking like the Marlboro man And he calling me a nigger nigger. It's time for chat Nigger it's time for the count This is the language that's used every day At one time you couldn't even speak to our officer the officer wouldn't even speak to you He used this but time if he hit the cell gate one time that means to step out If he hit it twice that means to walk And when I was there we refused to obey by that rule We refused to hear by that rule Because we said we human beings you can talk to us And if you can't talk to us then don't deal with us get another job I was in Attica when affirmative action came in From 82 to 83 They bring blacks and Latinos from Rochester and Buffalo to work there They didn't last a year This was staff They got beaten up They got raped They got chased out of there They went to a facility that had to open up in Rochester or Buffalo called Wendy correctional facility It was like an exit this when they opened that facility every black staff every last team of staff left out of there See this is allowed to happen. No one questioned why the staff wouldn't believe We want to integrate the population of the correctional staff But it didn't work. This is how powerful the overt racism is Albany those that's in power the politicians we turn a blind eye to this Because it's a it's a it's a messy it's too messy for us But it's getting more messy Another Attica's just on on the verge of happening You only can dehumanize someone but for so long believe me Our coward will fight back And if you continue to allow this to happen See we set up campaigns We protest we march We want our voices to be heard But when you come here to a forum like this You're supposed to be motivated to get involved to end this type of treatment Because this is not just a few good speech or informal commercial What we're speaking about is to empower you and to inspire you to get involved We talk about shutting down Attica. Well, that's a long battle For the three years we talk about a paradigm that was based upon punishment America has used the prison punishment paradigm And it's policy of corrections And it doesn't work In the real world if you have a policy like that and you don't get no results you get fired Some of them people need to be fired But we turn a blind eye to that We asked about more solutions that can be transparent to make things more aware to the public Like to have more cameras Well, they got cameras there, but not enough But understand something a human being controls those cameras We asked to have public reports done at least four times a year That can occur Who really read those reports? Do you No, because you don't go to our website. I'm just talking the truth here Because if we do not open our eyes and wake up as black said Attica would be happening all over again and then we'd be back to square one why? And we don't have to wonder why because it happened already The answer is we were silent When we look at this world Remember And Nazi Germany good folks was quiet Why wicked things were going on? And because they were quiet when it got today though, they wanted the world to see They wanted someone to come to their aid But it was no one there to do so Family don't wait We have in the back. We have sign-up seats Getting involved We have a website Go to our website Don't come here for today Then go back and have a discussion as if it was a topic of some informal information Leave here today and get yourself involved and others involved But we have to shut down Attica There's no question about it. We can allow people to continue to be degraded We can allow our loved ones to come home with that psychological scar And we wondering why they're always returning back to prison Or we wondering why they can't sleep at night Or we wondering why they're introverts Some serious things occurred to them And it shouldn't happen Many of our legislators, they know about Attica But it's not politically good to take on a cause like that But guess what? If you're a human being and you stand for what's right Then you stand to do what's right Of course, many of the men went there before problematic behavior or criminal behavior But don't you supposed to be rehabilitated there? Isn't it supposed to be an institution where you get your life together so you can come home to be a productive citizen? Or is it a place where you're going to be dehumanized And then come back to the world thinking that the world owe you something and you become worse off than when you went in Get involved family because Attica is all of us. Thank you Two quick comments from the audience and then we're going to change panels. We're going to do the Q&A at the very end I'm reading some my name is Raina Lennon. I married to someone at Attica And I am going to read something that he wrote And it was kind of co-written by someone at CA It's called coping in Attica State Prison While on a visit recently. I said some mean things to my wife Raina the most compassionate woman I've ever known Days later. She wrote me in a letter that sometimes I don't know how much of your meanness Is from the awfulness of Attica or if it's your personality That's tongue, but it's the former. I think that often shapes the latter I've served 13 years of the 28 years to life sentence for shooting a man to death on a Brooklyn street It was a terrible crime for which I am incredibly sorry I've done most of my time in Attica a place where 43 people were killed 43 years ago Today Attica remains a toxic environment fear and anger permeate perpetually That is why the culture of Attica only promotes retribution and incapacitation As for rehabilitation it almost only exists in the form of volunteer programs Unfortunately volunteers only have the wherewithal to help but a few Thousands languish on waiting lists I'd love for administrators to use me to help my peers However, today I swing a mop as a porter and spend most of my time in my cell reading and writing Administrators in Attica indeed squander their incarcerated person resources Security security security It is the eerie mantra that will always be at the forefront at Attica The lack of opportunities increases contentious relationships and violence at Attica Added to that security overshadows every other concern The result is a palpable tension that lies under the surface There is always intimidation and incidents of abuse particularly in a block and c-block Abuse is continuous because it is part of Attica's history and the ongoing culture that arises from that history I was at Attica in 2007 and returned again in 2009 From 2007 until today Attica has remained a mean bleak environment Whatever is done will ultimately not be enough to change the decades-long prevailing culture at Attica In the end the prison should be closed There's a meanness that operates in Attica the coldness of the place affects you At times thoughts arise and I have an internal wrestling match Which I grapple with both my resentments at the stupidity and destructive inefficiency of Attica As well as the stupidity and arrogance of my crimes These self-loathing bouts pummel me emotionally and perhaps pummel my peers too Sometimes we become angry and mean it is sad though because we wind up being mean to the ones who love us most Thank you This letter is from my son And it says torture in Attica's box The shunt is intended to mentally torture It is designed to break you There is constant noise arguing and yelling There are no rehabilitation processes at all What is the sense of being here? There is no purpose Other than painful idleness and mental august Where's the rehabilitation? I have been in solitary confinement nearly 11 years The box is starting to get to me I suffer anxiety very often I will all of a sudden start hearing fast-paced breathing And I cannot stop it I have begun to suffer high blood pressure After being in the box I also suffer from hallucination Sometimes I think people are calling my name Or I think I see people walking by But there is no one there Last week I heard a train going by And no one else heard it It makes you so crazy This box has a major impact on my family too I haven't been able to hug my mom in 10 years My biggest fear is that I will get a letter saying that my mom has passed away I have to see my To see my finding Excuse me I have to see my finance My financing And my financing though it isn't through a gate That is the only way that little girl knows me Yesterday was my birthday It was really hard to spend my birthday in this box alone Without any of my family members or any other human being To do nothing on my birthday But sit in my cell and think about the fact That I have lost 10 years of my life in this box It is so hard to bear And as if The