 Okay, we're back, we're live, we're doing, gee, we're doing science today. We're doing science with a company called Shark Band, B-A-N-Z, out of California. We connected with them, especially in view of the shark attack that took place a couple of days ago, over the weekend, I guess. And we have Davis Mercerow, he's from Shark Band, welcome to the show, Davis. Thank you. It's great to be here. Well, it must have struck you in the business, you're in the shark business, as somewhat remarkable about this attack over the weekend with the tourists here on the Big Island. Can you summarize what happened in that attack, as far as you know? Sure. So, as you mentioned, yes, being in the shark business, I get the alerts in my inbox every day for when something takes place, and this was no exception. The incident had taken place off of a small bay on the Big Island where a 65-year-old tourist from California had been actually kayaking, best of my knowledge, and initial reports had said that a black-tipped reef shark had bitten her upper thigh, which means she must have been out of her kayak. A lot of experts in the area are saying it's a tiger shark because of the size of the bite, which was 12 inches, and she was taken to hospital, and she seems to be doing okay, so that's always good news, and I think full recovery, so that's the best that I know the situation. Yeah, but I heard more to that was that she was in the kayak and she saw the shark coming close, circling her, and she panicked, and when she panicked, she tipped over the kayak, and that was the beginning of the problem. The other thing is, I don't know if this means anything, I don't know how big a tiger shark is, but this shark was something like five and a half feet long. Is that the size of a tiger shark? Is that the size of a shark that would make a 12-inch gash like this? It doesn't seem that it correlates to one another, so a juvenile tiger shark could be around that size, but to incur a 12-inch bite, it would have to be a larger shark. I mean, you're talking of a jaw length that's much larger than what a five to six-foot shark would have. My impression up to this point has been that when the shark bites, this is a song out of the pre-penny opera when the shark bites. That one, I don't know. You're too young. When the shark bites, it grabs and shakes, or is it different? I mean, how does the shark create a gash wound like the one in the Big Island? Well, it's different for different species. Related to this one, too, I think it's important to note that there's never been an incident of a black-tip reef shark bite off of the Big Island in this area. So again, we're really more likely dealing with a tiger shark. And tiger sharks are their ambush predators, and they also are a species that will circle around their prey, or oftentimes just to investigate potential prey. So if there's a kayak on the surface, it could look enticing to a large tiger shark, at least it would be curious. And a lot of times what sharks will do is they'll simply go to investigate a situation. And to your question, this will actually make a difference on what type of bite will then occur. So if a shark is simply investigating, which is usually what happens when you have a shark bite incident. So oftentimes we read headlines and it says shark attack. But really what's taken place is a shark bite. A shark attack is very rare, meaning that it's it's an unprovoked incident where a shark is actually hunting someone. It's in an ambush attack mode, and that's rarely the case. A shark, whether they're bull sharks or tiger sharks, oftentimes, or certainly a black-tip reef shark, they're investigating and they don't have hands, so they're going to use their mouth. And so that's why we so often hear the term hit and run attack. Or hit and run bite. And so that's simply a shark coming in, taking a quick bite and then leaving. So rarely what you your question about sort of latching on and shaking, that's something that we often see in videos or scientific experiment or bait videos where you oftentimes have like a tuna fish attached to a rope or something that a shark needs to try and break loose. So that's why they're going to that's why they're going to shake too. So when when the shark bites, however he bites, what sort of is it a is it a gash? Is it a bite of the two smarts? And how deep is it? I mean, you say the woman is going to make a full recovery, but did this go to the bone? Did it break the bone or was it just a question? I mean, I don't know the particulars with the exact particulars regarding her bite. But again, what's very interesting about sharks is that they each species does have different teeth structures. So some teeth are shaped more like a sort of like a saw blade. And they're they can have the reason why they would have that structure is so they can dig in more or they can break fish bones more easily, depending on what their their their fish, their favorite fish food is. You have larger sharks like the Great Whites, for instance, which have more of a shark tooth that's, you know, the sort of classic jaw shark tooth, which