insulation of the box itself wasn't enough The relationship with the correctional officers at Attica are terrible There is constant mental torture at Attica Correctional officers know how to play mental torture Harassment abuse and threats For example It is a real problem That it is the CO's handling your food There's always a constant fear that any day the correction officer will slip something into your food And they will do stupid stuff to play on that fear They will say things like enjoy your food And a way that makes you think that they did something to it And even if they didn't actually do anything It messes with you For a CO will put coloring in your water To make it look like urine And then they make comments like sorry couldn't hold it Unfortunately, it's not just me who suffers abuse And it is not just in the box There are always guys coming into the box at Attica After they was assaulted by the staff Something has to be changed These guys took 10 years of my life No one else should have to endure this torture in the box at Attica or anywhere This panel and we'll pull up our next panel that will be headed by Bill Keller And while they're coming up, I'm going to read Bill's bio So Bill is the first editor-in-chief for the Marshall Project Prior to joining the Marshall Project, which just started He worked at the New York Times, shown 1984 to 2014 as a correspondent editor and most recently as a columnist From July 2003 to September 2011. He was the executive director of the Times I won't say any more. His bio is quite impressive. You will hear from him And the rest of our panelists will have Reverend Phelps, Assemblyman O'Donnell and Professor Teresa Miller Thank you, Sophia Our new project, the Marshall Project, is not an advocacy group. We're a journalistic group But I do have a weakness for Sophia Lulijah and I basically salute when she asks me to do something So that's why I'm here today Let me introduce the rest of the panelists and then put a couple questions to the to the group Daniel O'Donnell, who is an Assemblyman for the Upper West Side and Morningside Heights Is also for the last what 18 months or so The chairman of the corrections Committee in the Assembly He just paid his first visit to Attica Reverend Stephen Phelps is a former interim senior minister at the Riverside Church He has Also been a professor in the master's program at Sing Sing And has racked up something like 200 visits to Attica over the years And Terry Miller is vice provost and professor of law at SUNY Buffalo And for the past five years or so advisor to the lifers group at Attica. She also made two documentary short films on Attica so we have People who know the place about as well as you can know it without having been an inmate there, I think And I'm going to start with Assemblyman O'Donnell I know you're relatively new to the job of corrections chair But in the last 18 months or so, I think you told me you'd been to 20 prisons That's correct And your first visit to Attica was just within the past week on 9 11 on 9 11 So how does it compare? Much to my shock It was not as bad as I thought it was going to be And it was not the worst I had been to I believe that that change Is partially the result of the correctional association Because I read their report in my hotel room the night before I had been to Albion the day before which is a woman's prison and Much of what they wrote in the report Was still going on but the Some of the staff who was with me who were there three years ago Said that when they walked down the hallways And none of the inmates would talk to them. They wouldn't make eye contact. They wouldn't That was not what happened with me. I talked freely with inmates throughout I was there for three and a half hours. I talked to 30 or 40 of them Walking down the halls in the classrooms In the solitary units So it wasn't what I had feared it would be About two or three weeks ago. I was at Clinton which Which was really really bad and the explicit detail About how the inmates were beaten by staff and where they were beaten by staff was Really horrific That is not what the I meet with what's called the inmate leadership teams alone in these prisons and so To the extent that they can talk freely This is as free as they can be because there are no corrections staff in the room when I'm having these conversations And there are continuity problems with C block Which I read about in the report They have a relatively new superintendent And I think he has made a change in the difference I went into the visiting room and talked to inmates during their visits At some of the prisons I've been to there is only There's a plexiglass partition between family members. That was not the case of attica It was like a cafeteria room where people sat next to one another freely could hold hands could talk That was more freedom than I had experienced in other places. And so Is it a bad place? Yes. Was it the worst that I've seen? No Let me put you on the spot and ask, you know, the correctional association Strongly advocates closing attica Do you support that demand Do you think it can be fixed rather than Shutdown When I got this job the first week I asked then Commissioner fischer when he was closing attica. So whether or not I agree with that is a pretty much given. The answer is yes however the problem that was described about who works there and What the nature and culture Around prisons, you know, what good does it do us to close attica? If the very culture and attitude that's going to exist exist in great meadow and clinton and green When I was meeting with the inmate team in green They said to me that they have never these are people who came from attica These are inmates who were in attica who are now in green and said to me I have never met a group of people who enjoy putting their hands and feet on you like the people here at green so Shutting attica would be a good idea, but I'm not so sure that's going to solve the problem because The problem is not much better at green and I think the problem is worse at clinton So professor miller, um, I guess the first question is you spent some time in attica. Do you agree that it is Improving and then the larger question of course is Can it be fixed or should it be closed? So I've spent some time In the last 15 years with students inside and outside attica also as the lifers group advisor You know part of the problem is that The way in which Attica has run as a prison as some people commented before it's it's security first It's hands-on first and I have I'm very fortunate to work with a marvelous group of Men at attica who are serving life and who have spent dedicated hours and hours and hours at a time to making the place better right, so I think I I too am impressed by the new superintendent I I think that Attica needs to well all prisons need to adopt a different model And one that that doesn't have that hands-on first And then and and then we'll talk right but first really I think what's striking about attica is you You you see people with incredible human potential and it's wasted You see people who are not the same people they were 20 years ago when they did horrible things But they're still treated as if they're the same person you see officers who treat Officers who are proxies for victims right whose Job it is to make sure you know how much the world hates you as opposed to helping you to Grow develop and get on with your life and and become a better person As a person who lives and works in western new york It is not a very popular thing To advocate for the closing of attica right a lot it ensures a lot of people's jobs But corrections is not a jobs Growing industry right it's an industry in which we're supposed to positively affect society by By decreasing the risk of crime. So yes should attica be closed sure It absolutely should but we also need to pay attention to what's going to happen to all the other prisons And to make an effect of real culture change there a change of model Irving Phelps, what are your thoughts you've been you've probably got the longest Track record of any outsider. Oh, I don't know that it's longer than than professor millers Brief history. I moved to Buffalo to serve at church in 1999 around this time of year And before the year was out. I had begun volunteering with an organization in western new york called Well today, it's called peace prince ministries But it was called sifis and some of you in the room undoubtedly recognize the name sifis was started by a charismatic man In 1972 it was part of the successful. There were few successful responses to the rebellion, but that was one where Volunteers civilians as we're called would go in to have conversation open ended in