is very sort of triangular in nature. And then depending on the size of the species, that strength of their jaw and the force impact is going to be different. In this incident, I'm assuming that she didn't break any bones, but oftentimes you do have that there's incidences here in California where you have great white bites on surviving victims, where sure, they go through the femur, you know, they can I mean, they can sever an entire limb, obviously, which is you had incidences of that in Hawaii with tiger sharks. So you can you can cut it a lot of different ways. Yeah, you cut cut being the operative term. Do they do they travel in packs or or are some bites, some attacks just one shark alone? Yeah, that's a good question. Typically, particularly with a larger species that are apex species like tiger sharks and Great Whites, they're not going to travel so much in packs. But if wherever there's a food source or a reliable food source, you'll certainly have more of a group of sharks there. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're hunting together as we sometimes think of with dinosaurs and other species that are similar to sharks, right, these age old species. And then with smaller sharks, again, the same thing, you'll oftentimes find areas where they're just simply a lot of them there, like reef sharks, for instance. There are way more reef sharks in a particular concentrated area than there would be tiger sharks, for instance, right? It's sort of the same same thing as lions, right? You're not you're going to have a lot of antelope and you're going to have less tigers or apex predators there. Do the do the groups consist of only one species or can there be multiple species, big and little and different, you know, different kinds of sharks in the same group? Yeah, I mean, it's it's really the same principle as sort of the animal kingdom, right? I mean, when you have the ocean ecosystem, right, there there are always going to be groups of different species in in particular areas. So you have areas where there are various whale species. It's the same thing with sharks, right? Different fish. There can be a collection of different fish species all in the same area. It's the same thing with sharks. You know, we've heard of feeding frenzy and we all have heard and I suppose it must be true that blood in the water will will invite a shark and the shark will be following the blood and I'm seeing that as a way to find his his victim. No. Right. Very true. I mean, ultimately, sharks have really keen senses. I think that the one that we hear the most is obviously blood and their sense of smell. So and that is incredibly powerful. But it's important to note that sharks really do rely on all of their senses and different shark species have stronger senses than others. For instance, the hammerhead, if you can imagine it with its the way that its head is structured and its eyes are out towards the side. It doesn't have as good a vision as other shark species that see directly forward. But what the hammerhead does then make up for as a sense is that it uses its electro reception in a in a more in a more powerful way and in a greater frequency. And same thing with vision, you know, sharks have excellent vision. It's just something that we don't oftentimes hear about or focus on as much. Because we're so worried. Yeah. Do we have a cut? You know, when we go in the water, we're so we're so nervous and worried about, you know, is a shark going to approach me? Well, should we be nervous? I mean, it seems to me maybe it's a media question, but it seems to me there's a lot, a lot of shark bites these days, maybe more shark bites than they used to be. Are there more sharks? This is a multiple compound question. But is global warming affecting the number of sharks? Is sea change sea level rise affecting the number? I know there's a lot of questions, but I know you can handle it, Davis. It's a very good question. The the the short answer is, yes, there are more shark attacks and bites than at other times in in history. There's two main reasons for that. One is that the first, we're simply recording them. So we know that there is a steady a steady increase. If you just think about the way that incidences are reported and our communication with one another around the world, we have so much greater ability to connect the dots and see what's happening. As far as actually bites taking place and why, there's really two main reasons behind that. One is climate change. The water temperatures are changing. It's affecting the food sources. Same thing with overfishing, it's affecting the food sources. So sharks are having to change their migration patterns and also, you know, their habitats and their food sources and the areas that they've relied on for food. So oftentimes sharks are staying in areas for longer or coming closer into shore. We have an incident here in the US that's taking place where Cape Cod is experiencing a greater number of great whites. Same thing in California, actually. Again, there's a difference in water temperatures down south and up north than there were 40 years ago. And the other main factor is actually population sizes, both from sharks and from people. There's simply more people now than ever. So that means more people are going in the water. More people have access to the beach. So when you put more people in the water, there's more likely going to be an incident rate occurring. And the second is shark populations. I'll give you an example of great whites because that's what's happened here in California is conservation laws in the 70s helped protect great white populations, which were being hunted and killed or overfished. Same thing in the Northeast in Cape Cod. And those conservation laws then allowed those great white populations to repopulate. And so you have nurseries off the coast of California and down south that have then grown into adults and now they're in the area. They're not targeting people and people are not on or not their food source. But it's going to increase the incidence rate. And that's what we've seen. If you look at at the international shark file or other records, it might get slightly so you can't have a steady increase every year where you can reliably say, well, there was 78 this year and next year it's definitely going to be 85. You know, it might be 79 or it might be 75. But overall, it's a steady linear figure. So I hope I should answer that short enough. That's exactly what I wanted. So is it fair to say that the sharks will follow the water temperature? In other words, are there more bites, more sharks in warmer waters than in colder waters? Are there more bites, you know, in tropical areas than there are in north temperate areas or arctic areas? Great question. I mean, again, it goes back to the previous answer, which is there are more sharks, particularly predatory shark species, meaning those that oftentimes do, you know, are involved in the bite headlines, great whites, tiger sharks, bull sharks. They have a tendency to habitat tropical waters. And same thing for where do people want to go? Well, we're not spring breaking in, you know, Antarctica. You know, the good people are staying on their island. Yeah, right. And everybody else from the mainland is trying to get there. So it's a spring break. That's what happens. Yeah. Yeah, I hope not for y'all's sake, but you certainly see it in Florida. You know, you also said that, you know, these days we have the technology to make surveys and make world maps of where the shark bites are taking place. And that matter where the sharks are swimming. Who does that? What's it like? How accurate is it? And what's the dynamic on the number and geographical location? Yeah, you know, thankfully, there's a lot more organizations and well-funded organizations that are marine science groups than there were 40 years ago. Hopefully we continue to have more. And so they do an excellent job all around the world, whether it's in California or in Hawaii or in Massachusetts or Australia or South Africa of tracking shark populations, getting a better sense of where, how those shark migration patterns are changing. And we're constantly learning new things about sharks from that research. I mean, there was just a video this last two weeks ago where it was the first time researchers had discovered that great whites were willing to actually swim and travel through kelp forests in order to hunt seals. Previously, it had been thought that great whites weren't willing to navigate through kelp forests like it was a safe zone. And while that's only one example and it doesn't necessarily debunk that myth, it certainly shows us that it's not an absolute, which is really what science is all about, you know. And as far as as far as the bites go and tracking those, there's an excellent group out of Florida that's the international shark file attack file, international shark attack file. And they do a really good job of collecting those records and compiling all the data as much as they can gather about the details of shark bites and attacks around the world. But there's still a lot that goes under reported. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm sure we'll as you can imagine over time, you know, with better technology and so forth. But I just I just wonder are sharks, you know, some cultures, they they revere sharks. They don't want to kill them. They don't want to hunt them. Other other cultures, they go out and hunt them and they eat them and take their teeth and sell necklaces. What have you? Sure. But where is it all going? Are where are the sharks migrating to in terms of being a species? What I mean is are they are they going extinct? Are they becoming stronger? Are they becoming more numerous? What do we know about that? Well, I mean, as far as populations go, I think it depends a lot on the geographies and the species that that we're talking about. I mean, sharks as a whole. Their populations are threatened simply because of overfishing and practices like shark finning. I mean, it's estimated that 100 million sharks are killed every year for the purposes of shark finning. And again, just not efficient fishing practices, which