purpose not to try to Be experts to train anybody to do anything but to have an open ended conversation about what matters And sometimes a volunteer would be on the hot seat as much as anybody else It might have informed a little bit on the pattern of a tea group or the encounter group that was well known in the 60s and 70s I had 10 years In buffalo before I moved here to new york and in that time was in that conversation Essentially twice a month sometimes three times a month. So I've had lots of experience and I want to hold up one thing That is fitted to my life work, which is I'm interested in the process of an individuals coming to awareness of her freedom That is to say that rather than being reactive and being Stuck in whatever it is. I got to do that. I realize I have some openness and some freedom the Intelligence that the men in attica brought to that kind of a question was extraordinary And so exciting to be part of that I as a pastor on the outside had to admit There are no conversations going on in any church that I know of that have this degree of seriousness About the possibility of inner change Now I hold that up not to praise the prison system god knows But rather just to to say to reaffirm something was said earlier the men Some of them I wouldn't begin to know what fraction of all have changed And so all of this energy of racism that america applies to its men and women in prison is applied out of a fierce Ignorance on the part of white america Which is focused on some animal I'm going to use that ugly word that it has created in its own mind it here being white power structures in america And that crushing attitude we will hurt this dangerous creature Is actually part of this awful process we're in in america I want to hold Pull back to a new york times pair of articles many of you have read no doubt in the last couple of weeks nicolas christoff writes What white people don't get or maybe the title was slightly different you read that? And then deeply unhappily Part two the next week what was so unhappy about it He reports in his second op-ed That the conversation that the correspondence that he got from his first Accounting of what white people don't get was a tidal wave of resistance No, we are not racist. We're nice white people And and they have the problems they are doing if only they would stop This is the issue that That on the one hand Men inside are finding ways to deal seriously With their processes America on the outside is finding very few ways to become conscious of its racism and so I have One of my callings in this life as a white man And sometimes a person who is in a very traditional place of authority Is to bring home to listeners who might be in the movable middle the possibility that they look That we look that I look at my own privilege and racism And open up a space of freedom so that I can shift and you can shift because frankly the Seriousness of the problem we're facing in america with the mass incarceration As it has the new jim crow in michelle alexander's phrase the seriousness of that problem goes all the way down through over 400 years Of behavior and it will not change swiftly. I'll just conclude this remark by pointing out the Sober attitude that anybody trained in systems theory would understand family systems or other systems systems Are structured with all kinds of emotional needs And patterns and they don't just change when a law gets changed But consciousness Consciousness is always the key and so finding means by which Those on the outside have a more profound conversation about racism And about poverty and frankly about militarism the the giant triplets of Martin Luther king's phrase This is this is part of what i'm committed to be involved in But let me pick up on that professor miller Referred earlier to the fact that Among other things places like attica are sort of port barrel projects. They have local economic interest at stake instantly Um, you know, one of the big obstacles in reforming prisons or certainly in closing prisons Is that you have vested interests? But I think there's a larger Obstacle to reforming prisons Uh, which we saw in new york earlier a small example of earlier this year when Governor kawomo proposed us to budget one million dollars A tiny drop in the corrections budget of the state of new york For college programs behind the walls And He was immediately hammered not just by republican mostly by republicans, but not just by republicans I mean democratic lawmakers as well Jumped all over him at the idea that we would you know when their kids can't afford college We would even think of paying for college for You know people who've been convicted of serious crimes And the governor backed down or he backed most of the way down and said that he would try to finance the program with with philanthropic donations that reaction in A relatively liberal state by a relatively liberal governor does not exactly Provide an encouraging message for those who would like to fix the prison system. How do you deal with that? Anyone Welcome to my world. Okay I hate to say this on the videotape, but here you go Um, I had been trying through back channels for over six months to get the governor and the put in the budget Uh, the very thing that he proposed Unfortunately He didn't There was a very easy way to do that Which was go back to the days when tap tuition assistance program was available And you could do that and put that into a change in the education budget and not Cause the uproar that you're going to do by announcing it I was called on a saturday night at 7 30 p.m And told he was announcing it at 9 30 the next morning at a church in albany and I know he's running for reelection, but there are people who agree with him If you maybe reached out to them And had a conversation with them about the strategy for how to accomplish it Maybe there would be a different way to do that So in the end, I think that the what happened was more of a political reaction To the strategic decision making about how to roll it out Rather than the underlying substance However, I can assure you that at the prisons that I've been to that have an education program and every Superintendent who I ask would you want more of them or would you like one if you don't have one? They all say absolutely. Yes Um, the inmates have told me that they get that very reaction from the guards They get taunted by the guards for attending college programs And it's the same thing. I have to pay to send my kin to to cune to suni. Why do you get to get one for free? and so in you know medium security prisons without You know the the culture of attica that pushback still exists I remain hopeful that we will be able to address this problem because it's clear that Education programs are a good for the prisoners B They make the prison safer and as I pointed out to my republican colleagues Who represent where the prisons are do you think they're hiring someone from the upper west side to teach at attica? No, they are not They're hiring local people So if you have a local college that has to hire two or three more people to be able to facilitate this program That's job growth where you live not where I live Um But it's a fight. I will continue to make as long as I'm chair of the committee So um 2% recidivism rate for college educated prisoners. What does that tell you right? I mean clearly it's you know the lifers group at attica just did a forum called education the anti crime They get it. They get it But I think this and actually I did some talks on exactly that that this issue In buffalo and got just this Blowback reaction From people who began again looking at well, what about my kid and what about and and then he's going to have to compete with A job and what he didn't commit a crime and what I think we lose track of is We we have a generation of of of kids now and and you know 30 years of mass incarceration We used to think differently about what it was prisons did Right. So you pay your debt to society you've done something wrong You've done something that hurt society was harmful You get a time out right and then when you come out you are back in that society being a contributor making a contribution Now mass incarceration has you know inculcated this You know Lock the door and throw away the key mentality And I think the the the problem is that we think of it as a zero-sum game Right. We Your gain is my loss We we and in fact, you know, what one of the things I've learned Spending so many so much time in attica is that you know maximum security incarceration like the type that is at attica It damages everyone right people on both sides of those bars, right? So correctional officers are kind of like Co-miners Right, they do the work because it's there, but it harms them right. They have an average life expectancy of 59 years They have high rates of alcoholism domestic violence drug abuse depression suicide PTSD is not uncommon Right. This is not you know, this is not something that makes you know, it's it's not a career that is You know kind of healthy, right people do it because it's work People who are incarcerated Also are damaged in ways that have been detailed earlier. I won't repeat them But you know, certainly by high rates of violence and other things that that make them unhealthy and at risk So it's not a good thing for anyone to grow a big prison system We need to be dealing with things a different way And I think the thing that's most poignant That may help you to kind of will help to encapsulate this this idea of a zero-sum game Is I happen to be at the front desk the front gate at At a coat while the gentleman was walking out in street clothes. He was a prisoner who was being released He was kind of looking around looking for the folks who were going to pick him up drive by and pick him up from the prison and as he Walked past that final barrier, right walked out into the sunlight The guard at the door said i'll keep your cell warm. You'll be back Right, which is uh, you know, that's a sort of very cynical attitude about what the prison system does Um, you know reflected in the statistic or citizen recidivism statistics that it's actually probably true Right well and and certainly without the influence without the ability to become educated to get skills usable skills because what what what passes for skills programs is woefully inadequate to reintegrate Into society as one of my lifers who just got released last week has been telling me I want to drag this back down to the level of politics for a second I mean, you know, it's I think it's true what reverend phelps said that this is deeply rooted in the culture and the psychology of a country and goes back to you know, as michelle alexander and brian stevens and So well articulated brian stevens and describes what we're in is the fourth mass incarceration is the fourth phase of slavery And there's a strong case for that But to be realistic, we're probably not going to make that psychology and culture go away overnight That's the long arc. What can we do in the short run? What what would be Some examples of doable things that could begin to write the process right write the the The culture well, I'm actually Very much in support of the closure of attica at the level of a doable piece of symbolism the Question here is not well, what about all the other evil prisons? That that can't be addressed directly But attica symbolizes something for new york state residents. I remember exactly where I was. I was only 20 years old But I know right where I was when I first learned about the rebellion It's so Reveted me and that's probably true for everybody who was living well a large part of the people who are living in new york state Or and other parts of of the country My point is That a closure as a movement It it might it would take a long time But it would symbolize a a shifting of that movable middle. I'm frankly only interested in the movable middle I don't really love spending all my time talking to the left Because you know the left can wail in certain ways that are satisfying to them or to us to listen to But it didn't change much. I'm really interested in people who Are able to come to a new thought and so the symbol of the closure of that Weird gothic structure. I'm just talking about what it looks like if you see a photo of it And the knowledge that it has this long history now come to 43 years Since the rebellion Could be an element for this state and for others that watch it's just it's a partial answer To the question of where does the shift take place? Which is how i'm listening to your question bill Okay, assemblyman What would be on your short list of things that that might be doable that you could where you could begin to Turn the tide a little Well, I have a lot of bills I have a lot of bills and Some of them could be very helpful um You know one of the problems I was on a panel at john j a couple weeks ago I lose track of where I've been lately, but recently and you know one of the problems in the mass incarceration model is The way our criminal laws are written The way our criminal laws are written with acting and concert, you know somebody who could be you know in queens at this moment and there's a Robbery or a murder that takes place in brooklyn and they could be found guilty of that murder And so what you end up having is a system of culpability that goes beyond what people's individual conduct is specifically also As it relates to the definition of violence So if you become a violent felon in our system that has a whole bunch of attachments to what you're Able to do where they send you what programs you can go to all because something's been defined as violent Even if your individual conduct was not violent at all parole I have a bill in that would eliminate the ability of the parole board to use the What's their term would deprecate the seriousness of the offense Which essentially allows the parole board to resettance people So someone gets a 12 to life and every two years they go before a parole board and say no if we let you out This would deprecate the seriousness of the offense So You get rid of that does that mean that they're going to automatically start releasing more people? No, but they're going to have to come up with a better justification than just throwing a phrase That's currently in the law And the other thing I would say is that Because of the Rockefeller drug reforms. Thank you. Jeff Arbery We have far fewer people who are in prison for drug related offenses And what you have primarily are people who have committed more serious violent offenses and a huge population of the inmates are mentally ill And what our prisons have become are what the mental institutions were when I was a child And we don't address that correctly now We passed a bill a couple of years ago that was signed into law That prohibits docs from putting Seriously mentally ill pill people into solitary. Well, guess what? I was there two days ago. They're not following that rule Okay, they're not following that rule because they simply Recategorize whether or not someone is seriously mentally ill or not When I was a public defender in brooklyn from 87 to 95 I tried a lot of rape cases and here's a shock Every single rape defendant I had was mentally ill Every single one. Okay. So in the end You can't take someone who is diagnosed on the street as manic depressive or schizophrenic Put them in a prison and say always no longer schizophrenic. That just doesn't really work. So I think that there are ways to make some changes That would make some of those things better But they don't address the ultimate problem, which is who goes to jails and this black and brown people and who doesn't go to jails, which is white people and What happens when we put them in these prisons now? I've not yet been god help me to upstate or south port But we have prisons which are built entirely full of solitary confinement units So these are people who like at attic if you get sent to one you could get taken out or down to keep block I don't want to get into that now, but these are places where people spend Years and years and years and years and you know, one of the my claims to fame is I was the only non docs person to speak to willy boski for the last 15 years And you know, he seemed okay I had a very pleasant conversation with him He told me that he thought the ward superintendent was doing a great job and you know clearly You know, he was medicated in some way, but he doesn't leave his cell He's his cell faces a high window so he can see light His cell has a Shower attached to it next to it So when he gets his three showers a week, they open this door electronically He can go in and take a shower and then they close his electronically behind him And he chooses not to see anyone or go out of his cell And I don't for the life of me don't understand how that's constitutional But I leave that to great minds that are not mine to deal with that But in the end, I think there are some mechanisms to To improve some of the conditions improve some of the policies. Um, but they're uphill battles We're gonna pretty soon need to take some questions from the audience I thought I'd try one last question on this panel and whoever wants to Tackle it. We've talked a lot about attica now. We haven't really talked very much today about attica then And in fact, the reality of attica then is still Shrouded to some degree in in