is really a staggering number when you think about it. And so over time, that will no doubt lead to population declines in sharks as a category as a whole. Yeah. But there is, you know, a lot more attention on topics like that and conservation and the importance of laws. For instance, just in this past year and two, there's a great organization called Shark Stewards and they've done an incredible job of being able to really impact the legislation on local, municipal and nationwide levels. And there has been legislation changes here in the United States. You know, it has to take place more on state levels and city levels first for nationwide. But to curb, excuse me, practices like shark finning and ensuring and same thing, too, for private businesses. You know, there's there's the airlines, for instance, whether they're commercial freight or boats that, you know, they're not paying so much attention to what their cargo has been in the past as far as sharks are concerned. So are they transporting shark fins? And now you've had companies step up and say, OK, we're going to pledge not to do that anymore. And, you know, all those those things make a difference. And that that has a direct impact on on population, too. There's a conflict of sorts because they're predators. They're predators. They're killers, you know, they affect people's swimming, wound them or worse. They affect tourism because people go into the water and warm in tropical areas and and worry about it. Maybe they don't make the trip. Maybe they make the trip and get hurt. And so, you know, so there's a certain push against sharks, for sure. But on the other hand, you know, from what you say, you're suggesting that aside from the cultural, the positive cultural aspect of trying to save them and the, you know, the long term aspects of avoiding their extinction, what about their role in the ecology? In other words, if I took sharks out of the ecological equation, how would that affect it? Aren't they necessary to call the herds of fish and other life, you know, in the ocean? Don't we need to have them for that purpose? A hundred percent. I mean, they are as vital to the health of the ocean and then thus, you know, the total ecology of the planet as a species simply because they are so prevalent. So you remove them and you you take away such a enormous factor from, you know, the sort of perfect formulas that that earth that earth is in order to maintain its its habitats. And and its waters and without them there, it disrupts the entire food chain. And that obviously disrupts our food chain. Yeah, it affects the health of the oceans. And so I think when you look at ecology, it's important for people to just think of it like in some ways, maybe a puzzle where it's like if you take away a piece, it simply won't be complete. Now, if you take away sharks, which represent many pieces, you're going to be missing a huge chunk. And so how does it how is it going to properly function without those pieces? It's it's it's not going to be complete. And if, you know, to use a more dynamic example, it's like a car, right? If you take away a part, well, the whole thing could fall apart. Yeah. Right. Some some are more important than others. But, you know, ultimately, you know, it can be the smallest part that winds up, you know, yeah, having a car. I mean, you know, exactly. So, Davis, let's turn to let's turn to the company to Sharkman Sharkmans and talk a little about it and you and what you do. And and then your advice to people on how to deal with this. So the first question is how did you how did you, Davis, get involved in this? Is this a situation where you went to school for it? Or did some other some of the process draw you into the subject? Yeah, I mean, I certainly didn't anticipate that I would be in the role that I am or be spending as much time with sharks as I am. My background and why I'm here is that I grew up with the two founders of Sharkmans. We grew up in Charleston, South Carolina together, which is a coastal city. And I've always grown up on the water in different areas, whether it was Charleston or California or Spain or Amsterdam, I've always been on the water. So it's always been very much a part of me. And then the two founders who are father and son, Nathan and David Garrison in 2014, they created Sharkmans, which is the world's first shark deterrent band. And having known Nathan and David for many years, you know, I was excited about the technology. It was totally innovative. It was seeking to address a universal problem. You know, everybody is it's a it's a primal fear we have. We're scared of sharks. And ultimately, it would be an enabler. It would allow, you know, to your question earlier, it would allow more people to enjoy the water more frequently and to hopefully have more respect for the ocean and want to spend more time with it. And then as a byproduct, we've gotten to learn more about sharks, which is obviously huge because the more you know, the less you fear. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Sure. An important point. So can you talk about the technology? What is it? How does it work? Sure. So the science behind Sharkmans is based on the principle that a that strong permanent magnets deter sharks. And the way that that works is that sharks have a very powerful six sense that we as humans obviously don't have. And that's the ability to detect electric fields. It's known as electro reception. And they have these very sensitive oars in their snout. And they, like I said, they detect electric fields and they use them when they're hunting and they use them to navigate the ocean in conjunction with the oars magnetic poles. So if you can imagine a fish tail moving, for instance, a shark would be able to detect that in the water. And what Sharkmans does is that it it creates an electromagnetic field using its magnetic technology. When sharks come into contact with that field, it overwhelms this electric sense that they have. Imagine it being someone shining a bright light in your eyes in a dark room. It's not going to hurt you, but it's going to make you want to turn away. And that's the deterrent effect. And that's what happens. They turn away. Correct. Yes. Wow. It's an active deterrent. You have a patent on this. We do. So we actually worked with the scientists who had originally made the discovery and there are scientific partners in it. And they're the ones with the patent, but we license it exclusively. And so we've been able to apply it in different means and we'll continue to do so. So for now, it's in a band form that can be worn on the wrist or ankle. But in the future, we'll be integrating it more into native surf products and fishing. So more ways to keep people safe, keep sharks safe and keep the puzzle together. So it's electric and you have a battery and can you show it to us again? No, it's actually not electric. So it relies on magnetic technology. And so there's no batteries. There's no charging. It's always on. So it's an active deterrent. And so you simply wear it on your wrist or you can wear it on your ankle, which I won't show you because I'm not that flexible. And that's what makes it such a simple solution. And that was always the goal was how do we create something that is easy for people to understand, easy for them to wear and something that would be comfortable and wouldn't disrupt whatever activity they were doing in the water. So is this within the economic reach of the average person? Or is it only for rich people? No, totally. I mean, it was always one of the principles of the product was to be affordable. So it's currently $84. And it's a very durable product. The technology isn't going to diminish. It's not going to become less effective over your lifetime. And it's very similar to like a surf watch or a high end fitment in terms of the silicone rubber. So it's very comfortable. It's very durable. We designed it to be able to hold up in the most intensive surf conditions or ocean sport activities. Are there a set of circumstances which could actually prevent it from working? Sure. I mean, it's a safety device, right? I mean, that's what we always make sure that people are aware of, is that it's the same thing as a bike light, for instance, or a bike helmet. There's lots of different examples of safety devices I can use, but I'll just use bike lights, for instance, right? So you have a bike light on your bike in order to reduce the risk, right? You don't want to get hit by a car. Then you want to let other bikers know that you're there. So that's essentially what Shark Bands is doing. It's letting sharks know that you're there, but to stay away. It doesn't mean that you should go out into shark infested waters and that you're going to be 100% safe, right? I wouldn't take my bike with its bike lights and jump on the highway. It might help my cause, but it's not smart. Well, you know, I'm wondering if there's a competition or are you the only game in the field here? I recall years ago, guys who went scuba diving around Hawaii would carry these bank sticks. Now, that's not so good for the shark. That would be, it would have a shotgun shell in it, and when it made contact with the shark, we'd blow half the shark away. That was an alternative, though, to protect you. Is there anything else that is competitive with your Shark Bands product? So there's another device on the market that does actually use battery. So it is generating a live electric current in the water. The problem with that is, is that it's very cumbersome. They're expensive. And ultimately, it's just, it's not a common sense solution for everybody. Is it effective? Yes, it will keep sharks away from that electric source, but it's not practical, unfortunately. So if I wanted to get a Shark Bands product, a wristband, or some of the other things you're going to put on the market, where do I get them? Are they available through online stores? Do I have to go to a dive shop or what? Yeah, for sure. A lot of different ways. So we sell them on SharkBands.com, just our website. And then we work with a lot of specialty retail stores. We work with some in Hawaii. We work with three on the Big Island itself, where the latest incident