mystery the grand jury testimony From the investigation into the into the assault on the prison has never been released And according to the latest judicial rulings probably never will be released Um, but attica Insinuated itself into the culture the popular culture uh in a way that few other Events do I mean Charles Mingus and to paul simon wrote Songs about a gilscott heron It pops up In movies as a kind of slogan in everything from dog day afternoon most famously to maybe more obscurely SpongeBob Squarepants Um, so it it is an event. It's one of those events that that Is lives with us and i'm curious whether you think Beyond attica itself it had an influence on how we deal with prisons More broadly, what is it still does it still in some ways haunt us as we try to make policy about how to deal with mass Incarceration well just for the record. I was nine so I have no recollection of it I do remember kent state a little bit, but I don't remember what attica occurred Um, what I will say to you is that it is a word in our societal vocabulary that equates Um to a horrible place And so i'll be very honest with you. I was afraid when I went to attica I was afraid of what I would see I was afraid of how bad it would be which is probably part of the reason why I was somewhat relieved that it wasn't as bad as the image in my head But having been to 20 of them It still remained as the worst place one could go and And that image and that part of the prison lore Yes, and so I knew from a variety people that if they didn't like you in the doc system They sent you to attica that was your punishment that you were going to attica And so I think that that remains Whether or not that happened because of paul simon or Square bob punch whatever the guys call whatever that is. I don't know but I do think that it remains the pinnacle of what What they're what prisons should not be I I guess if One thing that strikes me about I spend a lot of time on the road going between buffalo and and and the village of attica and you know There I and when I get to the the front gate, you know, it's fascinating is to see people who are turned back For attire violations, right? 70 year old women who are told no that won't do right who are very you know So there's a dollar tree down the I mean there's the dollar general down the road But that's made a business of you know giving people sweats and exactly exactly There's a speed trap Right along exchange street You know and and you know and they make money off of people. I mean this so In the village of attica Is part of attica and you know every time every around this time of year, right the anniversary of the uprising Attica residents of the village of attica are interviewed Many of them still believe that hostages were castrated by Prisoners, I mean that was you know, you know, absolutely It contrary to everything, right? But that I think part of it is you know that the one of the reasons why Attica the the officers at attica continue to have this notion of you know them You know, it's the zero-sum game is you know, you have you have families Cousins as jack was alluding to before Family networks who come in and out off shift all the time dealing with with prisoners and oh, yeah My cousin told me you did this. So, you know, let me jack you up. You know, you can't get away with that I mean, there's there's a way in which The the mentality of attica that's a guard run prison is about Local people not losing face Because if it happens again, it won't be you know a mistake of chance, right? It will be you know, you you know folks from rule white new york are incompetent And and I see that in the attitudes of of officers as they come in just that notion that that that you know us versus them So on a micro level one thing, you know, I believe in leadership from the middle and and allowing people like like the superintendents and the And the the depths to have more ability to kind of Make local rules to change things on an institutional level It makes a world a difference for people who walk in and out the facility. Does it change the bigger Problem no, right, but it makes it so much more Just less traumatic of experience for people to come in and out for for volunteers and and for family members So leading from the middle I think but also Always that there's that the context of attica that's always in the background I'd add a thought here. I don't remember the exact number of incarcerated in 1971, but I believe it was Well under 400,000 I'm seeing a pardon me No, no the whole nation whole nation in Yes, I believe that the number was in the 300,000 area in 1971 for the whole nation And most of you probably know that the number is close to it's over 2 million and close to Two and a half at various times over the last four or five years the point being Whatever else attica was it was the beginning of a terrible terrible storm that is now over with And so it is not the high point of something In terms of the resistance and it's so clear even from this clip that we watched that the The American mind if you will the fear of that that body politic Of the black man was in In uniform, I mean that the people Do in fact express themselves politically and through the force The powers of force that they have both in their police their corrections officers and in our military So it really is a reflection Of the terror of racism That's that's not a new idea But the fact that it has grown so steeply Each decade Since I once wrote a note wrote an article But I can't I haven't studied it. I'm not a I'm not that kind of a scientist observing that the steepest rise in incarceration took place After the fall of the soviet union and just raising a question Since americans are so deeply in need of something to hate Did it create a problem not to have the soviet union as the thing to hate anymore? And was it easier then For the southern strategy reagan and liat water and everybody else Helping george senior Was it easier to turn The energies the negative energies washing up from as long ago as 1971 Into a further Intensification of incarceration which from 1991 up through the early days of the first Decade of this millennium became Just appalling how much incarceration we engaged in Those are some thoughts about how we're connected to 1971 I don't know why I suddenly feel obliged to stick up for ronald reagan, but the the most dramatic increase in incarceration was under bill clinton 1990s, definitely. Yeah Handing it back to the maestro Okay, we're gonna have the rest of our panelists come up so that we can do our q&a. Please Join me in thanking this panel While other panelists are joining us. I want to give you something to think about we have a human right to freedom and liberty And the state has through law the ability to take away your freedom and send you to prison As punishment I repeat Send you to prison as punishment Not for punishment And the type of treatment that people have been subjected to that you've been listening to this afternoon Makes it clear That what is happening to people once they have been Had their liberty taken away as punishment is that they are repeatedly subjected To additional punishment in the form of violence and abuse That is not the law And that is why we're here today And that's why the correctional association's putting on this form and we're calling on all of you to join us And I also want to make it clear and I'm sure our panelists will that we're just starting with attica We know clinton's a problem. We know green is a problem We know there's many other facilities that are a problem But attica is symbolic as some of the panelists noted And so we have to start someplace and everybody in the country remembers the word attica So don't think that we have forgotten those other places We've called on the department of corrections to institute a policy of zero tolerance We can have zero tolerance for children in school. So why don't we have zero tolerance for abuse from guards in the facilities? Okay, uh someone queued up here first question Please just state your name and i'm going to ask And anybody who's seen me moderate q&a before knows very clearly I'm looking for questions Not statements. If you want to be a panelist on our next forum, let us know but we're looking for questions We have our panelists Okay, first question Hi, my name. My name is Carlos Rodriguez. I'm a former inmate just recently released from attica I just like to know um, I just as a collective people in society What can we do to help you guys and help other organizations shut down attica? Oh, I love that question. We didn't even ask you to ask that question Okay, I'm sure there's a few people on the panel who will answer that Okay People in government Actually read your letters It's gonna come as a shock to you. Okay Every week. I know exactly how many letters I got and what the subjects are. Okay partly The perception is Among elected leaders that your concerns don't matter or this subject doesn't matter because you don't communicate that If every single state senator and every single state assembly member were to receive in the next month 10 letters on this subject It would get noticed No one seems to believe me when I say that but it is true And it's and from the perspective of internally My ability to effectuate positive change would be greatly helped if The people I'm trying to convince heard from their constituency that they care about this too That's the simple and easiest thing to do From this meeting for us We at the correctional association also have a few other ideas Additional ones which I would strongly endorse that activism. We're actually going to have a meeting on october 9th At 6 p.m at the correctional association in which we are going to organize people to make a concerted effort to change attica This is not the end but rather just the beginning. We also have several proposals about how they could reduce violence The one thing that hasn't been said today is there are other models even in new york There's a facility called eastern correctional facility, which is a maximum security facility It has some recent problems, but in the past it had greater participation There's a fundamental issue Do you treat people inside as human beings and communicate with them or do you suppress and use violence? There are alternatives I'd want to have just one thing hitchhiking off nick christoff's Discovery if you will that so many white people wrote him and said no no, we're not the problem They are if you're white Hang on to the commitment to bring other white people into the circle of awareness That racism is the driving evil in america do it Just to add on The communities that most are affected by mass incarceration are not really informed or organized And when the community become more informed They become empowered And they can get the letters to O'Donnell and to other legislators and as he said once we hold our legislators Responsible By being informed Then change and power comes into play. We don't empower ourselves We just have this discussion here and we leave it here So when we go back to the community start organizing the people in the community and inform them of what's going on and how they can get involved Just want to add one thing to that. It's no small notion that the correctional association is 170 years old So we have a little bit of um What did you say? Stick to itiveness you might say so I would urge you Join with us because we're committed to making this change And the more people that help us do it the shorter the journey will be to claim victory I'm going to call. I'm sure there's somebody on my right who has a question I want to thank you very much for doing this Um, my question is and as far as the incarceration being penalization I learned recently that the correctional officers have strong unions And I was wondering what's in place as far as having a disciplinary Measure for the correctional officers and attacking the unions in which They're working for uh, why not go after the the higher ups of the unions and put Poverty or complaints in enforcing that? Is there something going to be done in that regard? Anybody on the panel want to um Let's just say that i'm not really popular with the corrections officers union Okay, um, and they sometimes accompany me On tours that I've taken But like I said earlier, I meet with the inmate leadership team privately So there's no one from corrections and no one from my scope of present um Recently, I believe the new newly elected president Ran on the platform. It's us versus them And was elected to be the head of the corrections officers union. So, um The political problem is not for me obviously I represent Upper west side of Manhattan I don't think I have any nice scola members in my district if I do I've not heard from them But I have colleagues who have three or four thousand people Who are in their districts who are nice scola members? And when I went to clinton And we heard exactly how and where the inmates were being beaten My republican colleague who was there believed the inmates too So, um What I the best way to answer that is you'd have to get somebody Either internally or somebody who has a much better relationship with them than I do to lead that fight because they Perceived me as the enemy I'd like to say a brief thing on this Violence happens inside of prison Because there is no accountability And there's no accountability because there are no mechanisms in which the incarcerated population are believed and are powerful So that the disciplinary system is that 96 percent of everybody who's charged with a disciplinary violation are found guilty There's no system that could be that that accurate Similarly, the disciplinary system against staff is just the opposite reverse You never see officers disciplined It is so rare that it makes the news in those towns Where there are hundreds and thousands of these incidents There's almost no discipline of officers And so we have a series of proposals that's going to come out in our in our report soon that will deal with this But it's a very difficult one because it's all biased Essentially, they don't believe the incarcerated population And then their staff has not held accountable first at the facility level And if on the rare occasions when it gets beyond that there's an administrative hearing And most of the people are are are then found not guilty in that level So if you don't have accountability, you're never going to have this curtailed There are things that could be done to try to improve that that system is fundamentally flawed We got one here I just want to add one thing So we can put this in perspective back in about december. I think was 2012 Some guards from attica four of them were indicted because of the brutal beating that they had visited upon A man named george wallace this was History making in new york state before guards to be indicted The response from the rest of the guards at attica was to stage such a serious work slowdown That visits couldn't happen meals didn't happen and they persisted in this to show their solidarity with their brothers Who had been indicted for this brutal beating that they had visited upon this man So when you we think about and talk about the fact that the guards run the prison This is what we're up against. So when you talk about are we going to take on nyscova? It is more than a notion. So you can have the most the Most well-meaning superintendent. He's still up against His staff which regards and he has very little control Over weeding out the bad apples as was shown to us in that and if I may add to that when I was there on thursday And the nyscova representative was in the room I said, why don't you take your bad apples and move them around move them out of c block? You know, whatever else it was and he's the superintendent said very clearly I'm not permitted to do that The the contract requires me to let them bid on their shifts And so I turned to the nyscova guy. I said, well, I guess it's your fault then, right? So in the end that that is part of the problem From a larger perspective, but I was told that those indigate officers are going to trial. I think in november. Is that right? That's the last that I heard. Yeah, okay So, you know, I know we're almost out of time. So what I'd like to do Keep well the lady in charge says keep going. We shout We are here. Okay, then I will not do what I was getting ready to do and I'll take the next question from my left Let me just say something. I want just want to say something really important. We're talking about organizing The ca is now we have a group That's called the advisory council for the prison visiting project And that group is composed of people who formerly incarcerated The family members of those who formerly incarcerated and hopefully as more and more people Realize how they were also impacted Will come into the fold and this is not about meaning to just talk It's about meaning so that we can empower from a more grassroots perspective and do the things that can hold part in the expression On mr. O'Donnell and his colleagues fire to feed to the fire so that things change sorry Hi, I'm Rita heli jensen and I'm editor-in-chief of women's e-news And it's very frustrating to read a nick Kristoff column About this issue that totally excludes women I I know that the correction in society is expanding its vision But from my perspective the role that