took place, like Kona and Orchidland and Polynesian paddling. And within Hawaii, we also work with high tech. Maui, high tech sports, as well as adventure sports, as well as a number of different independent retailers that we love working with. And same thing, too. You can jump on our website and we have a store locator, so if you want to support your local shop, that's awesome. You can get on and see if they carry them. Just enter your zip code. If they don't carry them, you can tell them to carry them. We always like working with new people who care about their products and their customers. And yeah, we work with, we sell them around the world now. We work with distributors in Australia and South Africa and Japan. We sell them in Europe. So they've really taken hold and they've created a really good following and support base, particularly in Hawaii, where people spend so much time in the water. I mean, we have a lot of really dedicated core Hawaii ocean men, whether they're spear fishermen or surfers who are wearing them. And triathletes. And same thing in California and Florida and in Australia as well, lifeguards, like Harry's Carol, who's on Bondi Rescue. So we've really started to build a good base and an understanding around the technology and an adoption for it. But like I said, it is a safety device, so we're chipping along here. Not everybody wanted to wear a seatbelt when the car first came out. You have everything to gain by having one with you and nothing to lose. So the choice of going in the water with that or going in the water without that seems to be clear. Let me ask you one last question before we run out of time, Davis. And that is, I had the impression that you guys also advise people about how to conduct themselves around sharks, band or no band. And dealing with the possibility of having them go away from you, either striking them or ignoring them or turning your back. I don't know what the right approach is. But can you talk about general behavior conduct to help you save yourself in the face of a shark? Sure. That's a good question. I would say that there's probably two main ways outside of, let's say, shark bands to stay safe if you are around sharks. The first would be don't splash and create a bunch of attention around yourself at the surface. It's only going to bring attention to yourself or make you actually look like wounded prey. I mean, if you think about sharks, they are this evolutionary machine, right? So they are always going to find the path of least resistance. And oftentimes they'll hunt for weaker seals or fish, right? So they're looking for a disruption. They're looking something that's sort of rashing or splashing around in the water. It signals weakness. So don't splash around in the water if there's a bunch of sharks. You know, don't maintain your composure as best possible and try and stay calm. Be aware of your surroundings as best you can. And the other is that if you were actually engaged in a shark attack with a shark species, the best advice would simply be to try and jab at its eyes because that's really the only vulnerable spot that you're going to be able to make an impact on. You don't want to stick your hand towards its mouth, obviously. So the only way you're going to create an impact on a shark that's attacking you is, you know, is its eyes. With your hand, with your fingers. With your hand. And what about the old, the old... I pray that doesn't happen to individuals or listeners of your show. But if they do remember that advice, God bless. Yeah, really. At the moment, it's hard to remember anything. What about the old wives tale of hitting the shark on the snout? That would be above its mouth. Sure. I mean, it's the same, it's the same idea. It's simply something to alert the shark that you're not food or that you're willing to fight back. The risk of that is simply, you know, you can imagine a situation like that taking place if you're trying to hit it on its snout. It can work, but you're just getting your hands closer to its mouth. Yeah, right. If he turns up at you, your hand is right there in his mouth, yeah. Exactly. So that's why I would say another, you know, that's why experts say go for eyes. And hearing stories of shark survivors who have had really, you know, intense encounters with sharks, you know, basically being in the, you know, its jaws is they've been able to escape those circumstances by hitting its eyes. Very interesting and actually a little scary. Definitely a little scary, you know. Don't focus on that part of the experience of being in the water. Worst case scenario. There's a woman who surfs from, I think she's from Kauai. She lost an arm a few years ago, maybe 10 years ago, and she still surfs. Yeah, right, right. Absolutely. Yeah, so I mean, it's possible. A very inspiring individual. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. There is life after. There is life after a shark bite. Thank you, Davis, Mercer, oh, shark pens. It's great to talk to you. Thank you so much for coming on our show. Thank you so much. Yeah, my pleasure. You guys stay safe out there.