african-american women play and latinas um in this drama Is profound and the profound silence from the advocates from nick Kristoff On down it is very disturbing. So therefore I'm asking Maybe bill keller To expand the vision if you think it's I don't know if it's under the Agents of what you're doing to include the consequences of massive incarceration onto the black community the women left alone As well as the rising proportion of women being incarcerated. Thank you Nick Kristoff can defend himself. He's pretty good at it. But I I will say I can't think of any columnist writing today who Has been a stauncher advocate of empowering women than nick Kristoff. So he may have Failed to touch that base in in those particular columns, but uh, he's written columns and books in fact co-written with his wife Uh arguing that the world would be a much better place if women had a larger share of power Since you're working on that since you asked about pursuing the subject of criminal justice, I'll take one minute to plug Um the marshal project which is named for their good marshal We are launching in october probably the last half of october We will have a website, but also partnerships with other media organizations. We did our first with the washington post we have one of the works with the new york times and we have a consortium of newspapers radio stations Broadcasters who want to partner with us to look at not just incarceration, but that will be a large part of it but law enforcement the courts and what we generally perceive as the Massive dysfunction of the american criminal justice system And just so that you I'm I'm not sure if you are aware that the correctional association Has three different core projects One of them is the women in prison project the the prison versioning project and the juvenile justice project So please see us afterwards. We can get you involved with our women in prison project We'd love to have you Okay, I'm sure someone to my right has a question Hi, my name is gal george And the assemblyman said that when he went to attica it wasn't as bad as he thought So my question to him and anyone else on the panel is do you think The conduct and the culture that's allowed to exist in attica Has a connection to the violence on inmates that's proliferating throughout the other prisons that he mentioned great medals in the other one Um since it was my statement, I guess I have to defend it Um You know partly maybe that was just what the perception is the first thing I say When I meet the inmate leadership team is is this place safe? That's my first question at every person I go to and at clinton. They almost laughed at me Because they thought it was the most ridiculous thing that I ever heard They then provided me with specific detail about where they're beaten while they're shackled Uh where it occurs. I mean it was such Horroring detail that there was no way it could have been made up Um at attica the they didn't laugh at it They said that there are safer places to be in less safe places to be which led to a conversation about c block And led to a conversation about other behaviors That are clearly inappropriate, but not at that same level I I don't I had never heard the expression You know putting legs and feet on someone until I got to green. So, um, I think that That the previous questioner about the power of niscoba is true And there are bad apples and the bad apples create a rotten barrel in the end My perception was you know, if I had to go to one of them tomorrow I wouldn't want to go to attica, but I would certainly go to attica before I went to clinton and um and when I Met with the superintendent after that conversation I said to him you're going to have to do something about this because I can't come here and hear that And not get a response on what you're doing to fix it So, um, you know, I'm only one guy I can only go to so many prisons a week And I actually have other things to do, you know as an assemblyman, but I'm trying the best I can To turn my attention to it to make sure that the people who want it know that somebody's looking Up till now I've gone to them and they knew I was coming But as a member of the state legislature, my pass allows me Into any state prison or any jail Including rikers island 24 hours a day seven days a week And sometimes soon I'm going to start showing up unannounced um to see I'm glad that you're happy that I have to drive all over the new york state, but uh To see what I see at that time and if I just want to segue one second about rikers Obviously, you know nice goba has nothing to do with rikers and look at the culture at rikers, right? Which is which is as bad or possibly worse? I'm tomorrow. I'm putting out a press release calling on the governor To appoint a special prosecutor because after those two guys were were beaten so horribly that the bronx da couldn't figure out That they were that he should charge someone says to be no one in that system You know is objective enough to look at at least the wyoming county da was willing to indict someone Right the idea that it's happening right here in our backyard Is problematic. So I think that we have to all collectively You know do what we can and in this job I get to show up. So that's what i'm trying to do I I think it's important from the ca standpoint that we say we have pushed uh about attica today Because it is that symbolism, but we in no sense Are suggesting that that's the only difficult place Clinton is very bad. We would agree. We have written an 80 page report about it Green is a horrible place. We're about to issue report about that great meadow has a terrible history and continues to be problematic There are other places that are very bad That does not mean that you don't take action Against one of the places that is a symbol of that violence We do have suggestions about mechanisms that could improve things, but we need to take action october 9th, please um Sometimes when officials come into facilities, you know, um, and they're known to come ahead of time What usually happened at the facility level the superintendent devil security In the staff they prepare the facility before it's arrived So, you know, you're going to get the halls clean You're going to have the guards that have more madness on at that particular time. That's well spoken And a lot of times you're going to meet maybe with a selected group from the um Administrator level not all the time And a lot of times at the facility level many of the men are really afraid to speak out because of retaliation Retaliation is real You know, they don't want to be going to the box or they don't want to get their cell search Or they don't want to get beat up But to mr. Donald credit he's going to go in as he said unannounced And this is when you get to see Actually how the facility is run See when you're going unannounced they can't prepare for you And you'll get to see actually what goes on under the watch of who was on at that particular time So, you know, I applaud you for doing that because not too many people do that. We're always going even pvp We have to coordinate our visits Ahead of time and they know when we come And a lot of times they prepare for us And a lot of times when we went to green I believe the youth there didn't want to speak to us They were so afraid because that's a medium facility and they're about to go home So they said now we don't want to talk to you get away from me You see how frightened people can get because they life and they freedom is on the line So it's a little different at times we've had Grown men in the midst of an interview with us break down Crying because they want to be honest and tell us not only the brutality that they have personally experienced But what they have witnessed happen to other people, but they are so afraid of the retaliation personal beatings or Getting another ticket such that they now can't go home and they may be Close to being released from prison one of the phenomenas that we see frequently Is some of the most horrific beatings are visited upon people who are very close to being released because the guards know that they don't dare Say anything but fear that their release date will be compromised So there's a there's a lot of problems in the system, which is why we need all of you to join us I think we can take Two more questions. Is that good? Okay to my left and then to my right and you know what i'm going to ask I'll ask for both Questioners to pose your question before we have the panel response. So that should help us to stay closer to our time target Okay, my name is carl dicks. I want to start by noting where I was when attica happened I was in leavenworth military penitentiary in the hole where I had been placed For refusing to go to vietnam And because they thought I was trying to organize the prison But I remember exactly what happened and the people in attica standing up and asserting their humanity Is what put me on the path that led me to become a revolutionary today I want to pose a question about a strategic approach to stopping mass incarceration The strategic approach comes off of a month of resistance to mass incarceration That cornell weston myself called a month of varied forms of resistance sermons in religious institutions cultural programs programs on college campuses coordinated nationwide demonstrations through which tens of thousands of people will act in a variety of ways To stop mass incarceration to put a big stop sign up on these horrors and through that Reach to millions more impact and move them some of the middle that our reverend felps talked about And I would I root some of this in what brother mohammed was talking about about the relationship between incarceration The murder of eric garner ferguson And that people have to stop closing their eyes And stand up and do something about it. I'd like the panelists to respond to that strategic approach Thank you. Okay. We have a question to my right Hi, i'm randolph scott mclaughlin the second and You're back. How you doing? Thanks to you again, too. Um, I am From the uh, the counseling psychology kind of standpoint. So In in in this field that i'm part of we don't really focus on the effects of incarceration on the families Much like one of the other questions was posed to the community of how does the impact of incarceration on the women and the children left behind Impact them. Um, so my questions to the panel is given this kind of dehumanization of the inmates and the The fact that the guards really run the prison and can make visitations happen or not happen What do you see as potentially being a way to Involve the family members who are on the outside who could deport their their loved one who's in prison Given the system that they're involved in and how may the existence of a family member in the prison Help humanize the prisoner to the guards that are Dehumanizing them. Okay. Thank you for those two questions panelists Are with family members um In order for someone to come home and they have a family that means they have a foundation Uh, it's it's very important to have family ties. Why are you away? I know it's hard to travel to go see a loved one but writing a letter Um accepting a phone call these little things keep what you would call ties And many family members have a hardship because although they're doing time In a way that those who've done time won't understand Nevertheless, they're suffering and there's there's no There's there's no therapy There's no community group. They can rely on And even at the church level when they have the prison ministries Many family members are scared to acknowledge that they have a loved one that's incarcerated I know that in my community You know, I've I've gone to churches and acts how many family members here have a loved one That's on parole probation or incarcerated and you see them slowly raise their hand Because it's a big hidden secret And once the secret out now we can deal And I deal with them and I explain to them the most important thing From you that your loved one need is just you being there being present You know the package that's all good But that letter knowing that you can receive a letter from your loved one or to hear them on the phone It means so much. It's invaluable and we must understand that That what makes us human our interaction with other human beings Once that's taken away, you know, I tell you you become an introvert You become you become a beast You know, you become that which they're trying to make you So, you know, let's let's I'll never forget about families because My sister told me many years ago. She said your absent is a big void in our home Your voice is not heard Your presence is missed and we don't know how to function without you And it hurt me It hurt me deeply I just want to say, you know, with respect to families, right? Writing letters phone calls Staying in touch with family or everyday acts of resistance as well, right? And they support the women and children who have to cope with the absence of you in the home and and The situation for for women is even worse in many ways, although the focus is on attica So I'll talk more about men. I just want to mention the frp program The family reunion program allows for 72 hours of visitation If they're trailers on it's in all maximum security facilities in some mediums I know there's trailers that I'll be in now But that's an excellent way for families to come. I mean it involves basically living at the prison, right? So That has I mean every family has to weigh How much that's going to affect them and whether that's appropriate for them But it is a way to visit with your loved ones and aunts uncles You know every without That kind of visiting room tension that you're so lucky enough to live in new york I think there are only three states that still have those programs And if I could just add I get about a hundred letters a week And lately a lot of them are about the family reunion program and the fact that Who's ever responsible for approving them in albany the central office has become very reluctant to approve them and actually Sort of make up reasons to say no. So that is something i'm turning my focus to when I get back to work because This is new, but it's a very good program. It's a very effective program And it allows people to feel human in a dehumanizing environment Yeah, just add on the person needs to have religion or God in their lives on a relationship with God The person needs to have education and obviously the person needs to have family support The family support doesn't necessarily necessarily have to come from his biological family. It can be his extended family But that family needs to encourage him to take advantage of what opportunities they are in the in the prison He needs they need to encourage the individual to take advantage of the gb program There's a high literacy rate in new york state prisons. We don't that we don't talk about But there are too many individuals there who cannot be alright And that needs to change I just didn't I didn't want to ignore the other question But very quickly and this is call to action and I think there are many different ways um As if you looked at this audience, I was very pleased to see when we're at our maximum There were a lot of young people here I believe that a reaching out to the campuses I know five is out there who has done a lot of work trying to reach out to the campuses They do relate I think to this notion because it seems so insane That you're taking so many people out of community and locking them up for so long And so I am I've been doing this work for 33 years. I am actually more optimistic now that we can have change I've seen work on solitary confinement that never existed where people are fighting it And I believe we can reach out to other communities because what we're doing is wrong and it has to change On that note, we're going to wrap it up. I think elizabeth is going to phase us out Come on and phase us out elizabeth. Let's have a wonderful round of applause for spiel Thank you. There were three things that I just wanted to sort of highlight and underline Um as I was listening to to this panel One is the large problem that we face in this country of unconscious racism as raised And and it really falls into not only having a prison system that needs to be fixed But indeed we have an entire country that needs to be fixed I think that the prison system is a symptom Of what is going on in this country and one of the reasons that I put up the New york times pieces that I did in the beginning is because I think it identifies That not only are people of color Under um Under siege But in many ways in too many ways. I think we all are Secondly, uh, I wanted to point out um that ronald reagan probably doesn't need defending And um, I'm sorry. You felt the need to defend him And uh that if ronald During it was during the 80s under ronald reagan that the entire infrastructure was put in place Which has created in fact the mass incarceration opportunities and possibilities that we have The fact that it happened in the 90s under bill clinton is unfortunate And the fact that it's continuing under barack obama is even more unfortunate So I just wanted to uh point that out. I want to say that tomorrow Sophia Elijah will be here hosting you and again next saturday And I thank you all for coming and I thank our panelists very much for the work you do